Burbin

It’s just a very dull concept, “Leia sensed the death of her son so she left her Jedi path, but she said that one day someone would come to complete her son’s destiny to die”. It’s so clunky, and it’s an odd thing to introduce near the end of the final film, where there was no previous notion that Leia had any sort of premonition of her son’s fate, she even said “I know my son is gone” in the last film.

That’s why people considered changing it to ‘birth’ to make things simple. But I think it’s a lot more fitting if Leia simply sensed she was not meant to be a Jedi, it fits better with the Leia we see in the previous films. Luke is talking to Rey about the “destiny of a Jedi”, so it’s fitting to juxtapose that with Leia sensing it wasn’t her destiny to be a Jedi.

It makes more sense if the “journey” Rey has to finish is strictly centered on being a Jedi (the center of her character journey and her main struggle in this film). Adding “oh and also Ben will die when you pick up her journey” just muddles things to the point that’s the one thing people take out of that scene. Shifting the focus of Leia’s path solely on ‘being a Jedi’ also fits pretty nicely with the line change to “I’m a Jedi” on Exegol, which would be followed by the sabers “fizzling out”, finishing their journey.

Exactly, she forgot her parents loved her and then tried to convince herself they did while secretly believeng they didn’t. It’s so dumb and backwards. More than her parents not being ‘nobodies’ this is what ruins the moment in TLJ, and the development of Rey’s character through the first two films.

Burbin said:

in any case I don’t think it’s possible to remove the implication that Rey had repressed memories within repressed memories

Come to think of it, in TLJ it’s implied she always knew the truth about her parents, but was in denial - she wanted to believe things might be different. Here it seems to be actually repressed memories coming back to her, and Kylo trying to help her remember - “search your memories”. Basically she was in denial about her parents abandoning her and not caring about her, but it turns out she had repressed memories that prove they did care about her… so she was right to be in denial. It’s really, really dumb. It really makes me wish Rey’s parents being honorable could be removed.

If not, perhaps the line could be changed from “you remember more than you say” to “you remember more than you know”, very minor change but at least it would make it clear she literally doesn’t remember, instead of implying she doesn’t want to accept the truth that her parents cared about her(?!).

If I recall correctly the tone and delivery of “you don’t have to say anything” was way too harsh for the moment. Maybe we could get an A.I. line if it’s not too late, but in any case I don’t think it’s possible to remove the implication that Rey had repressed memories within repressed memories without totally reworking the scene.

“has journeyed” might sound a bit too verbose, I think simply “Supreme Leader Kylo Ren journeys to Mustafar” would work, and imo it sounds better than “has traveled” which always felt a bit dry to me.

I just don’t think we should run the risk of people thinking back to the Palpatine scene during the Han scene since there’s no intended connection to be drawn, I see it as an issue because both lines are said by Kylo, it might seem like a callback where there shouldn’t be one.

And I agree Palps is shown to be the same character, but it could still cause some confusion (that is best avoided) if he is directly refered to as a “clone” - people might assume he has false memories or is just pretending to remember his “past life” as part of his manipulation. We already hear from Merry that “cloning” might have been part of the process, which now connects to the tank of discarded Palp bodies. But he is not a clone, so I think the only way the line would work is if Palpatine was able to counter it (such as it was in the cut dialogue - “more than a clone, less than a man”).

I fear the line would have some odd unwanted symmetry with his line to Han - “You’re just a memory”. Also Palps not refuting that he’s “just a clone” would make it even more confusing whether he’s the same Palps or a copy. He’s only supposed to have a cloned body, which the vat of decayed Palpatines already works to show.

Yeah, her main struggle in the film is feeling worthy of taking the Jedi mantle itself, so that line is more poignant for her character, “all the Jedi” relates more to the broader Sith vs Jedi conflict this film sets to conclude (after resurrecting), but having the Jedi spirits stand behind her and lend her their help is enough to imply that element in a visual manner.

