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Why I Love Prequel Yoda (Outdated) — Page 2

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G&G-Fan said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’d argue that Yoda should never have appeared in the PT. Establishing that he was exiled from the order in TPM would’ve been a nice subversion, demonstrating how far the Jedi had fallen since its “golden days.”

Mocata said:

Ahh but there’s the real problem, and keeping all of the ESB twists intact would require far more creativity.

Or maybe because it would contradict more lines from the original trilogy? Like Yoda knowing who Luke’s father was enough to say “Powerful Jedi was he” and “Much anger in him… like his father”. How else would he know to “Not underestimate the powers of the Emperor”? And how else would he learn “Wars not make one great” without having experienced that first hand.

That’s another thing that a lot of people miss. When he says “Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor” that obviously means he faced him before. Obviously he was witness to the Emperor’s power first hand. That actually becomes a plot hole for anyone who removes that duel from the movie, because now how else would he know the Emperor’s power? It fits into the original trilogy perfectly.

In TESB, Yoda seems to know a fair bit about the type of person Luke was growing up on Tatooine despite having never met him in person before the events of the film, implying he’s a fairly strong clairvoyant. If he could’ve observed Luke’s life from afar, there’s no reason he couldn’t have done the same with Anakin, Palpatine, etc. decades earlier.

Also, even if he didn’t fight in the Clone Wars, that doesn’t preclude him from having participated in some earlier warfare in his lifetime. Hell, there’s nothing precluding him from having fought Palpatine somehow, either. Maybe they had a violent Force Skype.

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G&G-Fan said:

SparkySywer said:

What changed between when Yoda’s talking big to Palpatine and when he says “Failed, I have”?

Nothing to do with the Jedi or the Republic, or the Sith or the Empire. What changed is he lost a fight. That’s kind of what we have to go on, and that’s really the only real interpretation I think you can get from the movie itself.

Not to mention, why does he realize he’s failed then of all times, if he’s talking about some grand centuries-long, galaxy-defining failure? I’d say even before the fight, even if Yoda won, Palpatine getting as far as he did shows that something at least had failed. If this was all actually in the prequels, why wouldn’t he say this right when it became obvious that Palpatine was a Sith?

What changed was that he lost the duel, and that loss made him rethink everything that happened before then. Like thinking, “Where did it go all wrong?”

He didn’t say that immediately because it took him some time to realize that the Jedi failed the galaxy. He didn’t just lose the fight, he failed to prevent Palpatine from rising to power from the beginning. Sometimes it takes time to process such an immense amount of grief and loss. You immediately blame the thing right in front of you instead of the deeper things, the former being the Sith and the latter being Jedi complacency.

Nibcrom said:

So the full quote is:

“Into exile, I must go. Failed, I have.”

Yes?

I don’t think that line is necessarily a confession of failure over hundreds of years, but it’s MORE than “I lost a lightsaber fight.” If Yoda had beaten Palpatine in that duel, I’m guessing Yoda and Kenobi would stick around and try to restore the Republic instead of going into exile.

Why would they need to go into exile if they defeated Palpatine? They would just build a better Republic and a new Jedi order that’s less complacent and corrupt.

BedeHistory731 said:

I’d argue that Yoda should never have appeared in the PT. Establishing that he was exiled from the order in TPM would’ve been a nice subversion, demonstrating how far the Jedi had fallen since its “golden days.”

Mocata said:

Ahh but there’s the real problem, and keeping all of the ESB twists intact would require far more creativity.

Or maybe because it would contradict more lines from the original trilogy? Like Yoda knowing who Luke’s father was enough to say “Powerful Jedi was he” and “Much anger in him… like his father”. How else would he know to “Not underestimate the powers of the Emperor”? And how else would he learn “Wars not make one great” without having experienced that first hand.

That’s another thing that a lot of people miss. When he says “Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor” that obviously means he faced him before. Obviously he was witness to the Emperor’s power first hand. That actually becomes a plot hole for anyone who removes that duel from the movie, because now how else would he know the Emperor’s power? It fits into the original trilogy perfectly.

