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Alderaan

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3-Dec-2014
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3-Oct-2017
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Post
#890475
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

Well, that’s probably why we see this film in different lights. For most of two hours I watched Kylo appear physically strong, mentally strong, and force-strong. Then at the end of the film he was suddenly having a mental breakdown and appeared physically weak, mentally weak, and force-weak.

If the next two films are about showing us this poor misunderstood boy’s tender heart, and how he’s really a good boy on the inside, and he was just tricked by some mysterious monster in the shadows, are there any people who will be happy to have watched the ST?

Post
#890456
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:
That’s the point, though. He’s not intimidating without the mask - that’s why he wears it. Driver typically has a beard and looks very much his age (32). He very purposefully looks younger than that here. The problem is you’re thinking the “kind of role” is a Darth Vader type. It’s not. It’s someone who wants to be Darth Vader. It’s a different kind of role.

So you are conceding then that this film has no threatening villain? There is no villain or obstacle that the heroes must overcome against all the odds in order to succeed? There are just placeholder enemies that only get in the way for two hours until the protagonist remembers her secret powers that she forgot for the first two hours of the film.

Does anyone else think that is good or effective storytelling?

DominicCobb said:
Did you read my post? He’s supposed to be a Hitler youth type (uber-dedicated to the cause, shooting up through the ranks at a young age). Gleeson, like Driver, usually has a beard (and is also 32). He is supposed to look young here. The First Order is not the Empire. Hux is not Tarkin.

See above. I think you are trying to argue that the filmmakers did exactly what they wanted to; and I am arguing that they apparently have no idea how to tell a story.

That is consistent with my criticism of this film. JJ Abrams did give us some “fun” scenes and sequences. The movie does have more heart and spirit than the prequels, it’s better than those films. We aren’t watching whole movies where people just walk and talk, sit down and talk, walk and talk some more, mixed with wildly inconsistent tone.

TFA is better than any other Star Wars movie in the last 32 years.

However, from a storytelling aspect, I think the movie was atrociously bad. Poorly designed and poorly executed.

Post
#890442
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:

Abrams made a conscious decision to have Ren look younger (Driver usually sports a beard) and I think Hux was supposed to be an old guy at first. Hux is interesting and scary too. When you watch the Death Star briefing scene, you get the idea that a lot of those officers are probably in it for the money or the power. But Hux is like a Hitler youth. He’s not in it for himself, he’s in it for the cause. He actually believes the First Order is right and just - that’s scary.

I was more than OK with Adam Driver in this film for the most part. Until he was unmasked, I liked his character much more than I thought I was going to. I would say that up until he was unmasked, his performance was one of the strongest parts of the film. That said, when he took off the mask he was not intimidating or convincing. Either keep it on or cast someone else in that kind of role.

As for Hux (Domnhall Gleeson), he gave one of the two worst performances in the entire film. His acting, if you can call it that, was cartoonish. The only thing missing was him twirling his evil villain mustache, but that’s simply because he didn’t look old enough to even grow one. Some of the casting decisions in this film were incredulous. As much as youth was needed in some parts (Daisy in particular was fantastic) other parts called for age and experience. How does someone who looks 25 get to be the senior most military commander in something like the First Order? Except for Harrison Ford, whose salary basically forced the entire script to be unnecessarily written around him, who else gave an experienced and nuanced performance? Where were the Alec Guinesses, Peter Cushings, James Earl Jones’s, and Kenneth Colleys in this film?

Post
#890435
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:
It’s one thing if he’s just sniffling over it, it’s another thing if he’s got a lightsaber and killing his father (amongst all the countless others). I can’t help but think about his implied massacre of Luke’s Jedi Academy - there’s a real school shooter vibe there. I don’t think that’s very funny at all.

How did he kill all of these Jedi trainees when he couldn’t even kill one who was untrained?

There is no consistent logic in the world created by Abrams and co. TFA has no consistent internal logic. The characters don’t have consistent motivation or characterizations.

Post
#890423
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:
Disagree strongly. The fact that he’s just a boy but so conflicted and with such power makes him actually really scary, but in a different way than the traditional Vader-type.

