Burbin

StarkillerAG said:

Burbin said:

I think the version in the workprint feels too much like –
“What’s the message?”
“It’s two lines from Palpatine.”

But it doesn’t imply that was the whole message. Taking the dialogue in the scene as a whole, it implies that they received some kind of First Order briefing message, of which the Palpatine recording was only part of. I’d say it’s much better than the theatrical version, where the message was basically “Palpatine’s back and he’s got an army of Death Stars, so you’d better hurry!”

Yes I imagine the implication is they get some sort of intel package that includes a recording of Palpatine as proof, as well as the stuff Poe exposition dumps after, but in movie language the recording is the answer to Rey’s question. And it feels like it’s only a couple of lines.

The crowd hearing Palps in any way is definitely better than “somehow palpytone retoned” but I argue the recording goes by a bit too fast, it’s over by the time you realize what’s going on.

I think the version in the workprint feels too much like –
“What’s the message?”
“It’s two lines from Palpatine.”

Hal 9000 said:

So… do people prefer Palpatine’s message here to what’s in the workprint? We get one additional line, but lose the impact of the concluding static immediately preceding the crowd gasping and clamoring. Personally, I prefer what’s currently in the workprint. https://vimeo.com/449495094

I think the impact is even better with the crowd reacting to “The day of victory is at hand”, like they realize there’s an evil scheme that’s approaching soon, which Poe comes to explain afterwards with “He’s been planning his revenge, his followers have been building something for years…” etc.

And like I said the extra line makes it feel more like they’ve been hearing to a longer message, since “the great error is corrected” doesn’t sound like the beginning of a phrase, now it feels like we hear the final words of a longer speech. The speech ends with Palpatine promising their victory approaches = the crowd gasps.

The extra line also gives more breathing room for the audience to understand what’s going on in the scene (a large crowd hearing to a recording of Palpatine), a first time viewer will probably “get it” after the establishing shot & the first line, alongside the gasps of the crowd. Where as the current version feels a bit “blink and you’ll miss it”.

I’m watching through the workprint right now, a couple of thoughts:

I really liked the gray Exegol from workprint 4, it had a very striking look, as it is now it’s hard to notice a difference without a side by side comparison, I think the LUT could be pushed a bit further to capture that drab & decaying feel from the previous workprint. The other new LUTs look great though.

Also I agree Palpatine’s message goes by too quick, it needs more time for the audience to register what’s going on, and also it kinda feels like those two lines are the entire message. This:

Hal 9000 said:

Here, compare this to what’s in the workprint for the message moment: https://vimeo.com/449495094

is a big improvement and fixes both issues.

Octorox said:

I don’t think the Falcon even punches through the ice wall at hyperspeed. To my eyes it looks like it breaks through the wall, then accelerates to light speed after. Lightspeed skipping sounds to me like it’s describing some kind of specific maneuver that doesn’t map cleanly onto anything we see the Falcon do in the remaining chase sequence. Having the reference in there is going to remind me of the cut sequence every time I watch the film.

+1 They clearly jump to lightspeed AFTER they break through the ice, nothing in that moment indicates any special maneuver beyond “I hope the Falcon can break through this ice”.

And I think “you blew both sub-alternators?” is enough techno babble for that scene, “lightspeed skipping” sounds like something bigger than random babble, and it’s jarring to drop that in with no further reference. Removing any reference works much better and that tiny interaction between Rey & Finn is not worth it.

FWIW I really prefer the edited version, it’s really not jarring to think Finn would walk over while Rey & Poe talk. I mean they need to deliver the message asap, the edited version flows better. Losing the hug is a worthwhile cut to remove the pointless ramblings of lightspeed skipping, wich are way more jarring without any setup.

Broom Kid said:

Usually, if Williams wrote music for a scene, it’s probably best to stick with what he wrote for that scene, or use nothing at all.

Thing is Williams wrote for a scene of Rey standing menacingly.

Now we have the triumphant return of Obi-Wan & Anakin. And having Luke & Obi-Wan in the scene burning homestead even works as a callback to Luke’s own embrace of the Force as well bringing both journeys full circle.

Palpatine gets incinerated like Uncle Owen & Aunt Beru and the Sith Eternal are like the Jawas dying collaterally.

What’s the issue with burning homestead again? It’s a nice callback to the first time Rey embraces the Force, the scene itself mirrors the moment on Starkiller Base. Even if the force theme is overused I don’t think anything would work better for that moment given the context, and I think such an epic scene (jonh’s force ghosts version) definitely needs epic music.

I do agree the moment after is awkward with the music swelling as rocks crush faceless robed guys and General Pryde blows up.

JakeRyan17 said:

Hal 9000 said:

Just like TLJ!