I said “instead of going into exile.” I am saying that if Yoda killed the Emperor, Kenobi and Yoda could have stuck around and tried to rebuild the Republic.

I agree that Yoda’s participation in the Clone Wars makes his line in Empire about “wars not make one great” stronger.

I agree that when Yoda says “Failed, I have” he is speaking about more than just losing a lightsaber duel. He is saying I have failed to kill the Emperor. If he had killed the Emperor, Kenobi and Yoda would NOT have had to go into exile. I think the clones could be defeated (without their secret master) and the Republic could have started rebuilding much sooner. Order 66 would have been a huge tragic setback instead of a catastrophic loss of power.

I don’t think he is necessarily saying that his failure is the culmination of hundreds of years of failure. I think it’s more of the span from Attack of the Clones to Revenge of the Sith.

I’m mostly agreeing with you. 😃

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G&G-Fan said:

Mocata said:

Ahh but there’s the real problem, and keeping all of the ESB twists intact would require far more creativity.

Or maybe because it would contradict more lines from the original trilogy? Like Yoda knowing who Luke’s father was enough to say “Powerful Jedi was he” and “Much anger in him… like his father”.

He can know Anakin without having been in the Jedi Order. Not to mention, Yoda says that he’d been watching Luke all his life, despite being on Dagobah for 19 years. Maybe Yoda just knows this shit.

I don’t necessarily think Yoda being outside the (main?) Jedi Order is the only or even best way to go. But it would’ve made for a much better characterization than… whatever the hell you could call the Yoda we got.

How else would he know to “Not underestimate the powers of the Emperor”?

The Emperor’s clearly powerful and got to Anakin decades ago. Him getting to Luke is a huge risk. Plus, Yoda could have had experience with the Emperor without any of the changes to his character the prequels brought.

And how else would he learn “Wars not make one great” without having experienced that first hand.

Well, just knowledge of history, although that would be really boring. Really, there’s nothing wrong with him having first hand knowledge of the horrors of war, but it needs to have one of two things:

-An actual character arc of him learning the horrors of war, in the actual movies, and not from some EU writer trying to rehabilitate the prequels

-Or, push it back to before the prequels if you don’t want to deal with it, or if you want to have Yoda be a force for pacifism in the story.

Having him be an active, enthusiastic general and then inexplicably become a huge pacifist off-screen between movies, doesn’t make for a compelling story.

That’s another thing that a lot of people miss. When he says “Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor” that obviously means he faced him before. Obviously he was witness to the Emperor’s power first hand. That actually becomes a plot hole for anyone who removes that duel from the movie, because now how else would he know the Emperor’s power? It fits into the original trilogy perfectly.

“Powers of the Emperor” doesn’t necessarily mean his skill at lightsaber fighting. Hell, the prequels recontextualizing everything about the Force and a Jedi’s power to be just Dragonball Z fights is the worst thing about them.

I’m not a super fan of conservative prequel rewrites, but Belated Media’s Episode III rewrite has a scene that deals with this plot point a hundred thousand times better, here, and also shows Palpatine’s rise to power in a more compelling way.

Belated Media’s really only putting the bare minimum in, in my opinion, but it’s leagues better than the story the prequels gave us. Because, well, these ideas are actually there in the story itself.

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Imagine thinking that Yoda just not ever involving himself into anything is more interesting. That would definitely make him quite hypocritical when he says “Do, or do not, there is no try”. He doesn’t say, “You’re better off just watching everything bad happen from a distance and not do anything about it.” Him knowing Anakin more personally is way more impactful and makes for a better narrative. It makes it so Yoda is more right to be cautious about training Luke. He shouldn’t just sit out as the entire galaxy goes to shit and the Sith take over. Like wow, what a great hero.

