Burbin

sherlockpotter said:

Then, for that Kylo scene, get rid of the entire ADR conversation with Palps. It’s all useless, repetitive dialogue that really doesn’t progress the story at all, so who cares about that.

I think the moment the scene is placed in V1 it helps keep Palpatine as a looming threat (where in the original he just kinda vanishes for the first half of the film), and it sets up a bunch of things: Palpatine immediately starts suspecting Kylo wants to betray him, and Kylo deflects the question, which helps with the new direction we’re taking Kylo where he doesn’t want to “take the throne” and inherit the Sith legacy. Palpatine also immediatley threatens Kylo with turning the Sith fleet against him which helps explain why he’s “working for him” despite the conflicting interests.

And his answer “I know where she’s going, she’ll never be a Jedi” also builds on (and helps spell out) Rey’s struggle in the film, and it sets up their confrontation on the DSII. With the original placement of the scene the setup and payoff were pretty much immediate (or reversed in the case of the “betray Palpatine” reveal), now it’s set up early and paid off across the latter part of the film. So I think it’s a pretty useful scene.

Personally not a fan of the “voices”. The film offers a simple explanation: the spirits of the Sith live inside Palpatine, that’s it. It’s fine that this concept is only introduced in this film because it just builds on Palpatine’s character of pure evil, I wouldn’t want to overcomplicate things, it would be retroactively odd to never see or hear anything like that from Palpatine anywhere else before. Maybe it could work to replicate the raspy voice from ep. III as a callback(though I don’t think it’s necessary), but not anything as excessive as a legion of voices.

I don’t like the parallel to the Jedi voices, it basically puts them on equal ground, where I feel it works better to imply the Sith are essentially trapped inside Palpatine as a hive mind whereas the Jedi are free individuals who each have their own free will and literally stand on their own.

And there’s also the issue of muddling things even more, firstly with the opening scene where Palpatine speaks in the voices of Vader and Snoke, despite neither of them being part of the Sith conglomerate, and secondly with the whispering dagger, which I think should stand as it’s own separate dark side thing, and not imply Palpatine is literally guiding Rey around, specially since Hal has removed the “I never wanted you dead” angle and the film is already stuffed with “Palpatine was behind it all” elements. Just my two cents on the matter…

With the current placement it seems like she’s just looking over but then she stops when she hears “Skywalker”.

Burbin said:

The close-up shot of the children looking over is a bit awkward since they look to the right, but the following action of the puppets is on the left (the walker winding up the fire), I looked at the original scene and noticed you reversed that shot, but I think now it makes more sense to leave it with the children looking left at the walker that’s about to shoot.

Here’s a quick mockup with the shot unreversed, so you guys can judge: https://vimeo.com/554532367

I think it flows nicer, it feels like the children go from looking at the alien guy over to the puppet action, and also it matches the following shot of them laughing.

The close-up shot of the children looking over is a bit awkward since they look to the right, but the following action of the puppets is on the left (the walker winding up the fire), I looked at the original scene and noticed you reversed that shot, but I think now it makes more sense to leave it with the children looking left at the walker that’s about to shoot.

RogueLeader said:

https://streamable.com/h1f3ot

The puppet show turned out amazing! I love the tusks and claws on the walker, and I love how the childen looking back and forth makes the interaction of the puppets feel seamless. I’m curious to see how it could be extended but I think it works perfectly fine as is.

It’s a subtle (and wonderful) nod to TLJ but we should be careful not to put too much emphasis on it, since it could end up taking emphasis away from the children, which are an important part of the scene. Also I think the laughs of the children should be a bit louder to match the volume of the alien speech, that would help blend the two elements together.

Also I really like changing Kylo’s line to “we can stop Palpatine” -

sherlockpotter said:

So I made a quick mockup. Is it worth trying to iron out the new line? https://streamable.com/4tms6i

It actually makes it sound like Kylo is against him, against the Sith (which is what we want). We’re told killing Palpatine results in Sith spirit transfer, and we learn later Palpatine wants to be killed, so saying “we’ll kill him” doesn’t explicitly mean he’s working against him. Changing this line would avoid any confusion, it makes it very clear Kylo doesn’t want to play into Palpatine’s hands, he wants to stop whatever he’s planning (and take over his fleet).

It’s also a more seductive way to present it to Rey, who set out on her mission “to stop what we both know is coming…”. It makes it sound almost reasonable to join forces with the Supreme Leader to stop the return of the Sith, instead of the original’s “let’s become super evil together, you know what you need to do”.

sade1212 said:

The problem with leaving in “I am all the Sith!” is that Rey’s new “I’m a Jedi!” response has to specifically be to Sheevie’s “a SCAVENGER GIRL is no match for the power in me!” statement, right? (edit: just as the poster above said!) Perhaps swapping Palpatine’s lines would work. Here’s a crude mockup of that idea (forgive the unpolished audio and lack of ghosts).

