BedeHistory731

I like that “two movies” idea a lot! I think I’d go about it a little differently, namely to allow Vader’s redemption a bit more development and show him trying to fess up to his mistakes. I like your ideas, Outbound Flight, so allow me to build off of them.

Episode III: Labyrinth of Evil

• Do the whole rescue of Han deal, working into Han and Lando trying to mend their relationship. It could be a good piece on how Han’s character has grown and the desire to take action rather than sit the Galactic Civil War out like Lando was content to do. You even have them tag-teaming Boba Fett to end their arc, with Fett dying pretty conclusively (e.g., not much left of his body).

• Have Vader fall out of favor with the Emperor (over space skype), as Palpatine replaces him with a new apprentice (call him Maul, because I’m not keen on prince pheromone from SOTE). Vader is a fugitive, with nowhere left to go in the Empire.

• Maul tracks the heroes down to Tatooine, with Vader in close pursuit. Vader uses this time to reflect on how Palpatine has thrown him away and how he must join with his son to defeat the Emperor. We get flashbacks to his time as a young man, before Palpatine took him under his wing (different from the Prequel setup, obviously). These are the first inklings that Vader might be regretting his choices.

• Vader finds Luke and Leia, telling them what has happened. He announces his intention to betray the Emperor by aiding the rebellion, which both Luke and Leia have some doubts about. While Luke can sense that Vader is serious, he sees that he’s doing it out of selfish reasons. Throughout the movie, as he feeds correct information to the rebels and helps out Luke and Leia, we see that he can be trustworthy yet still within the dark side.

• Leia sees how pathetic Vader is and how he had little autonomy under the Emperor. He couldn’t fight the order to destroy Alderaan, even if he tried. She sees him as a useful resource but believes that he should be condemned for his crimes against the galaxy.

• Pepper in some flashbacks about Vader’s past, with Luke learning his name from locals and confronting Vader with the revelation. He says the whole “That name no longer has any meaning to me” bit from ROTJ, but Luke doesn’t do the whole “true self” deal, not yet.

• The movie would end with the defeat of Jabba and Maul confronting Luke and Leia. Luke would be outclassed in the fight, with Vader intervening to kill Maul. It would confuse Luke, as he did not feel Vader acting through the dark side. We also might see Leia using the Force, inadvertently, for the first time since the ESB telepathy.

• Our last scene would be Luke and Vader at the ruins of the Lars Homestead. This is where Luke tells him about the good he sensed in him, begging his father to “come with him” and tease it out. Vader merely responds with “It is too late for me, son.” Luke would respond, “But is it?” The heroes travel back to the rebellion, while Vader remains and meditates on this discovery.

Episode IV - Return of the Jedi

• With Vader continuing to provide the rebellion with information from a distance, the Empire (now revealed as the “Sith Empire,” which invaded and conquered the Republic - borrowing another Outbound Flight idea) has been pushed to a few straggling planets, one of which is the Wookie homeworld of Kashyyyk. We see this through a montage of imperial worlds falling to the rebels and the destruction of Star Destroyers/imperial artifacts. Learning that the Emperor is aboard his skyhook orbiting Kashyyk, the rebels plan to attack.

• Han and Leia lead the strike team to take down the shield generator and allow the rebel fleet to engage the last of the imperials (think Jakku, but it’s Kashyyyk instead). Han and Leia’s arc revolves around Chewbacca, with Han believing him capable of convincing the Wookies and Leia doubting that an exiled Wookie will win them much support (Chewbacca led a failed rebellion that resulted in the enslavement of many of his kind, including himself).

• Yoda and Luke meet, with Yoda dying after telling Luke about the “other Skywalker.” Obi-Wan then confirms it to be Leia, while also telling Luke that turning Vader is impossible. Luke then joins the others with the rebel fleet, telling Leia about her origins and how she can use the Force to further the rebellion’s goals.

