I lowkey would’ve preferred if Anakin joined the Sith at least in part to combat the rising threat of Palpatine, only for Palps to lay his ass flat and make him his bitch.
“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”
― Leo Tolstoy
Yoda should have been Obi-Wan’s Master and instructor in the ways of the Jedi. When Obi-Wan contacts Luke as a spectral force ghost he says to go to Dagobah to be trained by the Jedi Master who trained him. He doesn’t say well Luke contact Qui-Gon’s ghost he was my master he will teach you the ways of the force.
Yoda should have been Obi-Wan’s Master and instructor in the ways of the Jedi. When Obi-Wan contacts Luke as a spectral force ghost he says to go to Dagobah to be trained by the Jedi Master who trained him. He doesn’t say well Luke contact Qui-Gon’s ghost he was my master he will teach you the ways of the force.
I suspect Force Ghosts can only interact with those who met them in life, which is why Obi-Wan pointed Luke in Yoda’s direction, also why waste time mentioning a long deceased Jedi Master who is irrelevant to Luke?
I’ve come up with a great analogy for why Anakin’s turn doesn’t work.
Imagine you have a romantic partner and they get into a terrible car accident. You’ve been in the hospital for 3 days and there’s a possibility she may die. You’re worried sick and have barely slept. Satan himself (for the record, I’m an atheist, but this is hypothetical) appears to you and says, “I’ll save her if you kill all of your neighbors, coworkers and their families, every friend you’ve ever had and their families, your entire extended family, and your partner’s entire extended family. This includes any of the children or babies.”
Who would do that?
Like, pact with the devil stories exist, but that’s just way too far. If he just showed up and said, “I’m gonna save your partner in exchange for your soul”, then sure, I can see someone doing that, even if it’s still not smart. But murdering everyone that you know for a deal that you don’t even know for certain whether they can or will actually do it, someone you know is evil and a liar? It’s just beyond stupid.
The only way it works is if Anakin has tangible evidence that there is a dark side power to cheat death and the knowledge exists to learn. Anakin should become evil, but not be stupid to agree to a bargain when he has nothing to go on except a story.
‘Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.’
‘Consume you it will, as it did Obi-wan’s apprentice.’
The only problem is there was no dark path, not really. Anakin killed a lot of Tuskens but it didn’t lead down a path of more bloodshed. He didn’t become more brutal and start executing separatist leaders or winning battles through darkside rage powers. They darkside barely consumed him at all, and his personality is basically the same once Hayden took the role. Where’s the twisted and evil stuff? He just does what Palpy tells him, but even this loyalty seems to come out of nowhere. Which is why his murder of children seems so out of place, he just seems to do it on whim. It’s more of a path to being a more of a dumbass.
The gulf between the OT and the prequel is just too wide for me. I’m never going to accept them as a true continuation of that story. Lucas original prequel concept fit the OT why he changed it only he knows. Many of the canon contradictions were preventable. That isn’t to say the OT is perfect i still think Leia as the sister is stupid. Vader reveal as Luke’s father works because it was done well, imagine if it had been handled as badly as the prequel.
What was the original PT concept?
Vader hunting down and killing the Jedi instead of order 66, Anakin’s wife living and going to Alderaan with Leia. I wish i could find the article talking about it. The one Lucas came up with in the 1980s. It also has Palpatine as a Nixon type who subverts a democracy.
I believe it might be touched upon in Paul Duncan’s book but i don’t have that one myself.
Vader hunting down and killing the Jedi instead of order 66, Anakin’s wife living and going to Alderaan with Leia. I wish i could find the article talking about it. The one Lucas came up with in the 1980s. It also has Palpatine as a Nixon type who subverts a democracy.
I believe it might be touched upon in Paul Duncan’s book but i don’t have that one myself.
Is it one of these?
Star Wars prequels were mapped out in 1981, only nothing like the way they turned out - from Rinzler’s Making Of ROTJ book.
Interesting Hypothesis of the Prequels Story from the Mid 90’s - John L. Flynn’s PT story
There are more similar threads in the ‘General Prequel Trilogy Discussion’ part of the An Index for Beyond the Original Trilogy, so it could be in there if it isn’t in the above two threads?
“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas
I’ve come up with a great analogy for why Anakin’s turn doesn’t work.