I’ll add to the chorus that I think this one works great! The reordering of the lines flows perfectly. My only concern with changing this line before was that the “all the Jedi” line is tied to the theme of “coming together”, however with the phantom four I guess it’s fine if this is actually shown rather than told, Palpatine says he is all the Sith yet he stands alone, Rey only says she is a Jedi yet all the Jedi stand figuratively and literally behind her. I think it works and it’s worth it just to remove that Endgame “I am Ironman” moment, plus Rey feeling worthy of calling herself a Jedi is a nicer and more explicit payoff to her struggle in the film.

I agree it’s also better to remove Kylo’s interest in the throne, and it makes for a much more tempting offer to Rey if it’s more like “join me and together we will destroy the Sith!”. Like Jar Jar says it’s more in line with TLJ Kylo, we already see in the board room scene that his main interest is gaining more power to build up his empire, so it works to steer his motivation in that angle, still wanting to end the old things (the Sith, the Jedi). He just wants to take Palpatine’s resources and he still wants Rey by his side. When he offers his hand to Rey in the hangar it would actually be a lot more similar to his ploy in TLJ.

This way these lines in Pasaana: “Serving another Master?” “No, I have other plans.” would actually be meaningful, he even refers to offering his hand to Rey afterwards.

Remember that the final conflict in the film is Rey alone being tempted to take the throne, while Ben has already had his redemption. So her vision of “Kylo and me on the Throne” would’ve already been negated the moment Kylo turns to the light. It makes so much more sense for Rey’s vision to only be about herself on the throne, then by the end it would actually seem like the vision might become reality.

I think the entire first two finished and released chapters of the trilogy are more relevant than Lucas’ original ST ideas when discussing the merits and failings of the third chapter in said trilogy. Palpatine’s return was not setup and doesn’t contribute to anything in the story that was build up through TFA and TLJ, he was not relevant at all and the Sith were intentionally left behind aswell. However their importance in TRoS cannot and should not be downplayed so I’ve been mostly discussing for the best implementation of Palpatine possible in the film, to which I think keeping the “all the Sith” aspect is essential. If anything I think it works to heighten the spirit transfer/clone bodies stuff to show how his body and mind are separate.

Yeah the Sith themselves we’re done for in the story, they went out of their way to make Snoke and Kylo not be Sith, only to make this last installment all about Jedi vs Sith again, their idea of “breaking the cycle” was basically to glue it back together first.

I just mean that the sheer power of the Sith spirits makes it more plausible he could survive being thrown down a shaft and blowing up, it’s a revelation that he’s even more powerful than we knew, so we can digest that he could come back after we thought he was defeated.

Also the idea is the spirts of the Sith were transfered to him when he killed Plagueis, it builds on the idea of the Rule of Two and the fact the apprentice is always trying to overtake his Master, revealing that this actually passes down their essence, building up their power through the generations, it’s so unnatural, selfish, and right in line with the Sith. It adds a new layer to the character in the previous movies and it’s in line with the “pure evil” persona Palpatine was always seen as. And as I said it gives a much needed finality to the final film in the saga to have the Jedi banish the Sith once and for all.

When I say it’s the only thing that justifies Palpatine’s return in this trilogy, I mean that the character had no reason to appear, he had absolutely no part in the story that this trilogy had told so far. Making his character “The Sith” at least plays into the broader conflict that spans way back than even the prequels and makes it feel like a deifinive conclusion.

Personally I find “All the Sith” to be one of the few interesting concepts this film has going for it, and the only thing that justifies Palpatine’s return in this trilogy. Him being a conglomerate of powerful evil spirits makes the idea that he can just come back from the dead more digestible, and having the ultimate final threat be the living manifestation of the Sith being banished by the spirits of the Jedi is atleast enough to give this movie the feeling of a saga wide finale, instead of just being that one old guy from the other movies that has nothing to do with this trilogy being shoehorned in at the last second (I mean he still is, but this explanation at least justifies his inclusion in a more meaningful way).

Losing this aspect of the film would make Palpatine’s return unbearable for me, I’m not being hyperbolic. I don’t mind that it doesn’t gel perfectly with ‘Rey Palpatine’, it’s not really a plot hole, just two ideas that don’t match completely well but don’t necessairly need to.

By the way I also think that Rey striking Finn with lightning is too overkill, she’s supposed to be pushing him away to keep him out of it, but ends up hurling him by pushing with great force, I think that’s enough to show she’s lost control. At that point Rey is supposed to believe she’s doing the righteous thing by fighting Kylo, trying to prove him wrong by refusing to join him, not realizing her frenzied state is proving the opposite until Leia’s sacrifice makes her snap out of it. I think literally electrocuting Finn with a bolt of lightning would be enough to make her snap out of it in a similar manner.

