Broom Kid

Here’s why the “a little planning” argument fails out:

The problem with The Rise of Skywalker is that the guy who was hired to come in and “fix” it to Lucasfilm’s satisfaction was completely uninterested in following any plan. Including his. Plans only have any worth if someone chooses to follow them. And Abrams wasn’t going to follow it. He didn’t even follow his own.

So you have a creative who doesn’t care about any plan (even his own) and executives unconcerned with making anyone adhere to that plan. Lucas was very much the same way. Guiding visions sound noble but if the person doing the guiding isn’t GOOD AT IT then you still wind up with more bad movies than good.

Plans aren’t laws. Especially not in a creative area. There’s a reason screenwriters are lowest figures on the filmmaking totem pole, and it’s not because they don’t know how to stick up for themselves.

Sometimes movies are just bad because the creatives making them don’t make the right decisions. It’s not a conspiracy or anything. Guiding visions and plans in place are security blankets for fandom. They’re not foolproof ways forward to making good movies, and there aren’t even really that many examples to prove the strength of that assertion anyway. Not that it matters. Security blankets can’t really protect you from monsters, either. But it feels like they can, and that’s THEIR worth.

So, if you left TFA thinking “it really seems like they want to hint that Rey’s parents were Kenobis of some sort” you weren’t wrong. That was initially on the table.

https://twitter.com/starwarstuff/status/1303652748223754240

Then Rian Johnson made the case for Rey Nobody really strongly and everyone liked that, and they did that for The Last Jedi. And then Trevorrow’s script got junked, they asked Abrams back, and he decided Rey was REALLY a Palpatine, only to waffle on that throughout production, and then ultimately decide fairly late in the game that she was.

Everyone on the twitters and the forums and all the usual fandom places seem to think this is proof positive that YOU NEED A PLAN (you don’t) but I don’t know. The takeaway here seems to be that if you want to double back on an idea, you better have good answers and a clear vision for how you want to do it. Because if you don’t, it’s not going to work well. Johnson had a pretty strong, clear idea for not pursuing Abrams’ initial “Rey Kenobi” idea (if he even knew that was the idea), but Abrams didn’t have any sort of clear idea for why he was doing anything he was doing, as evidenced by the fact he couldn’t even decide on WHAT it was he wanted to do until deep into production.

that’s certainly… a take.

Watch your mouth or you’re gonna be reading all about it in GQ Magazine.

$5.99. Per month

$5.99! I can make my own memes for that, we don’t have to sit here and watch Baby Yoda sip soup all–

We’ll pay you 5.99 now… and another 6.99 for Hulu w/ ads and ESPN+

ESPN+ huh? Okay, you guys got yourself a ship.

(ESPN+ those guys must REALLY be desperate this could REALLY save our necks)

they were all remastered by Reliance in 2012 as the first step in 3D conversion for theatrical re-release. And then The Phantom Menace 3D didn’t do what they wanted it to do at the box-office, and then George Lucas gave up and sold the company.

Hal 9000 said:

The suns change position in almost the same way in the theatrical, so if this is jarring it isn’t because of what we did here. I am fairly certain it’s the same footage of the suns even.

It’s a bad cut in the theatrical, too - the only thing that makes it slightly better is that there are figures in the foreground also blipping into existence so theres’ something else drawing attention to the fact the suns are just blinking around the screen. But it’s a bad cut either way. Again, it’s not “suggesting” anything, it’s just jump-cutting celestial bodies across the screen. if there’s a way to cut to something else before cutting back it’ll play better than just BLIP.

I don’t think cutting to the inside of the ship you just heard starting up for a fun moment as Rey and BB-8 leave frame, suggesting new adventures on the way, and then cutting back outside to that ship flying through frame is “random.” I think it honestly makes spatial and storytelling sense to do that. “Rey Skywalker” - They leave frame on the suns. Cut to the inside of the ship you just heard start up. Cut back to the suns, now in different position, a short time later - ship flies through that frame. Time has passed, the feeling of “they’re off on new adventures” is underlined, and iris out.

But I do think the current (and original) cut is just flat-out not good, in either original or fan-edited form right now.

Anakin Starkiller said:
Yes, there is a through-line, but Carrie Fisher’s death is irrelevant. Leia’s role in the trilogy has always been fairly minor, and her role in DotF could have easily been rewritten around the footage they had. Lucasfilm clearly had a problem with the script itself. I’m inclined to believe it’s the way it handled Kylo.