It’s not the EU that “rehabilitated” them, he just learned between the movies. It’s established in Revenge of the Sith that he became Qui-Gon’s apprentice, it doesn’t take much to realize that the change in his character between the prequels and the originals was because his perspective changed during his exile. There’s not even any EU stuff that covers what Yoda did between ROTS and ESB. Guess who also had character development between films? Luke, between ESB and ROTJ. He grew from rash and impatient to collected and wise. But I guess that wasn’t actually in the movies.

He didn’t say “Don’t underestimate the Emperor’s ability to manipulate people”, he said “The powers of the Emperor.” It’s a clear foreshadowing to his force lightning anyway, as the moment Luke lets his guard down and underestimates the Emperor, he gets attacked by force lightning. Force lightning is the payoff to all the talk of the Emperor being someone you don’t underestimate. And Yoda knew this, because force lightning was how he lost.

First, Palpatine shows more powers to Yoda then lightsaber dueling. He uses telekinesis and force lightning too. In fact the first thing he does is force lightning. Second, the force in the prequels is the same as in the original movies. They didn’t introduce anything new. Force lightning, telekinesis (Vader throws objects at Luke in ESB, force choking is technically telekinesis, Yoda lifting up an entire X-Wing), force speed and super high jumping (Luke did it in ESB AND ROTJ when he jumped up to avoid Vader, and Vader also did a big jump in ESB), seeing into the future, fast lightsaber dueling (sometimes Vader and Luke’s duels can actually be pretty fast in their most intense parts; the only reason they weren’t faster is because Luke is a novice force user and Vader isn’t trying to kill him, it makes a ton of sense that Jedi masters that trained for decades would be incredibly fast and powerful), it’s all there. The force giving people “superpowers” is not something the prequels introduced. They’ve been there from the beginning. The prequels just showed far more experienced and powerful force users more often using their powers (often because the circumstances were more right in the prequels to show off their full power; Vader was incredibly powerful but had to hold back the vast majority of the time). They’re just the original powers dialed up because they feature more powerful, experienced people who are more skilled with those powers more often in circumstances where they should use their full powers. Stop pretending the original trilogy didn’t have any force superpowers. Don’t pretend Yoda didn’t lift an X-Wing, Luke didn’t jump super quick high up in the air to escape the Carbonite freezing, Vader didn’t choke a guy that was in a different location then him and threw things at Luke, and that parts in his fight with Vader in ROTJ actually go really quick. Third, the prequels are nothing like Dragonball Z. They have just as much in common with them as the originals.

Also the force in the prequels isn’t just superpowers and fights. The Jedi fight as a last resort. Do you not remember everything Qui-Gon said about the will of the Force and how the Force will guide them? Literally the first discussion in the entire prequels is Qui-Gon telling Obi-Wan about needing to be “in the moment.” Qui-Gon was overall very elegant and faithful. I guess you also conveniently forgot about Anakin and Yoda’s talk about how he should “rejoice for those who transform into the force.” All the times they say “May the force be with you”? “Balance to the force”? The force is still very much a spiritual thing. And no, midichlorians do not remove that. They’re the bridge that connects living beings to the force, NOT the force itself.

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G&G-Fan said:

Imagine thinking that Yoda just not ever involving himself into anything is more interesting. That would definitely make him quite hypocritical when he says “Do, or do not, there is no try”. He doesn’t say, “You’re better off just watching everything bad happen from a distance and not do anything about it.” Him knowing Anakin more personally is way more impactful and makes for a better narrative, instead of him just sitting out as the entire galaxy goes to shit. Like wow, what a great hero.

Well then, maybe it should be that he can’t go back, because he’d be arrested and killed if he ever returned (either by the Jedi or by the Republic/Empire). He wanted to go back and help, but he knew the Jedi wouldn’t accept his help and that he could not face these threats head-on. Maybe he’s a bit more pragmatic, seeing a frontal assault on the Emperor as a terrible idea. If he falls, there are few-to-no options left.

He doesn’t really need to know Anakin either, since he has clairvoyant abilities that he’s honed over a long lifespan. He can pick up the gist of what happens through his remaining connections to the Jedi (i.e., Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and the people who exiled him).

