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Who Felt Return Of The Jedi Was A Letdown At The Time? — Page 2

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Easterhay said:

So, not only are you following me from thread to thread, you're also compiling a list of my posts.  My word; do you really not have anything better to do with your life?  I know films like Star Wars bring out the obsessive in people but, really, Chewtobacca, chill out, fella.

By the way, I have no idea who doubleofive is or the post to which you refer.  Which suggests my posts mean more to you than they do to me. 

http://uwe.endingthealphabet.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/deal-with-it.gif

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I do love it when anyone who has anything negative to say about something is labeled 'a hater'.

My opinion of the film comes from seeing aged it 13 and hasn't really changed since so I can't really put it down to being older (though some would argue I have been 40 years old all my life and my body has just caught up with the rest of me, which will probably start regressing now to the point where burp jokes and teddy bears smacking themselves in the head will begin to look like great cinema).

People are different.

There are people on here who love TPM because they are young enough to be nostalgic for it.

The same goes with ROTJ.

But if you brake the film down, look at the art design, the writing the acting, the attention to detail, even the score, ROTJ is the weakest film of the OT and set the scene for almost everything wrong with the PT.

Some people would argue that on first viewing those things aren't noticed and that thanks to the VCR and the home viewing formats that followed, these films are placed under much more scrutiny than they were designed for (an opinion I wouldn't entirely distance myself from).

But I noticed the drop in quality back in 1983 and as you have read I was not alone there.

I grew up watching Doctor Who and Sapphire and Steel so normally I would be forgiving of things that might not look so hot but still had a strong story of compelling performances but this is Star Wars, the film series that gave us :

The Best Opening Image In Cinema

In ANH and ESB almost everyone gives a good performance and the films still look amazing for their time in the same way that Metropolis and Forbidden Planet look amazing for their time. 

ROTJ looks and feels tatty and unloved, like a nativity play using last year's costumes and Mark and Ian give the only two performances that really shine out of the fog, for everyone else it's the contractual obligation picture.

 

 

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Baronlando said:

Sequels were made and watched in a very different way back then. Everyone has a raging boner for continuity and tonal consistency now, but it just didn't matter as much to the average, non-starlog reader. That's why it was ok for James Bond to meet Blofeld in one movie and then meet him again in the very next. It just wasn't a big deal. 

I think the shift in sequel-making mentality might have begun after Temple of Doom was so deliberately, gleefully, different in tone than Raiders and people got all pissed.

Having watched all the Bonds up to "For Your Eyes Only" in chronological order, there's a tad more continuity hidden in there than you'd think.

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Where were you in '77?

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Easterhay said:

Did we have IMAX in 1983?

 

The Smithsonian Air and Space museum had IMAX since it opened in the mid 70's. It was impractical to run 35mm feature length films in IMAX venues until this past decade though.

What I meant was the effect at the particular theater I saw Jedi at was IMAX like in the way the screen filled out my field of vision. (Sitting in the sweet spot in the balcony, something modern crackerbox theaters lack.) It made the Speeder Bike chase more intense for me than it has ever been since!

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Where were you in '77?

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Bingowings said:

People are different.

There are people on here who love TPM because they are young enough to be nostalgic for it.

The same goes with ROTJ.

But if you brake the film down, look at the art design, the writing the acting, the attention to detail, even the score, ROTJ is the weakest film of the OT and set the scene for almost everything wrong with the PT.

I realize which forum I'm on but while I grew up watching the OT and admiring the movies as much as the next guy, I wasn't big into Star Wars. TPM, however, is what made me a fan. It helped me put the OT in a better context and I could genuinely appreciate it. It could totally be a generation gap but I view the movies as a six part saga, not a trilogy.

As it goes for ROTJ though, that was my favorite of the bunch as a kid. Luke was pretty much a Jedi by this point, he could finally have his showdown with Darth Vader, you had the Emperor running around tearing shit up, lots of action sequences, etc. I guess it's only as you get older that you start seeing the film's shortcomings. As you say, the actors were mostly phoning it in.