I don’t think Fisher’s death is irrelevant, There was a strong insistence on figuring out some way to keep her character in the story despite the fact the actor had died. I do agree the handling of Kylo was also a very big problem, but even bigger was the apparently not-up-for-debate guideline that you couldn’t write Leia out of the movie. It simply wasn’t an option. And it should have been. The movie was apparently begun (and re-begun) with Leia being responsible for whatever redemption Kylo was going to have. At no point did anyone even try to concieve of a story where Leia wasn’t in it, or that Kylo wasn’t redeemed. Removing huge, story-changing options like that from the storytelling process really hurt the movie’s potential.

On-topic: Has there been any discussion about moving the Chewie & the Boys chess scene to after Rey says “Rey Skywalker” but before she gets back on the ship? Because I still think that jump cut where the suns literally shift across the screen is not good. Unless that jump cut isn’t in the movie anymore (I haven’t seen the most recent workprint). I think you need a scene placed in there so it doesn’t look like a mistake in editing just occurred. Because that’s what it looks like now. I remember someone earlier saying “it suggests the passage of time” but it doesn’t really do that. It just looks like teleporting suns. That’s not suggesting anything clearly other than “we cut something out of here and didn’t put anything back.”

https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1368118/action/topic#1368118

Broom Kid said:

The UK blu-ray only Skywalker Saga box that was talked about frequently in this thread before the release might be different, but I don’t know that anyone who bought that one (the Wal-Mart link that kept getting posted was essentially a link to import the UK set) has written about it since they got it.

Thanks for the confirmation! It’s good to know.

Mace Windu’s lightsaber was blue until it was purple, too.

In Star Wars, Luke thinks he’s got a shot at Leia. Leia basically thinks both of them are bozos. Han doesn’t like her at all until he finds out Luke likes her. If there’s a “triangle” there it’s so simplistic as to be “hey there’s a girl here which of these two guys gets to get her.” That’s good enough to call it a “triangle” I guess, and historically it’s been seen as such but it’s pretty thin, dramatically.

But in Empire: The movie starts with Leia and Han liking each other. Luke is barely there, and when he IS there, she’s using him as a means to get at Han. And from that point forward it’s alllll Han & Leia. There’s no Luke. And there’s never Luke again. His leg of the (really weak) “Love Triangle” is dead the second Leia plants one on him and storms out of the room. At no point is he a romantic consideration for Leia afterwards. That’s borne out by the movie itself, and the behavior of the characters in it, and that’s before you even get to Jedi.

I never once in my life saw that kiss as even remotely romantic!

There’s not really a love triangle even in Empire. Lucas might have thought there was one, but again - the first thing Leia says when she wakes up Han in ROTJ is that she loves him. So even if anyone wanted to read that bedside peck as her taking the opportunity to express her romantic feelings for Luke, the question is effectively dead once Leia rescues Han.

Also there’s the fact Leia never once says anything even close to that to Luke in the Trilogy. She says “I love you” to Han twice, but the one time she admits she does love Luke, Han is the one who says it, to HER, and she laughs like “Yes, but as a brother, dumbass.” There is one scene of open attraction from Leia, towards Luke, in all of Star Wars, and it got cut out in Empire Strikes Back.

Kasdan I think knew the idea of the love triangle was dumb, and knew he’d solved that problem in the prior movie anyway, so he did what he could to present the facade of one to please George but never at any point wrote the characters to behave as if there actually WAS one in play.

It’s so easy to remove the subplot, too. Just cut from “Hey, what’s going on to” “Hold me.” and that’s one part of it completely gone. The other part, on Endor, simply necessitates a shot of Han looking confused and questioning after she says “He’s not. I can feel it.” If you can cut to Han looking goofy (pick a reaction face, he goes through like 3 of them in that scene) after she says that for a second or two, you can just cut back to Leia laughing and saying “He’s my brother.”

Scene plays out as intended. Both scenes are now dramatically consistent with each other and make Han less of an idiot while still making him humorous.

Even in ESB it’s not really a love triangle, as the only reason she’s kissing Luke like that is to piss off Han. It’s not because she WANTS to kiss Luke (although yes, there’s that deleted scene where she DOES, and then they’re interrupted - but since that’s gone, and Return of the Jedi exists…)

I think it’s possible to go straight from Han saying “Hey, what’s going on?” to Leia saying “Hold me” and the scene works just as well. No argument, Han still looks bewildered by Leia’s reactions without there being a dumb fight in between that highlights a silly plotline that shouldn’t exist, AND you lose some of Carrie Fisher’s absolute worst acting, ever.