Some of us will also disagree with you strongly. Maybe this is an age thing, but I don’t think there is nothing intimidating about an emo boy sniffling over how unfair his life is. This is emo melodrama at its absolute worst.

I saw TFA that opening Friday night and mentioned to my companions that Kylo was really good, much better than I expected until holy hell he took his mask off and ruined it. The next night I took my 17 year old brother, and without being prompted he told me the exact same thing after the movie was over.

My only thought was that if my 17 year old brother thought this guy was something out of Twilight, then the unmasking of his character must be really really bad.

Post
#890267
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

hydrospanner said:
Before the prequels we didn’t know why Ben or Yoda were either

I don’t understand this statement. The backstory was inferred before the prequels, and those films are not necessary to understand Star Wars. Often they contradict the OT which was then retconned. I personally believe the OT is the only thing that matters when deciphering events of the Star Wars universe, but you can see things however you want.

As far as I’m concerned (all from the OT)…

Yoda taught Obi-Wan. When and where he taught Obi-Wan is never established and it’s irrelevant anyway. Coruscant, midi-chlorians, none of that bullshit exists in the OT. What is known is that Obi-Wan taught Anakin, and they became friends. Anakin was then seduced by the dark side and became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s new apprentice.

From there, Vader betrayed his fellow Jedi and helped the new Galactic Empire kill nearly all of them. Only Obi-Wan, Yoda, baby Luke and Leia remained. How the others were all killed, indeed how many were killed is never stated and also irrelevant to the Star Wars story. The only information that matters is that Obi-Wan took Luke and his aunt and uncle and went into hiding on Tatooine, Leia was taken to Alderaan, and Yoda lived on Dagobah. There is no hint that Yoda went into exile; rather, it always seemed to me that Dagobah was his home planet, and the reason he was never discovered was because Vader and the Emperor didn’t even know who he existed. In all of Vader’s dialogue in the OT, he mentions Obi-Wan’s name many times, but never says the name of Yoda even once. The only inference that can be made is that he (and therefore the Emperor) did not know who Yoda was.

The only explanation for why Luke Skywalker was able to live and grow up with Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru is that they too were in exile. Obi-Wan must have taken both of them with Luke into exile on Tatooine, and ordered them to raise the boy. It’s not possible in the OT for the Skywalkers to have come from Tatooine originally, otherwise Kenobi and Luke and his aunt/uncle would have all been found and destroyed.

Thus, as far as I’m concerned, the idiotic retconning that Anakin’s home planet was Tatooine, that he somehow made C3PO, that Yoda taught all Jedi and was known by Vader and the Emperor, that he knew Chewie, and that we almost got baby Han in the prequels, is all bullshit to someone like me.

As far as I’m concerned, the prequels are bullshit and have no influence on the story of the OT and might as well not even exist. I suggest other people take the same approach, but YMMV.

Post
#890047
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Yoda didn’t have an entire Empire at his disposal. I also always thought that if Vader and The Emperor knew of him or knew where he was, they would have been able to kill him too. It’s debatable if he was stronger or not (maybe because of his age), plus it was 2 against 1, and they had infinite resources at their disposal that he didn’t have.

Post
#890045
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Obi-Wan wasn’t strong enough to win and his job was to keep an eye on the boy. If he hadn’t gone into hiding, Vader and The Emperor would have surely killed him and who knows what would have happened to Luke. Certainly he would have never received the droids or had a reason to go to Alderaan.

I felt like at the end of the OT, Luke was the strongest force user in the galaxy and unassailable by whatever was left of the Empire.

Post
#890038
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Story would be so much better if Kylo were a relic hunter gaining in the dark side, and Luke was training Rey to stop him (and neither of them related to anyone from the OT!). Would have been cool to see Rey and Kylo duel each other in the same spot at Bespin.

Anyway I wonder what they are going to do with Luke? He’s too old to really be a physical fighter, so the more I think about it the more I hate that shot of Rey handing him his lightsaber. There’s something to be said for Yoda and The Emperor being so strong in the force in the OT that neither of them needed a lightsaber. You would think Luke would be stronger than that by now as well.

Kind of made him into a ***** that he ran off and hid somewhere while Han died and the galaxy fell apart.

Can’t say that sits well with me because that’s not Luke from the OT.

