Burbin

Yeah the issue is we don’t have any real footage to work with, and if things are only going to be implied then they shouldn’t really be pushed to the forefront. I think Jannah’s line “you started something” already implies there could be other defectors besides her group, it could even be a factor in the FO’s struggle to maintain control, but I don’t think this should be pushed as a major plot point in the movie since we can’t give it the proper payoff it would need.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Burbin said:

And then I assume this message also goes out to the other Final Order ships (since it reaches all the First Order ships across the galaxy), which means the whole civilian fleet would also be shooting down ships full of these newly unbrainwashed troopers, killing them all without a second thought.

Nah, Sith troopers are a different breed entirely. They’ve basically been raised in a religious cult and have only seen the grey skies of Exegol. Whereas FO stormtroopers have seen countless worlds and scenarios that could help them shake off their conditioning.

The movie doesn’t actually explain anything about the random red troopers so this doesn’t really help, also in the First Order briefing where the lady says “we need to increase recruitments”, they’re all talking about the new fleet so I assume she means they need more troops to command this new fleet.

Those are some really cool ideas RL, I would’ve loved to see something like this on the actual film, however I don’t think this would actually work with the material we have available. If things played out the way you put it, then Finn’s plan on Exegol would just lead to the stormtroopers all killing each other instead of Finn actually saving or “leading” anyone, Lando swoops in and saves Finn & Jannah while a ship full of poor unbrainwashed troopers falls into a fiery death.

And then I assume this message also goes out to the other Final Order ships (since it reaches all the First Order ships across the galaxy), which means the whole civilian fleet would also be shooting down ships full of these newly unbrainwashed troopers, killing them all without a second thought.

I think changing it to “stormtroopers are rising up” would be clumsy and out of place, it would take away from the whole point of the movie’s ending about how everyone needs to come together to defeat evil, not just some stormtroopers. I actually think the new Finn/Jannah lines work really well with the ending, Finn talks about how the Force brought them together to help the Resistance, and that’s exactly what happens in the end, everyone comes together to help in the fight, which brings an end to both the emerging threat on Exegol and the First Order’s reign over the galaxy.

Finn’s line and the subsequent montage do fill like a quick way to hand-wave away the First Order conflict from the previous movies, but bringing up some random stormtrooper rebellion that we never see would just add to how rushed it all is.

DZ-330 said:

The problem with that logic lies with Rey thinking Palpatine wants her dead and Palpatine wanting Kylo to kill her the whole movie.

In this edit all the Palpatine lines about not wanting her dead are removed. That is why it seems like we need to add something. That change in character for Palpatine wanting her dead to now choosing her as his target is not clear enough in the edit.

I think it’s rather more clear without that line, the big twist that Palps wanted Rey alive all along makes no sense because he seemingly does everything to put Rey in danger/get her killed, yet somehow all those events lead to Rey getting to Exegol and THAT is supposed to have been all according to his plan somehow.

By removing that line Palp’s plan is actually streamlined, everything up to Ben’s redemption is very straightforward, he wanted Kylo to kill Rey and become the new Emperor just as he said in the beginning. Then from his convo with Pryde we know that this plan was “disrupted” but he’s still scheming something, and we know it involves Rey, who we just saw go full dark mode. I think it’s fine if at this point some hypothetical first time viewer still thinks Palpatine wants Rey dead, Rey also thinks Palpatine wants her dead and she’s going to Exegol to fight him, it’s until she arrives that she learns he wants to be killed by her, and we immediately understand he’s now offering her what he had offered Kylo at the beginning.

To be honest I think the original lines convey all we need to the audience. From the way the movie is structured, we’re not really supposed to know Palpatine’s scheme until Rey confronts him, there’s supposed to be some mistery and tension as she approaches Exegol and goes deeper into the Sith halls. I don’t think we should spell everything out from the get go, the original lines from the Pryde transmision leave things vague but they still comunicate a lot. He tells Pryde Rey will come, but it’s not until she arrives we’re shown they’ve been ordered not to fire, he tells Pryde Leias act was in vain, but it’s not until Rey confronts him we learn he wants Rey to kill him and become heir to the Sith. And the line about Leia already conveys that his plan with Kylo failed.

