Yeah, it makes sense to keep what little original dialogue still works for that scene, though the subs on the other languages still have the altered line.
Hey Hal, I noticed in these new releases Rey has the original “milky” white eyes on her vision. You also didn’t use the change to “we’ve become a dyad in the Force”, though since it’s also reverted on the english subtitles I assume that was intentional?
Spanish:
I also wish your PT edits had the original titles, because to me they work as fixed versions of the original films, not alternative cuts that seek to switch things up, which is the feeling I get by seeing them have totally different titles. Also when thinking of showing this to first time viewers, they’re still likely to be familiar with the original titles even if they haven’t seen the films, so it’s harder to sell these as the “definitive” cuts.
Burbin, I’ve noted those ideas and will play with them next time I manage to boot up into my old OS and do some work on this. Thank you.
Thanks to you and Spence/RL for putting things togheter. I had made my peace with Rey Palpatine but honestly having seen the workprint I’m beggining to think the ‘nobody’ cut might end up a half decent followup to TLJ.
Also, I have another idea for the hangar scene:
I feel the dialogue flows a lot better if we move around Kylo’s spiel about the light/darkness to after he reveals that they’re a dyad, in that way what he’s saying is more explicitly an explanation of what the dyad is, he says they’re two sides of the same Force coin before then saying if they joined forces they’d become unstoppable. So the reveal is basically “Palpatine sent me to kill you because he knows you will overtake him, but what he doesn’t know is I’m actually here to help you do it”.
I like how this new dialogue kinda implies they’d achieve some sort of balance if they were together (“powerful light, powerful darkness”) or that the dyad is trying to balance itself. To carry on with that idea I feel it’d be good to change Kylo’s line in the DSII “The dark side is in our nature” to “The dark side is in your nature”, since Rey is the one being pulled to the dark. Maybe this would lessen Ben’s ‘redemption’, as he admits of being pulled to the light, but I think it could be seen as Kylo trying to find a middle ground but being torn because Rey refuses to accept her darkness. Kylo is offering this more grey alternative to Rey, but since she refuses, she continues down her dark path and pushes Ben to the light.
On the quarters duel, I’d strongly recommend reverting back to the original Kylo line “I needed you to see it… who you are.” I think that line would work great with the way this ‘Rey nobody’ story has been molded, I don’t see why it was changed. I think the original is a lot more personal and speaks to Rey’s inner struggle, which would prompt her to lash out at him in denial. He’s basically affirming her fears that the darkness she’s trying to contain is her true self, and she has to “surrender to it”, as he later says. It also ties with “don’t be afraid of who you are”, as stated by Leia and later twisted by her Evil self. The line it was replaced with basically changes it to “I wanted you to see just how cool the dark side is”.
The original line is also what Rey is refering to when she tells Finn “People keep telling me they know me”, so without it that doesn’t make much sense. It would also better set up the reveal on the hangar, as it implies Kylo knows more about her that he’s let on (specially now that you’ve removed “who is she?” from the opening). Which is also why I think you should restore the line “You don’t know the whole story”, it would help give back a bit more meat to the duel since it restores it’s function as setup for the hangar scene. So it would play out like this: “I needed you to see it… who you are. Rey… you don’t know the whole story. Tell me where you are.” Now it’s clear Kylo knows something and he wants to tell Rey, which explains why Rey decides to stay on the hangar and listen to whatever he has to say, otherwise I think it’s pretty odd, specially the way she says “tell me” like she’s desperate to know “the rest of her story” despite only just learning about it.
Hey, I like that! Totally works for me. Almost want to replace the Rey Palpatine version, but it’s probably better to leave it about her parents.
Here’s my (rough) attempt to implement some of my ideas for the vision, building off of Hal’s edit:
https://streamable.com/3gm19bJust went back and saw this. I think the added clips really enhance it nicely, Burbin! And I love the sound effects with the screams, they create a lovely, eerie tone. It’s a little jarring to hear “Join me” and “You’re still holding on” simultaneously - I’d try to space them out slightly so they don’t overlap - but overall big improvement!
I’m still a little unsure about using those TFA shots though. The theatrical film sets that up as a “Wow, Rey is tapping into the Force and becoming a Jedi” Hero-moment, and I think it could be weird for casual audience members to have that retconned into a Dark Side moment in a 1-second flashback montage.
