Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.
For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.
I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.
It’s like the reason people want to know who Snoke is. It’s not because Snoke must be so important in his own right. We want to know how the galaxy-wide celebrations (is that heretical to say here?) at the end of ROTJ gave way to…a new Empire(?) with limitless resources. We assume it’s because of Snoke. And so we want to know how it happened.
Who was the Emperor? How did the Empire get how it was in the OT? The OT didn’t answer these questions and people aren’t complaining about that now.
We didn’t need to know who the Emperor was or how he rose to power because that happened before our story started. Wanting to know who this guy is, where he’s been all this time and how he undid what our OT heroes accomplished so quickly is very different.
I got no dog in this fight, but this is a defense I see often and it doesn’t work.
Exactly. The Emperor was a part of the table setting in the original film, taken as a given. If you then change the story, you have to give a reason why.
Say that the OT was never filmed, with the movies going straight from ROTS to TFA. The opening crawl states that some Rebellion arose and destroyed the Empire and Luke overthrew the old regime almost singlehandedly. You’d probably feel cheated out of a pretty important story, wouldn’t you?
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
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Snoke’s rise to power isn’t important in the ST though. Most of all the information you need for the story that’s being told is there.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
I can agree with this. That’s why I wish this was it’s own series instead of keeping the episode numbers. There’s clearly another trilogy worth of info that we’ve missed. Maybe that info isn’t important to this current tale, but it is important to the larger story.
A person miffed that the ST undoes the victories won in the OT and resets the galaxy to Empire vs Rebels with no explanation is a person with a valid complaint.
Snoke’s origin could have been included as one throwaway line. Which begs the question why does anyone want it, because he was just generic evil guy no.27. He killed someone or did something, who cares. The end of ROTJ was eroded over 3 decades so of course things have changed. I’m sure the EU immediately ruined the “happy ending” too with a hundred despotic Empire guys and Dark Jedi weirdos.
Snoke’s rise to power isn’t important in the ST though. Most of all the information you need for the story that’s being told is there.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
It is a sequel to ROTJ. The fact that it takes place so many years later is all the more reason to set the scene. It’s a cop out to expect the audience to accept anything just because a lot of time passed. It’s not important to the story how 3PO got a red arm and cosmetic changes are expected. It is important how the Empire/FO recovered under the rule of a Sith(?) after it appeared thoroughly beaten.
The blue elephant in the room.
Snoke’s origin could have been included as one throwaway line. Which begs the question why does anyone want it, because he was just generic evil guy no.27. He killed someone or did something, who cares. The end of ROTJ was eroded over 3 decades so of course things have changed. I’m sure the EU immediately ruined the “happy ending” too with a hundred despotic Empire guys and Dark Jedi weirdos.
And not everyone loves all the EU. Setting the scene is not a “throwaway” because it can be easy to do. I’m not saying a couple of lines would be entirely satisfying either.
The blue elephant in the room.
Snoke’s origin could have been included as one throwaway line. Which begs the question why does anyone want it, because he was just generic evil guy no.27. He killed someone or did something, who cares.
He turned Han and Leia’s only son to the Dark Side, and through this destroyed Luke’s Jedi academy. He is personally responsible for building a weapon of unfathomable power using unexplained technology, and destroying the entire New Republic.
He is the most personally and inexplicably calamitous force in the lives of the OT characters in The Force Awakens.
Making him into generic evil guy no.27 means that everything our heroes have ever fought for was undone by generic evil guy no.27.
I’m not even that annoyed by it, but I can see how some people would be.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
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The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
I can agree with this. That’s why I wish this was it’s own series instead of keeping the episode numbers. There’s clearly another trilogy worth of info that we’ve missed. Maybe that info isn’t important to this current tale, but it is important to the larger story.
A person miffed that the ST undoes the victories won in the OT and resets the galaxy to Empire vs Rebels with no explanation is a person with a valid complaint.
It is a valid complaint, but people use it as a main reason why the new movies are bad. No, they’re just not what you wanted, and that’s okay.
Snoke’s rise to power isn’t important in the ST though. Most of all the information you need for the story that’s being told is there.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
It is a sequel to ROTJ. The fact that it takes place so many years later is all the more reason to set the scene. It’s a cop out to expect the audience to accept anything just because a lot of time passed. It’s not important to the story how 3PO got a red arm and cosmetic changes are expected. It is important how the Empire/FO recovered under the rule of a Sith(?) after it appeared thoroughly beaten.
