Alderaan

Hence baronlando's post.

YMMV. Much like some of the prequel fanboys, I liked them more when I was younger and found myself bored to death and rolling my eyes upon rewatching. Actually I always hated the Return of the King.

No boy or man wants to see their father looking younger than them anyway.

DominicCobb said:

Except the Shaw ghost looks very little like the Anakin that Luke would recognize.

 ???

It's the exact same actor only, without lava-head. The two appearances look similar enough, and most everyone thought so for over 20 years and still does.

I'm still waiting for the 108 page thesis proving the validity of Hayden force head.

Fink, I've got some bad news for you. The human brain stops maturing at about 25. If you haven't grown past the "oooh look at all the flashy things" stage of your life by 30, it ain't gonna happen by 40.

I don't find slow paced, exposition stuffed, overacted films much interesting.

The editing in LOTR particularly makes me want to throw up.

He didn't save the teenage brat with the creepy look on his face. Imagine trying to go back and tell your 18 year old self everything you know at an older age. What do you think your 18 year old self would tell you? Probably to kick rocks and buzz off. The insufferable Anakin of the prequels was never redeemed.

Luke "saved" the old guy in the black suit. Old Anakin was the last good Anakin.

The only reason for that change was to shove prequel imagery deep down into your eye sockets.

MacFarlane is hit or miss for me, but he does have a tendency to run a joke into the ground until it's not funny any more. Haven't seen the Star Wars Robot Chicken stuff, but their regular material made me change the channel fast.

Fang Zei said:

RMW (Reliance Media Works) not RLM (Red Letter Media).

Reliance in my head, RLM in my fingers. Sorry!

Still, my question stands. I saw they restored a trailer. Curious if there's any proof they scanned the original films or only worked on trailers and bonus material.

I came across a cleaned up SW trailer from RLM somewhere on Youtube and forgot to post it here. Is it possible they only worked on trailers and bonus material like that instead of the actual films?

^^He has a history of being a dick to his employees and fans alike. I'm not saying he murders puppies or anything in his spare time, but no amount of money can make up for whatever bad things he's done in his life to people (like we're all guilty of). It's just that being rich doesn't give you a license to do whatever the **** you want and then throw money at people.

Having an inspired, unique story to tell and telling that story in an inspired, unique way are exclusive of each other.

George Lucas seems to me like someone who had an inspired, unique story to tell but was incapable of presenting it in an attractive, professional manner. Whereas someone like Kershner didn't really have any innovative groundbreaking vision, but when paired with someone who did, he had the ability to take that story to another level through superb command of his craft.

TV's Frink said:

Yeah, giving all that money to charity is the work of another Hitler, no question.

That's some kind of moral code to think you can commit whatever sins you want and still buy your way into paradise or even a clean conscience.

The Catholic Church sold indulgences for centuries.

It's also pretty well known that he's about the biggest dick on the planet, unless you're a sycophant.

A truly disgusting human being.

TV's Frink said:

That's like saying Laserdiscs will always be around.  While technically true, they've been relegated to the domain of the collector alone.

That's not really the same analogy. Anyone who argues that physical will disappear is basically saying the same thing as "writing will not exist one day because everyone knows how to type."

Robot chicken? Awful. Not surprised Detours is a failure.

Fang Zei said:

It's a sign that physical media is sticking around for at least a little longer.

 Physical media will always be around. There will always be a market for it.

Digital d/l and physical are not an either/or proposition.

DominicCobb said:

Besides that you're missing the fact that this SE change adds highly unnecessary footage and RUINS THE MUSIC. Enough said. Awful change.

So right. The ruined pacing from that new cut is the worst change of all.

Exhibit A that while Lucas may be able to create the background of a story, he can't tell one for ****.

imperialscum said:

It seems it is pointless since we just have different opinion on the whole matter.

It may be pointless but there's no harm in civilly discussing a topic.

I find it interesting in your response to Ryan you only mentioned "his plan". "Plan" again. And so on. You say you understand the emotions going on in the scene, but you didn't reference any. You simply kept coming back to an agenda, as if Vader is a static character merely trying to succeed in his goal.

What I'm trying to point out is that, unlike Star Wars, Vader's character is not presented in a static way in Empire. There are a series of setups and payoffs that painstakingly try to humanize him and make emotional changes in him plausible. Entire scenes and lines of dialogue earlier in the film were specifically created so that Vader would seem like a human being capable of vulnerable emotions by the end of the film ... but you are arguing that he was a 2-dimensional "calm and cool" character just trying to get his job done.

It's clear the scriptwriter did not feel the same as you. And if you listen to the subtext conveyed through the changing intonations of Vader's voice during the Bespin duel, it's clear James Earl Jones did not agree with you. And if you listen to the increasingly explosive sound effects and visual fx during that duel, it's clear the people creating those effects also espoused the view that Vader's emotional outburst was growing and swelling as the duel proceeded towards its climax.

It's highly unlikely that all of those people shared the same interpretation by mere coincidence.