I’m glad you guys liked that vision edit! It was fun to put those ideas into practice and seeing that they actually fit pretty well with what we had. I agree about the Kylo lines, honestly I left the “Join me” because I just worked on top of Dom/Hal’s edit, though looking at it now I do think having both lines could work if placed and blended better.
It was a popular read back in the day that Rey tapped into the dark side to beat Kylo on SKB, and apparently it’s in the novelization(?). Daisy’s acting definitely left room for that interpretation, even if the story beat called for a triumphant moment as the good guy beats the bad guy, and TLJ built on that by showing Rey didn’t understand the nature of her power, and that she’s not afraid to go to the dark (and also that things ain’t as simple “good guys” vs “bad guys”). So coming into TROS I don’t see this as retconning TFA, but rather trying to follow the throughline from TLJ.
Here’s my (rough) attempt to implement some of my ideas for the vision, building off of Hal’s edit:
https://streamable.com/v7awjtI very much like this. Is there way to make Luke’s line a bit clearer though? Also, I think you can add on the second " LET GO!" part of Kylo’s line.
I planned to use the full Kylo line, but I feel the last bit really doesn’t fit, and it gets muddled by/distracts from the big lightning blast. I feel “you’re still holding on” paired with the visuals and Luke’s line still gets the point across, that she’s “holding on” from her inner darkness. As for Luke’s line, I think the scream from Rey’s mom would need to be removed, so that should help make it sound clearer.
For comparison here’s a version with the full Kylo line, and Luke’s line made slightly louder:
https://streamable.com/9xb14n
Here’s my (rough) attempt to implement some of my ideas for the vision, building off of Hal’s edit:
https://streamable.com/3gm19b
If you do use the shot from Starlight you’d really need to give Evil Rey Sith eyes too throughout, otherwise I don’t think it really reads. I do think the shots you chose work very well, and I imagine you plan to play around with the audio as well.
Other ideas:
Use Finn’s “Noooo!” from Chewie’s ‘death’ to begin the vision, similarly to the way baby Rey’s worked originally, or Finn yelling “Rey!”, though that’s become a bit of a meme.
You have to remove three Finn NOOOOs or REEEEEEYs to add one.
Thinking about this some more, a better option if you’re starting the vision with the TFA duel would be to use Finn’s scream when Kylo burns his shoulder. I think it’s a pretty recognizable yell which would setup the following visuals. In TFA it’s the first thing Rey hears after coming back to, it’s when we switch to her perspective so it’d be pretty fitting, and you avoid adding on to Finn’s signature REEEEYs & NOOOOs in the movie.
I had also thought to suggest showing the TFA duel in the vision, reframing it to imply she unknowingly used the dark side to defeat Kylo. I do think using the Sith eyes would be a bit too on the nose, unless this was a follow-up to Starlight. I think it’d work to just show Rey striking Kylo down paired with Luke’s “You went straight to the dark”, then followed by a shot of Rey falling down the dark side hole and/or inside the cave.
Other ideas:
Use Finn’s “Noooo!” from Chewie’s ‘death’ to begin the vision, similarly to the way baby Rey’s worked originally, or Finn yelling “Rey!”, though that’s become a bit of a meme.
Incorporate Obi-Wan’s line “you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force” which could be faintly heard in Rey’s TFA vision (maybe keep it equally faint and echoey).
Use Kylo’s line “You’re still holding on! Let go!” as we see the lightning blast from Rey’s hand (it’d probably be better to leave “join me” instead, to keep the parallel to Kylo’s vision and set up all the talk about holding hands, but maybe both could fit?).
The blue lightning has an overall heavy blue cast even without the blue lightning so I think it fits okay as a vision or even misleading implication that it’s the huge blast we see put right after it.
Yeah, I think Dom’s idea with the vision was that it looks like it’s Evil Rey casting down the lightning blast, but as you watch the film you realize the vision was showing separate events. Which is why I said it’d be more jarring to see two versions of the same footage, but you’re right that the blue tint on the shot already hides it’s true colors so it still works in that way, and it’s meant to be a cryptic and wavering glimpse of the future, so it’s fine.
And for the opening vision I had just snipped out the first bit about her parents so that it is just her “vision about the throne of the Sith and who was on it.”
