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Unpopular Opinion Thread — Page 29

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Spartacus01 said:

I don’t think that the Jedi deserved the Purge. But I believe that they needed to be reformed, because I am of the opinion that some of their dogmas were wrong. As I said in another post, I think that the Jedi were good people with good intentions, and I believe that Anakin had serious psychological problems that needed to be fixed. However, I also believe that he can’t be 100% blamed for what happened, and I think that the Jedi made some mistakes with him. Therefore, I think that the downfall of the Jedi was kind of everyone’s fault. It was equally fault of Anakin, Palpatine, and the Jedi themselves. The same goes for Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side. In my opinion, it is way too simplistic to believe that the Jedi did nothing wrong and it was all Anakin and Palpatine’s fault, just as it is way too simplistic to believe that Anakin did nothing wrong and it was all fault of the Jedi Order.

As you may know, I personally view the Jedi in a more positive light, but I respect your take and understand the reasoning.

In fact, one point I think we can both possibly agree on is that the Order was far too naive in believing a former Jedi like Dooku could never cause harm. Perhaps it goes to show how much they trusted Dooku. Perhaps it goes to show how rare it is for Jedi to fall. Either way, justifiably or not, it was a possibility they overlooked. It was a mistake they made.

Move along, move along.

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The Jedi as individuals aren’t bad (mostly). The Jedi as an institution, on the other hand…

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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[double post]

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Superweapon VII said:

The Jedi as individuals aren’t bad (mostly). The Jedi as an institution, on the other hand…

If you’re interested, I just commented in the ‘Did Lucas intend for the Jedi to be flawed’ thread. It was semi-prompted by this comment of yours.

Move along, move along.

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I haven’t read them but based on what we know of them i think George Lucas sequel treatments sucked.

Everyone online is like zomg why didn’t Disney make his sequels.

Whills and Midichlorians and Darth Maul as the big bad are terrible.

The actual trilogy Lucasfilm made under Disney ownership is probably not as bad. But also is disjointed because they wanted to avoid prequel like worldbuilding and politics. And it was a bit of an overcorrection. They really should have shown where the resistance and first order came from, how Kylo Ren came to be and who Snoke was and why Luke failed. And i don’t mean the answers Rise of Skywalker gave.

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The Sequel Trilogy should have been a Prequel Trilogy 2.0. They should have acknowledged the victories of the previous generation, and should have shown the Galaxy in a peaceful state at the beginning. Then, they should have shown how things started to get worse and worse, until someone falls to the Dark Side and destroys everything again. After that, the fourth trilogy should have been about re-establishing democracy and freedom in the Galaxy and fighting evil, like the Original Trilogy.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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Although I respect everyone’s opinions, I have never understood people who say that the Prequels shouldn’t have existed and that it wasn’t necessary to know Anakin Skywalker’s backstory. Personally, I am of the opinion that knowing the backstory of a villain makes the moment of his redemption way more impactful. If you don’t know the backstory of a villain, the moment in which he is redeemed is certainly beautiful, but It is not so impactful. He remains simply that, a villain who is redeemed. On the contrary, if you know the reasons why he became a villain, then the moment of his redemption takes on a completely different meaning.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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If there’s one Special Edition Trilogy change I could keep in the OT, it would be the extra shots of the Wampa in TESB. I never liked the fact that we never get a clear look at the Wampa, only brief glimpses. Another thing I like is that it’s a guy in a costume, a practical effect, so it blends well with the rest of the movie.

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fmalover said:

If there’s one Special Edition Trilogy change I could keep in the OT, it would be the extra shots of the Wampa in TESB. I never liked the fact that we never get a clear look at the Wampa, only brief glimpses. Another thing I like is that it’s a guy in a costume, a practical effect, so it blends well with the rest of the movie.