Those are deepfakes that use A.I. to alter the face while following the original motion, changing the mouth movements to match new lines would be a totally different thing. And the Tarkin & Leia deepfakes are not seamless, they’re just a marked improvement over the dated CGI used originally, deepfaking Adam Driver would immediatly stand out as phony compared to the original footage.

I’m also weary of overusing the A.I. voice since it can’t 100% match Adam’s natural performance, though I guess it’s better to get as many samples as we can even if only a small fraction is actually used.

So many great changes have already been implemented/are close to done, it’d be great if a ‘V1.5’ could be put together while the bigger stuff keeps being worked on.

I don’t think the delivery of “You are nothing” works as Palp’s final line. And I think “scavenger” is just as personal, even more so since Palps could tell anyone “You are nothing”, but he’s specifically telling her she’s still just a scavenger, not worthy of calling herself a Jedi, but she’s refutes him and asserts herself just as you said.

sherlockpotter said:

Cap is still helping me track down some more instances of Rey saying “I am” to help smooth over that transition (thank you, Cap!!); but in the meantime, I wanted to get back into the scene after stepping away from it for a bit. If it’s not 100% yet, that’s fine - hopefully we’ll be able to use some of the new clips - but for now, I have it with Sade’s Palpy dialogue rearrangement, the added Rey pant as before, and a new cut of “am a Jedi.” The big thing I’m curious about for this test: I also tweaked the video somewhat to see if I could fudge the lip sync at all, so I’d love feedback on that!

https://streamable.com/l4ugyw

I think it looks and sounds great!

I feel the pacing, the delivery and the ideas flow the best with this rearrangement of the dialogue. Basically he first tells her “You are nothing, I am everything”. Then to rub it in he calls her a scavenger.

If Palps last line was “I am all the Sith” then the only appropiate response for Rey would be “I’m all the Jedi”, basically countering “I have the power of all the Sith inside me” with “I have the power of all the Jedi who stand behind me”. But switching the last line to calling her a scavenger is brilliant because now it’s personal, it speaks to her own self-doubt, and now the appropiate response for Rey is to take the courage to call herself a Jedi.

Hi, could I have a link? Been lurking this project for a while, it’s really cool to see it’s so close to done and I’d like to check it out.

I dunno… the joke lands for me, not just the 3PO line, but the idea that the babbling little guy would go out of his way to secretly aid the resistance movement, I think it is meant to be outlandish and comical in the right kind of cheesy way. He doesn’t need to appear again at the end, it has enough of a payoff in and of itself: first we don’t expect this “black market droidsmith” to be a tiny frog fella, then we don’t expect the tiny droidsmith to help out in such a fashion after meeting him. It fits with the idea that good people are willing to stand (and would be even more fitting if the ‘rebellious Kijimi’ ideas are implemented).

I feel nitpicking that one line is just taking things way too serious, the kind of person that would have a legit gripe over this would probably have a problem with just about everything else in this movie. And again it’s a matter of weighing the options and I think it does more harm than good to alter/remove things and cut Jannah’s introduction even shorter for the sake of changing this.

sherlockpotter said:

I mean, yeah, the whispers are fantastic. But the dagger translations wouldn’t affect them at all, so I don’t understand the worry, here. And in fact - “It would even make more sense now for her to storm off behind their backs on Endor, since she doesn’t want them to know what she’s doing” - if Finn and Poe already know that the Wayfinder is on DSII, then doesn’t that counteract your point? If Rey just randomly tells them, “I think we have to go to Endor” (i.e. the new translation plan), and they’re just in the background wondering what the heck they’re doing out here, then that would be in line with what you’re proposing.

What I mean is that they don’t know the precise location of the Wayfinder, Poe says “it’ll take years to find what we’re looking for”, Rey whispers to herself “only this blade tells”, like she’s thinking “oh no, I’ll have to follow the evil whispers…” before Jannah and co. walk in. It then makes more sense for Rey to storm off afterwards because she wouldn’t want to explain how she can find the exact location of the Wayfinder, she doesn’t want anyone to know about the dark whispers in her head. This wouldn’t work if the translation spells it out to everyone, they all would know about the whispers, tapping into the dark side, etc.