I think JJ went a bit too far in the make it it’s own thing department. For first time SW and more casual fans it’s not an issue. But for bigger fans, of course we want to know what happened in the meantime. But this isn’t the Luke/Leia/Han story anymore.
For the most part, I really don’t have a problem with the sort of en media res sort of approach he took, it feels very true to Star Wars, as if once again we’ve missed some preceding episodes (which allows for mystery and surprises).
But I do think the crawl for TFA could have explained things better, and I think that film could have used at least one Death Star briefing-esque scene to set the stage for what the First Order really is.
But I truly don’t think knowing who Snoke is is all that important, based on what the story is. The whole point of this trilogy is that it’s impossible to get rid of the dark side entirely, so the fact that he’s a somewhat generic and ambiguous dark side user works pretty well. Do I think it’s possible they could have fit in a throwaway line that he’s an ancient Sith lord or whatever? Yeah, sure. But I don’t think it’d really add as much to the story as people think.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
I can agree with this. That’s why I wish this was it’s own series instead of keeping the episode numbers. There’s clearly another trilogy worth of info that we’ve missed. Maybe that info isn’t important to this current tale, but it is important to the larger story.
A person miffed that the ST undoes the victories won in the OT and resets the galaxy to Empire vs Rebels with no explanation is a person with a valid complaint.It is a valid complaint, but people use it as a main reason why the new movies are bad. No, they’re just not what you wanted, and that’s okay.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
The blue elephant in the room.
this is a defense I see often and it doesn’t work.
I disagree. You don’t need to know who Snoke is for the story to work. It doesn’t matter.
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad. This is pretty basic stuff, Opinions 101.
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.
What’s the punishment then?
I’m sure there are plenty of things they could do we aren’t even thinking about.
I feel like I’ve said this before, but I kinda really want them to redeem Kylo in some way. If he goes out a complete villain, like so many want, to me that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t like to place specific expectations on unseen movies like this, but if they did that I’d be a little disappointed. It’s antithetical to what Star Wars is about.
Star Wars is about lots of things. I hate blanket statements like “Star Wars has to be about X or it isn’t Star Wars.”
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
Being saved is different from punishment and forgiveness. I think there are people who commit evil acts who do change. Whether they stay behind bars is another matter. I know someone who refused to forgive a parent for something they did (vis a vis others) and even refused to attend the parent’s funeral. I think the child was wrong but that’s me.
I understand the difference. I just don’t know how the character’s story progresses after he turns back to the light. Either all is forgiven, or he’s punished…and if he’s punished, it’s either killing him or locking him up forever. Nothing else makes sense.
I guess in the Star Wars universe you could find something interesting to do with killing him (force ghost I guess) but that’s an odd turn. If you lock him up forever, then what?
I say we should leave him on Ahch-To.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.
What’s the punishment then?
I’m sure there are plenty of things they could do we aren’t even thinking about.
I feel like I’ve said this before, but I kinda really want them to redeem Kylo in some way. If he goes out a complete villain, like so many want, to me that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t like to place specific expectations on unseen movies like this, but if they did that I’d be a little disappointed. It’s antithetical to what Star Wars is about.
Star Wars is about lots of things. I hate blanket statements like “Star Wars has to be about X or it isn’t Star Wars.”
Star Wars is a lot of things and I agree, but at the end of the day, to me, it is always optimistic (even if all the way it isn’t). For Han and Leia’s son to be unforgivably evil forever, it doesn’t sit right with me.
[DominicCobb said:](
It is a valid complaint, but people use it as a main reason
I think JJ went a bit too far in the make it it’s own thing department. For first time SW and more casual fans it’s not an issue. But for bigger fans, of course we want to know what happened in the meantime. But this isn’t the Luke/Leia/Han story anymore.
For the most part, I really don’t have a problem with the sort of en media res sort of approach he took, it feels very true to Star Wars, as if once again we’ve missed some preceding episodes (which allows for mystery and surprises).
But I do think the crawl for TFA could have explained things better, and I think that film could have used at least one Death Star briefing-esque scene to set the stage for what the First Order really is.
But I truly don’t think knowing who Snoke is is all that important, based on what the story is. The whole point of this trilogy is that it’s impossible to get rid of the dark side entirely, so the fact that he’s a somewhat generic and ambiguous dark side user works pretty well. Do I think it’s possible they could have fit in a throwaway line that he’s an ancient Sith lord or whatever? Yeah, sure. But I don’t think it’d really add as much to the story as people think.