Post
#890030
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

The problem isn’t the aesthetics. The film looked mostly fine, albeit a bit fake at times. Mostly though the problem is that there is no story.

Maybe not everyone, but some people will look back one day and wonder WTF they were thinking to like a movie with Captain Phasma lowering the shields, Gollum-Snoke, CGI rathars (or whatever they were called) dragging one of the main characters through the ship at 200 mph until someone cuts off its tentacles with a door that somehow leaves the other character completely unhurt, a sith-apprentice who one second is stopping blaster bolts in mid-air and flinging people violently into trees, then 5 seconds later is getting injured by random stormtroopers, the millenium falcon jumping into hyperspace while it’s still in a hangar bay, and on and on.

Sure the film was kind of fun but in a really dumb way. It’s better than the prequels, but we know that’s not saying much. When the hype dies down, people will see this film for what it is.

Edit:
After the OT, I just hold this franchise up to a higher standard.

Post
#889947
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I was thinking about the flashback, and the image of Rey standing with the lightsaber in the corridor at Bespin. Everyone assumes it was looking back into the past when Luke faced Vader in that exact spot, but now I’m starting to wonder if that was really a vision of the future.

Maybe Rey fights someone at Bespin in the next film?

Post
#889764
Topic
ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss!
Time

We’ve already had that discussion in that thread awhile back, and everyone has said you are wrong. Vader was seething angry when he left Bespin. He didn’t have enough time to calm down, it was still the heat of the moment. If you have ever played a physical contact sport, you will know exactly what I am talking about. Luke had defied him, then hurt him with a lightsaber to the shoulder, and in a fit of rage Vader instantly chopped off the insolent kid’s hand. You can hear in James Earl Jones’s masterful voice performance, that Vader has to really hold himself back to not kill Luke. “Don’t make me destroy you” was of course a threat, but Vader’s temperament was so unstable with rage, he had to concentrate to hold himself back.

In contrast, by the time Vader reached the bridge of the Executor, he had time for “cooler heads to prevail”. He was no longer threatening Luke when they communicated with each other through the force; rather, he was pleading with him as any father would to his son. That difference in tone, the change in tactics from threatening to pleading, is what got a different response out of Luke. And the softer response out of Luke further softened Vader.

When the Falcon escaped into hyperspace, Vader’s emotional state was completely different than it was at the end of their duel.

Post
#889741
Topic
ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss!
Time

Vader was fine in Jedi. His change started at the end of Empire Strikes Back. His final shot, on the bridge of the Executor, when the Falcon escapes. His son escapes, and he stares longingly after him into the depths of space. He starts to turn, but then looks back, one more time, as in disbelief. When he walks off the bridge, the officers, particularly Piett, are fearful for their lives. And yet, he just quietly walks off the bridge.

You don’t need a villain to take off his mask and cry and show you his tender heart in order to have depth. In fact, that is the lazy, amateurish way to do it.

No, Vader’s moment of vulnerability was just quietly walking off the bridge, back to the camera. Off to console himself with his own emotions and thoughts in some private chamber somewhere else on the ship.

Now fast forward to Jedi and it’s been a couple years later. The Emperor knows that Vader is a traitor. The only reason he keeps Vader alive is because he knows Luke will come for him. Otherwise, he would just assume kill Vader already, and he keeps him on a short leash and mocks him repeatedly when they speak together in person. For all we know, The Emperor had S/M sessions and tortured Vader half to death off camera during the years in between movies. Or maybe Vader has softened because of his feelings towards his son. Who knows the entire story, but Vader is broken and conflicted by the last film.

I don’t see anything wrong it.

Post
#889613
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

Well, that’s kind of my point. Everyone will now become a good guy. We’ll have an entire series where everyone is prequel Anakin, and Kylo, and Phasma who didn’t mean to do bad things. They are just misguided kids making mistakes and killing people because some bad emperor or bogeyman tricked them into doing it.

Post
#889604
Topic
The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS **
Time

Where were Palpatine’s parents? I think it’s unfair that Palpatine didn’t have anyone try and get him back to the good side of the Force. At this rate I will be disappointed if General Leia doesn’t get Snoke into a therapy session that includes talk about boulangerie owners at the climax of the trilogy.