But beyond that, it felt like most of the crew had no real passion for the film. Everything felt choreographed in the most negative sense of the term. Even without having the thing memorized, you can kinda start guessing what's coming. "Well, Han and Leia ain't out of the woods yet, we've still got another five or ten minutes before the traditional first act break so something gotta happen that'll... yep, there's Jabba, right on schedule." "There's no way the rebels can blow up the Death Star just yet, we've got another, what, fifteen or twenty minutes to go in the movie so something has to happen to slow them down.... oh, what do you know, the deflector shield will be quite operational when Luke's friends arrive. And I'll bet none of their ships can repel firepower of the Death Star's magnitude." And so on and so forth.

People can say whatever they want about Lawrence Kasdan basically serving as a hired gun who just did what Lucas told him to do but honestly I've never seen much after ESB from that guy that really impressed me. And even Raiders owes more to Speilberg and his vision than it does Kasdan and his writing, as far as I'm concerned. And I have to wonder how much of both of those finished products are really "his" and didn't come from other sources. One wonders how ROTJ might've turned out if a different writer had come onboard.

ROTJ has several bright spots and is worth watching but the saga deserved a stronger finish. Had Lucas and co. taken a year off or something after work finished on Raiders and found a better writer, I suspect ROTJ might've turned out quite differently.

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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It's too bad Richard Marquand isn't around to tell his side of things.

I guess we may never know how much George was actually backseat directing, unless someone else comes forward and spills the beans.

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Where were you in '77?

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I was nine years old when ROTJ was released. At the time it just meant more Star Wars, more TOYS! I loved those breakaway Speeder Bike vehicles (even if the action figures sat weirdly on them).

ROTJ has always been strangely inconsistent, and perhaps this is because of the struggle between what Lucas wanted and Marquand delivered (didn't Lucas also have this problem with Kirsh? Control issues?). TESB turned out to be the best of the three movies, however.

There are some great scenes in ROTJ, though there's also some lazy acting and cheesiness going on in many scenes. The visual effects are great throughout. The last third's editing has always bothered me. Those fantastic space battle scenes are intercut with the less interesting though sometimes humorous Endor scenes, and I often just fast-forwarded through the Ewoks to the Millennium Falcon parts.

It's hard to feel hate for ROTJ. It was the final act of the story at the time, and it still completes the Original Trilogy despite its flaws.

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When I saw ROTJ in 83, I was 11 years old. To me it was the best of the movies at the time. It was only until the early 90s when I started to realize what a mixed bag it was.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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When I was a kid, I really liked Jedi, it was my favourite, SW was 2nd and ESB 3rd. And to be honest, when TPM came out when I was 11 it became my favourite at the time. (and yes, I still have a bit of nostalgia for it and enjoy watching it tons more than ROTS, not to mention AOTC but that's a different story, of the OT I liked ROTJ the best and at the time I really liked the SE for that matter). As I got older I didn't like it as much. I had no particular reason, I didn't analyse the film, it was just that in time I'd play the ROTJ VHS less and less and ESB more and more with SW keeping its steady 2nd place (and I totally let go of the PT). What made me realize the actual reasons why Jedi wasn't as good as the other two (I never really gave it much thought) was this article: 50 REASONS WHY RETURN OF THE JEDI SUCKS , similarly to how I realized the PT sucked and I didn't like it much anymore (I was 11, 13 and 16 when they came out and so they kinda grew with me and then I've outgrown them) but I couldn't have given you reasons why, until I saw redlettermedia's reviews.

But I still really enjoy watching Jedi very much (especially in its original version) and with all its flaws it is a fun film to watch.



 

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I was 9 when ROTJ came out and LOVED IT.  At that age I was all about the space battles and light saber battles.  I also loved the toys and tried to buy them, even though my parents forbade me.  I still love the Endor space battle.  After the PT tragedy was released, like many of you, I was let down and pissed.  I started reading about other fans being pissed too and I joined the PT basher nation on a couple of SW sites.  During and post PT, I like many others discovered just how lazy and selfish Lucas was and some also speculated that ROTJ was the beginning of the end as far as quality goes.  I recall reading a Gary Kurtz interview where Gary said that in response to Kasdan's hard work and over-budget spending on ESB, George said: "we could have made just as much money if you hadnt made it THAT GOOD".  And then the allegations of Luca$ hiring Marquand because he was a "yes" man, so that ROTJ would be easier to make with Luca$ directing from the "back seat" with less people challenging him and so on.

