Alderaan

I won’t be watching another Star Wars film until the OOT gets released in up-to-date high quality.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Star Wars:

*R2 does not have the ability to teleport behind rocks.

*Tatooine doesn't have magic rocks that appear out of thin air.

*Obi-Wan doesn't make noises like THAT.

*Greedo doesn't shoot first.

*Jabba doesn't send incompetent bounty hunters that miss at point blank range.

*Jabba doesn't send bounty hunters to kill Han, then let him off the hook.

*Jabba doesn't let Han step on him.

The Empire Strikes Back:

*The Emperor doesn't explain something to Vader they both already know.

*Vader doesn't act like a teenage girl coming home after curfew and feign ignorance lying to Palpatine's face.

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

Return of the Jedi:

*Jabba isn't the type to let bad fake looking CGI performers entertain him.

*Vader doesn't attempt standup comedy when he throws human batteries down into reactor shafts.

*Cities don't celebrate the destruction of their own military bases.

*Luke doesn't have visions of creepy pedophile looking teenagers he's never met before.

I might be missing some, but as you can see, the SE versions tamper with the original films in significant ways.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

"Star Wars" is such a true classic, it's ranked by the AFI as the 13th best motion picture of all time.  Watching the prequels first is like watching Casablanca, but first watching a parody of the movie that  gives away everything that is going to happen in the original, sapping a lot of the drama from it.  It's the same reason that people who record a football game don't want to know the final score before they go home to watch it.

It's pretty irrelevent when and if you see the prequels - as long as you don't see them before Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

Actually, watching the prequels first would be like watching a parody of Casablanca that tells you Rick and Ilsa had already met in America, then he knew she was married to Lazlo, with Jar Jar Binks inexplicably stealing 20 minutes of screen time as well. And then they tell you it's canon(!) for the real film.

Please, don't watch the prequels. RLM's reviews are all that is needed.

I would watch them in the order 4, 5, 6.

And stop right there.

I haven't seen the new Hobbit films and probably won't. I really liked The Fellowship Of The Ring when it came out, I must have been 19 or 20. But when I watched it again in 2010 I didn't think too highly of it anymore, and Peter Jackson is a terrible, terrible director in my opinion. I think if people go back and watch these films at an older age, they may form a different opinion, similar to how a lot of PT fanboys stopped liking those "movies" once they grew up.

Return of the King was absolutely insufferable when I watched it in 2003. Other than Viggo Mortensen's performance, there was nothing redeemable about that flick at all.

Was the site down for a few days?

On the bright side I saw the RLM prequel reviews for the first time. Can't believe I had never heard of them ... wow what a cathartic and entertaining experience.

By the time I went to see TPM in '99, I was 17 and super excited to see a new SW film on the big screen! Looking back, I was the same age as the target demographic for the OT. I expected the TPM to be good, and to look and feel like the originals, only it would tell a different part of the story. There would be new fight scenes that I could watch over and over again, new characters, new dialogue ... but still be a part of the OT family. That was the expectation I had walking into the theater in May 1999.

Unfortunately, TPM did not meet that expectation. I was not old enough, and could not accurately describe most of the film's problems like I can now, but needless to say everything felt wrong. The CGI ... why did everything look so much more advanced 30 or 40 years in the past? And why did the CGI look so fake? Thirty years later I can watch the OT and the practical effects look real, they never take me out of the movie, they only draw me in. But in TPM and the rest of prequels, the CGI immediately made me self-conscious that I was watching a video game film.

Later, Jar Jar popped up on screen and I suddenly felt embarrassed and uncomfortable to be sitting in the theater. Not only Jar Jar, but the Gungan boss, some of the other characters like the Trade Federation guys, they were so offensive and childishly depicted that I would have walked out of the theater if I could have. It no longer felt like I was watching Star Wars. And yet, there were still some things that carried over from the OT and appealed to me as a fan, so that by the end of the film, I talked myself into tempering my initial revulsion ... if only they had edited out Jar-Jar, the film would have been ok. Not nearly as good as the originals, but OK.

When I saw widespread criticism of Jar-Jar, I even convinced myself that Lucas would cut him from the VHS/DVD release!