It’s not the EU that “rehabilitated” them, he just learned between the movies. It’s established in Revenge of the Sith that he became Qui-Gon’s apprentice, it doesn’t take much to realize that the change in his character between the prequels and the originals was because his perspective changed during his exile. There’s not even any EU stuff that covers what Yoda did between ROTS and ESB. Guess who also had character development between films? Luke, between ESB and ROTJ.

True, but I think it enhances Yoda’s stock as a character if he wasn’t a part of the Jedi during the Clone Wars or during the fall of the Jedi. He’s an “alternate path” for Luke, a contrast to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan tried to work within the crumbling Jedi system and screwed up, while Yoda’s teachings cannot provide the full story. Therefore, Luke takes the third option - his own interpretations of his masters’ lessons combined with his life experiences.

He didn’t say “Don’t underestimate the Emperor’s ability to manipulate people”, he said “The powers of the Emperor.” It’s a clear foreshadowing to his force lightning anyway, as the moment Luke lets his guard down and underestimates the Emperor, he gets attacked by force lightning. Force lightning is the payoff to all the talk of the Emperor being someone you don’t underestimate. And Yoda knew this, because force lightning was how he lost.

It could also be that he read about that power and knows that powerful Sith lords can use it. He could have seen it through the Force or dealt with a dark side pupil that tried to adopt this ability. He doesn’t need first-hand knowledge.

While the force is still very spiritual in the prequels, the overall quality of the fights and styles of combat in AOTC and ROTS really lose me. It just feels a lot more “fake,” in a way that I can’t really articulate. I get the whole “Jedi at the height of their power” thing, but the fighting doesn’t nearly have the same emotional resonance (IMHO) as it did in the OT or ST (or even the animated shows).

I also maintain that the biggest flaw with the prequels is a fundamental one: they were made with the assumption that people have seen the OT. Getting them to work in episode order requires writing them with the assumption that nobody has seen the OT.

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BedeHistory731 said:

I also maintain that the biggest flaw with the prequels is a fundamental one: they were made with the assumption that people have seen the OT. Getting them to work in episode order requires writing them with the assumption that nobody has seen the OT.

Is that even a problem, though? I feel like no one would be upset about this if Lucas didn’t try to pedal his “Tragedy of Darth Vader” bullshit later on. Despite what George says, the prequels weren’t meant to be seen before the OT, and that’s great! Writing a story about Anakin’s transformation into Darth Vader, with the assumption that we’re not even supposed to know that Anakin and Darth Vader are the same person, would just be a contradiction that de-emphasizes the point of the story. If you view the saga in release order like you were supposed to, all these complaints about “ruining the OT’s plot twists” become completely invalid.

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I’d prefer an episode-order experience without spoilers for the OT. I’m sorry, but I’d prefer it if they worked in episode-order fashion, if only because release order just makes one disappointed more than anything. Granted, my order is the last 30 minutes of R1-ANH-ESB-ROTJ-Good episodes of TCW and Rebels-TLJ, but that’s my approach.

Better Call Saul would be my ideal model for a prequel. Watching Better Call Saul first doesn’t totally spoil the other show (aside from us knowing more about Mike, Gus, and Saul/Jimmy/Gene - but nothing that’s an immersion-breaking spoiler). Heck, the experience of Breaking Bad gets enhanced by BCS (i.e., Walt seems more powerful/lucky in his actions). I never get that with the PT. If the prequels had taken the Better Call Saul approach in regards to “spoilers,” “assumptions,” and “keeping things consistent,” I’d have preferred that.

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But Better Call Saul is a spinoff show, it doesn’t have very much to do with the main plot of Breaking Bad. The prequels are a completely different situation. By placing them in the same overarching saga as the OT, you kind of have to explain the backstory of that trilogy. I would be disappointed if the prequels were a spinoff trilogy about a team of B-list Jedi during the Clone Wars, with only vague hints at the actual main story. I much preferred getting some actual answers on how the Empire rose and Anakin became Darth Vader.