One of the least offensive alterations to be sure. Lucas should’ve used the opportunity to give the wampa a consistent appearance, though.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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From my own experience, I can tell that casual fans are the kind of fans that experience Star Wars in the best possible way. When you are overly attached and overly obsessed with Star Wars, you have nothing but constant arguments and continuous headaches, you always find something to criticize, and the way you experience Star Wars is not as relaxed as it should be. On the other hand, when you are a more casual fan who just wants to enjoy Star Wars and doesn’t care very much about anything outside of the films, you really have the best experience because you have a more relaxed approach to the whole thing. Sure, you can still dislike some of the movies, but you will have a more relaxed approach in general, because your dislike will not go beyond the simple “I don’t like this, this and that”, without carrying your sentiment over time as if it was an obsession, indeed, and without being frustrated for the rest of your life because things didn’t go the way you wanted to.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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Personally, I think that it’s way more fun to fill in the blanks with your own imagination than having TV shows, books and comics before, between, and after the movies. Using your own imagination to imagine what happened between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith is way more fun than watching The Clone Wars, or reading the Clone Wars Multimedia Project. Using your own imagination to imagine what happened in the Old Republic era is much more fun than playing Knights of the Old Republic, or playing the Old Republic MMO. Using your own imagination to imagine Luke’s future adventures after Return of the Jedi is way more fun than reading the EU, or watching the Sequels.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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Spartacus01 said:

Personally, I think that it’s way more fun to fill in the blanks with your own imagination than having TV shows, books and comics before, between, and after the movies. Using your own imagination to imagine what happened between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith is way more fun than watching The Clone Wars, or reading the Clone Wars Multimedia Project. Using your own imagination to imagine what happened in the Old Republic era is much more fun than playing Knights of the Old Republic, or playing the Old Republic MMO. Using your own imagination to imagine Luke’s future adventures after Return of the Jedi is way more fun than reading the EU, or watching the Sequels.

I don’t think this is an unpopular opinion.

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I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.

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Gandalf the Cyan said:

I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.

I think that’s dead on, I’d add that apart from 2001 A Space Odyssey, which was long and confusing and boring to general audiences, Star Wars was the most realistic sci-fi adventure ever made, and everything from the props to the sound effects and costumes were never overtly cartoonish which lent a new level of immersion not thought possible for the adventure genre for anybody over the age of 9.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Gandalf the Cyan said:

I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.

I agree 100%. It’s fair to have high expectations, but expecting every Star Wars movie to be a perfect, flawless work of art is unrealistic, and it’s exactly what a lot of fans don’t seem to understand. Star Wars is always beautiful, even when it has some flaws. If it didnt have flaws, there would be nothing to talk about, and places like this forum wouldn’t even exist.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker

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Gandalf the Cyan said:

I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.

I don’t think this opinion is too unpopular, especially around this forum. ESB especially came out amazingly good, but went over budget and probably gave Lucas ulcers from the stress. He probably never intended to make Star Wars that good - but it ended up being that good anyway due to “lightning in a bottle” factors like Kasdan’s script, Kershner’s direction, and the natural chemistry between Hamill, Fisher and Ford.

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Channel72 said:

Gandalf the Cyan said:

I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.

I don’t think this opinion is too unpopular, especially around this forum. ESB especially came out amazingly good, but went over budget and probably gave Lucas ulcers from the stress. He probably never intended to make Star Wars that good - but it ended up being that good anyway due to “lightning in a bottle” factors like Kasdan’s script, Kershner’s direction, and the natural chemistry between Hamill, Fisher and Ford.

Why does everyone ignore the fact that TESB was co-written by Leigh Brackett? They always make it seem like Lawrence Kasdan was the sole screenwriter.

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fmalover said:

Channel72 said:

Gandalf the Cyan said:

I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.

I don’t think this opinion is too unpopular, especially around this forum. ESB especially came out amazingly good, but went over budget and probably gave Lucas ulcers from the stress. He probably never intended to make Star Wars that good - but it ended up being that good anyway due to “lightning in a bottle” factors like Kasdan’s script, Kershner’s direction, and the natural chemistry between Hamill, Fisher and Ford.

Why does everyone ignore the fact that TESB was co-written by Leigh Brackett? They always make it seem like Lawrence Kasdan was the sole screenwriter.

Well, I definitely don’t ignore that. In fact, I posted a whole thread about Brackett’s screenplay a while back. But the reality is that close to 0% of Brackett’s draft made it into the final shooting script, so her role is often glossed over for the sake of brevity when discussing the development process of ESB.

In fact, I wouldn’t even necessarily say Brackett “co-wrote” ESB. That implies a collaboration between Brackett and Kasdan. In reality, Brackett independently wrote a completely different take on ESB based on Lucas’ plot outline. Lucas then rewrote the script from scratch apparently. It’s hard to say how many ideas in Lucas’ rewrite originated with Brackett. At face value, the later Kasdan scripts (which were based on Lucas’ rewrite) appear to be completely independent from Brackett.