You could probably take the “Hey, what’s going on” dialog out of its shot, dub it over the approach Han makes (it’s virtually the same) of him saying “I’m sorry” and just let the scene end like it always did (“Hold me”) The edit would be mostly audio, not video.

I personally would find the repeat of TLJ music from the climax to be more distracting.

More distracting than the repeat of ANH music that was already repeated in TFA? 😃

Thanks for indulging the train of thought, though, especially since you didn’t have to.

Hal 9000 said:

Also, I’m going to see about brining Burning Homestead in a little bit earlier since I can’t move it later, so those first two notes before the Force theme can pack more of a punch.

Did the prior two mockups I posted using variations on the Force Theme not get seen, or did you just not like them?

https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1369914/action/topic#1369914

No hard feelings if you didn’t, of course, but the point I was making is that I don’t think Burning Homestead is the only possible option for music there. It doesn’t even have to be the only possible version of the Force Theme, for what that’s worth. With some subtle slowdown and stretch, the Force Theme use from The Last Jedi fits pretty well there, with the build to the lightning strike.

If the voice was a severe, disturbing distortion/warping of a regular gonk droid sound effect, with static and clipping introduced into the mix, it’d probably get the desired effect of being somewhat off-putting as opposed to being a quick gag at Threepio’s expense, which was the intent in 1983.

https://streamable.com/j4uynh

It doesn’t have to be THAT piece, is what I’m saying. It might have to be the Force Theme (which is what’s in that clip above), but the only thing it HAS to be is roughly 23 and a half seconds long from her grabbing the saber to her blocking the lightning.

Here’s another one

https://streamable.com/zd1zfq

Rodney-2187 said:

I’ve read that the 1080p blu-ray discs included in the 4k boxed set as well as the individual 4K releases were the new scan, but the individual 1080p discs are now just the old blu-rays repackaged with the new covers. Is this true?

The 1080p blu-ray-only releases were always the 2011 discs repackaged. They came out before the 4K set and releases, and were the first release to have the new packaging. That release was seen to be a backstock-clearing exercise more than anything.

The 4K set and their accompanying 4K individual releases have the same packaging design as the preceding blu-ray-only releases, but they are the only way to get the new scans on a blu-ray disc. You HAVE to buy a 4K release in order to get the new scans on a blu-ray as a pack-in.

I’ve always felt that if you’re going to cut the skipping, you have to also cut the references to it. It’s counterproductive to get rid of the sequence with the hypothetical “first-time viewer” in mind and then set up a situation where the first-time viewer now has to infer and recontextualize a reference to a now-deleted sequence that, to them, never existed in the first place. The edits are supposed to streamline and improve things. Leaving in stray references to stuff and then hoping they’ll do the heavy lifting FOR you is precisely the kind of storytelling decision most fan-edits set out to fix.

If you’re cutting Lightspeed skipping, just cut all the references to it. It’s the simplest, cleanest, and best possible way to go about it.

StarkillerAG said:

I think you’re the only one with these complaints.

…Again, I JUST SAID THIS SAME THING in an earlier post!

I’m not even trying to get what I want, I’m just explaining (to people who are directly asking me) why I feel the way I do. I already know I’m not going to get what I want. It’s not the first time I’ve been a minority opinion on a forum before, haha. 😃 I don’t know how many other ways to say that even when I don’t get what I want, I’m still going to enjoy what I do get, and I’m thankful and appreciative of the work (98% of which I think is spot on) that makes it available.

( But just because I give voice to the minority opinion doesn’t mean I won’t be proven right later, either 😉 )

No music playing in the scene at all, like you suggest, would just be weird and jarring for such a climactic moment.

OK, I don’t think I’d agree, but I do know that “weird and jarring” is exactly how I felt upon hearing that insertion of “Burning Homestead” for the third time into that scene. But I get it! Diff’rent strokes to rule the world (Hmmmmmmm).

Octorox said:

The prequels used tracked music constantly. I don’t think it’s really that big an issue.

I just said it’s not that big an issue, LOL.