----------

AOTC next came out in 2002, and I still hoped the rest of the PT would be good. Maybe TPM would just be the red-headed stepchild of the saga. Obviously, that didn't turn out to be the case, and AOTC was just as bad if not worse. By the time Yoda was spinning around like a flying monkey, I averted my eyes and no longer had any desire to finish watching what was on screen.

For me, that was the moment Star Wars died, when the wisest and most reserved character of the OT was turned into a cartoon.

On Thursday night in Los Angeles, Film Independent staged a live read performance of The Empire Strikes Back in front of 1,600 fans. Jason Reitman directed and provided the beeps for R2. The rest of the cast were:

Mark Hamill: The Emperor, Obi-Wan

Aaron Paul: Luke

J.K. Simmons: Vader

Ellen Page: Han

Jessica Alba: Leia

Rainn Wilson: Chewie

Stephen Merchant: C3PO

Dennis Haysbert: Lando

Kevin Pollack: Yoda

Some stories and pictures:

http://www.slashfilm.com/empire-strikes-back-live-read-recap/

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2014/12/19/photos-live-read-empire-strikes-back/

http://variety.com/2014/scene/news/star-wars-mark-hamill-live-read-empire-strikes-back-1201383345/

http://www.thewrap.com/jason-reitmans-live-read-of-the-empire-strikes-back-gets-a-surprise-guest-mark-hamill/

There is nothing wrong with the OT. People can take exception with the Ewoks, if they want, but I don't have a problem with them. Anyone talking about the need for faster or more choreographed lightsaber battles, get out of here with that please. Obi-Wan was an old man in Star Wars. Vader could have killed Luke anytime he wanted in Empire. And neither Luke nor Vader wanted to hurt the other in Jedi. There was dramatic tension with complex motivations in all of those duals.

In the prequels, there was no subtext to the fights. Just swing sticks at each other until the other person dies. Boring.

digitalfreaknyc said:

As opposed to my screening where people applauded.

 Ghastly. What the ...?

Looks better but still not close to right.

Probably a good idea for that scene to die in a fire anyway, because it's unnecessary after the scene between Han and Greedo.

I hate both and never watch the SEs.

You may have to update your flash player to see Harmy's pic. It was blank for me earlier in the week too, but I can see it now.

Do we actually know who came up with each and every idea? I think it's very unlikely that some of the more dramatic twists were ever conceived by George Lucas.

Windexed said:

This is the biggest conundrum for me when it comes to the idea of releasing an OUT on blu-ray. Everyone has a different opinion of what it should be ... Basically what I'm saying is there is no consensus, which is a potential problem.

Harmy said:

And to comment on topic - and I said this countless times before - in a case of a semi-special edition, who will decide what's still ok and what isn't - for someone the line could be drawn at matte-lines, to someone else it may be the windows in Cloud City and to yet another person a digital Dewback may be preferable to a stiff rubber figurine.

If a semi-specialized OOT were released, obviously the execs at Disney and LFL would make the calls on any changes, and they would only be interested in providing an optimal viewing experience for the original trilogy, as opposed to all of the ulterior motives Lucas had in the 1990s.

The mere undertaking of such a product, I would argue, would imply the desire to get it right.

Not everyone may get exactly what they want, but if Disney and LFL did it right -- and they would have every reason to do so -- most fans would be pleased with the final product.

AntcuFaalb said:

There's no consensus, but there's a very simple solution: scan an IP, grade to a good release print, fix annoying temporal anomalies (e.g., flicker), dirt/scratch clean, encode, and release.

I don't see how anyone can argue against a "this is the original, as it was" release.

I think everyone here wants the 1977, 1980, and 1983 original theatrical releases restored. It makes sense for Disney to do so both for historical purposes, and also from a business point of view. There's a market for it.

But releasing only the (unaltered) OOT probably doesn't maximize the value of the Original Trilogy.

Nor do the current SE's and their backlash, I'm sure we can all agree.

AntcuFaalb said:

If some fans want improved SPFX, then they can do it on their own with this kind of release

Most fans, I would argue, don't have the ability nor the time to make their own fan edits.

