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Why don't people hate the Palpatine re-casting in ESB yet despise Force ghost Anakin's re-casting in RotJ?

DominicCobb said:

Your_friendly_Imperial said:

DominicCobb said:
In the context of the whole saga, Hayden is Anakin. Sure, you can understand that Shaw is supposed to be Anakin, but the fact of the matter is he never once looked like that in any of these films. Not to mention, continuity-wise, Shaw is far too old to be playing Anakin (he still works as the unmasked Vader because his injuries, the suit, and the dark side have made him more decrepit). You can say that it doesn’t make sense that the ghost would look like he did decades before he died, but I’d argue it makes as much sense as an imagined fantasy version of older him.

Now, the other thing people complain about is that the Hayden footage was a costume test, and it doesn’t fit. This is true, and it’s a little janky, but it’s not that bad. Here’s the thing though. The people saying Shaw’s acting is not being respected? That’s silly. Shaw’s acting is intact, in his scene with Hamill. Shaw’s ‘acting’ in the ghost scene was literally just George telling him to smile at the camera. That’s it. He had no idea the context, what was going on, or why he was smiling. So I’d say that’s only marginally better than a costume test.

Ultimately what it comes down to for me is that Anakin/Vader shouldn’t end up with a ghost at all at the end of the movie, so both versions are stupid to me, personally.

He didn’t look that old as ghost. If we consider the Prequels Canon, Anakin should be in the late 40s/50s, not young like Hayden Christensen.

Sebastian Shaw was 77 at the time of filming, and, frankly, looks it. Anakin would only be about 45 according to the prequels. Shaw is way too old. Obviously Hayden is too young, but the idea is that he has reverted back to his pre-Vader self.

Could we deepfake a 40-something David Prowse over Shaw? That’s a proposal I’ve thought about for a while.

Still, with both changes - Adywan made ‘04 Emperor work, but the official version is awful; the Christensen ghost was a bad idea (but I get why) that was executed poorly. Give it to him now, use his full body, and make him act exactly like Shaw, then you’d have something. I’m not a fan of either’s execution, but I don’t mind the sentiment.

With this said, the originals should be available in similar quality to the SE - I only watch 4KXX, Despecialized, and Ady’s work for the OT.

4K restoration on Star Wars

ChainsawAsh said:

theMaestro said:

Though it might be worth comparing the framing of the Reliance demo reel. Because apparently the D+ streams are 2.39:1 vs. the normal 2.35:1 they have been on prior releases. I hope that this is only a quirk of the streaming version.

2.39:1 has been the actual 35mm anamorphic standard since about 1970, but 2.35:1 kept getting used for years even though it was no longer correct. All the OT movies probably should actually be 2.39:1. It’s pretty much an imperceptible difference between the two anyway.

You can really see that switch when comparing the Bond movies of 1965-71 and 1977-2002.

4K restoration on Star Wars

ChainsawAsh said:

The suicide scene is now significantly censored compared to the original.

Here’s the movie-censorship report - note that it has screenshots of both versions, and the original version is quite graphic.

Netflix’s statement:

We’ve heard from many young people that ’13 Reasons Why’ encouraged them to start conversations about difficult issues like depression and suicide and get help—often for the first time. As we prepare to launch season three later this summer, we’ve been mindful about the ongoing debate around the show. So on the advice of medical experts, including Dr. Christine Moutier, Chief Medical Officer at the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, we’ve decided with creator Brian Yorkey and the producers to edit the scene in which Hannah takes her own life from season one.

Ah yes, they should have consulted the suicide prevention people before allowing that scene in the show. That should kind of be the industry standard, don’t you think?

This does set up a poor precedent, but ultimately, I think we can let this one slide as long as the uncensored version is out there and people know that the alteration happened. I can see the point of the original’s graphicness, but I’m not sure it’s that great a deterrent for youth suicides.

JEDIT: While I do like the color grading on the 19SE, but I’d like to see how it’d look with a LUT to bring it more in line with our LPP references and other reference material.

My rancor question seems to have had a satisfactory answer since it does look like a recomposite (no matte lines that were there in '97). Thanks, Tobar!