So it’s not as strong, and again, I think it would just feel like there are missing lines/scenes of Finn and Poe properly reacting to all of this information, whereas we can get away with far more if it’s something only Rey knows and is actively keeping to herself. Which again also better builds up on her struggles of isolation in the film.

I’m sure we could figure out some way of redubbing that line. That’s not a huge issue. And if not…it’s not the first time this film failed to get adequate coverage. J.J.'s whole MO is cutting emotional scenes short with a sudden enemy arrival, so it would blend right in!

That’s what I’m getting at, the dagger being inscribed with direct coordinates to Endor is not great, that’s why redubbing it sounds good on paper, but looking at the whole picture I think it can’t be changed without creating more issues, and trying to patch those in would just result in a worse overall outcome than just letting that small contrivance stand.

I thought we were cutting that line anyway, because they threw away their own story logic for the sake of a quick joke? (Namely that “Babu only works for the crew,” and also that the line implies he was broadcasting Rey’s location to the entire galaxy.)

I don’t see the issue with the Babu line, it’s clear Zorii and Babu are supposed to be good people and it’s not hard to rationalize it was an encrypted transmission on a rebel frequency Jannah and co. would be looking out for. This feels more like a nitpick you’d find on a “top 10 plot holes in TRoS” article rather than a legit issue that needs to be addressed.

I feel more split on the 3PO redub. I think the whispers are already telegraphed very well with the latest changes: Rey hears whispers when she picks up the dagger on Passana, then again while rescuing Chewie which prompts her to say “I have a feeling we need the dagger”, then she hears (presumably louder) whispers when she picks it up before being interrupted by Kylo, finally on Endor she puts two and two together over the meaning of “only this blade tells (the location of the Wayfinder)”.

Furthermore I feel that it’s better if the whispers are something only Rey knows about (and keeps to herself). That really drives on the idea of her feelings of isolation, in the same way she doesn’t tell Leia about her visions, she doesn’t tell her friends about the whispers. It would even make more sense now for her to storm off behind their backs on Endor, since she doesn’t want them to know what she’s doing (or how she’s doing it), instead of just because they’re running out of time.

Also I’m not a fan of all the small bits that would have to be cut. I feel there needs to be at least some reaction to the dagger’s translation they’ve worked so hard for (such as “the Endor system. Where the last war ended?”), an ambiguous translation would prompt an even bigger reaction, disconcerted looks from Poe and Finn, saying something like “what is that supposed to mean?” or “is that helpful? Rey, does that ring a bell?”. I know they are quickly interrupted by the arrival of Kylo’s ship and the reveal Chewie’s alive, but still it would be odd for them to never ponder over the misterious translation even afterwards. And I also don’t like trimming Jannah’s introduction even more and losing the Babu Frik joke from 3PO.

I see the “threat to his rule” as everything in the previous two paragraphs: flames of rebellion, Rey training to become a Jedi, Leia being a force of unity. And the “hidden power” would be the gigantic fleet which on this version is Kylo’s main motivation. So I think the last paragraph nails down everything perfectly to imply this new direction for Kylo’s character.

Changing the “threat” back to Palpatine as it was on the original crawl undermines that direction. Instead of Kylo seeking out a way to quell the growing uprising, a current threat to his rule that ties directly to the previous film, he’d just be searching for rumours of a possible threat to his rule that has nothing to do with the current affairs of the galaxy. And it goes back to Sherlock’s previous worry of spelling it out to the audience Kylo wants to take down Palpatine instead of keeping things ambiguous.

TestingOutTheTest said:

You really think that just because something is mentioned in the movie and has no evidence refuting it, doesn’t mean it’s automatically true? A fact is a fact. There’s nothing contradicting Kylo’s intentions to kill Palps.