Everything in TLJ had foundation in TFA. Luke’s characterisation was hinted at in TFA, Rey searching for a connection desperately, etc. There was nothing that came about as fact in a major story development beat that affected who the characters were that was ignored or retconned.

I believe he meant Kylo recedes to his status in TLJ of trying to overthrow the big baddie and take his place while doing his bidding, instead of actually moving forward and acting like a “Supreme Leader”.

omnimuffin said:

Burbin said:

• Kylo frees himself of the oppression of his Master Snoke, except now he just works for another evil mastermind.

I do feel compelled to point out that Kylo makes it abundantly clear that he’s just using Palpatine for his resources and will almost certainly betray him at the first available opportunity.

Hal 9000 said:

Just like TLJ!

StarkillerAG said:

Hal 9000 said:

We’ve certainly augmented a few things in light of TLJ, but I do not share the appraisal of TROS ignoring TLJ. It clearly wanted to retcon some stuff, though.

Yeah, that’s what I’ve been saying. TROS didn’t just “ignore” TLJ like so many people are saying, there were several references to the events throughout the movie:

• The plot as a whole is only facilitated by Snoke and Luke being dead.
• The Skywalker saber has clearly been taped together after it was broken in TLJ.
• When Kylo has his vision, it plays some audio of Luke saying “Ben, no!” from TLJ.
• Kylo can’t rebuild his helmet if it was never broken in the first place.
• When Kylo talks to Rey on Passana, he says, “I offered you my hand once.”
• When Kylo reveals the truth about Rey, he explicitly compares it to his earlier revelation about Rey’s junk trader parents.
• Hux being the spy makes no sense without Kylo treating him like trash in TLJ.
• When Rey heals Kylo, she responds to Kylo’s earlier statement, saying “I did want to take your hand.”
• When Luke talks to Rey, he mentions the lesson he learned in TLJ, that it’s wrong to run away from your troubles.
• When the Resistance is planning their attack, one of them mentions “Holdo manuevers”.

And that’s just the stuff I remember off the top of my head. Point is, someone who skipped TLJ and went straight from TFA to TROS would be hopelessly confused.

Of course they couldn’t just ignore continuity and have Snoke and Luke be alive and such, but it basically does everything in it’s power to retcon everything TLJ set up.

• Kylo frees himself of the oppression of his Master Snoke, except now he just works for another evil mastermind.

• Rey has lost her Master Luke, the only one who could “show her her place in all of this”, except now Leia can suddenly train her when that was never considered.

• Kylo destroys his helmet and let’s go of the past, except he still worships Vader’s helmet and puts his own helmet back together.

• Rey was nobody, she had no part in this story, except she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter and her parents were killed by an assassin Luke and Lando chased across the galaxy.

• The Skywalker saber has been split in half, except it was fixed off screen, it works perfectly fine and the previous damage is never mentioned.

• The Holdo maneuver is a one in a million, Rose… etc. etc. etc.

“Strike me down in anger and I’ll always be with you, just like your father.”

It’s clear to me he meant that Kylo would be haunted by his evil actions (for which the new vision scene works great) not that he would literally come back as a spooky ghost to haunt him, even if that was a thing in DotF.

Luke doesn’t even let him strike him down, it was just a warning that the path he was holding to would just bring him more pain.

In the last few frames of the Naboo shot the smoke puffs rise above the Star Destroyer and show a bit of the sky which reveals the nature of the smoke as 2D textures in a game. I wonder if someone with the technical skills could add some extra smoke behind that trails off the Star Destroyer.

Hal 9000 said:

FWIW, I think it’s just a tad abrupt cutting out Poe’s line about 3PO’s volume control, so I’m going to just leave it alone.

Understandable. I wonder if Poe’s line could be altered is some way, but I’m not much more than an interpreter and not very knowledgeable about such things.

It would’ve been interesting if the cultists had used Snoke’s body as the final piece needed to bring back Palpatine, it would’ve directly tied his return as a result from the events in the last movie. Pryde could’ve sent it, secretly conspiring for Palpatine to take over. Imagine Kylo finding the corpse of his former Master, tied to a machine and speaking in the voice of the Emperor. And then once he absorbs the power of the dyad he morphs into Ian McDiarmid, similar to his transformation in RotS.

Personally I was intrigued to see the Emperor return after the first teaser. To see him achieve the power to cheat death. And the actual way he’s brought back is a really interesting concept.

I mean think about it, 30 years after his death and the fall of the Empire, a group of Sith cultists, hidden on an uncharted planet, finally manage to perform a twisted dark side ritual that allows him to come back and possess a decaying body.

He wakes up to find a raging war between two new factions. The First Order see him as a threat to their power, and the Resistance obviously can’t allow him to return…

To me the thing that totally ruined his return is that they decided to connect him to Snoke, Kylo and the First Order, the idea that he’s “been out there all this time, pulling the strings”. It hurts the ending of RotJ because it implies Palpatine immediately went into concocting a plan to override our heroes’ victory. He’s the one that turns Ben to the dark side, he’s the one that creates the First Order, and our heroes are completely oblivious to the fact Palpatine’s behind it all!

