The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 137

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

[yotsuya said:]

Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.

Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

[yotsuya said:]

Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.

Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.

But no mention of the First Order, one of the cruxes of your argument.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

[yotsuya said:]

Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.

Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.

But no mention of the First Order, one of the cruxes of your argument.

He mentions Snoke, who runs the FO, and how is the FO one of the cruxes? He saw enough suffering to want to kill his own blood. The same man who refused to kill Darth Vader, the second most evil man in the galaxy, responsible for the death and suffering of millions of people. That should tell you enough about the scale of the suffering he saw, for Luke to be so distressed.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

[yotsuya said:]

Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.

Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.

He also sheathed his saber a second later and decided to not kill Kylo. Again, much the same as ROTJ with Vader…except he was really trying to kill him then after finding out old dad was going to try and turn Leia.

After thinking about this for a while longer (this site has that effect doesn’t it? :😃

I think a lot of the angst with TLJ comes from the marked difference in presentation between the OT and this film…Luke in the OT and the story in general is one of mythology as we all know but it was also written and filmed like a mythological tale. The hero’s are right and the villains wrong…the contrast is deep and wide between the two…very black and white.

We see it as a parable and a story in that very light.

With TLJ we see that changed quite drastically imo. Luke is a Jedi master but he is also very human with human flaws and frailties. We see the rebellion/resistance repeatedly fail and that is a jolt for those of us who have been waiting to see the OT style of story telling. It was for me but in hindsight I was happier for it as it opens this franchise and story to open up into many more possibilities. Looking back at the EU the main plot is always similar to one another.

I felt a closer affiliation with Luke in TLJ because we’ve all failed and messed things up but he was able to find a reason to pick himself up and realize he was wrong…he made things right as he could.

Collipso said:

And to those comparing TLJ with TESB: I find it easier to relate to someone that has a lack of self trust and was lied to and has his world destroyed, than someone whose failure was almost murdering his family. I actually think it’s pretty hard to relate to the latter.

Luke is far more relatable in TLJ than ROTJ in my opinion. Obviously once you get into specifics it falls apart in any of the films. But the Luke of TLJ is one that had a moment of weakness years ago and has regretted it ever since. The fact that he was tempted to kill his nephew doesn’t really make him un-relatable when you factor in the things that brought him there that have no analogues to anyone’s life (force visions, the dark side, etc.). It’s the broad strokes that are important.

Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?

Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.

NeverarGreat said:

Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.

For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.

I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.

I’m not sure what the fleet would have done at Starkiller? Not to mention that’s literally a throwaway line in TFA about the NR fleet that I think I didn’t catch until my 6th viewing.

As for the bombers, they seem pretty unwieldy. I doubt they’d have been much of a threat against the hundreds of TIEs at Starkiller if they could be picked off so easily. Not to mention who even knows if they have hyperspace capabilities.

(as for the A-wings, I guess you just have to assume they were off doing something like whatever most of the X-wings were doing in this one)

I’m not really sure what about TLJ invites this much scrutiny? I don’t think there’s anything really technical about the plot. “Resistance fleet is faster so it can keep out of range until the fuel goes out”? I don’t really see how that’s much more complicated than other SW plots, it seems to fit right in with “Falcon needs to find a safe place away from the Imperial fleet to fix the hyperdrive so they can regroup with the rest of the rebels.”

If you don’t know how to turn off your brain from looking for plot holes that seems like a problem with you, not the movie.

TV’s Frink said:

Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?

Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.

I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?

Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.

I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.

What’s the punishment then?

Mrebo said:

NeverarGreat said:

Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.

For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.

I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.

It’s like the reason people want to know who Snoke is. It’s not because Snoke must be so important in his own right. We want to know how the galaxy-wide celebrations (is that heretical to say here?) at the end of ROTJ gave way to…a new Empire(?) with limitless resources. We assume it’s because of Snoke. And so we want to know how it happened.

Who was the Emperor? How did the Empire get how it was in the OT? The OT didn’t answer these questions and people aren’t complaining about that now.

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?

Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.

Being saved is different from punishment and forgiveness. I think there are people who commit evil acts who do change. Whether they stay behind bars is another matter. I know someone who refused to forgive a parent for something they did (vis a vis others) and even refused to attend the parent’s funeral. I think the child was wrong but that’s me.

I understand the difference. I just don’t know how the character’s story progresses after he turns back to the light. Either all is forgiven, or he’s punished…and if he’s punished, it’s either killing him or locking him up forever. Nothing else makes sense.

I guess in the Star Wars universe you could find something interesting to do with killing him (force ghost I guess) but that’s an odd turn. If you lock him up forever, then what?

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?

Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.

I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.

What’s the punishment then?

I’m sure there are plenty of things they could do we aren’t even thinking about.

I feel like I’ve said this before, but I kinda really want them to redeem Kylo in some way. If he goes out a complete villain, like so many want, to me that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t like to place specific expectations on unseen movies like this, but if they did that I’d be a little disappointed. It’s antithetical to what Star Wars is about.