Ranking the Star Wars films

My listing goes like this:


  1. ESB
    2 (a). ANH
    2 (b). TCW series

3. TLJ
4. ROTJ (it really should have been two movies)
5 (a). TFA
5 (b). Rebels

Funny Bad
6. AOTC (it’s the Space Fantasy version of The Room)
7. Solo (Do you remember the opening from Last Crusade? Well, what if it was the whole movie!)
8. TPM

9. ROTS (it suffers greatly because of the first two prequels lollygagging)
10. R1 (it’s just so dull)

Worst Ideas in Star Wars/Good Ideas that went Horribly Wrong

Making the Prequels with the attitude of “everybody knows the originals.” They should have assumed nobody knew anything going into it, teaching them along the way. That way, continuity with the OT would be respected.

The oddly unhealthy attitude towards women in the Prequels is iffy. Like that Pop Culture Detective guy said, “women lead to a loss of control for the hero, driving him to the dark side” (I’m paraphrasing here). It sounds like Lucas didn’t get his divorce out of his system that easily.

General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread

Mocata said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

So I rewatched that “SC 38 Reimagined” lightsaber duel for the first time since it was released, just to see if it was as bad as I remembered. Boy howdy, was it ever. And fans actually like this overwrought crap? And want it edited into the movie proper?

The same fans who think the Vader attack in Rogue One is the best scene in the franchise.

Those people are the worst.


Hal 9000 said:

The shot of the X-wings approaching the Death Star before everyone checks in is easily the worst SE update to the sequence. The extended shot of the ship models gliding across the screen looks less convincing than other, more dynamic shots elsewhere, and the R2 units look incorrect.
I wonder if it’d be feasible or desirable to create two more subtle shots using CG to approximate the two in the original version.

I like how the two shots became one in the SE, but I do agree that re-doing the bit to look more dynamic would be better. Also, one could suggest adding in different paint marks on the X-Wings, to better emulate the models. That way, Red 5’s nose stripes won’t change as much (and Ady will fix the wing stripes like he did the SD edition).


ChainsawAsh said:

Sifo Dyas said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’ve been experimenting with trimming “I must obey my master!” while also incorporating Sir Ridley’s “Your mother once thought as you do” (albeit slowed-down). What prevented me from deleting “You don’t know the power of the Dark Side” was both Vader’s turn and making sure that Luke’s follow-up line made sense. The edit is a bit rough, but I’m sure Ady can do better working in the 5.1 mix.

Here it is.

The “I must obey my master!” line you deleted is very important. It tells the audience Vader’s relation to the Emperor, as it tells a lot about the Sith master-apprentice relationship.
Deleting it is a huge mistake.

Strong disagree on this one.

Indeed. Why would Vader be planning to overthrow the Emperor in the previous movie?

The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread

Thinking back to the “Saving the Reveal” proposal - would it also work if a concealed face (via darkening) and recolored suit Vader still slaughtered the Separatist leaders as done in the movie? Changing the lightsaber’s color to red would help this, as would cutting the shots of Anakin and R2 leaving the ship on Mustafar. It resolves a loose end, while also being a good dramatic beat before Yoda vs. Palpatine.

I’d keep the references to “Lord Vader” in the scenes, which would work well for furthering the idea that this new “Vader” (who may be the old Vader, as we never see his face) is a/still is a serious threat.

The Original Radical Redux Ideas Thread

I’m liking the ideas, Dom and Rogue! Restructuring ROTJ’s bloated first part is a fantastic proposal. I rather enjoy opening with the Emperor’s arrival, followed by the truncated R2/3PO arrival and the dance number/the Leia!Boushh scene. It gives us a better Luke reveal and immediately increases the stakes for the Galactic Civil War plot. While I like the thought of opening on Dagobah, it doesn’t have the same urgency as opening with Palpatine’s arrival.

An insert shot of Han in carbonite during the dance number is doable, especially if it means deleting a shot of that ugly Snootles puppet (the one that prematurely reveals Lando, preferably). If we have to cut Leia and Chewbacca, perhaps insert shots of Boushh interacting in the palace after Oola falls down the pit. You could also cut Lapti Nek (Does the rancor need foreshadowing? Do we need that awful puppet of Sy Snootles on screen?), going from the droid torture to gunshots in the throne room. You’d have to tweak the establishing shot of Jabba to be more appropriate (re-insert part of the hologram scene?). I’m just spitballing a few rearrangement ideas.