• Luke then tries to find Vader to help him face Palpatine. He finds Vader on Mustafar, the planet where he sustained the injuries that forced him into the life support suit. This is an opportunity for both a flashback (perhaps to his fight with Obi-Wan) and for Luke to remind him about the good he sensed in him. Vader tries to push that down, encouraging Luke to join him in the dark side. They resolve to confront Palpatine and overthrow him, albeit for different reasons.

• Perhaps Vader converses with Flashback!Anakin, in an inversion of the Dark Side Cave from ESB. He sees a vision of what he could be had he not turned, looking a lot like David Prowse.

• The Palpatine-Luke-Vader scenes play much as they do in our ROTJ, albeit with Luke and Vader coming to blows because Vader fears Luke will be too powerful for him. They fight, with Luke almost giving in to the Dark Side after Vader threatens to turn Leia. The rest of the scene plays exactly as it did before, with Vader realizing the good within him and tossing the Emperor into the skyhook’s reactor core.

• The ground battle plays much as did in our ROTJ, albeit with less cutesiness and more strategy from the Wookies. The shield comes down, with Leia coming around to Chewbacca’s plan and using the Force to help access and destroy the generator. No main characters die here.

• The rebel fleet attacks the skyhook and the fleet, as Lando leads them to destroy its core. The Executor also severs the skyhook from the planet, as a turned Vader uses the Force to influence Piett to ram the ship.

• Our ending is the same, albeit with no jealous Han and Ewok cutesiness. The spirit of Anakin (Prowse) appears to Luke, with Leia catching a glimpse of him as well. Music would be a triumphant version of “Luke and Leia.” The camera pans up and into the stars, starting the credits.

TL;DR: Draw out Vader’s turn, have him act in ways that help undo the Empire’s damage, and give him more moments of reflection. A bit Zuko-ish, but it works. Tangentially, give Han more of an arc with Lando and Chewbacca, while also letting Leia use the Force more.

I agree with adding some EQ. If none of that works, might I suggest reaching out to a guy who can do a good Vader impression? Here’s one, Jesse Gomez:

His reading of the Luke/Vader scene is pretty good.

adywan said:

The big problem when stitching together dialogue is , if the intonation isn’t quite right, it can throw things off. To me, this sounds unnatural. Great work though. I have a great Vader impersonator that has offered to record some dialogue for me so, if i decide to change the line, it will be re-recorded .

That sounds fantastic to me! Does this person have some Vader impressions publicly available (e.g., on a Youtube page)?

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

This is quite nice, Sir Ridley. However, I don’t think this single line spells it out to the audience. I hope Adywan will consider this for his edit:

https://youtu.be/4QwE5iaDALQ

Fantastic! Of course, like many ideas, LEGO Star Wars beat us the punch.

I kind of like the extra-deep rendition as well. If anything, we’ve given Adywan a fantastic demonstration that such a change is doable. I’m curious, what were your sources?

I’d say it’s better from a flow perspective, but I do think Broom Kid has a point about my tweaks to version seven. I added no reverb and slowed the whole line down, not just the first part. I thought that applying the effects universally made it less obvious, while also giving it some natural pauses. Redoing Vader’s breathing sound effects could help patch it up a little, as well as a little EQ to reduce any “artificiality.” Thankfully, Ady is a talented enough audio editor to improve the work that Sir Ridley (and myself, a little bit) have done here.

It’s fantastic that such a change is both doable and can work very well with available clips and footage.

Hal 9000 said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Incremental improvements are often the difference between something that works for a fan edit and something that is completely seamless and looks/sounds like it always belonged.

The painful truth.

That’s why I could only cut “I must obey my master,” since Vader turns. Cutting the scene with Vader facing away from Luke breaks the 180 rule.

The timing of the line works now, but the clip needs a bit of a push to get it to sound perfect. You’ve done a fantastic job thus far, Sir Ridley!