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The BCS example may not have been the best (since Walt never appears), but it is one of the few prequels that actually enhances the work instead of being terrible. We get a better understanding of the fictional world and just about every character outside of Walt’s family. Heck, it can reframe both shows as Jimmy McGill’s rise and fall through three key figures (Chuck McGill, Lalo Salamanca, and Walt).

StarkillerAG said:

I much preferred getting some actual answers on how the Empire rose and Anakin became Darth Vader.

As would I, but I’d prefer if episode order worked and we saw Anakin’s fall without knowing that he’s Vader. Give Obi-Wan a second (also fallen) pupil, maybe turn Vader into a name carried by multiple Sith apprentices, etc. there were ways to show Anakin’s fall while preserving the twists. However, by making the PT with the assumption that you’ve seen the OT, they aren’t nearly as enjoyable.

Heck, Yoda not appearing in the PT would be an excellent way to play with expectations of OT fans. Knowing who Yoda is makes his exile from the order more emotionally powerful. What could’ve happened to make the Jedi exile the wise Yoda? Well, look at Windu and the state of the order. Having other twists like that for a release order viewing would be fantastic, while preserving the validity of episode order.

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G&G-Fan said:

It’s established in Revenge of the Sith that he became Qui-Gon’s apprentice, it doesn’t take much to realize that the change in his character between the prequels and the originals was because his perspective changed during his exile.

So… off-screen and not actually a thing in the prequels?

There’s not even any EU stuff that covers what Yoda did between ROTS and ESB. Guess who also had character development between films? Luke, between ESB and ROTJ. He grew from rash and impatient to collected and wise. But I guess that wasn’t actually in the movies.

There’s EU stuff that covers absolutely everything. The Old EU had a full backstory for the guy running around with an ice cream maker in Empire, the New EU has a full backstory for the guy who gets choked out by Vader in ANH.

He didn’t say “Don’t underestimate the Emperor’s ability to manipulate people”, he said “The powers of the Emperor.”

In the actual context of the scene that’s from, Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about how Anakin fell to the dark side because he was unprepared and the Emperor manipulated him, and now Luke’s leaving Dagobah, with his training unfinished, to go face Vader. Especially since the Emperor wants Luke and his abilities, they’re worried that the path he’s going down will lead him to the same fate as Anakin.

I really don’t think it’s about the crazy Marvel superpowers the Emperor has, because, well, for one, Force Lightning isn’t in ESB, and for two, Luke never fights the Emperor in the entire trilogy.

Also the force in the prequels isn’t just superpowers and fights.

I think both strategies for writing a prequel are valid. Writing them with an Episodic Order in mind is valid, especially since Star Wars has these episode numbers which at least beg the question on why they are what they are. Writing them with a Release Order in mind is valid, because, well, they were released in that order. Giving out information and developing the story in that order makes sense because the newer stuff builds on the older stuff like every other story.

The Tragedy of Darth Vader stuff is kind of the worst of both worlds, though. You get the OT story spoiled like a Release Order would, but it’s not a coherent enough story to justify the Episodic Order mindset. The two trilogies might as well be entirely atomized stories.

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SparkySywer said:
In the actual context of the scene that’s from, Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about how Anakin fell to the dark side because he was unprepared and the Emperor manipulated him, and now Luke’s leaving Dagobah, with his training unfinished, to go face Vader. Especially since the Emperor wants Luke and his abilities.

I really don’t think it’s about the crazy Marvel superpowers the Emperor has, because, well, for one, Force Lightning isn’t in ESB, and for two, Luke never fights the Emperor in the entire trilogy.

HAHAHAHAHAHA (this isn’t even hyperbole I actually laughed so hard upon seeing this)

This proves you didn’t actually watch the movies. Yoda says to not underestimate the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Not Empire Strikes Back. Force lightning is in Return of the Jedi.