"There's no cluster of midiclorians that controls my destiny!" -Han Solo, from a future revision of ANH

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Hoth-Nudist said:

During and post PT, I like many others discovered just how lazy and selfish Lucas was and some also speculated that ROTJ was the beginning of the end as far as quality goes.

Lazy Lucas, was Lazy.

Anyway, I was also nine when ROTJ came out.  But I didn't see it until sometime in the early nineties, I think.  I probably saw it twice between that and a few years ago.  But my wife always had a fondness for it from her childhood, and so I've seen it multiple times in the last few years. 

Since my expectations were adequately lowered by the time I finally saw it, I found it to be entertaining if flawed.  But it wasn't a letdown, other than having a "what if" feeling.

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Easterhay said:

So, I ask, who amongst the original fans (don't even bother posting a reply if you didn't see the films first time round - this is for the grown ups only!) genuinely thought Return Of The Jedi to be a let-down when first released?  And, if so, why?  Be honest now.

I do remember something that I was pretty disappointed about, from even before ROTJ came out...

That whole Death Star II thing.  Even back then, at the age of 12-13, it smacked of laziness and a cop-out.  I can vividly remember being let down, wondering why they couldn't come up with something more original than yet another Death Star.

There was another thing that bugged me then (and still does now) that no other straight male fanboy with a pulse is going to agree with me on, but here goes:

I didn't like the whole slave Leia in a bikini gimmick.  It seemed really cheap, pandering, and unnecessary.  Yeah, it was nice to look at, but at what price?  I lost a lot of respect for Lucas for putting that in there, because it stooped to a level that Star Wars didn't need to go to.

Other than that, I enjoyed ROTJ immensely.  Neither the Muppets nor the Ewoks really bothered me (though I always preferred the Cantina's denizens to Jabba's court, and Jawas over Ewoks), and the final scene with Luke and Vader still gives me chills.   Ford and Fisher's acting was definitely weaker on this film, and their characters are very watered-down, but Hamill really stepped up here and gave a command performance in the end.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
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In childhood nothing was better. ROTJ had it all. Once you've seen it dozens of times it begins to not hold up at all. Around 12 or 13 I really started to get bugged by all the inconsistencies and just simple lack of energy. Everyone seems to be doing this one for the numbers.

It is the lesser of the OT but still a real movie and it does tie all the necessary loose ends.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
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I was 23 when I saw ROTJ it in the theater, and I loved it.  I still do, and I don't agree with a lot of the criticisms of ROTJ.  But that's probably because I never expected it to be as good as SW, which I first saw at age 17 and thought (and still think) was one of the most brilliant films of all time.  Films like that are, to quote Han, one in a million.  On a scale of 1-10, I've always ranked the films something like:

SW-11
ESB-8
ROTJ-7
TPM-5
AOTC-3
ROTS-2

The truth is, I never liked the Vader-as-father and Leia-as-sister angle. It just made the universe smaller and hokier.  Once they went that route, there was pretty much no way to grow a real saga. To me, SW is still SW, not ANH.  But Yoda was cool and Jabba was cool (well, not in the SW-SE, but in ROTJ).  And of all the SE revisions, those in ROTJ are surely the most ghastly.

"Close the blast doors!"
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I wasn't around for its release, but ROTJ was the one film I never really got attached to as a kid. I always watched ANH and ESB to death, and maybe once in a while I might watch ROTJ. In fact, when I was 8 or 9, I taped over the first 30 minutes with Superdave Osbourne, if you can believe that, so I couldn't even remember hpw it began until I bought it in 1995 for the faces release. It didn't surprise me one bit when I read reviews for the 1997 SE and they were saying how it was always critically bashed. I saw ANH 4 times in 1997, but I only saw ROTJ once, so clearly the film never did it for me. I never thought anything of it when I came on the internet and found that other people found it so-so. I think I appreciate it more as I aged, to be honest, because I've become more and more attached to the characters and its fun to just see them as an ensemble.