And Palps wants to be killed, so Kylo saying he wants to kill Palpatine doesn’t tell us he’s doing anything against Palpatine’s plans at all, saying he wants to stop him would clear up any confusion on whether he’s on Palpy’s side or not.

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, to me, the throne = power. Kylo doesn’t want to be a Sith, but he wants that power.

The issue I have with that is that Kylo just spent the last movie working to take a throne that represents power, introducing another throne that represents power that Kylo wants to take just feels like a regression. And like Jar Jar said this is called the Sith throne, so more than power it represents a legacy that TLJ Kylo wouldn’t have any interest in, it makes more sense that he’s looking to make his own throne stronger so to speak, rather than trying to take a new one.

As for the crawl, I agree with changing “attacking” to “silencing”, other than that I don’t think it should be changed. I think it’s better to keep whether or not Kylo’s really on Palpy’s side ambiguous until he reveals his true plans to Rey (rather than saying “he sees him as a threat!” from the beggining), and instead focus on the “threat to his rule” being the flames of rebellion ignited by Luke… “see you around kid”.

sherlockpotter said:

Again, I like what you’re going for; I just don’t think the film shows it in any meaningful capacity. Especially “He’s willing to gamble with the devil” - that would have been so cool! But as the film never really does much with the idea of Kylo double crossing Palpatine aside from one or two throwaway lines. There’s no scene where Rey wonders about Kylo’s loyalties, or where Kylo openly goes against orders…It’s all played very straight. He says he’ll help Palpatine, and then he tells Rey he won’t. How compelling. But the key is, none of it changes how Rey sees Kylo at all, or how the audience sees Kylo at all. So any potential nuance or intrigue is nullified.

Oh yeah, in the theatrical version Palpatine just feels like a Snoke replacement so that Kylo regresses into “overturning his Master to take his place” mode like TLJ never happened and becoming the Supreme Leader meant nothing, him telling Rey he has “other plans” rings hollow.

But with these changes to the crawl, and removing his interest in “taking the thone”, the point of focus would now be on the conference scene where they talk about the how the fleet will turn the FO into a true Empire and increase their resources ten thousand fold. Since from the crawl we now know the FO is struggling with the growing uprising and Kylo’s looking to increase it’s power, we can now see this as Kylo’s main interest. He even says on that scene “prepare to crush any worlds that defy us”, so it’s not like this is something we’re completely making up, just giving it the focus it deserved.

And by removing Kylo’s interest in the throne, you remove his apparent allegiance to the Sith. I prefer the implication that he is just flat out against Palpatine’s plans and is just trying to use him (taking a gamble by confronting him and pretending to do his bidding). It feels more in line with the Kylo from TLJ, after all Palpatine is basically a symbol for resurrecting the past, the opposite of Kylo. That’s also why I really liked your change to Kylo’s line to Rey “we can stop Palpatine”, which aids in feeling like Kylo really has “other plans” of his own.

sherlockpotter said:

Fair point, Burbin; I think I may be conflating the theatrical crawl and the Ascendant crawl in my head. I’ve been pondering over this film so long, everything is becoming a blur haha.

I guess as-is is fine, then. Personally, I think I’d still rather have the change though. If he’s going after the hidden power because it would “allow him to destroy any threats,” that implies to me that he’s choosing a certain side; and I’d rather keep his motivations more ambiguous. But like I said, I guess it’s fine to leave it.

I think telling the audience Kylo is in need of more power to shut down the threat of rebellion is great to telegraph his shifted motivation being solely focused on the Sith fleet. His rule is under threat and he needs more resources, it makes Palpatine’s offer more enticing without telling us what side Kylo’s really on. And the fact he’s willing to gamble with the devil for it makes the growing uprising seem like a real threat.

Palpatine offers him more power and to rule all the galaxy though, so this version doesn’t give anything away, while the original crawl spelled out “Kylo is searching for Palpatine to destroy him because he’s a threat to his power”, here the “threat to his rule” would actually be the flames of rebellion rising in the galaxy.