I really like the line “The Final Order begins”. Since on this version we removed the 6 hour ticking clock this line serves to set the stage for the final battle, where the Sith Fleet is only now begining to mobilize, while they’ve been stationary through the whole movie. It also gives into the idea that Palps is moving his plan forward since Leia “disrupted” his scheme to take over Kylo. I don’t think it should be removed.

And I love these new Finn/Jannah lines from RL, I can’t believe I’m seeing a Finn in this movie that actually feels like he went through TLJ’s character arc.

I don’t think it makes sense for Pryde to take the Supreme Leader title, it’s clear he’s just using the FO resources he has at hand in serving Palpatine & restoring his Empire. The First Order was just the beggining, the first step of Palpatine’s plan, and now it’s assimilated as the Final Order begins. The title of Supreme Leader is no longer at play here, and even if it was, I don’t think Pryde would take it since Palpatine is his “Supreme Leader”, keeping his title of “Allegiant” General makes more sense.

Well in TLJ Finn’s actions inspired Rose and her sister in scenes we also don’t see, I think it’d be a nice parallel to that, he discovers he didn’t just become a hero to the Resistance, but he inadvertently inspired other stormtroopers as well.

Why would Palpatine tell Rey she’s plan B? I don’t think this needs to be spelled out, he tells Pryde “The princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plan, but her foolish act will be in vain” and we already removed “I never wanted you dead” so it’s clear in this version he did mean for Kylo to kill Rey, but he sees an oportunity tu turn Rey instead.

NeverarGreat said:

There may be an issue in that this is the same page Rey shows to Leia when talking about the wayfinder. I doubt most people would catch that but it’d still be pretty obvious. Maybe the ilustration could be put on one of the other pages Rey flips through, but then it’d be weird to have ancient healing techniques right next to Luke’s notes on Exegol.

I personally think mentioning both the texts AND Leia in such a tight space feels too forced, and like, wouldn’t the texts themselves show her how? It’s a neat idea to have Leia be involved, but she’s already very involved in Ben’s redemption as it is, she sacrifices herself to reach out to him, and with the added shot of the medal it’s also implied she had a hand in Ben’s “memory” of Han. I think is fine if the Force Heal is left as a personal moment between Rey and Kylo/Ben, and it gives the ancient knowledge Rey decided to preserve a moment to shine in this film.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

So “life force from me to him” is meant to match Palpy’s: “The life force of your bond. A dyad in the force. Unseen for generations”?

Yeah, I think it’d be neat to tie those two toghether, one gives life, the other takes it. And it condences the original two lines “I just transfered a bit of life. Force energy from me to him.” leaving room to mention the ancient texts. I do feel it’s important that she mentions transfering life, so it’s clear why Ben would die from doing it at the end.

Well the first line already comes from off-screen, we’d just need “Transfered life force from me to him” to match “Force energy from me to him”.

Could we just have it so she only explains to BB-8? Something like “I learned that from the ancient texts. Transfered life force from me to him. You would’ve done the same.” I mentioned earlier how it doesn’t make much sense Rey would feel the need to explain to Poe and Finn, who don’t show much interest in her training, specially since they’re supposed to be in a tense situation (and also I don’t like adding lines the second the mouth leaves the frame, it’s the same reason the Leia lines don’t work for me).

But BB-8 does show interest in her training, he follows Rey around while she trains, and he beeps something about trying to help when she says she’ll earn Luke’s saber one day. We already have him asking Rey what she did so here’s where it makes the most sense to add that exposition. I prefer this power coming from the ancient texts because they were a big deal in TLJ but here they’re never mentioned, other than the scribbles about Exegol Luke apparently put on top of them.

As for Ben being able to do it, I always imagined it’s a result from being a dyad with Rey, “two that are one”, as well as already seeing her execute that power on him. Palpatine also executes an “evil” version of this power by absorbing life force instead of giving it, which makes sense since the Sith spirits would date back to “ancient” times as well.

"Our mother watched helplessly as the democracy she fought so hard to maintain crumbled before her eyes, so Leia decided to follow in her footsteps and watched helplessly as the democracy she fought so hard to maintain crumbled before her eyes. She surrendered her saber to me and left me to deal with Ben Solo’s darkness alone.