Sir Ridley said:

NeverarGreat said:

While the latest version sounds pretty good, there’s no escaping that his reading of ‘mother’ is too fast for the scene. I did a search of all instances of the word ‘mother’ in the New Testament and came up with 92, some as the last word of a sentence. Surely there’s a slower reading in there?

It’s based on pieces from his Bible reading (I don’t remember which part), and he reads quite quickly. I’ll see if I can drag it out a bit, the problem is that the sound quality gets worse if it’s stretched too much.

Jedit:
New slower version. https://mega.nz/#!acsDjCYL!gQoGGPf4xwWMvGe1XKGMKi86g3KXklZmTP9uS-FTUE0

I think you’ve nailed it. Here’s it in movie form.

Also, here’s a bit of fun, courtesy of Conan the Barbarian.

Tantive3+1 said:

Listening to the “Your mother…” clips and from picturing how the ending for ROTJ:R will be shows how this edit shouldn’t just be about the technical stuff but on what would give the story more depth.

Exactly! I support changing the line to “Your mother…” for a variety of reasons.

• If we don’t acknowledge the Prequels, it gives Luke and Leia’s mother/Anakin’s wife more of a role in the story.

  • It implies that Vader still thinks about her, which would give him both a sense of regret and reveal to the audience that there may be some love within him.
  • The change also makes the difference between Obi-Wan and Luke’s stances towards Anakin/Vader more marked. It implies that Obi-Wan never thought Vader could be saved, which makes Luke’s achievement more remarkable.
  • Vader’s tie to the light becomes more about love. He may have been like a brother to Obi-Wan, but he never loved his master in the same way he loved his son or the mother of his kids.
  • One edit used “Padme…” instead of “Your mother…” for the line. I don’t like this nearly as much since the name “Padme” means nothing to Luke. He’s never learned his mother’s name, nor would a subsequent line clear it up.

• If we acknowledge the Prequels (say, Hal9000’s edits), it gets the movies to line up a little more.

  • While finding information, I discovered a clip of James Arnold Taylor and Mat Lucas which shows Obi-Wan trying to save Anakin. It’s taken from the ROTS videogame. So, if somebody wants to put that in a prequel edit or a flashback in ROTJ, there you go.

I like the improved version! I do agree that adding the tinny undertone and maybe a pause would help. I experimented with adding a pause when playing around the version seven clip and I liked the idea behind it.

I’m trying to handle some of it, but I keep running into it sounding unnatural when I try to separate the different parts of Sir Ridley’s clip. Here’s one that incorporates the reverb and some additional fading/other items.

Streamable

I’m not a big audio editor, so I suspect that it still sounds rough. It’s doable and a more talented editor can find better clips/equalization/reverb effects to make it work. I would suggest finding a clip where James Earl Jones says a drawn-out “mother” (probably from his Bible audiobook). One of the more audio-minded people here could really make this idea a reality for Adywan’s edit.

I’ve given it a tweak, using the normal speed “once thought as you do” and adding a pause between the two parts. I don’t think I like it as much. While adding a “but” between the two lines would work, I couldn’t find a clean enough clip of Jones saying it as Vader.

Here’s the new one. Again, I’m sure Adywan or another sound editor could make it sound cleaner and better edit the music around eliminating “I must obey my master!”

Excellent work, Adywan! I’m glad to see that the skies have really improved from the SD version. The claw grasping the Tantive IV is also an excellent touch (I’m assuming you’ve resized the model or given it a CGI replacement as well, yes?), as is the use of 4K77 footage on the 3PO/Sandcrawler shot and the scanned matte painting of Tatooine. I do like that you kept the battle droid carcass as the last little prequel reference if only to demonstrate your opinions on those movies.

ray_afraid said:

K4YR4H said:

any plans to go back to ANH and implement the SC38 reimagined fight by FXitinPost?
(probably slowing it down a bit to fit the pacing)

I’m so ready for this question to die.
SC38 is awful.

Indeed. It’s a downright trashy video game cutscene.