But: trying to use the prequels (often frequently terrible) tracking practices as a positive example for anything doesn’t play well, for me. And again, I’m not even arguing against the practice of tracking music. I’ve said multiple times now that the tracking of Burning Homestead in TFA worked. It’s the specific choice to use this single, already re-tracked cue again, and the way that re-tracked music is awkwardly inserted into the mix. On a technical level, it’s not good. On a thematic level, it’s threadbare and on-the-nose.

Usually, if Williams wrote music for a scene, it’s probably best to stick with what he wrote for that scene, or use nothing at all.

It’s definitely off. It doesn’t seem to be in the wrong key. It’s in the wrong key with the music surrounding it. The transition is off both going into and coming out of the tracked music.

Anyway, that’s my complaint with it. But my complaint is only worth so much, and it’s mostly only mine, so… hey! Honestly, the only reason I’m still hitting it is become someone directly asked. But after this, there’s really no reason to explain it again!

I still think the absence of music might work better than anything. But "Burning Homestead’ for a third time is just… it’s not good. In fact, I can’t think of a single piece of music that’s ever been directly tracked into as many key moments as that one will have been for this edit. It’s pushing it to do that TWICE.

What’s the issue with burning homestead again? It’s a nice callback to the first time Rey embraces the Force,

It’s an on-the-nose and now-overused callback, period. It was “nice callback” in TFA, and the repurposing of that specific rendition of the Force Theme (which probably shouldn’t have worked in that spot considering what it was intended to be scoring, and what Williams had actually scored for that moment) worked for THAT moment.

But for this moment, it’s so blatantly self-referential, and essentially a “Member-Berries” type insertion that it can’t help but pull focus from what’s happening, to what’s being EDITED, which is death for a fan-edit. It’s always a delicate tightrope to walk when your’e fan-editing, but “Burning Homestead” specifically - not the Force Theme, but that specific version of it - isn’t really doing anything but calling attention to itself as being a super-obvious echo of a better moment from a better movie, instead of actually scoring the feeling of the movie we’re all currently watching.

That’s my issue with it. I think it might be better to just let the moment stand starkly with no music at all than to keep trying to track in old music for that moment. I wonder if there’s a way to extend what Williams actually scored for that exact moment, too, but otherwise - Burning Homestead in that sequence just plays to me like fanservice, not dramatic payoff.

And again, the edit in the scene currently is in the wrong key, and isn’t merged well with the surrounding music cues on top of that.

StarkillerAG said:

Problem is, that music piece from TFA’s credits was already used in this edit, for the ending on Tatooine. I think that music is pretty much perfect in it’s current position, so I wouldn’t want to revert it back to the reused Force theme that was in the original movie.

Oh definitely, it was just an example of how much editing/changing would need to be done to make something fit there. That piece (a live performance by a completely different orchestra too) had to be pitched down a full step, stretched about 120%, and then the following piece that connects the edit to the Palpatine theme also needed to be timestretched and rearranged. All that to get less than 30 seconds of music to fit there, haha.

I’m thinking some remixed version of Rey’s theme would be the best fit for the ghost scene. I’m gonna look on YouTube to see if there’s any versions of the theme that fit the moment.

I think a version of the Jedi Steps might also work. But I also think NOTHING might work best too. Just thunder, lightning, echoes, breathing and the force ghosts flickering in and out of view.

That doesn’t answer the question in the hypothetical though, and that’s a question that absolutely would have been asked by basically anyone in the company thinking of agreeing to this vague “deal.” I simply don’t believe they were ever going to seriously consider using Verta’s single restoration of 1/3rd of a trilogy. It just doesn’t make any sense in terms of logistics.

Are we really to think 2020 was the last time we’ll see a new release of these movies?

On physical media? Sure. If only because I believe they’re trying to push people who want catalog product to Disney+ and Hulu.

They’re issuing DCPs of the 2011 blu-ray cuts to theaters and drive-ins now. They’re going to premiere Mulan on Disney+ for an added fee, and they’ll probably do the same for Black Widow later in the year if Mulan turns a profit (and it likely will). Disney is preparing for the death of theaters. They’re not really looking to save them - They’ve been doing THAT for the past 10 years already, and it ended up not really mattering in the face of this pandemic.

Stuff like an offical original theatrical Star Wars Trilogy restoration is absolutely going to be something they use to drive subscriptions to streaming, not to drive people to the movie theater. That’s the future we’re looking at.