They just want to buy a packaged BluRay or DVD, pop it in, and watch on TV.

yoda-sama said:

The whole problem with this opinion Alderaan is arguing for is that there's no way, if his desired version existed, we'd get a proper untouched OOT.

So certain are you? Always with you what cannot be done.

If you could provide an explanation why a semi-specialized OOT and an unaltered OOT are mutually exclusive, maybe I would better understand your perspective. I see no reason why both can't be done at the same time.

yoda-sama said:

If support is being vocally thrown behind one or the other, it should be for the untouched OOT

I suspect this is the reason you are against the idea -- a fear that anything other than the (unaltered) OOT would diminish your chances of getting just that -- but I could be wrong? If that's the case, I'm taking the opposite side of that argument. Yes, it's historically important to restore the original theatrical releases, and there are those of us who would like to see them too, me included. But the largest segment of fandom and the population at large would probably be more interested in watching what camron and Harmy deemed a "Showcase semi-specialized edition".

Which, by the way, brings me to this whole post:

camroncamera said:

newly composited original elements (but no CGI embelishments), put together as a "Showcase" version for a modern DCP/Blu-Ray/4K, would be ideal for a wide release of the Classic cuts. Though CatBus makes a perfect point about preserving the film(s) as a product of their time (and where would Disney hypothetically draw the line should they decide to play in the Lucas sandbox?), I believe tidying up the original compositing would eliminate the biggest remaining distraction for modern audiences. Everything about set design, hairstyles, costumes, etc., should remain as it is, because, those are aspects that contemporary audiences *expect* to see, and will not find jarring, in the way that a blurry landspeeder (1970's VFX) or ronto creature (1990's VFX) would on a modern screen. In other words, cheap sets and costumes, by themselves, don't degrade the image quality in the way that photochemically-composited VFX may have (in some cases).

 ^^^This sums up my thoughts better than I could ever say them, thanks camron!

darklordoftech said:

All of Disney's alterations are either results of branching or in response to a claim that something is offensive/sexual/copyright-infringing, etc. Never has a non-branching "original version" had updated special effects.

Yeah but Star Wars ain't exactly Disney, if you know what I mean.

Ryan McAvoy said:

In a similar way, I wouldn't mind a stunning new transfer of the OT that corrected a few flaws Adywan style but stayed true to the original print in spirit. Having the original untouched version as well would of course be preferrable.

And finally, this post of yours Ryan brings me to a point I wanted to make last night but never got around to. Part of Star Wars's history was that for a generation, the effects were mind-blowing. Visual deficiencies were barely noticed or overlooked because 99% of what you saw on the screen was incredible. Those deficiencies should all be preserved in an (unaltered) OOT for historical purposes, of course. After all, that technology was a moment in time, and forever changed film-making.

But today and going forward, audiences don't share the same perspective. Most of the original trilogy looks timeless -- the effects and visuals have aged very well. But there are some things that stick out like a sore thumb, and the modern viewer will be distracted by these things more than those who were in awe at theatrical releases. For some, that causes them to lose their suspension of disbelief, which diminishes the story and entertainment value for new viewers. And for others, it's simply nice to have our favorite films look and feel like they are young again.

Wazzles said:

Alderaan, you make the assumption that nobody likes the SEs. That's simply not true, as you'll find a lot of people on here at the very least preferring the 97 SEs. I also, to a degree, like the SEs, but I don't think they should be the only version out there.

Hmm...maybe we are misunderstanding each other. I'm definitely not arguing for an SE-only version. I don't think it's an either/or proposition. I'm suggesting it could be a good idea to sell a disk or set that has two versions, one the OOT (unaltered), and one that is what the 97SE should have been all along -- namely useful improvements, and not all of the crap that pisses people off.

Of course not everyone will agree which changes (if any) were beneficial, but that's why Disney should offer both. If you don't like the cleaned up version, just watch the unaltered OOT, which needs to be restored for historical purposes anyway. Some people will even prefer to watch the theatrical releases. But if bright, shiny, and new is important, which it is to a lot of people, you can watch an updated version that still looks mostly like the original, but with some visual enhancement that doesn't change the story or act as an advertisement for LFL's 90s CGI junk.

If someone prefers the SE as is, well that's already out there. Disney could re-brand that as the Lucas Special Edition or something.