I liked how Adywan recut the scene. If he just cuts down on reused shots and tightens up some of the longer bits of the original, it’d work.

I’ve been experimenting with trimming “I must obey my master!” while also incorporating Sir Ridley’s “Your mother once thought as you do” (albeit slowed-down). What prevented me from deleting “You don’t know the power of the Dark Side” was both Vader’s turn and making sure that Luke’s follow-up line made sense. The edit is a bit rough, but I’m sure Ady can do better working in the 5.1 mix.

Here it is.

I was perfectly happy with how Ady re-cut the sequence, especially in the Purist version (no added music). It could use some tweaking to make the re-use of shots slightly less obvious in some cases.

My biggest problem with Adywan’s re-edit was how he had Obi-Wan ignite his saber first. To me, that doesn’t fit with the character or Kenobi’s goals in the movie. It just looked like a “cool” shot done for the trailers way back when. My suggest would be to have Vader with his saber already ignited (to keep the cool shot) or to have it like the SD version (albeit with Obi-Wan igniting his saber as in the official versions, just with the jump cut fixed).

JEDIT: There’s also this warped pylon that might need fixing:

ChainsawAsh said:

RoccondilRinon said:

DarthXenu said:

I’m also wondering how we all feel about deleting the line “It is too late for me, son.”

Personally I love that line, a great bit of voice acting and really adds depth to Vaders character. Makes him seem real rather than just a cut and paste bad guy. I remember seeing it at the cinema on first release and thinking, wow maybe, just maybe Luke can get through to his Dad.

Agreed. It isn’t telegraphing his later turn or creating some kind of illogicality. I think it’s one of his most important lines, in terms of the insight we get into his character.

Ady, if you mess with this one, we riot.

+1

Yeah, I like the line too. It’s the first crack we see in Vader’s resolve, furthered by his stare at the gantry window. I was kind of spitballing, as a lot of us seem to be torn about some of the dialogue choices in ROTJ. I saw that line appear on a few cut lists and was curious about where we stood on it. I’m glad we’re in favor of keeping it!

The Luke/Vader stuff doesn’t really need any dialogue trims.

Yeah, this exercise can snowball pretty quickly. 😉

DuracellEnergizer said:

OutboundFlight said:

I’ve never liked “Obi-Wan had a second apprentice, one named Vader the other Anakin, both turn evil, and then one dies while the other secretly survives.

It feels awfully contrived, and distorts the meaning of the PT to benefit the plot twist in Empire. The PT is all about Anakin’s turn to the dark side as a parallel to Luke’s resistance to the dark side, and both are symbols of the galaxy - in the PT, the Republic falls to the Empire, in the OT, the Rebels resist the Empire.

Removing Anakin’s proper turn to evil is (imo) the equivalent of removing Luke standing up to the Emperor. Instead, we’d just show Vader rising and overthrowing the Emperor, leaving Luke’s story in limbo, until a plot twist in Episode 8 reveals Luke did the right thing. It doesn’t work. Likewise, adding a second apprentice even if to support Obi-Wan’s lie would be the equivalent of adding in a new character (Luke’s sister?) for the sole purpose of having us wonder who will redeem Vader.

Now, this is all implying Lucas’ vision of the PT. It could have been set from an entirely new character’s adventures / struggles and not Anakin, in which case maybe he could have showed up in the first film and then been seemingly killed. But as long as the trilogy is about Anakin’s fall or Obi-Wan’s failure, I don’t think you can thematically justify keeping the plot twist.

A good reason fanedits of the PT should be made with the intent of dampening the flaws/improving the strengths of the PT rather than ironing out the continuity between the two trilogies. Myths of old have internal inconsistencies, as do modern ones; we should embrace and work within that condition rather than fight against it.

I just like having the spoilers of the OT intact, which would probably necessitate a “3-in-1” edit stuck between ESB and ROTJ in viewing order.