Lesson three. Now that she’s gone, Leia is romanticized, deified. But if you strip away the myth and look at her deeds, the legacy of Leia is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris. A thousand generations live in you now, but this is your fight, and honestly you’re better off on your own."

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Burbin said:

We can argue semantics all you want, but the movie is very explicit that Leia is supposed to be training Rey, full stop, I don’t think anyone could watch those opening scenes and come to any other conclusion, she literally calls her Master. And the whole point of that flashback scene is to explain how she could be training Rey, it’s convoluted and messy, but it’s stylistically designed to be that way, and you can’t undo that. Even if you remove being the “last night of her training”, she still needs to have trained enough to be able to teach Rey, otherwise none of it makes sense.

I still believe you’re thinking very black and white, though. It’s either that she learned everything or that she learned nothing at all for you. She could learn the basics, and still be a valuable resource for Rey. But it’s clear Rey is largely doing her own teaching.

It’s true that Leia is not doing much more than overseeing her, but I still think that means she’s under her training, and that’s what their scenes together try to imply, though you’re right that she could’ve learned some basics that would be valuable to Rey without her being a graduation ceremony away from becoming a Jedi Master.

DominicCobb said:

It almost just seems like you’re going in circles poking holes in everything. It’s a flawed script we’re working with here. Nothing is going to be perfect. If you don’t think her son dying is a good explanation either I’m curious then what you think should be the line, if anything.

I’m sorry if my criticism comes off as destructive, but if this was the line that was in the original film, I imagine many would be criticizing it to shreds for the same reasons I’m laying down, I’m just looking at it from that perspective. I also criticized sensing the death of her son for being dumb and advocated for changing it, but at least that gave us a reason for why she never picked up her Jedi training again. “She had sensed the end of her Jedi path” might be vague, but it avoids raising further questions on Leia’s character since it sounds like it’s something out of her control, like the Force was telling her she wasn’t meant to go down that path for whatever reason (similar to the Jedi Council’s hesitance to approve of Anakin’s training in TPM, they didn’t get visions of Order 66 or anything, they just felt something was off). That reason could very well be the role the Resistance would come to play in the ultimate victory, just as you mentioned.

Something like this is what I would suggest:

“There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

“Leia’s saber.”

“She had begun her training as a Jedi. Though she was strong in the Force, Leia told me she sensed her fate lied down a different path. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day, it would be picked up again by someone who would finish her journey.”

We have to remember the point of this scene is 1. to explain how it turns out Leia was a sort-of Jedi but not really, 2. to help lift Rey’s spirits, and 3. to give Rey a cool new lightsaber. Going into specifics about the values of diplomacy, Leia’s mom, and the taxation of trade routes really doesn’t sound like dialogue that would’ve been in the actual film.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Burbin said:

Before this movie we aren’t given any indication Leia was ever anything close to a Jedi, she seemed to be in the same place we left her in RotJ, naturally in tune with the Force without any formal training, her space walk in TLJ is closer to Luke pulling the lightsaber on the Wampa cave, which he did before any real Jedi training. It would’ve been fine if they stuck to that but in TROS she suddenly had all this Jedi training that she chose to never use, so there needs to be a reason for that. The film decided the reason was that if she picked up a lightsaber her son would die, which is ridiculous, so I think there needs to be something equivalent to replace that.

I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why you aren’t okay with reverting back to the idea that she didn’t get much formal training, then? We already shot down your point that then she couldn’t have trained Rey - she didn’t really train her, just mentored her and wanted her to reach the past Jedi instead of her.

We can argue semantics all you want, but the movie is very explicit that Leia is supposed to be training Rey, full stop, I don’t think anyone could watch those opening scenes and come to any other conclusion, she literally calls her Master. And the whole point of that flashback scene is to explain how she could be training Rey, it’s convoluted and messy, but it’s stylistically designed to be that way, and you can’t undo that. Even if you remove being the “last night of her training”, she still needs to have trained enough to be able to teach Rey, otherwise none of it makes sense.

DominicCobb said:

Burbin said:

I mean, yeah, the dialogue doesn’t present it as a failure, but it doesn’t take much to come to that conclusion, why did she pick politics when she would’ve been much more helpful as a Jedi?