Most people point to the fact he wasn’t set up at all in the first two films, but the truth is he didn’t need to. If Snoke had a completely separate story to the cultists on Exegol, making him the main perpetrator of everything that transpired after the fall of the Empire. If Palpatine had been completely out of the picture for 30 years, his return wouldn’t actually need previous setup. It would have elevated the stakes as a third faction rises from the shadows. Instead as it stands now, it only undermines the previous two films, since Snoke stood as the big bad evil perpetrating everything. His eerie mystery in TFA, his power and manipulation in TLJ. The man who built the First Order, who turned Ben to the dark side, who orders the destruction of the New Republic, reduced to a mere puppet with no agency in the story at all.

And then there’s “Rey Palpatine”, which I don’t even need to get into, ugh.

The point is Palpatine should’ve been treated as a new threat, instead of bending (and breaking) the story to insert him into everything that transpired in the previous films.

Would you consider cutting Poe’s line “Did we ever find his volume control?”. I think 3PO’s new line about an R2 unit works better on it’s own and we’d have one less moment of Poe treating 3PO like trash (specially odd after he just sacrificed himself). Just cut to Finn & Jannah before Poe starts talking.

Honestly it’s bizarre how Poe treats 3PO & D-O compared to his relation to BB-8 in the previous films.

You could add the shot of the saber splitting in half to Rey’s vision as a reminder/explanation to the audience.

Maz Kanata says: “to reach her son will take all the strength she has left”. So it’s clear Leia wasn’t coming out of it alive. Rey didn’t kill her.

She feels ashamed that in her rage she didn’t hesitate to kill Kylo, while Leia was still trying to bring back Ben. She’s reminded she tried to bring him back herself, which is why she tells him “I did want to take your hand, Ben’s hand”. Rey feels she’s lost control which is why she goes on exile.

szopman said:

Burbin said:

Hal 9000 said:

And the PT and OT each have a movie with no capital letters in their crawl. Same goes for my edits of them.

Burbin said:

Fair enough, it works either way.

I’ve been working on the subtitles and I gotta say, it still feels off to not have the words “First Order” and “Resistance” be capitalized on the crawl, since they were on both TFA & TLJ. On TFA “FIRST ORDER”, “NEW REPUBLIC” & “RESISTANCE” are capitalized. On TLJ, since the republic is gone, it’s only “FIRST ORDER” & “RESISTANCE”. Then TRoS goes waaay too far, capitalizing “EMPEROR PALPATINE”, “GENERAL LEIA ORGANA”, “REY”, “FIRST ORDER” & “KYLO REN”.

But it would make sense to go back to the way it is in the previous two, it would feel more cohesive, specially since they would work really well with the current crawl: “The tyrannical FIRST ORDER has retaliated” & “to unite the disparate worlds in the name of RESISTANCE.” I think it would be better to keep it consistent amongst this trilogy, rather than looking for a pattern from the previous films.

On a different note, I also think it feels wrong to name drop Mustafar on the crawl, since it only appears for two minutes and is mostly irrelevant to the main plot. The scene is meant to imply Kylo has been scouring the galaxy for a way to reach Exegol. Some previous unseen search (across however many planets) has lead him to the wayfinder on Mustafar. Which is just another stop on his quest for Exegol. Similar to how Rey’s quest leads her to Pasaana, Kijimi & Endor. The way the crawl is right now it sounds like Kylo only went to Mustafar, the original crawl’s description of Kylo “raging in search” made it more clear he was on a larger quest than just a one-two stop.

We all wish Mustafar had more screen time, and there were several attempts to extend the sequence. As it stands right now it works well enough as a small cameo (it would be great to get Fortress Vader in the background, to make it clear it is THE lava planet), but it doesn’t make sense to put it in the crawl, given how it’s really not important.

These two points would really help the crawl feel legit I think.

Can you send them to me once they are finished? I wanted to do Polish and Spanish translations 😉

I’m working off of the latest workprint so they’ll need to be resynced once further changes are added in. When the final sync is done I’ll send them to Hal and hopefully he can add them to his Google Drive. 😃

I’m sorry if I came off too strong, I like the current crawl, I’m only voicing my opinion on what could possibly improve it.

Even if you need to mention Mustafar, I think it could be worded better to imply Kylo has been doing more in search of Exegol before the attack on Mustafar. When we see him on the surface killing everyone he seems to be in a manic state, as if he’s been chasing this phantom for a while now. I feel that’s how it worked in the original crawl since it said Kylo “rages in search of the phantom Emperor”.