All in my opinion of course.

imperialscum said:

No, getting hit in his shoulder is irrelevant. The plan was to corner Luke and disarm him in order to persuade him to join him. He came to this point when the they moved to the very edge of that small platform. Regardless of Luke hitting his shoulder, there was no space and no reason to prolong the fight.

I don't think you've explored the emotional depth in this film to its full extent.

Further, the thing that really bothers me is that the screenwriter, actors, and other producers (like Kurtz) ... as well as the sound effects and visual effects people ... ALL understood these complexities and put them in the original film.

George Lucas obviously did not understand these complexities, and retroactively took them out of the film, turning scenes and dialogue from 3d to flat.

imperialscum said:

I can... but anger is not one of them. Well at least not on Vader's side.

And losing patience in a sense of swiftly ending the fight has nothing to do with anger. He came to the point where Luke was physically cornered and he had move to the final step of his plan.

You said this and also something about Vader being cool and calculating (which he is) but his characterization is not flat and cartoonish in Empire like it was in Star Wars. There's a reason why he's shown in his pod on the Executor -- it's to give his character more depth. He's sneaking around behind the Emperor's back. He's personally going down onto Hoth to apprehend Skywalker himself. The whole thing is personal. He starts the film obsessed with Luke and ends the film even more obsessed with Luke.

Neither is the Bespin duel a flat scene. As in all good film scenes, Vader the character changes from beginning to end. It's not a static good guy and bad guy trying to overcome each other fight. Vader starts out with tons of patience. He wants the fight to drag on. He wants to see what Luke is made of. He expresses disappointment when he thought Luke had fallen into the freezing chamber so easily. There's a glee in his voice when he realizes Luke escaped and the fight could go on.

After awhile though, he's clearly getting annoyed at Luke's resistance and wants to end the fight as quickly as possible. Watch the manner in which he violently swings his lightsaber during the final stanza of the fight. Listen to the sound effects, how increasingly explosive they sound. The subtle inflections to Vader's voice. He's annoyed and the uncontrollable rage is slowly building within him. And yet, when he overpowers Luke, he still doesn't harm him. He simply holds the blade in front of Luke's face and threatens him. Luke fights back and physically hurts him, and that sends Vader over the edge. He chops off Luke's hand and has to hold back when he says "don't make me destroy you." --If you listen carefully, I've always thought those words sounded different than Vader's previous empty threats. He really kinda actually means it that time. But then again, he pulls back, and his next lines are filled more with exasperation and pleading than anything else.

imperialscum said:

It is not seething... it is disappointment.

I don't think Vader ever expresses any disappointment until he walks off the bridge of the Executor at the end of the film. When he leaves Bespin, he's still trying to cool off from the fight. He's not acting like a madman, but when he says "bring my shuttle" he definitely sounds like someone who is not happy and just got done fighting an emotional and draining battle. The change to "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" just sounds like someone who was doing their every day job. The entire film worked tirelessly to humanize Vader and make his obsession with Luke personal. The change in dialogue, thus, does not match.

The Bespin duel can be divided into three parts.

1. Vader toying with Luke (he can kick his *** at any moment)

2. Vader turns the screws a bit by using the dark side

3. Vader finally gets annoyed and loses his patience

It's in the last stanza of the fight that he stops screwing around and just starts wailing away at Luke. He's clearly pissed off and mad and lost his cool. After he severs Luke's hand, you can hear the anger in James Earl Jones's voice.

The same thing happened in the ROTJ duel. They are just kind of fighting in front of the Emperor for awhile, then Vader threatens Leia, Luke uses the dark side and just starts physically wailing away at Vader with pure rage.

You can't pick up on the emotional changes in these fights?

I'm not proposing anything. I just know that I won't see another Star Wars film unless Disney releases the OOT, and I wonder how many other people might feel the same.

imperialscum said:

Alderaan said:

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

That is one of the best changes in SE. The original scene with dumb anger mood completely contradicted the character of Vader as presented throughout the film. He was an intelligent villain, not some angry moron. Nothing seems to be able to upset him and that is what makes him even more cool.

He was being failed most clumsily by his officers and yet he showed no anger when he was executing them. On contrary, he did it with sarcasm, wit and style... making clam remarks like "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" while choking the guy to the death.

And the original scene also contradicted the scenes that follows. On the Star Destroyer, Vader is very clam and his primary emotion seem to be disappointment. There is no sign of any anger. He doesn't even choke Piett and instead he simply just leaves the bridge in silence.

Just ... no. Mother damn it no. Holy **** NO!

You must have missed the part where Vader lost his patience and went from toying with Luke to wailing away at him like a madman. Then raised his voice and inflected it with anger. Etc.

No, the duel sucks because it only involves wooden characters swinging sticks at each other.

The worst part is that the outcome of the battle is determined by nothing other than physical effort, but when Darth Maul defeats his opponents, he stands there like a cartoon to let Obi-Wan slice him in half. Typical bait and switch filmmaking with deus-ex-machina ending.