OutboundFlight said:

I’ve never liked “Obi-Wan had a second apprentice, one named Vader the other Anakin, both turn evil, and then one dies while the other secretly survives.

It feels awfully contrived, and distorts the meaning of the PT to benefit the plot twist in Empire. The PT is all about Anakin’s turn to the dark side as a parallel to Luke’s resistance to the dark side, and both are symbols of the galaxy - in the PT, the Republic falls to the Empire, in the OT, the Rebels resist the Empire.

Removing Anakin’s proper turn to evil is (imo) the equivalent of removing Luke standing up to the Emperor. Instead, we’d just show Vader rising and overthrowing the Emperor, leaving Luke’s story in limbo, until a plot twist in Episode 8 reveals Luke did the right thing. It doesn’t work. Likewise, adding a second apprentice even if to support Obi-Wan’s lie would be the equivalent of adding in a new character (Luke’s sister?) for the sole purpose of having us wonder who will redeem Vader.

Now, this is all implying Lucas’ vision of the PT. It could have been set from an entirely new character’s adventures / struggles and not Anakin, in which case maybe he could have showed up in the first film and then been seemingly killed. But as long as the trilogy is about Anakin’s fall or Obi-Wan’s failure, I don’t think you can thematically justify keeping the plot twist.

Well first off, neither one would be named Vader until after we see the suit. The second pupil character can be a natural part of the story from TPM, say Obi-Wan’s apprentice/partner before Anakin shows up. You already have the seeds of a rivalry and resentment between Anakin and the second apprentice, which can both fuel their turn. It wouldn’t just aid the mystery, but it would also add a bit of a familial dynamic to the main characters (Obi-Wan, Anakin, and the other apprentice; with Padme to the side). That would make the fall all the more tragic and kind of flip the OT’s themes (instead of the “rebel family” coming together, it’s the “Jedi family” falling apart).

I don’t think it’s contrived at all. We can see both apprentices fall in a way that satisfies the parallel to Luke standing up to the Emperor. You can imply that they both want to serve Sidious, without actually showing them bow to Sidious and receive the name.

You do bring up a good point about the “Obi-Wan’s failure” theme, as he should have been the main character of the Prequels. We see through him how he tried to train these pupils and failed, fuelling the fall of the Jedi and his exile to Tatooine to care for the offspring of Anakin (the other pupil would have been childless). It fits within GL’s general structure of the Prequels to center on Kenobi and you can work the story in a way that preserves the ESB twist.

ChainsawAsh said:

BedeHistory731 said:

If we go with the “he’s already wearing the suit” option, perhaps he fought the other pupil and they both sustained substantial injuries before Palpatine intervened. With it left ambiguous who truly lived, Vader would seek out Obi-Wan

Yep, that’s pretty much how I’ve always wished it had gone.

I don’t think it ever would have been possible to do the prequels while keeping Yoda’s appearance a secret, though. And that’s not a big enough reveal in Empire that the audience knowing who Yoda is before Luke causes that much of a problem IMO.

Indeed. It gives the whole scene a nice bit of situational irony, as we know that it’s Yoda but Luke doesn’t. Had the Prequels preserved Yoda’s sense of humor and general OT characterization, it’d be kind of funny.

However, I’ve still thought of ways to do the Prequels without Yoda appearing (he’d be mentioned a bunch, but never manifest in the flesh). These include:

-he’s exiled himself away from a corrupted Jedi Order, with Obi-Wan as his last pupil
-he was exiled by the Jedi Order for not siding with their current policies (which, if we’re talking release order viewing, should give viewers a perspective on the latter days of the order), with Obi-Wan taking his side in policy matters (a la Qui-Gon/Dooku in the Prequels)

Of course, have it be so that only Obi-Wan knows where he is. That way he can call him up via Force skype.