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skyjedi2005 said:

Too bad Smith lost all credibility when he sold out and made More Jay and Silent Bob and a second Clerks.  Things he said he wouldn't do.

Sorry if someone's already said this in this thread (I stopped reading at this post).

But it wasn't "selling out."  Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back was made pretty much as an incentive for Jason Mewes to get off drugs.  It didn't work, and Smith cut contact with Jason, telling him that if he ever really got his shit together and could prove he was honestly 100% clean, he'd make one more Jay and Silent Bob movie for him.

Jason eventually did get clean, and Smith made Clerks II as a reward for him.

(All of this is chronicled in a VERY long series of blog posts by Smith that tell the whole story of his rocky friendship with Jason.  I'd post the link if I still had it.)

I don't see either of those as selling out, myself.  I don't particularly like JaSBSB, but I quite enjoyed Clerks II (nowhere near as good as the first, though).

If you want to talk about Kevin Smith selling out, Cop Out is the best example.

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I suppose I should talk about ROTJ now.

Well, I was born in '89, so I never saw the original originals in theaters.  I first saw the trilogy in '93 or '94, and wore out my VHS tapes long before the SE came out in '97.

But I watched ROTJ all the time as a kid.  My favorite film was always ESB, but every scene with Luke, Vader, and the Emperor in ROTJ was pure gold to me as a kid.  That's what I loved about Jedi.

Even as a 5-year-old, I would fast-forward through Jabba's palace and Endor, with the exceptions of the speeder bike chase and the sail barge fight.  The space battle didn't even interest me that much.  But the climactic lightsaber duel was my favorite moment of all 3 films.

It took me until a couple of years after the SE came out (possibly after TPM, maybe before) to really realize how inferior ROTJ was to the rest of the trilogy.  Another Death Star?  How lazy.  Vader does basically nothing in the first 3/4 of the movie?  Lame.  The Ewoks?  Don't get me started on the teddy bears that defeat "an entire legion" of the Emperor's "best troops."

And the number one, biggest thing that has always bothered me - from the first time I saw it until today - is the revelation that Leia is Luke's sister.  It just smacks of "We have to top 'I am your father' somehow!"  It just felt ... wrong.  It didn't belong.  And it still doesn't.

The other problem I have with it (and this might actually be bigger than the Leia-is-Luke's-sister thing) is that you never feel like the main characters are in any real danger.

You got that in SW, with the Death Star coming so close to destroying the rebel base, and Vader having a clear shot at Luke until Han finally sees the error of his ways and comes back to help.

You sure as hell got that in Empire, with Han captured and Luke physically and emotionally broken.

But in ROTJ, you never feel the danger.  There was a great opportunity to feel this for Leia in the speeder chase, but then two seconds later - oh, she's fine, and hey, she's found a nice teddy bear friend!

The closest ROTJ comes to giving you a sense that a main character is in serious danger is when the Emperor is zapping Luke with his lightning.  And it's all too short.

You never get the feeling that the rebels might lose.  You never get the feeling that Lando could die destroying the Death Star.  You never get the feeling that Han and Leia could be killed destroying the shield generator.

That's ROTJ's biggest problem.  It's too safe.

Star Wars = 9/10
The Empire Strikes Back = 10/10
Return of the Jedi = 7/10
The Phantom Menace = 5/10
Attack of the Clones = 2/10
Revenge of the Sith = 3/10

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Maybe Jedi was where the divide between the oot and the special editions and prequels began, because he finally became a father.  When he made star wars and empire he was not a dad.

Has to be the reason why Crystal Skull feels too safe and Indy is never in any danger.  Lucas became a softy when he aged and became a dad, he started changing his opinion on film violence and self censoring the same can be said of Spielberg who put the walkie talkies in E.T., much like Lucas had greedo shoot.

 

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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At least Steve put the original out in the same set at no extra cost.

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Gotta pitch in on this one!