I appreciate what you’re saying in this Jedit to your post
The blue elephant in the room.
[DominicCobb said:](
It is a valid complaint, but people use it as a main reason
I think JJ went a bit too far in the make it it’s own thing department. For first time SW and more casual fans it’s not an issue. But for bigger fans, of course we want to know what happened in the meantime. But this isn’t the Luke/Leia/Han story anymore.
For the most part, I really don’t have a problem with the sort of en media res sort of approach he took, it feels very true to Star Wars, as if once again we’ve missed some preceding episodes (which allows for mystery and surprises).
But I do think the crawl for TFA could have explained things better, and I think that film could have used at least one Death Star briefing-esque scene to set the stage for what the First Order really is.
But I truly don’t think knowing who Snoke is is all that important, based on what the story is. The whole point of this trilogy is that it’s impossible to get rid of the dark side entirely, so the fact that he’s a somewhat generic and ambiguous dark side user works pretty well. Do I think it’s possible they could have fit in a throwaway line that he’s an ancient Sith lord or whatever? Yeah, sure. But I don’t think it’d really add as much to the story as people think.
I appreciate what you’re saying in this Jedit to your post
Oh yeah, I’ve been trying to double post less often, I guess sometimes that can be confusing (especially when the edit comes a bit later because it is long winded).
I just stumbled on an article that explains Luke drawing and igniting his saber with one word - instinct. Obi-wan’s first lesson come back to haunt him. Act on instinct. Well, maybe not always the best advice and it snowballs and actually causes the fall of Ben Solo to Kylo Ren and suddenly Luke is doubting what he was taught. Instinct was his friend in the OT and now it has ruined him. What Obi-wan taught him at the beginning ends of destroying his relationship with his nephew and destroying all his work. A Jedi’s instinct is to destroy evil. Obi-wan and Yoda wanted to see Vader and the Emperor die. They got their wish, but Luke didn’t kill either of them. His instinct was that there was good in Vader and he could be turned. He was right.
Everything about that tale and about the events the lead up to TFA for Luke and Kylo ring true for the Luke I grew up with. This new story really needed the old Luke, but Rey found a broken Luke and it took her leaving to wake him up. And my how he woke up. This parallel’s the OT. Bail Organa decided it was time for the Jedi to return and sent a message to Obi-wan. Obi-wan heeded his call but died before his existance could be revealed. The Rebellion needed a Jedi and only got Luke, who wasn’t a Jedi until ROTJ. Leia called Luke but he tried to refuse, but ended up coming anyway after seeing his error. He died, but he died after a legendary fight that is echoing across the galaxy. The First Order hasn’t solidified its hold over the beheaded Republic and Luke’s actions will make it harder.
I think everyone complaining about Luke between Kylo’s fall and TLJ is missing that the old Luke came back. Even Hamill recognized that RJ went in an unusual but interesting direction and when he saw where it was going he came to think that RJ was the right one to tell this story. I think if everyone really thinks honestly about Luke (whose hero’s journey ended in ROTJ) and digs into the OT and what is contained in the 2/3 of the ST we now have, that you’ll find his actions are consistent throughout and that Luke’s status as Legend in the Star Wars universe remains intact.
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
Being saved is different from punishment and forgiveness. I think there are people who commit evil acts who do change. Whether they stay behind bars is another matter. I know someone who refused to forgive a parent for something they did (vis a vis others) and even refused to attend the parent’s funeral. I think the child was wrong but that’s me.
I understand the difference. I just don’t know how the character’s story progresses after he turns back to the light. Either all is forgiven, or he’s punished…and if he’s punished, it’s either killing him or locking him up forever. Nothing else makes sense.
I guess in the Star Wars universe you could find something interesting to do with killing him (force ghost I guess) but that’s an odd turn. If you lock him up forever, then what?
I say we should leave him on Ahch-To.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
But imagine the humor!
Angry Mob (wielding laser torches and vibro-pitchforks): Tell us where Vader is!
Leia (finally giving in): Ahch-To. He’s on Ahch-to.
Angry Mob: Bless you. Now tell us where he is!
Leia: He’s on Ahch-To!
Angry Mob: Gesundheit! We’ll be back after you see a doctor, you might be contagious.
The blue elephant in the room.
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
In the Infinities comics, Vader gets a new suit and apparently joins the Rebellion.