Oh, well that works as a quick and easy approach. Still, It would make sense to add a bit more to her vision to keep it similar to Kylo’s, which shows glimpses of other places, the future, the past, and in a way that helps consolidate his character and set up his motivations. Now that we don’t need to rethread on Rey’s parents, it’d be an opportunity to better set up Rey’s stuggle and connect it more with TLJ.
Speaking of which, if Rey’s parents are no longer a part of the story, what are the plans for her vision at the beginning? Spence’s edit pairs that moment with Leia’s death, so that’s not usable for this edit. Showing her parents abandoning her could still make sense as part of Rey’s struggle with self worth, but pairing that with evil Rey on the throne doesn’t make much sense, it feels like a setup with no payoff. I think it’d make more sense to change the vision to something more relevant to the “nobody” version of the story, like maybe showing Rey’s dark tendencies, and a reminder of TLJ’s revelations - “You went straight to the dark” “You’re still holding on! Let go!”. That would immediately make this feel more like a follow-up to ep VIII.
Also, that vision shows Rey’s lightning blast in blue, I think it’s fine since it’s meant to be cryptic but it does make the reused footage a bit more jarring.
Leia’s saber has always seemed pink to me on Exegol, my guess is the ‘grey Exegol’ LUT applied washes away the blue from the purple. I showed Ascendant to a group of friends a few months ago and one of them asked during the Exegol scenes if the saber was supposed to be purple or pink, so I know it’s not just me. I don’t know if anyone would be down to improving it, but it’d be a nice fix to have. Same with the reddish TIE from way back, if Poppa’s availabe.
I think the yellow lightning really works for the nobody version, paired with her lightsaber at the end it’s a nice hint at Rey accepting her inner darkness (which in this version is not Palpy genes) and finding balance, which is something from DotF that was muddled along the way. The average viewer would probably just assume the yellow lightning is a weaker and/or unfocused version, seeing a “new” power also adds to the surprise of that moment and helps it feel more unique, and therefore more memorable, rather than just another thing borrowed from the original films.
I’m also really glad you’re going with a version that avoids redeeming Rey’s parents, that to me is the biggest offence to the previous film’s reveal and to Rey’s whole journey in TFA & TLJ, I look forward to seeing how it comes together.
That’s fair, I guess the bottom line is that what this change does to TLJ’s narrative bothers me but not you, and the fact it wasn’t expanded upon in TROS bothers you but not me. I mean, there’s so little TROS properly picks up from TLJ and you just have to accept that to enjoy both films, I guess you can argue for “one less thing”, but tbh I appreciate that some things from TLJ, while not “followed up on”, at least where not actively rewritten or undone by TROS. Luke’s confrontation with Ben is something that’s simply not revisited in ep IX, so this change just seems trivial as far as “smoothing over” the trilogy.
It’s not something I feel super passionate about even though it’s appealing to smooth over the ST’s rocky terrain when possible and unintrusive.
This doesn’t really smooth over the trilogy, it smooths over TLJ and a series of comics, TROS doesn’t offer an alternative explanation for the KoR’s origins so to someone that only watches the movies there’s no contradiction. They might come off assuming the KoR were once Luke’s students but I don’t see the issue with that, if anything it would help make the KoR feel less bland and pointless in TROS for them. Sure they might go on Wookiepedia, learn of the ‘canon’ explanation and think “well that sucks”, but that’s true of a lot of the ‘canon’ we pick and choose to ignore, such as the caretakers on Ach-to or the Death Star cannons of the Sith Fleet.
I get that, what I’m saying is there are bigger narrative and thematic implications for that detail in Luke’s story than simply “setting up the origin of the KoR”, whether those students were the KoR or not isn’t really relevant for the story of this movie, but the ambiguity, the moral greyness and the mistery of what happened are. Luke saying “Ben killed everyone” removes that and also hurts Ben/Kylo’s character as a result. You removed Anakin killing children from LoE to help his character, but here the opposite is done by making Luke’s interpretation of events, that Kylo “slaughtered” everyone, seem like the only possible interpretation of what happened.
Rey mentions to Luke that the FO will control “all the major systems within weeks.” That’s what I had in mind, anyway.
I like that the movie aknowledges what taking “control of the galaxy” means with that line from Rey, but it never really delves into that, as it’s instead focused on Snoke taking care of the remaining threats before assuming control, so for the crawl I think just saying “control of the galaxy” would be more clear and to the point.