Yoda said:

No! No different. Only in your mind.

AntcuFaalb said:

I don't.

I appreciate that Alderaan took the time to address every reply point-by-point with a reasoned, coherent, and otherwise concise argument for his position.

 Thanks, AntcuFaalb. It's nice to see people can still disagree civilly on the internet these days.

CatBus said:

If you did a mashup of every comment that went "I think they should release the OOT but still including these certain Special Edition changes"

I'm aware of that argument, and how many tiny changes there have been made throughout the years. It's hard to keep track of them all. That's why I suggested to start over, just start from scratch and not factor the SEs into the picture at all. Just relegate them to their own product, Lucas's cut, which is what they are. Anyone who wants the SE can have it, it's already out there.

For the rest of us -- the majority of SW fans -- Disney could:

1) restore the OOT

2) from that, modernize the vfx

And whoever is in charge of the project would be making the final call on what gets altered, but if they are smart they would just clean up the picture, fix the sabers, things like that.

CatBus said:

rather than my experiences with other properly-restored films of the same era, or because Lucas said so", you'd get something a lot more concise.

I think watching Star Wars is a little different than watching something like The Godfather, don't you think?

AntcuFaalb said:

Laserdisc? '06 Bonus (GOUT) DVDs?

I never had LD growing up back in the day, just VHS until I got my dual VHS/DVD player. I vowed never to get the SE and when I heard about GOUT I was determined to just watch on VHS, fan edits, and the like.

AntcuFaalb said:

So they want amateurishly-bad color grading and DNR'd-to-hell PQ. Interesting.

That might be the take of someone with a discerning eye, but I think the majority of people watching Star Wars at home want it to look as close to a present-day release as possible. That's why most people still put up with the SE, after all.

adywan said:

I'd say that this is the LAST thing they would want

I'm just going to respectfully disagree and point out that the vast majority of people who watch the original trilogy watch the SE version on BluRay, DVD, and television, as opposed to VHS and fan edits like some of us. They hate the altered product and bitch about it, rightfully so, but they prefer *NEW* and shiny, the same way most people wouldn't be driving around in classic vintage cars, even if there were enough to go around.

Fang Zei said:

Unless Disney were to suddenly reverse GL's policy and make that the next/final version of the SE (which ain't gonna happen)

Why not? Lucas's SE is just a director's cut. There are countless films that have been released as studio versions and separate director's cuts. If Disney were smart, they would go back to releasing the original studio versions in perpetuity, and just rebrand the SE as Lucas's director's cut.

Fang Zei said:

I don't want to pay extra for what would technically be an altered version of the OT. I would never watch it.

Nearly everyone on this forum would buy the prequels, all of the SE's, and Ewok action figures ... if it meant that somewhere inside that box was BluRay of the OOT. I suggest finding the largest demographic of Star Wars watchers and riding their coattails might be the best way to get your hands on one.

Fang Zei said:

Besides, there are a lot of movies on blu-ray with effects that haven't been cleaned up and no one seems to mind. I think people realize a movie is a product of its time and don't let themselves get distracted by effects that look a little wonky today.

Some people mind, some people don't. It would just make sense for Disney to please everyone with as little cost and effort expended as possible. A disk or set that provides an updated OOT as well as a classic OOT would do just that.

twister111 said:

The differences between those two versions would be so insignificant as to not even be a viable option. I mean if you're going to have the OT really restored with matte lines and everything. Then some other version where the only difference is that the effects were digitally composited. It's really such a small difference that it's barely worth it to put it there. If there are options they'll probably be one of the SEs.

The problem is though that people -- in general -- don't like the SEs. They like the sleek look, but the nonsense changes and fake CGI have alienated many long-time fans as well as turned off potential new fans. If Disney sticks with the SEs, they are providing an inferior product and not maximizing what they've got.

The two versions I described might not seem that different, but fans have "sticky" tastes. Small differences can mean a lot.

The best approach for Disney is to provide an official version:

1) "cleaned up" OT

2) along with OOT (what everyone here wants)

And also provide the SE's as Lucas's director's cut.

Then everyone is happy, including everyone here who wants the OOT.