As for Palpatine’s lines, as it stands now he’s already pushing for that deceit that Rey will inherit his power, when he says “only you have the power to help them” he’s saying only she can take over him, inheriting his physical power AND the power of his position: it will give her his power to command the fleet, which would be the quickest way of saving her friends who are currently being shot down by said fleet.

Of course it’s all a lie, as the spirits of all the Sith would overtake her. I do like this concept of “All the Sith”, Palpatine has always been the representation of pure evil, and this explanation actually builds upon his character. It’s interesting to think we never got to see whoever Palpatine truly was before killing Plagueis, as it turns out the Palpatine we saw in the prequels was always a conglomerate of every Sith that was able to overtake his Master. Of course in classic TRoS fashion, this concept contradicts the idea that Rey’s power stems form being Palpatine’s grandaughter, since Palpatine’s power is not genetic or even physical at all, unless his offspring was somehow able to inherit the genes of every spirit in his body, and that’s not even including the mess of making his son a clone. This parental relation is also the reason they need to have everyone call him “Palpatine” instead of Darth Sidious (which Luke called him in TLJ) muddling the concept further. It would make more sense for him to use his Sith name instead of the name of the person that was overtaken by all the Sith.

Kylo’s line about killing Palpatine comes directly after he tells Rey they’re a Dyad in the Force, and he specifically says they will kill him “together”. I think it’s simple to put two and two together and imagine Kylo would think they can defeat Palpatine because they’re a dyad.

I’d say the central theme of the film is fighting alone vs standing together:

Poe thinks the Resistance is alone, that the rest of the galaxy has given up. “They win by making you think you’re alone. Remember? There’s more of us.” It’s no coincidence these words are echoed by Poe while talking about rallying the people: “The First Order wins by making us think we’re alone”, and by Lando once the galaxy does come together: “There are more of us”. This is why the Resistance alone can’t/shouldn’t have the means to defeat or permanently cripple the Final Order. The finale is all about putting their faith in the people, it’s about everyone coming together to fight against evil. The entire galaxy coming together needs to be THE reason they win against the Sith Fleet.

As underused as Finn is, the little we do get is him thinking he was alone in leaving the First Order, only to find there were more defecting stormtroopers, who join him and end up being a major help in the final battle. And Rose is left alone by the movie to hammer this theme home.

Of course this theme is also present in Rey’s struggle, and is one of the few things I think carries over well from the previous films. Rey has always felt alone, all her life she had to fend for herself on Jakku, and her main struggle in TFA and TLJ was her seeking belonging, first with Han, then with Luke, and finally with Kylo (or rather with Ben, as we see in this film). In this movie we see her trying to find belonging in 1- Her friends, and 2- The Jedi, but as we see from the opening, she is not only separated from her friends, but also no one answers as she calls out to the Jedi. She is alone, and even when her friends join, she still feels alone since she feels like they don’t understand her and her troubles: “People keep telling me they know me, I’m afraid no one does”.

I agree with Jar Jar’s read of Rey’s struggle (and I haven’t read the novelisation), Rey pushes her friends away because she’s afraid of herself, not because she doesn’t care about them, quite the opposite. By the time we get to Endor she feels she has failed not only her friends and the Jedi, but even Ben (by striking him down with no hesitation). She’s failed everyone she seeked belonging with, and so she’s now completely alone. Palpatine plays into this by telling her that the belonging she’s been looking for has always been with the Sith, that this is her place as his grandaughter. He goes a step further by suggesting that accepting her place would give her the power to stop the conflict, saving her friends (same thing Kylo refused to do in TLJ). Rey thinks it’s her only choice, until she senses Ben, she realizes she’s not alone and she’s able to “stand thogether” with him, followed by all the Jedi coming to her aid once she reaches out. She embraces Ben, she embraces the Jedi, and she’s finally able to embrace her friends on Ajan Kloss once the struggles are over.

I think this movie is “greatly flawed”, I specially despise it as a sequel to TLJ. However, like I’ve said before, it is what we have to work with, and there is stuff to work with. I agree with Jar Jar that we should focus on improving what we have instead of just removing large chunks out of it otherwise we’ll be left with a whole bunch of nothing.

Regardless of if 3PO gets redubbed, I think it’d be worth to consider removing the “horrible things” line (which some find asinine as she’s holding Anakin’s saber with her other hand) as well as removing momma rey’s scream both times she picks it, taking advantage of these moments to introduce and shift the focus to the concept of Rey hearing whispers emanating from the dagger instead.