Personally, I believe that elements of Brackett’s draft influenced the way Kasdan/Lucas thought about the story as they developed it. But that’s just my own speculation. The broad story elements - the plot, the locations, even some specific things like Luke being attacked by a snow monster - originated from Lucas’ plot outline, not Brackett’s draft. So it’s tough to identify specific ideas in the final script that unambiguously originated with Brackett. But going by Kasdan’s fourth draft and the final shooting script, pretty much 0% of Brackett’s original writing or dialogue carried over into later iterations.

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Channel72 said:

fmalover said:

Channel72 said:

Gandalf the Cyan said:

I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.

I don’t think this opinion is too unpopular, especially around this forum. ESB especially came out amazingly good, but went over budget and probably gave Lucas ulcers from the stress. He probably never intended to make Star Wars that good - but it ended up being that good anyway due to “lightning in a bottle” factors like Kasdan’s script, Kershner’s direction, and the natural chemistry between Hamill, Fisher and Ford.

Why does everyone ignore the fact that TESB was co-written by Leigh Brackett? They always make it seem like Lawrence Kasdan was the sole screenwriter.

Well, I definitely don’t ignore that. In fact, I posted a whole thread about Brackett’s screenplay a while back. But the reality is that close to 0% of Brackett’s draft made it into the final shooting script, so her role is often glossed over for the sake of brevity when discussing the development process of ESB.

In fact, I wouldn’t even necessarily say Brackett “co-wrote” ESB. That implies a collaboration between Brackett and Kasdan. In reality, Brackett independently wrote a completely different take on ESB based on Lucas’ plot outline. Lucas then rewrote the script from scratch apparently. It’s hard to say how many ideas in Lucas’ rewrite originated with Brackett. At face value, the later Kasdan scripts (which were based on Lucas’ rewrite) appear to be completely independent from Brackett.

Personally, I believe that elements of Brackett’s draft influenced the way Kasdan/Lucas thought about the story as they developed it. But that’s just my own speculation. The broad story elements - the plot, the locations, even some specific things like Luke being attacked by a snow monster - originated from Lucas’ plot outline, not Brackett’s draft. So it’s tough to identify specific ideas in the final script that unambiguously originated with Brackett. But going by Kasdan’s fourth draft and the final shooting script, pretty much 0% of Brackett’s original writing or dialogue carried over into later iterations.

So Brackett was credited as a screenwriter as an acknoledgement of her involvement?

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Leigh Brackett was a Hollywood legend, she was very ill when writing for Lucas (she passed away soon after IIRC), so as an hommage to a great lady, her name was kept in the credits even if none of her writing was used.

Han: Hey Lando! You kept your promise, right? Not a scratch?
Lando: Well, what’s left of her isn’t scratched. All the scratched parts got knocked off along the way.
Han (exasperated): Knocked off?!

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Z6PO said:

Leigh Brackett was a Hollywood legend, she was very ill when writing for Lucas (she passed away soon after IIRC), so as an hommage to a great lady, her name was kept in the credits even if none of her writing was used.

Thanks for clearing that up.

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Last Jedi is a better made film than Return of the Jedi, and Return is a bad sequel to The Empire Strikes Back.

I might like Lukes’s portrayal more in ROTJ, but its a weak entry.

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Part of me wants to object, but I never even finished TLJ, so who am I to claim otherwise?

I certainly agree ROTJ’s weak. I don’t even enjoy watching it anymore. Everything between the sail barge showdown and the lightsaber duel cures me of insomnia.

“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”

― Leo Tolstoy

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Superweapon VII said:

Part of me wants to object, but I never even finished TLJ, so who am I to claim otherwise?

I certainly agree ROTJ’s weak. I don’t even enjoy watching it anymore. Everything between the sail barge showdown and the lightsaber duel cures me of insomnia.

ROTJ starts to drag badly as soon as they get to Endor. The ending space battle is cool though. The Endor forest sequences are just really slow, long, and visually uninspiring, apart from the speeder bike chase. It’s mostly just Han and Leia walking through the woods in California (a very fan-filmy looking setting), they run into some useless Stormtroopers, they get separated, they spend like 10 years screwing around with Ewoks, they bumble around some more in the woods, etc. etc. And there’s no concurrent B-story line that breaks up all this Endor monotony, except for when we occasionally check in with Vader and the Emperor, both of whom are basically just waiting around.