Imagine you have a romantic partner and they get into a terrible car accident. You’ve been in the hospital for 3 days and there’s a possibility she may die. You’re worried sick and have barely slept. Satan himself (for the record, I’m an atheist, but this is hypothetical) appears to you and says, “I’ll save her if you kill all of your neighbors, coworkers and their families, every friend you’ve ever had and their families, your entire extended family, and your partner’s entire extended family. This includes any of the children or babies.”
Who would do that?
There has to be some parallel between Anakin being tricked into becoming Space Hitler and the Senate being tricked into becoming Space Nazi Germany, though. I don’t think this is a mistake or a failure of the prequels, but genuinely how George Lucas views the world, or at least the message he was trying to convey.
Reading R + L ≠ J theories
I think it’s quite intentional that Palpatine creates the illusion, or phantom, of menace to Anakin and the Senate, then positions himself as the only one who can protect them with some vague promise of power or security. Both parties take the bait and end up hopelessly corrupted. It’s a brilliant bit of parallel storytelling.
Or it would be if it was handled with any sort of competence. Execution is everything, and instead of working like a Shakespearean Tragedy it lands like a wet farce.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
I will say something nice about the prequels for once. I liked Maul’s reveal when the doors open and the music starts up for Duel of the Fates. In Phantom Menace.
I always liked Qui-Gon but the character fits nowhere in the Star Wars Lucas set up in the original trilogy.
I always liked Qui-Gon but the character fits nowhere in the Star Wars Lucas set up in the original trilogy.
I got into the Jedi Apprentice YA series before I saw TPM. I think my evaluation of the character was informed by those books first-and-foremost, and I wasn’t able to distinguish Lucas Qui-Gon from EU Qui-Gon until years later.
“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”
― Leo Tolstoy
One thing I’ve seen being constantly praised about TPM is the lightsaber fight of Maul vs Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but I personally don’t like it at all, as I find it far too choreographed for my taste.
One thing I’ve seen being constantly praised about TPM is the lightsaber fight of Maul vs Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but I personally don’t like it at all, as I find it far too choreographed for my taste.
“Star Wars: The (Totally) Phantom Menace” - 3 minute YouTube video on TPM lightsaber fight.
It never fails to make me smile.
The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.
Formerly Emre1601 - computer hard drives are brittle too!
As a visual spectacle that duel is still good fun for me. After a few watches, the actual ‘sword fighting’ felt apart, and that section of amped up Obi-Wan vs Maul got shorter and shorter ha.
Of all the revisionist takes of the PT that came up after Disney started crapping the bed, the way the twirly glow stick fights have been elevated kind of baffled me.
It’s the best duel in the PT. Which isn’t saying much, but still.
“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”
― Leo Tolstoy
Personally I consider the rematch of Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin in RotS to be the best of the PT and my personal favourite. It was brief, simple and elegantly choreographed.
Personally I consider the rematch of Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin in RotS to be the best of the PT and my personal favourite. It was brief, simple and elegantly choreographed.
I thought the short duel between Qui-Gon and Maul on Tatooine was the best of the PT.
“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord
It has great world building, creatures, iconic duels (Jango vs Kenobi), and etc. But the chemistry between the cast is not strong like in The OT. The romance between Anakin & Padme feels like two people with no chemistry doing a Romeo & Juliet play at High School.
The Dialouge… while there are some great memeable lines, the reality is most of it is clunky and to quote Han Solo himself, “you can write this Sith (replacement for another word, it really is that word scrambled) George, but you can’t say it!” (Harrison Ford)
The Words, Tech, Ships, Duels, Music, Costumes, and Vision is great, but the characters are flat compared to the OT who’s entire cast played off each other well.
“There is a tremor in the Force.”
“Give yourself to the dark side.” -Lord Vader
Personally I consider the rematch of Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin in RotS to be the best of the PT and my personal favourite. It was brief, simple and elegantly choreographed.
I thought the short duel between Qui-Gon and Maul on Tatooine was the best of the PT.
I had forgot about that duel. The one where Maul nearly kills young Anakin by running him over for no reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMlUmUlu9M0
It felt like the duel closest resembling a lightsaber fight to the Original Trilogy to me.
The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.
Formerly Emre1601 - computer hard drives are brittle too!
Disney Sequel Trilogy,TCW Show and Kenobi Show have affected my enjoyment of the Prequel Trilogy Movies now i dont care about this Trilogy anymore i consider this Era to be very Boring
I’ve come up with a great analogy for why Anakin’s turn doesn’t work.