Hal 9000 said:

The crawl doesn’t need capital letters. In the OT, the Death Star is capitalized in ANH, and not in the other two. I don’t think the same words are ever capitalized twice until we get to TLJ. To capitalize the same two words/terms a third time in a row feels very unnecessary to me.

And I think it’s fine to name drop Mustafar, as it lets us see that the two Wayfinder were in possession of the two Sith. If the name doesn’t mean anything to the viewer, that’s fine. It’s just the first spot we see I. Kylo’s search. It would’ve helped first time viewer ‘me’ take in that scene.

Both mentions refer to the first Death Star, it wouldn’t make sense to capitalize it since it was already blown up. I just feel capital words fit, this isn’t ESB, the crawl feels kinda plain for the bombastic adventure we’re about to experience.

And I think name dropping Mustafar feels too crass & fan-edited, it works better as something for the fans to recognize (again, a glimpse of Fortress Vader would help in that) or to put two and two together on repeat viewings. In the context of the movie it’s just some planet where Kylo finds the wayfinder and is never seen or spoken of again. Learning the name in the crawl doesn’t really do much, besides fan service. TLJ doesn’t tell us the First Order speeds towards D’Qar. I think the crawl should focus on Kylo being on a search that took him to Mustafar, as it was originally implied, since the opening sequence is supposed to imply more than just “Kylo decided to go to Mustafar”.

The crawl is supposed to catch us up to speed on the important things we’ll see in the movie. Losing the important detail that Kylo Ren has been on a quest to find Exegol only to clarify that the lava planet is Mustafar is not a worthwhile trade in my opinion. And it could create the wrong expectations of it’s importance in the story.

Hal 9000 said:

And the PT and OT each have a movie with no capital letters in their crawl. Same goes for my edits of them.

Burbin said:

Fair enough, it works either way.

I’ve been working on the subtitles and I gotta say, it still feels off to not have the words “First Order” and “Resistance” be capitalized on the crawl, since they were on both TFA & TLJ. On TFA “FIRST ORDER”, “NEW REPUBLIC” & “RESISTANCE” are capitalized. On TLJ, since the republic is gone, it’s only “FIRST ORDER” & “RESISTANCE”. Then TRoS goes waaay too far, capitalizing “EMPEROR PALPATINE”, “GENERAL LEIA ORGANA”, “REY”, “FIRST ORDER” & “KYLO REN”.

But it would make sense to go back to the way it is in the previous two, it would feel more cohesive, specially since they would work really well with the current crawl: “The tyrannical FIRST ORDER has retaliated” & “to unite the disparate worlds in the name of RESISTANCE.” I think it would be better to keep it consistent amongst this trilogy, rather than looking for a pattern from the previous films.

On a different note, I also think it feels wrong to name drop Mustafar on the crawl, since it only appears for two minutes and is mostly irrelevant to the main plot. The scene is meant to imply Kylo has been scouring the galaxy for a way to reach Exegol. Some previous unseen search (across however many planets) has lead him to the wayfinder on Mustafar. Which is just another stop on his quest for Exegol. Similar to how Rey’s quest leads her to Pasaana, Kijimi & Endor. The way the crawl is right now it sounds like Kylo only went to Mustafar, the original crawl’s description of Kylo “raging in search” made it more clear he was on a larger quest than just a one-two stop.

We all wish Mustafar had more screen time, and there were several attempts to extend the sequence. As it stands right now it works well enough as a small cameo (it would be great to get Fortress Vader in the background, to make it clear it is THE lava planet), but it doesn’t make sense to put it in the crawl, given how it’s really not important.

These two points would really help the crawl feel legit I think.

Hal 9000 said:

And the PT and OT each have a movie with no capital letters in their crawl. Same goes for my edits of them.

Fair enough, it works either way.

I agree that random trooper flying through the air is pretty goofy & goes on for way too long. Reminds me of R2 spilling oil on those super battle droids & setting them on fire.

I just watched the new workprint, I love the new colors on Passana & Exegol, the drab grays really make it feel desolate & evil. However, jonh’s ghosts now become gray at their darkest points, specially Obi-Wan & Anakin on the initial close-ups. Seems a bit off to me.

Also I agree it feels weird to not have at least one or two CAPITAL words on the crawl when the previous films in the trilogy have them.

I get that Rey supposedly force healed the kyber crystal. But as it stands right now there’s nothing in the actual movie that references that the kyber crystal is broken or that it can be healed. So to the average viewer it would just be confusing to see the saber go back to normal.

The last time we saw it it was split in half, so we can have it jitter with no further explanation. But if it changes partway through the movie then it would need an explanation, and we would be falling into the same problem the movie already has of explaining things with external sources instead of in the actual movie.

Edit: The moment I would have it be whole again would be when Rey crosses the lightsabers, since it could be inferred that it’s taking energy from Leia’s saber, and it would add punch to that climactic moment.