The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread

RogueLeader said:

Good thoughts, Bede! I don’t have many specific ideas yet for TPM redubbings, but I think there is a lot of potential for some solid ideas, like you mentioned. I’ll have to rewatch some of those scenes again!


II: It is really hard to change much about TPM to help with the Lars stuff. The simplest idea I have so far is to imply Anakin has made trips back to Tatooine to visit his mother inbetween films. So when they go to Tatooine, they go straight to the Lars homestead. 3PO will immediately recognize Anakin instead of thinking he is a stranger. You then cut all the introductions, and go straight to their conversation at the dinner table. Maybe it would confuse people at first, but I think people could pick up on context that Anakin actually may have gone back and freed his mom like he said, and she married a moisture farmer. Since Anakin might actually have some kind of relationship with Owen and Beru now, Anakin’s line, “These are good people, you’ll be safe with them” actually makes more sense. Maybe this would contradict with the Jedi’s rules of attachment, but I’m sure something could be worked out.

That would totally make sense. It just needs a few line trims to make it work, perhaps an overdubbed explanation during the nighttime scene at Padme’s apartment, when Anakin talks to Obi-Wan about his mother.

III: Why do you think showing the empty tank preserves the mystery more than just seeing the cloudy silhouette of a figure inside? In my mind you would cut the shots of the tank draining, so we don’t know if the figure is human or alien. Sorry if I misunderstood you!

Yeah, my bad. I misinterpreted how much of the body we see in the bacta tank. Still, showing it again in III would be a good way to keep up the mystery.

Are you saying keep Anakin going back to Palpatine’s office? I think it is important that the last place we see Anakin is in the temple.

I was thinking for a moment that implying that Anakin died in the office would be a good idea, but looking back, it’s best that the last time we see him is the ruminations scene. I’m not sure what we would cut to after it, perhaps Cody receiving Order 66?

Thanks for your reply!

You’re welcome! I love what you’ve proposed, despite losing so much of III. I’m a fan of Auralnauts’ videos, so I like a good redub-heavy project. A lot can be done with the extant visual material and new FX shots (since consumer/prosumer-grade material can come close to what the Prequels looked like). It would be a good “chronological order” edit, if one doesn’t do what I’d like to do (Episode I - A New Hope, Episode II - The Empire Strikes Back, Episode III - Labyrinth of Evil (either Hal’s edit or a prequel three-in-one), and Episode IV - Return of the Jedi).

The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread

RogueLeader, I really like what you proposed! It does involve some creative redubbing, but it seems doable (Auralnauts’ videos made good work of it). Keeping the surprise does eliminate some of the more “emotional” parts of III, but I like that it keeps Anakin’s fate ambiguous while also presenting some ambiguity over Vader. There are a few points I’d suggest:

I: You mention the idea of making Obi-Wan a full-fledged knight - I think that you can make the element of doubt work through redubbing the council to hint that they’re aware of Obi-Wan’s failure with “Vader” and are reluctant for him to teach again. Heck, Maul/“Vader” could be evidence that “too old” apprentices go bad. It would be Qui-Gon vouching for his former pupil instead.

II: I’m not sure what exactly you’d cut from the Anakin stuff on Tatooine (easing PT-OT inconsistencies. It would likely depend on what you do with TPM.

III: I would suggest showing Grievous or Palpatine looking at a bacta tank at some point. If it’s clouded enough to hide the person inside it, you can imply that it’s either the apprentice or Grievous’ empty tank. That way, it keeps up the mystery. I like the idea of calling both Dooku and Grievous “Darth Tyranus” and Maul/Anakin “Darth Vader.” It does prove to be an issue with the “Rule of Two,” but removing said rule really isn’t a problem for editing (compared to the redubbing and some visual changes).

Adding Obi-Wan picking up Anakin’s lightsaber while examining the temple ruins could also work to explain how he gets it for IV.

While I do agree that this is far more work than simply changing around some episode numbers on the crawls to make it go ANH-ESB-ROTS (or a three-in-one edit)-ROTJ, it’s still a worthy venture. Good work, RougeLeader!

JEDIT: Perhaps Mace goes to face Palpatine, cutting to Anakin’s flight to the office once we see Palpatine draw his lightsaber. We keep the ruminations scene in, as it’s an important emotional beat.