Imagine you have a romantic partner and they get into a terrible car accident. You’ve been in the hospital for 3 days and there’s a possibility she may die. You’re worried sick and have barely slept. Satan himself (for the record, I’m an atheist, but this is hypothetical) appears to you and says, “I’ll save her if you kill all of your neighbors, coworkers and their families, every friend you’ve ever had and their families, your entire extended family, and your partner’s entire extended family. This includes any of the children or babies.”
Who would do that?
Like, pact with the devil stories exist, but that’s just way too far. If he just showed up and said, “I’m gonna save your partner in exchange for your soul”, then sure, I can see someone doing that, even if it’s still not smart. But murdering everyone that you know for a deal that you don’t even know for certain whether they can or will actually do it, someone you know is evil and a liar? It’s just beyond stupid.
The only way it works is if Anakin has tangible evidence that there is a dark side power to cheat death and the knowledge exists to learn. Anakin should become evil, but not be stupid to agree to a bargain when he has nothing to go on except a story.
Yeah. There needed to be some reason for Anakin to actually hate the Jedi - not just be moderately pissed that they bitched about his seat on the Council. And Anakin needed to be shown experimenting with Dark Side powers himself, even without Palpatine’s prompting - and we need to see how the Dark Side is actually more powerful or useful in some way (at least in Anakin’s mind). We need to see Anakin actually realize the “power of the Dark Side” somehow.
Palpatine’s role should be to encourage and cultivate Anakin’s worst instincts, not just “trick” Anakin into spontaneously mass-murdering everyone he’s ever known with a vague promise.
There needed to be some major ideological disagreement between Anakin and the Jedi, along with some disaster that seems to prove Anakin right, at least in his own mind. (Maybe Anakin thinks the Jedi are too obsessed with their moral code, making them less effective than they should be against a wartime enemy that has zero moral qualms. Maybe Padme dies during a massive attack on Coruscant, and Anakin blames the Jedi for failing to prevent it.)
Is it one of these?
Star Wars prequels were mapped out in 1981, only nothing like the way they turned out - from Rinzler’s Making Of ROTJ book.
That thread has an excellent post by a user named CP3S (from 10 years ago). It pretty much sums up my feelings as the definitive critique of Anakin’s botched tragedy:
Somewhere in the depth of this forum we have a thread discussing good characters turning bad, and whether or not it is possible for it to be done convincingly. That was a fun thread, I thought of it sometime back while watching Breaking Bad.
You start off with Walt, an easy to sympathize with character and you grow attached to him. They put him in a dire situation and make him do bad things for a noble reason. So you still sympathize. As the show progresses, his dire situation turns around, and his bad actions slowly cause him to lose the noble reason for doing them. Eventually, when you take the time to think about it, you realize Walt is just a bad guy. But you still can’t shake that sympathy for him that was built at the beginning. He continues to do these bad things, but is now driven by greed and pride, rather than the intended selfless sacrifice for his family that started him off on that path. It is the best story of a fall into evil that I have ever encountered.
I don’t think it is impossible, or even necessarily that hard, to make a beloved character sink into becoming the villain. We all loved Darth Vader before, but imagine how we’d feel about him now if George had managed to make Anakin a character we loved and sympathized with as much as Luke. Instead he was just a bitch from the beginning that you couldn’t wait to see Obi-Wan smack around a bit before he finally grew a pair and donned his leather suit.
Well said.
My only criticism would be that Walt’s descent into evil was spread over 6 seasons of television, whereas with Anakin you only have 3 movies. Plus, the starting and ending point of Anakin’s arc (selfless hero to mass-murdering fascist cyborg) is more of a wide gap to cross than Walt’s journey from mild-mannered chemist to meth kingpin. So writing Anakin’s fall is definitely MUCH harder. It would be hard for even the best of screenwriters to pull it off. Lucas didn’t stand a chance.
But at the same time, Lucas also made it WAY worse than it needed to be, making tons of bizarre mistakes, like wasting the entire first film by not even including adult Anakin in it.
If not for Anakin being a greedy dumbass, i’d blame his fall completely on the prequel Jedi. They did everything they could to make him bottle up his feelings and be afraid of them, separate him from his only family and teach him that human bonds of compassion and affection were abnormal.
The Jedi were like a weird cult.
Had he been freed as a slave on Tatooine, he either would have been a pilot on a freighter making grain or water shipments, or a moisture farmer if not conscripted into the Imperial Navy. And probably not become Darth Vader, though its hard to say.