Could it work to reinstate the snippet with Hux, Pryde and Chewie after Rey senses him on Kijimi and extending it with the new “torture chamber” shot at the end (after Pryde says “take it to Interrogation 6”) and some sinister music?

sherlockpotter said:

Like I said last time, I don’t think it’s a huge logical leap that, when they’re looking for a Sith artifact by tracking a known Sith assassin, they find what is clearly a Sith artifact (based on the Sith language written on it), and deduce that it’s relevant to their Sith-centric mission. And they’re desperate for clues anyway. To me, that makes a lot more sense than someone programming 3PO with an illegal Sith to English dictionary, but then programming him to also not actually be able to use it, or to input the coordinates into the navigation computer himself, or something. The former is a reasonable deduction that anyone would make, especially given that the new dialogue line implies a level of logical reasoning behind it; the latter actually makes no sense.

At that point they’re not looking for a Sith artifact or Sith language, they’re looking for a nebulous “clue that could lead to a Wayfinder”, so it is a huge leap to make, not a reasonable deduction, specially coming from 3PO. Nothing implies the dagger is related to the Wayfinder at all, the “clue” could’ve been anything, anywhere, a piece of paper or a holorecording, the serpent could’ve eaten it for all they know. So 3PO would just be making a baseless assumption and the rest of the gang would immediatly agree it’s the one thing they need without a second thought. It would actually make no sense and I can see it being torn to shreds on analysis threads like this one.

3PO is fluent in over six million forms of communication, but a law that forbids translation of the Sith language was hard-coded into his programing at some point, I don’t see how that’s so complicated. Saying 3PO could’ve said the relevant information without a direct translation, or just punched in the coordinates, are just nitpicks, as there’s no specifics of how 3PO’s programming works. We’re told that he is “mechanically incapable” of speaking translations stored in his “redacted memory”, so who’s to say he isn’t also “mechanically incapable” of doing or saying anything that would relay that information?

The new change Sherlock is making is turning “It’s the clue Master Luke was looking for” into “This must be the clue that Master Luke was looking for”. This aims to make it so that 3PO doesn’t know what the dagger says. Personally I oppose to this change since it makes the already ridiculous plot even more ridiculous, as the gang would go through the whole ordeal to translate the inscription (traveling to an occupied warzone, sacrificing 3PO’s memory) without even knowing for sure it’s the information they need.

For comparison here’s Sherlock’s previous version (which also removes the lines relating to the location of the Wayfinder):

https://streamable.com/g624m1

Looking back on it, it still reads as 3PO knowing what the dagger says (knowing for sure it’s what they need) but being unable to transalte, so I think it’s the better version (I would just add back the line “Oh I have read it, sir” if it can fitted back in). Sherlock argues it’s dumb for 3PO to know the information and not be able to relay it in another way, which is more of a nitpick on the same level of “dumb if you stop and really think about it” as everything else in the film. I think it’s dumber to have the whole second act hinge on translating this random inscription without even knowing it has the information they need.

Also this new change doesn’t fully work since when Finn asks “Where’s the Wayfinder?” 3PO says “I am afraid I cannot tell you” instead of “I am afraid I don’t know since I’m unable to translate this inscription and it might not even contain the location of the Wayfinder but I just have such a good hunch this is what we need I’d be willing to sacrifice my entire existence for it”.

I always took the jar of Snokes/Palp clones as ‘used’ or failed experiments, not new growing organisms. The Jar of Snokes seemed like leftovers from the experiments that resulted in THE Snoke, and likewise the old Palpatine bodies seem like either failed attempts or bodies that were used and ‘exhausted’ by Palpatine’s spirit.

It really feels out of character how callous Poe is towards 3PO and even “cone face”, compared to how he treats BB-8 in the previous movies. Though to be fair he’s mean to Finn and Rey aswell and just acts annoyed throughout the whole movie, he honestly just feels like a different character. I get he’s supposed to be struggling with the weight of becoming Leia’s succesor and leading the Resistance, but we don’t really get enough of that throughout the film to justify his behaviour, and his character doesn’t really change in any meaningful way, there’s no character arc where he learns to be a leader (there was in TLJ but I guess he kinda forgot), Lando is the one who ends up unifying the galaxy off screen while Poe just jumps in an X-wing and blows something up.

whichever the pose, he should have his “Jedi Master” black robes he wore on Crait.

I think it’s fantastic. A simple and clever fix. Also like I previously said it feels like a callback to Anakin’s Starfighter:

I noticed the shot at 00:14 has some red accents and lights on the wall turned yellow that would need to be masked out.

To match what I said previously, maybe the new vision could include Kylo’s “You’re still holding on! Let go!” Or at least the “let go” bit, to make it more obvious what she does/needs to do.