Tobar said:

Alderaan said:

 Most people don't want the official BR. They also don't want the OOT looking like it did in '77-83.

 Considering most people I've come across who are casual fans of Star Wars still hold onto their VHS copies, I'm gonna take that statement with a grain of salt.

I have my VHS copies too, but that's only because something better hasn't been released in a newer format.

Wazzles said:

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but that will definitely not happen. There is no way. What's more likely is just the 2011 versions and the OUT in the same set. Both Disney and Fox are going to want to show respect to Lucas, and releasing a version like that would be pretty disrespectful. I think for something like that, fan edits can take care of. Also, no matter what we get, I can't imagine Luke's scream would make a return, unless of course they release the 97 SE. And Harmy's example is the official Blu Ray.

 Most people don't want the official BR. They also don't want the OOT looking like it did in '77-83. They just want the OOT version looking like the official BR does now. That's the largest untapped market Disney has, and it's just fruit hanging from a tree for them. The official BR they have now could be considered Lucas's director's cut, and they re-release the new versions as official.

SilverWook said:

They are so many little changes in the SE's, not just new FX, that seamless branching both versions would be fairly complicated. What was done with the new TOS FX was very simple by comparision.

Better to have each version on a separate disc, so there are no SE changes leaking in.

 Wook, I'm not talking about Lucas's SE garbage. What Disney should do is restore the OOT and then approve new LFL enhancements (from scratch) for an updated version.

Easy on the enhancements though! New composites fine.

Story changes, CGI additions, and all crap most people hate about the SE ... no!

They can sell that and just branch two versions ... the new 2015 enhanced version, which would be just a sleeker, better looking OOT like in Harmy's example above, and the original original.

Just like that copy of Star Treak season 1.

Handman said:

Kind of like what they did with the Star Trek TOS Blu-ray sets!

Yeah would be similar, wouldn't it? Do it Mouse!

Handman said:

 I didn't know American Graffiti was getting a 3D release!

We should have bitched about all of his other films too.

Maybe he would have gotten pissed and ruined all of them.

NeverarGreat said:

Alderaan said:

It just occurred to me, when Lucas last restored the original negatives, it had been 12 years since Jedi and 18 years since Star Wars, and they were said to be in very bad shape.

It has now been almost 20 years since the last OOT restoration (which was later converted into the '97 SE).

What are the chances that the negatives and fx are in even worse shape than they were in '95?

If the RMW 4K work is from a 'new' scan of the original elements, it would seem that the negatives are not much changed from what we've seen, however the lightsaber effects have continued to degrade, again, from the short snipped that we've seen.

I was under the impression that it was a scan from the 2004 SE that was to be used for 3D Lucas-graffiti releases that are now abandoned?

Harmy said:

Not really - you have that mixed up with matte boxes - those shouldn't be visible under ideal conditions but the matte-lines were always there (not in all shots - depending on how successful the compositing was).

Look how completely different this digitally recomposited shot looks for example:

And yes, the new composite does look better/more realistic, but so do the new digital matte-paintings and some people might argue, that CGI Dewbacks look better than immobile rubber figurines, so where does one draw the line? The above shot shows quite clearly, that re-compositing a shot digitally is definitely altering the original shot in a major way.

Fang Zei said:

Are people really gonna care, though? Yeah, they'll probably notice the matte lines, but they'll also notice a lot of other stuff that was changed.

Yes, I think people will care. Most people want to see the original films, but enhanced for modern home theater entertainment purposes. What Disney should do is release an OOT set with with two options for each film:

1) Cleaned up OOT ... basically what the SE versions should have been all along. No Greedo shooting. No rock in front of R2. No CGI Jabba. No CGI inserts AT ALL. No Boba Fett mugging. No Luke screaming. No Jedi Rocks. No Hayden Ghost. etc. But with the new composite look above.

This is what I think most people want. Just an up-to-date modernized HD home viewing experience of the original movies.

2) OOT Theatrical Release

For the purists, who should absolutely have the option to watch the theatrical versions, matte lines and all.

Kind of like how the 2006 release had the SE as the feature and GOUT as an extra bonus, purists' best shot is to get a cleaned up OT as the feature with OOT as an added bonus. jmo