I would think people on a forum called ORIGINALTRILOGY.COM would actually know jack and shit about the original trilogy.

SparkySywer said:

Watch the movies, because you clearly haven’t. I literally just provided examples for you completely ignored them. And another purist dude here literally AGREED WITH ME.

Also regarding Bede’s comments, what he suggested is another valid way to incorporate Yoda in the prequels, so I can’t really say you’re wrong, but I like what they actually did. I also don’t find the duels in AOTC and ROTS fake, I think they’re great, especially the ones in ROTS. Shadiversity (a guy who actually knows sword fighting) even did a video analyzing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel move-by-move and he thinks it’s fantastic and one of the best choregraphed duels in films (he also analyzed the Last Jedi duel and found it to be absolutely horrible). But again, whether something looks fake to you is rather subjective so I can’t really say you’re wrong.

I’ve watched the whole saga multiple times and I’ve never heard of “Death Vader”. Must be in the alternate universe versions of the movies you watched, because clearly we haven’t been watching the same ones.

Also how is the Tragedy of Darth Vader story not coherent? He becomes a Jedi, becomes an evil Sith midway through the third movie, is evil for the next two movies and the greater part of the sixth one, and then redeems himself at the end of said sixth one. “Not being coherent” would be if Vader was a good guy in ESB.

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G&G-Fan said:

SparkySywer said:
In the actual context of the scene that’s from, Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about how Anakin fell to the dark side because he was unprepared and the Emperor manipulated him, and now Luke’s leaving Dagobah, with his training unfinished, to go face Vader. Especially since the Emperor wants Luke and his abilities.

I really don’t think it’s about the crazy Marvel superpowers the Emperor has, because, well, for one, Force Lightning isn’t in ESB, and for two, Luke never fights the Emperor in the entire trilogy.

HAHAHAHAHAHA (this isn’t even hyperbole I actually laughed so hard upon seeing this)

This proves you didn’t actually watch the movies. Yoda says to not underestimate the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Not Empire Strikes Back. Force lightning is in Return of the Jedi.

I would think people on a forum called ORIGINALTRILOGY.COM would actually know jack and shit about the original trilogy.

SparkySywer said:

Watch the movies, because you clearly haven’t. I literally just provided examples for you completely ignored them. And another purist due literally AGREED WITH ME.

Also regarding Bede’s comments, what he suggested is another valid way to incorporate Yoda in the prequels, so I can’t really say you’re wrong, but I like what they actually did. I also don’t find the duels in AOTC and ROTS fake, I think they’re great, especially the ones in ROTS. Shadiversity (a guy who actually knows sword fighting) even did a video analyzing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel move-by-move and he thinks it’s fantastic and one of the best choregraphed duels in films (he also analyzed the Last Jedi duel and found it to be absolutely horrible). But again, whether something looks fake to you is rather subjective so I can’t really say you’re wrong.

I’ve watched the whole saga multiple times and I’ve never heard of “Death Vader”. Must be in the alternate universe versions of the movies you watched, because clearly we haven’t been watching the same ones.

Also how is the Tragedy of Darth Vader story not coherent? He becomes a Jedi (rises), becomes evil in the third movie, is evil for the next two movies and the greater part of the sixth one, and then redeems himself at the end of said sixth one. “Not being coherent” would be if Vader was a good guy in ESB.

Lmao, Yoda says similar things in both RotJ and Empire. My bad. CTRL+F’ing on the RotJ and ESB scripts didn’t help me today

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Play nicely, people. I’m not a mod, but this is getting way too heated. Reminds me of the average level of discourse on Reddit or Twitter.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
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It’s kinda like the Internet in general has proven itself a terrible staging ground for cogent, good-faith discourse.

And I say that as a person susceptible to muddled, bad-faith gibbering.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’d argue that Yoda should never have appeared in the PT. Establishing that he was exiled from the order in TPM would’ve been a nice subversion, demonstrating how far the Jedi had fallen since its “golden days.”