Well the idea that a Jedi is much more helpful is not really a point of fact. Seems more like Leia sought out Luke when she realized the Resistance wouldn’t be enough to stop the First Order alone. And even if the Jedi were around, they alone wouldn’t be enough either, they needed the Resistance too, and that came from Leia.

In TFA both the Resistance and First Order believe that Luke’s return alone would change the tide of the battle, even though TLJ does bring this into question, the fact is Leia could’ve done more against the Fist Order as a Jedi than as a senator. The New Republic failed to take action and the Resistance was a last ditch effort to combat this emerging threat.

What good did her diplomacy do to the New Republic that was obliterated two movies ago?

Again this is a decision we already know that Leia has made going on two movies at this point. Unless the issue is with the specific phrasing of “best serve the galaxy,” I don’t see how this line changes anything.

Before this movie we aren’t given any indication Leia was ever anything close to a Jedi, she seemed to be in the same place we left her in RotJ, naturally in tune with the Force without any formal training, her space walk in TLJ is closer to Luke pulling the lightsaber on the Wampa cave, which he did before any real Jedi training. It would’ve been fine if they stuck to that but in TROS she suddenly had all this Jedi training that she chose to never use, so there needs to be a reason for that. The film decided the reason was that if she picked up a lightsaber her son would die, which is ridiculous, so I think there needs to be something equivalent to replace that.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Arguably, leaving it the way it is creates a lot of questions that I had never considered before. Like, if Leia DID fully complete her training (it being the last night of her training when she quit) why didn’t she simply become a Jedi again when it was clear that Luke wasn’t coming back on his own? Ya know, instead of just being another general?

But that’s exactly it, in the original film, she didn’t retake her Jedi path in all these years because she didn’t want to lose her son. This would also work if she sensed she wasn’t allowed by the Force. But if she just chose to focus on politics, then there’s no reason why she wouldn’t pick it back up after she saw the New Republic fail, even if she hadn’t completed her training it would’ve made sense for her to try and pick it back up. And if you make it so she had so little training that she couldn’t continue on her own, then how could she possibly become Rey’s Master? There’s no way to reconcile that.

DominicCobb said:

Burbin said:

This is mostly just an issue with TROS since there was never any indication in the previous films that Leia had been trained as a Jedi, other than the space walk in TLJ and even that’s a stretch.

It would be an interesting angle if Leia’s decision was portrayed as a failure, but this is supposed to be a hopeful scene, “Leia failed the galaxy and doomed us all by choosing a career in politics” doesn’t fit a scene that is supposed to restore Rey’s spirit. To be fair neither does a premonition of death but that’s why we removed that bit.

I don’t think this dialogue really invites you to think of it as a failure, it’s not really saying anything we don’t already know/suspect about her (since TFA really, because we know she must have made that choice after Luke revealed her potential). Which I think is kind of the goal, it’s maybe a bit much to add some Leia lore (with premonitions or something) when there’s not really any time to explore its implications.

I mean, yeah, the dialogue doesn’t present it as a failure, but it doesn’t take much to come to that conclusion, why did she pick politics when she would’ve been much more helpful as a Jedi? What good did her diplomacy do to the New Republic that was obliterated two movies ago? This movie already added Leia lore by having her training with Luke and teaching Rey, I’m just looking for a way this can be nudged so it aligns with what we saw of her before.

This is mostly just an issue with TROS since there was never any indication in the previous films that Leia had been trained as a Jedi, other than the space walk in TLJ and even that’s a stretch.

It would be an interesting angle if Leia’s decision was portrayed as a failure, but this is supposed to be a hopeful scene, “Leia failed the galaxy and doomed us all by choosing a career in politics” doesn’t fit a scene that is supposed to restore Rey’s spirit. To be fair neither does a premonition of death but that’s why we removed that bit.

I think the big issue with Leia choosing politics over being a Jedi is that it comes off as a terribly foolish decision. In the end, diplomacy failed; by the time we meet her in TFA she’s leading an underground militia, and her sole hope lies on Luke’s return to help in the fight. You’d think she would be beating herself up for quitting her training all those years ago, mastery over the Force would’ve been a lot more helpful against the First Order than her diplomatic skills. Moreover, if she had completed her training, she could’ve taught her son herself instead of sending him away, thus preventing the fall of Luke’s temple and even the fall of Ben Solo.