That’s my thinking too jarbear, adding some anti-FO/Luke grafitti and changing some stormtrooper lines instantly alters the context of the FO troops raiding homes and holding people. Basically hinting that there are people out there that have hope and want to push back against the opression, but they’re not united (yet) and as such they’re caught in a constant struggle. That would still gel with the depressive state of Kijimi while offering another hint at what’s to come.

sherlockpotter said:

Burbin said:

…There is enough of a backbone of elements like these that do seem thought out…

That’s pretty much the one thing I’ll flat-out disagree with you on, mate lol. I don’t think the story was well thought out at all; and one of the things I love about Ascendant is that it actually provides much of the backbone that was missing in the theatrical (like when it sets up the galaxy rising up in the crawl).

Like I said I don’t think the film is a secret masterpiece for this, it was clearly rushed out and mangled in development, with things shifting around in the middle of production, the end product is a garbled mess. I’m not saying it was well thought out, but to say it was not thought out at all would be disingenuous. There are clear throughlines and intentions within the story and characters, some we can disagree on, some are muddled or underdeveloped, but they’re there. It’s the reason Ascendant has been such a great project, because there’s stuff buried in the mud that can be drawn out and polished.

sherlockpotter said:

It’s not a conflict with his character arc - it’s a conflict with the mechanics of the story.

The main reason I went about altering the dialogue was because it contradicts the new through line that was added in Ascendant, of the galaxy rising up. Right in the new opening crawl - “Flames of rebellion burn across the galaxy”… it creates a conflict if we say that the galaxy is rebelling, and then Poe claims that “Maybe it is over. Everyone is so afraid. They’ve given up.”

So yeah, Poe’s hopelessness works in the theatrical version, where the galaxy has given up (until Lando gives everyone an off screen pep talk); but if we want to establish that the galaxy has been working on this since Crait, Poe claiming that the galaxy is “afraid” and “has given up” comes across as incongruous. The restructured dialogue effectively conveys the same ideas of Poe’s hopelessness as it did originally, just without that contradictory aspect.

I don’t see it as contradictory, the point of Poe’s arc is that he’s wrong, both in the theatrical and in Ascendant, to think the galaxy has given up. That there are other people out there willing to fight. In TLJ he learns to embrace the role of a leader, here we see he feels the burden of taking over such a role. So his focus is on the strenght of the Resistance, we see him scold Rey for staying behind when she’s the best fighter the Resistance has.

The new crawl serves to tell us the state of the galaxy, so that we can accept it could come together in such an incredible fashion by the end. But it doesn’t mean Poe is aware of everything that’s going on, he didn’t see the kids on Canto Bight recounting the tale of Luke, he didn’t notice the puppet show on Passana and he walked right past a Skywalker mural on Kijimi. To him the Resistance forces are dwindling, and it’s all on his shoulders. He comes to the conclusion everyone is too afraid to join the Resistance, but reminiscing with his old friend Zorii helps him think outside his Resistance shaped box, that there are other good people out there and so the Resistance isn’t alone in it’s fight against evil.

The way I edited it - or at least, the way I envisioned it 😉 - it would only serve to enhance everything you’re saying about Poe and his journey. The difference is that rather than “nothing character #156, introduced two minutes earlier” Zorii telling Poe "Ehh…I’m sure there are other people somewhere! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ", it becomes an actual moment - a scene for Poe to see for himself (and for the audience to see) that the galaxy hasn’t given up on their cause. He helped inspire the galaxy by his actions on Crait, and now the galaxy is able to inspire him in return. It’s tangible, and concrete; it’s much, much more than Keri Russell saying “Cheer up there, bucko!” as her seventh line of dialogue.