This.

General, count me in.

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ray_afraid said:

Yoda can learn that “Wars not make one great” without having jumped around like a frog with a glowstick during said War.

This, 100%. I like Yoda’s prequel arc in theory, but having him swing around a lightsaber while jumping like an idiot was a huge mistake that devalues his character. Hal’s prequel edits are some of my favorite ones, at least partially because he removed every instance of Yoda using a lightsaber.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
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StarkillerAG said:

This, 100%. I like Yoda’s prequel arc in theory, but having him swing around a lightsaber while jumping like an idiot was a huge mistake that devalues his character. Hal’s prequel edits are some of my favorite ones, at least partially because he removed every instance of Yoda using a lightsaber.

I don’t understand this point of view. I can see why it might break your suspension of disbelief, but how does it devalue his character in any way? We know that light-sabers are the weapon of the Jedi, and building one is supposedly some kind of right-of-passage according to Vader in ROTJ, so why wouldn’t Yoda use one?

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daveinthecave said:

StarkillerAG said:

This, 100%. I like Yoda’s prequel arc in theory, but having him swing around a lightsaber while jumping like an idiot was a huge mistake that devalues his character. Hal’s prequel edits are some of my favorite ones, at least partially because he removed every instance of Yoda using a lightsaber.

I don’t understand this point of view. I can see why it might break your suspension of disbelief, but how does it devalue his character in any way? We know that light-sabers are the weapon of the Jedi, and building one is supposedly some kind of right-of-passage according to Vader in ROTJ, so why wouldn’t Yoda use one?

‘What does God need with a spaceship?’

The image a lot of people had of Yoda and the Emperor in the original films was of beings who had no need for traditional weapons, since they could shoot lightning and lift X-wings with their minds.

It would be like Gandalf and Sauruman fighting in Orthanc with swords. Sure, Gandalf had a sword and used it on occasion, but Sauruman didn’t and he was seen as Gandalf’s superior. Their battle was one of pure magical will.

So when Yoda and Dooku pulled out their swords to go at it, this implied that swords still held some importance as to the winner of the fight. It’s even worse with Yoda against Palpatine. The fact that either of them thought that a swordfight would be decisive shows how small these characters really are.

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NeverarGreat said:

The image a lot of people had of Yoda and the Emperor in the original films was of beings who had no need for traditional weapons, since they could shoot lightning and lift X-wings with their minds.

… It’s even worse with Yoda against Palpatine. The fact that either of them thought that a swordfight would be decisive shows how small these characters really are.

Just wanted to voice my total agreement. Not all Jedi and Sith need to have lightsabers, I think that’s quite silly. There’s usually a catering to the people who watch Star Wars for the swooshy lightsaber duels, but with one arguably over-choreographed lightsaber fight in Revenge of the Sith already happening at the same point in the film, Yoda and Palpatine really shouldn’t have fought with them.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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Thanks for that, Nev. You summed up my opinions 100%.

Yoda in the OT was this sort of untouchable, almost Buddha-like figure. The Emperor was the same in the opposite direction, being more of a Satanic figure. But when you give them both laser swords and have them do a badly choreographed flippy duel, it makes them seem like just some average samurai wizards.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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I wouldn’t have minded Palpatine with a lightsaber if Lucas had went in the same direction Dark Empire had. Palpatine wields a lightsaber, but it’s a lightsaber taken from a vanquished Jedi, not one of his own creation. And he doesn’t wield it because he relies on it, but to profane it. That would’ve been in keeping with Palpatine’s character.

I mean, how much more effective would it have been if Palpatine had whipped out Windu’s lightsaber when confronting Yoda, only to contemptuously toss it aside later in the fight.

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NeverarGreat said:

So when Yoda and Dooku pulled out their swords to go at it, this implied that swords still held some importance as to the winner of the fight.

Dooku outright says “It is obvious that this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.” At the risk of being really hyperbolic… can you get any more antithetical to the core concepts of Star Wars itself?