I was 9 when Jedi came out and also loved it

It is easy to  forget the emotional impact of one scene in particular

That is luke forcing vader backwards after he shouts "NEVER!"

That little segment was incredibly powerful because for the best part of 2 and a half movies and 5-6 cinematic years(77'-83') Vader kicked ass.

We have probably all seen ROTJ  a zillion times that that particular sequence no longer has any(or the same ) resonance that it once had.

And whilst it does not have quite the same power the same applies to the battle between the ewoks and  the stormtroopers.

For the first time in 3 movies the troops were getting beat well and truly.

And that was Jedi's power.

A power that we have become desensitized to over the passage of time.

But hey that is my personal opinion!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.

kurtb8474 1 week ago

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8


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skyjedi2005 said:

Maybe Jedi was where the divide between the oot and the special editions and prequels began, because he finally became a father.  When he made star wars and empire he was not a dad.

Has to be the reason why Crystal Skull feels too safe and Indy is never in any danger.  Lucas became a softy when he aged and became a dad, he started changing his opinion on film violence and self censoring the same can be said of Spielberg who put the walkie talkies in E.T., much like Lucas had greedo shoot.

 

Growing up watching these two guys' movies during the 1980's, it was sad to see them lose their original energy and enthusiasm for film-making. Although Spielberg fared better than Lucas, matured as a director and made some good movies in subsequent years (but E.T. SE was still a big mistake, IMO).

Lucas never really liked working actors or directing, so the only conclusion for him doing the awful PT is complete creative control. And the results speak for themselves. Control the purse strings and the script and camera and surround himself with Yes-men.

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skyjedi2005 said:

Maybe Jedi was where the divide between the oot and the special editions and prequels began, because he finally became a father.  When he made star wars and empire he was not a dad.

 

 I totally buy this theory.  And in fairness to Lucas, this happens to any artist who does something exceptional.  As Mickey said to Rocky in Rocky III, "Like every great champion, you became civilized and lost that edge."

I believe alot of these directors change when they have kids as first they lose that edge and become 'soft.'  Its natural but I think when they are writing, directing, etc, they think, "How will my kids like this?"  When Lucas was shooting SW in 1976 he was thinking, "How will I like this?"

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ChainsawAsh said:

skyjedi2005 said:

Too bad Smith lost all credibility when he sold out and made More Jay and Silent Bob and a second Clerks.  Things he said he wouldn't do.

Sorry if someone's already said this in this thread (I stopped reading at this post).

But it wasn't "selling out."  Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back was made pretty much as an incentive for Jason Mewes to get off drugs.  It didn't work, and Smith cut contact with Jason, telling him that if he ever really got his shit together and could prove he was honestly 100% clean, he'd make one more Jay and Silent Bob movie for him.

Jason eventually did get clean, and Smith made Clerks II as a reward for him.

(All of this is chronicled in a VERY long series of blog posts by Smith that tell the whole story of his rocky friendship with Jason.  I'd post the link if I still had it.)

I don't see either of those as selling out, myself.  I don't particularly like JaSBSB, but I quite enjoyed Clerks II (nowhere near as good as the first, though).

 

Thanks for posting this, I was gonna say the same thing. Smith's blog posts were amazing. And the video that Mewes recorded for Kevin to say thanks was incredibly heartfelt.

Anyway, back on topic...

I love Jedi. I saw it one Christmas on TV for the first time, I must have been between the ages of five and seven ('85-'87 - I'm 32 now). I loved it then and love it now. I can see why people don't like it, but that does not, in any way change my opinion of it at all.

It's easily my favourite of the six (or three, if you'd prefer).

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Bingowings said:



There are people on here who love TPM because they are young enough to be nostalgic for it.

The same goes with ROTJ.

But if you brake the film down, look at the art design, the writing the acting, the attention to detail, even the scoreROTJ is the weakest film of the OT and set the scene for almost everything wrong with the PT.


Now, I TOTALLY disagree with that statement. I think Jedi has the strongest score of the original 3 films. "Luke & Leia" is the finest theme John Williams wrote for the trilogy.

Just sayin'. ;-)