That’s just it, evidently those lost students have nothing to do with the Knights of Ren according to canon, although I think that was RJ’s intentions with that dialogue. I imagine he’d have had the scene go about as we have it in V5 were the Knights of Ren not introduced as a concept in TFA.
The comic book that shows what happened right after the slaughter appears to retcon this and tuck the inconsistencies away.
The thing is we’re hearing Luke’s perspective of events, who was unconscious while it all happened. He woke up, saw the temple on fire and some of his students dead, so he figured Ben had slaughtered them and left with the others. We know from the rest of the film that Luke’s not a reliable narrator (and that would be doubly true for events he didn’t even witness), that’s the whole point of the flashback scenes so any inconsistency with what “really happened” in some comic isn’t really an issue.
Kylo tells Rey that he “destroyed his temple”, but he never tells his side of what happened with the students, it’s supposed to be left ambiguous and we’re meant to wonder how it all really happened, the fact not all of Luke’s students were “slaughtered” really drives home that we’re not told the whole story. If anything the comic expands on that by revealing the “truth” behind those students that vanished with Ben. Though I don’t really care for the way it was handled, and I also think it’s fair to ignore such ancillary material and headcannon they’re Ren’s Knights or whatever else.
I’m really not a fan of the change to Luke’s line but oh well, let the past die, slaughter it if you have to. It’s neat to see the new crawl, the first paragraph definitely sets the broader stage much better, similarly to Restructured. I do feel it’s odd to talk about “central star systems” in the crawl when they don’t really play a role in the movie, and I think that makes the sentence a tad too wordy.
I understand it’s done and dusted, though, just sharing my two cents. This edit might be my second favourite Star Wars movie and I’ve seen v4 so many times, I guess I’m just hesitant to further changes, specially to the Rey/Luke/Kylo stuff which is the best of the film.
TLJ did a far better job reconciling the PT & OT than the PT itself ever did, it was respectful to what came before while building on top of it. The OT also couldn’t adress many of the elements raised by the PT because they just weren’t on the table yet, so it was appropriate to have a continuation that tackled these elements, which is what we got with TLJ. To me that’s the only reason I can accept both the PT & ST as part of a larger story despite their respective flaws.
The story of “The Saga” was never about Anakin though, the PT may have retroactively placed way too much importance on him, but storywise the OT just isn’t about Vader/Anakin, it’s about Luke, Han and Leia. The PT was about the previous generation while the ST, both the one we got and Lucas’ treatments, was about the next generation. The overarching story of all 9 movies is about these interweaving generations growing and evolving from each other, which is why I appreciate the ST we got. Despite it’s flaws and admittedly ending in quite a dud, it got a lot of it right, even TROS in some respects.
I’ve just been watching ROTJ as I do the prep for that movie’s focus thread, and like TPM its ending cuts between many different locations - three compared to TPM’s four. Notably it cycles between all three settings pretty quickly at times, and personally, I didn’t feel like it felt too ‘choppy’ or that it had high cognitive load like the original TPM ending does.
There’s a pretty interesting point I heard recently, the ending of TPM is actually equal to ROTJ, not larger. They both follow the same four plots:
The Duel - Luke vs Vader / Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan vs Maul
Ground Battle - Ewoks fight the Imperial army / Gungans fight the Federation army
Infiltration - Han & co. break into the shield generator / Padmé & co. break into the palace
Space Battle - The rebellion assault on the DSII / The naboo pilots assault the control ship
Both movies also technically have three main locations - in TPM the palace mission splits up into the duel & the infiltration, while in ROTJ the Endor mission splits into the ground battle & the infiltration.
Yeah I was refering to the climax, though it’d still apply to moving the scenes even further. I feel the gungan battle and the palace infiltration form a symbiont circle if you will, if you remove the gungan battle then you’d trivialize the palace infiltration, without most of the federation army being diverted to meet the gungans the infiltration would feel way too easy. The battle is also the big payoff to the large armies that were set up at the beggining of the film, as well as to Jar Jar being a character. And as I mentioned before, it also adds a ‘ticking clock’ element, it was never a winning battle for the gungans, only a diversion, everytime you cut back to it you see things getting worse for them so it feels more and more urgent that the other plans succeed.
Just replace the thala-siren in TLJ with a soda fountain. Rey is disgusted that Luke would pick Sprite instead of Coke.