The only reasonable way Leia can be justified in not becoming a Jedi is if she had to, not just because she felt like it. This is what the original does, but in a really dumb way, that’s why we landed on simply having her sense that she was not meant to go down that path. Maybe with this new A.I. we can generate a line that helps this come across better, but I still think this is the idea we need to lean on.

RogueLeader said:

And speaking of tests, I messed around with Poe’s lines a little bit more and came up with a different variation. The AI model was struggling with getting Poe to say “dreadnought cannons”, and the deliveries I managed to get still sound awkward to me. So, I did a version where he says, “and each ship has been upgraded with fleet-killing weapons”. Poe calls the dreadnought a “fleet-killer” due to its cannons in TLJ, and uses the phrase planet-killing in this film. That makes it feel more like something Poe would actually say, and that term gives the audience a clear indication of their power-level. These aren’t planet-killing weapons, but they can destroy any planetary fleet that opposes them.

I still think he should refer to the weapons as “cannons” since that’s what they’re called on the later scenes, the first time they’re referenced in this edit is when Rose says “we think hitting the cannons might ignite the main reactors”, It’d be more effective if these “cannons” are metioned earlier.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Luke sounds absolutely AMAZING. Here is a way we can reintegrate Leia having known about Rey’s struggle with the dark side:
https://youtu.be/70vGJBB7YMQ?si=cK7ZOptoAtGYwtbD

I think this Luke A.I will be really helpful for the Nobody cut, but I agree with Hal that it’s better to leave out the whole “Leia knew (something)” dialogue from the Rey Palpatine cut, trying to use it without her straight up knowing Rey was a Palpatine feels very obtuse.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

And here is a line to give Leia some closure with the Jedi that makes sense in canon:
https://youtu.be/QM-xl2GirK8?si=QiRJpNAiBfeDP8-R
I’m of the opinion that Leia needs to have a very specific reason for abandoning her Jedi path in order for it to be satisfying.

I don’t think Leia deciding to go into politics is a satisfying reason for abandoning her Jedi path on the last night of her training. Sensing that she was not meant to be a Jedi might leave things ambiguous, but the Jedi have always been all about feelings and premonitions, and not following in Luke’s footsteps did lead her down a path that served the galaxy in other ways, perhaps that was the will of the Force. Yes it’s ambiguous but I don’t think there can be a better explanation for Leia not being a Jedi in VII & VIII but suddenly being Rey’s master in IX.

Hal 9000 said:

Fair points, and I tried to minimize throwing in AI stuff that didn’t address existing problems. Leia’s lack of on-point dialogue being one of them, sorta.

What do you think of Poe’s AI lines in the briefing? I hope that to an unsuspecting viewer it would read as ADR that maybe wasn’t a dead match. Like an older movie. Like Star Wars even. Ultimately it serves a more important plot issue we created. And after a while it’s hard for me to guess how it’ll sound to someone who wasn’t agonizing over it in a NLE.

I agree with others that the delivery is a bit off, the A.I voice sounds a bit softer and higher pitched, though like you say the value it serves of reframing the Sith Fleet and introducing the underbelly cannons makes it a worthwile tradeoff. It’d be nice if it could be improved though, and RogueLeader’s tests are looking promising. His new Poe lines sound a lot closer to the original delivery.

Glad to see V3 has released. I gotta say the A.I. voices do feel noticeable to me, though I’ve looked at these scenes way more than most, I’m sure the average viewer wouldn’t pick up on it, and the Kylo lines do sound smoother than the previous sentence mixing.

The one A.I. voice addition I’m not so sure about is Leia. I thought trimming out that whole “it’s what you would do” interaction was a much smarter change, and giving Rey back the lightsaber without a word feels more emotional and personal, Rey understands what she’s saying through her actions alone. It’s odd and unnecessary to have her spell things out from off-screen, and it’s the kind of dialogue we would remove if it was originally in the movie.

I wouldn’t say he’s a “failed clone”, the cloning process was successful, it just can’t contain the Sith spirit. How about “failing clone” instead, to highlight his decaying state, sounds better than “rotting” but conveys the same idea.