I find this interesting, as I had the crazy idea of a Trek Mirror Mirror type Universe when I was a kid, where the Empire was the good guys, and Vader wore white.
Where were you in '77?
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And to those comparing TLJ with TESB: I find it easier to relate to someone that has a lack of self trust and was lied to and has his world destroyed, than someone whose failure was almost murdering his family. I actually think it’s pretty hard to relate to the latter.
Luke is far more relatable in TLJ than ROTJ in my opinion. Obviously once you get into specifics it falls apart in any of the films. But the Luke of TLJ is one that had a moment of weakness years ago and has regretted it ever since. The fact that he was tempted to kill his nephew doesn’t really make him un-relatable when you factor in the things that brought him there that have no analogues to anyone’s life (force visions, the dark side, etc.). It’s the broad strokes that are important.
Yeah but you’d be watching RotJ right after TESB, where Luke fails every single step of the way. So you’re already rooting for him. Then you see how confident he is and finally for the first time in 2 movies, something he does works out: he rescues Han and his friends.
Then, in the Death Star, Luke ultimately fails and is about to die, after going in the noblest of quests: to redeem his father, believing in his father. He’s super relatable there.
TLJ definitely shows a broken Luke, a character that failed, but I’m not sure if it works completely for me because I don’t really believe in his failure. I don’t think Luke would get to that point, I don’t think Luke would act like that. I don’t buy his reasons.
For it to work for me, they could’ve explored it more, maybe an entire exposition scene like Ben’s Hut in ANH. Granted, there were 3 flashbacks, but I think that it’s also a product of moviemaking nowadays - movies are much faster than they were in 1977, so a dialogue heavy exposition scene like Ben’s Hut wouldn’t fit with the movie.
But that’s it.
If you watch all movies as standalones, TLJ Luke is just as relatable as TESB Luke or ANH Luke, and they’re a lot more relatable than RotJ Luke. But it’s a saga, and I have my interpretation of the characters and I’m emotionally attached to them at this point, so the way it was done, I don’t really believe that Luke would even be at Kylo Ren’s Hut to confront him. I didn’t buy it.
I must clarify something though: I actually really like the movie as a movie and, to an extent, as a Star Wars movie. I’ve done nothing but criticized it I think, but it’s because I think its flaws are so deep they have to be pointed out and discussed. But after first viewing it was a 6.5/10, then 7.5/10, and currently a 7/10. That’s not bad at all. I’d still watch R1, RotS, AotC and the OT over it, but it’s because I love those movies so so much. I don’t like Rey or Rose and have problems with some aspects of how Luke was handled, but besides that, I love most of the movie. It has some extremely high highs. I don’t think the lowest lows are as low as the highest highs are high, but I think the lows are deeply entrenched in the movie.
I HOPE SOMETHING MADE SENSE.
SilverWook said:
I find this interesting, as I had the crazy idea of a Trek Mirror Mirror type Universe when I was a kid, where the Empire was the good guys, and Vader wore white.
Yikes. Luke is pretty baked there.
Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.
For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.
I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.
It’s like the reason people want to know who Snoke is. It’s not because Snoke must be so important in his own right. We want to know how the galaxy-wide celebrations (is that heretical to say here?) at the end of ROTJ gave way to…a new Empire(?) with limitless resources. We assume it’s because of Snoke. And so we want to know how it happened.
Who was the Emperor? How did the Empire get how it was in the OT? The OT didn’t answer these questions and people aren’t complaining about that now.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare those two situations because there were no previously established realities for the situation in the galaxy to challenge. The way it went with TFA is as if TPM was the last Star Wars movie everyone saw and then they make ANH. People would go “wtf? what happened to the republic? to the separatists? what’s this empire?”
We had a established world: the empire has fallen, republic established. TFA tried to push the ANH situation down our throats but the world building wasn’t good enough - they didn’t give us any reasons or didn’t explain what is the first order or what was the republic or how we went from RotJ to the same ANH scenario. That’s what the movie doesn’t explain. It’s not about giving Snoke’s backstory I don’t think (even though that would be interesting once you realise he’s a sith and by the end of RotJ the sith were extinct), but it’s about what happened to the galaxy to get to the point where it was in TFA.
edit: Sorry, this was a really hard post to understand, sorry if it made no sense, it was badly written and not well thought out.
Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.
Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.
But that’s a good assumption to make, based on the celebratory atmosphere on multiple planets, including the capitol world.
That there’s a new big bad Force wielder, however, should have been established with the crawl.
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