ChainsawAsh said:

BedeHistory731 said:

TMP - Age up Anakin to about 17/18.
AOTC - Give Obi-Wan another pupil, who is also tempted towards the dark side.
ROTS - Make it look like Anakin and the other pupil die about midway through the movie, with proto-Vader (mask, but no life support suit) taking his place.

YES to all of these, though I don’t think “no life support suit” is necessary for act 3 EpIII Vader.

I could go either way with that. My thinking about that final duel on Mustafar would be to have Obi-Wan fighting pre-suit Vader (mask with vocal distortion, but no breathing sounds or extensive cybernetics). This Vader, who is never linked to Anakin other than saying he destroyed him, would fall to his near-death onto the embankment of a lava river. This injury would render him quadriplegic (per the technical commentaries), leading to the immolation and the necessity for the suit. It could also be a way for the “Obi-Wan once thought as you do” line to make sense, as Obi-Wan tries to reach out to Vader and Vader chooses to fall to his death (I got the idea here). It’s like poetry, it rhymes! 😉

If we go with the “he’s already wearing the suit” option, perhaps he fought the other pupil and they both sustained substantial injuries before Palpatine intervened. With it left ambiguous who truly lived, Vader would seek out Obi-Wan and Padme. Padme would plead with this new man, trying to persuade him to come back to the light. He tries to kill her before Obi-Wan intervenes and starts the fight. Vader could also be immolated again here or trapped in something to allow Obi-Wan and Padme to escape.

Keeping Vader a mystery man in Episode III should have been a goal of the prequels (same with keeping Yoda off-screen and allowing Padme to survive the prequels on Alderaan with Leia). I like it when fanedits cut out Vader’s name and suit appearance from the film.

TMP - Age up Anakin to about 17/18.
AOTC - Give Obi-Wan another pupil, who is also tempted towards the dark side.
ROTS - Make it look like Anakin and the other pupil die about midway through the movie, with proto-Vader (mask, but no life support suit) taking his place.

ANH - Fix the Death Star plans graphics.
ESB - Include a line from Lando about Han endangering the people of Bespin (thanks, RougeLeader)
ROTJ - Replace the Second Death Star with a skyhook above a volcanic planet (basically Mustafar).

R1 - No puns from Vader.
Solo - No imperial officer giving Han his surname.

TFA - No Starkiller Base.
TLJ - No green milk scene.

Omni said:

darthrush did that for his edit, it’s pretty good. There’s also the moment right after Luke leaves the Ewoks and the gang to surrender himself to Vader.

The darthrush cutlist would be a good starting point for Ady to try more “radical” fixes to the movie. While I do like what darthrush did (especially in Ewok cutbacks and eliminating some of the cringiest moments), there are a few points I’m not keen about. Adywan probably won’t cut back Han’s banter to the extent of darthrush, nor will he keep the galactic celebrations or the 500 Nations-inspired theme.

I’m sure Adywan will release a color-corrected version of the blu-ray (using 2004 HDTV to remove blu-ray changes) when he finishes said corrections (like he did with ANH), so it should be easy for other editors to restore bits he cuts while maintaining seamlessness.

9/10

I highly recommend this documentary to anybody who is interested in the early days of vert skating and those interested in how a man can let fame go to his head and further screw-up his fragile mental state. There are some very disturbing images toward the end of the documentary, which didn’t feel too necessary, but I guess they further the point about how monstrous Rogowski had become.

ray_afraid said:

BedeHistory731 said:
deleting the whole “jealous Han” subplot

Yes, please! Han & Leia fall in love in Empire. That should be that.

All you have to do is cut Han showing up after Luke leaves for the base and shorten the Han and Leia scene at the end.

Leia: “He wasn’t, I can feel it.”
Han gives a surprised look.
Leia: “He’s my brother.”
Han and Leia kiss, with Han trying not to think about the incestuous smooch from a movie ago.

I don’t mind the callback to “I love you.” “I know.” in the bunker scene. It always struck me as Han realizing “This is why I love her so much. She can be just as devious as me!” I get why people don’t like it though.