Fair enough. Though I remain skeptical it can be done seamlessly, as I feel there would be something more to this scene if it was actually made with this intention, I would like to see it. But I don’t think the dialogue should be trimmed… the role of nothing character #156 is small, but as I’ve said it’s there and it does serve it’s function. I’m not saying this movie is secretly genius or anything, but there is enough of a backbone of elements like these that do seem thought out, if rather rushed and not perfectly executed, so we should strive to work with these elements and improve them where possible, being careful not to make cuts that might end up doing more harm.

Congrats on finishing season 3! I started watching the first few episodes but I think I’ll wait for the season 1 polish/reordering before I continue and make any comments. I also checked out S03E00 - Tales from the Clone Wars out of curiosity. I’m a huge fan of the Tartakovsky series and I really loved S01E00, however I felt a bit mixed with S03E00. I found the tween animation of Forces of Destiny very jarring when mixed with the beautiful frame-by-frame animation of the Tartakovsky series, there’s also a clash in tone from FoD being more light and kiddy, to CW being more intense and action-heavy. For example, cuting from Mace taking down legions of super battle droids to Padmé and Ahsoka taking a casual piloting lesson has a bit of a tonal whiplash.

I wonder if these issues could be mitigated by sticking the FoD segments together to create a single “Tale from the Clone Wars” that is closer in lenght to the Dantooine and Illum segments. It would begin with Ahsoka training with Anakin, then imply later that day she meets Padmé for security duties. Then the following day all three depart on a mission together, ending with that nice Ahsoka/Padmé interaction. I think these three stories have a nice natural progression and would flow together well.

Also I think Kit Fisto on Mon Cala makes for a better opening, it’s a quick and simple battle that sets the stage for shorter stories, and it begins with a bit of narration that the other segments lack. With these changes the episode could be ordered like this:

• Jedi Master Kit Fisto leads the battle on Mon Cala
• Ahsoka recieves training form her Master and Yoda, and meets/bonds with Padmé
• Jedi Master Mace Windu leads the battle on Dantooine
• Barris recieves training from her Master, and Yoda and Padmé appear again.

Then finally you bring things back to Ahsoka and end with the ceremony. The only thing that would be left out is the segment where Ahsoka and Padmé are flying around in space, which honestly I think is pretty weak and random, and I think the other FoD segments are stronger if they’re the ones where we see them bonding for the first time. Ahsoka telling Anakin “I like her” in “Unexpected Company” lands better if they’re not previously shown taking space strolls together.

I just don’t understand why the dialogue needs to be gutted though, in my opinion it’s much better the way it is originally. I don’t think it works to splice the Crait line before “maybe it is”, it breaks the flow of the conversation, and I don’t get why you’d remove “Everyone’s so afraid. They’ve given up”. This doesn’t contradict Poe’s development from TLJ, and is integral to his arc: Poe still believes the Resistance is the spark, but he laments so many people haven’t joined the Resistance because they’re afraid/given up. When Zorii says “there’s more of us” she’s telling him there are more good people in the galaxy, good people who’d be willing to fight. This is something he still believes (which is why she tells him “I don’t believe you believe that”), he just has moments of doubt, such as this, the scene on Leia’s death bed, and the ‘lowest point’ of the battle on Exegol.

Poe’s arc in this movie goes hand in hand with it’s main theme: he goes from believing the Resistance has to fight alone, to putting his faith in the people, The people who come together and (in this version) Rise in the name of Skywalker. He basically goes from only focusing on the spark, to actually letting it light the fire that brings the First Order down. Poe’s conversation with Zorii is a key moment for the story and his character arc, and is one of the few legit callbacks to TLJ. I don’t think it’s a disposable, meaningless moment… and I don’t think it should be tampered with.

We can add signs of rebellion on Kijimi without interfering with this, in fact it could heighten the fact Poe is so focused on the struggles of the Resistance he’s (partially) blind to signs of the external growing uprising. Maybe the moment he listens to rebellious calls could work, if it can be done seamlessly, as the moment he regains his hope/faith in the people, but I think the previous dialogue with Zorii shouldn’t be altered.