Implied starting date of the Empire from OT dialogue — Page 4

ZkinandBonez said:

Also I couldn't find any mention of Vader's Castle. Does it have a specific name? I found an entry on the Emperor Citadel, but no castle with Vader's name attached. The again I might have overlook something under a different name.

 In the EU it's called Bast Castle I believe.

Huh, so ROTJ could be edited to make continuity between the rewrites and the OT, hmm... (considering some crazy changes for my PT edit and whether or not I'll edit ROTJ)

Good luck with that, but remember to credit "Yoda's dialogue's edit" as my original idea :D

I was thinking of just making them siblings, but not necessarily twins. So much of that could be preserved, the problem is just making sure that these changes won't intervene with the upcoming ST

fishmanlee said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Also I couldn't find any mention of Vader's Castle. Does it have a specific name? I found an entry on the Emperor Citadel, but no castle with Vader's name attached. The again I might have overlook something under a different name.

 In the EU it's called Bast Castle I believe.

I looked it up and I couldn't even find an entry on the planet.

I did however look up Boba Fett just for fun to see what his pre-PT entry said, and apart from the basic stuff that we already know from the movies it said;
"He wears Mandalore battle armor-the same used by a group of evil warriors who were defeated by the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars-but his connection to the Mandalore warriors remains a mystery."
Not much to go on, but it's a little bit less vague than other descriptions, which from what I remember only hint at an involvement in the wars without specifying on what side they were (or maybe you already knew that?)

Also, why all this ROTJ hate?
Well, hate might be too strong a word to use, but do people really have that many issues with it? As far as retconning go, it's ESB who's the real sinner, ROTJ was more or less just following the newly established canon, mostly just tweaking it here and there. Also it's not like the OT had any particularly consistent continuity during it's production anyway. Heck, just reading some of the early drafts for ANH proves that Lucas never had any grand plan for any of it. Also a lot of the story of ROTJ was reused from one of the early ANH drafts. Even the Ewoks can be traced back to a forest moon/Wookiee subplot from one of the early ANH drafts.  

I kind of knew something about Fett, but I think his background draws from the EU, so I'll have to pass :D

Well, no one actually hates ROTJ, but most of the people I know (including myself) think it's an "half-assed" movie :D It looks 50% Star Wars (with Luke's journey to the Emperor) and 50% something else (with childish or lifeless characters, a good amount of bad special effects and an odd pacing), and when it comes to retcons, ROTJ is the one starting the "shrinking galaxy" trend, with Leia being Luke's sister which, compared to Vader's revelation which draws a parallel within the protagonist and TESB's main villain, is just here to fix a plot hole and has no actual impact on the story (aside for Vader's threat to make her into a dark jedi).

Speaking of ANH's drafts, it's common for stories to have multiple versions until a final polished one is written. The reason it took so long for ANH, is that it initially drew from a lot of sources (sci-fi novels, contemporary society and  Lucas's own experience) which made the script very confusing, so it had to be streamlined more and more until it became what we know today.

John Doom said:

I kind of knew something about Fett, but I think his background draws from the EU, so I'll have to pass :D

Well, no one actually hates ROTJ, but most of the people I know (including myself) think it's an "half-assed" movie :D Il looks 50% Star Wars (with Luke's journey and ending with the Emperor) and 50% something else (childish or lifeless characters, a good amount of bad special effects and an odd pacing), and when it comes to retcons, ROTJ is the one starting the "shrinking galaxy"'s trend with Leia being Luke's sister which, compared to Vader's revelation which draws a parallel within the protagonist and TESB's main villain, is just here to fix a plot hole and has no actual impact on the story (aside for Vader's threat to make her into a dark jedi).

Speaking of ANH's drafts, it's common for stories to have multiple versions until a final polished one is written. The reason it took so long for ANH, is that it initially drew from a lot of sources (sci-fi novels, contemporary society and  Lucas's own experience) which made the script very confusing, so it had to be streamlined more and more until it become what we know today.

Yeah, I see what you mean. 
As for the whole childish thing though, SW is after all as much for children, technically more, than it is for adults. Ewoks may be silly, but I always felt like they fitted into the overall story arc really well. Like I said a similar, and much sillier I might add, plot-point was in one of the ANH drafts. Sure I would have preferred Wookiees, or at least something a little less cutesy with the intent of selling toys. But all in all having the Empirical war machine defeat by someone technologically primitive kind of fits with the motifs of the trilogy. It's kind of silly, so it definitely could have been done better, but the events themselves aren't inappropriate. The Rebels have always been associate with something more natural, not just in their more organic coloured outfits but also the planets that they hide out on; such as Yavin IV and Hoth. Even the Rebel ships, especially the Calamari cruisers have a rounded organic feel to them. Plus they're a diverse group. Contrast all of this to the angular star destroyers filled with only white males all dressed in the same drab grey uniforms. The Empire is focused on death machines, e.g. the Death Star, and the Rebels fight more through cunning than through pure power. Even ANH had these motifs; Vader being "more machine than man, twisted and evil," a single person defeating the Empire (at least until they decided to make a sequel), Yavin IV in contrast to the Death Star, etc.  
All in all the Empire, or rather a small squadron and by effect the Death Star II, being defeated on a forest planet by a few rebels and a primitive society kind of makes contextually sense. It's silly, but so is a farm boy saving the day with a single torpedo. 
Also the ANH rough draft literally had a bunch of Wookiees being taught how to pilot fighters within a single day and destroying the Death Star.
Now that's silly!
Maybe I'm over-analyzing a bit, but my main point is that it wasn't exactly something which Lucas just threw in at the last minute to cash in on it. It was there from the very beginning and there is a reason behind the idea. The problem isn't so much the idea, but rather how it was handled.

Anyway, I get what you're saying, but all this about a fan edit of ROTJ sounds a bit melodramatic to me. 

As for the whole childish thing though, SW is after all as much for children, technically more, than it is for adults.

Except I didn't care about that stuff when I was a child, and I was only interested in Luke's journey to the "creepy" Emperor :D

All in all the Empire, or rather a small squadron and by effect the Death Star II, being defeated on a forest planet by a few rebels and a primitive society kind of makes contextually sense. It's silly, but so is a farm boy saving the day with a single torpedo.

I'm not sure it's the same: even before becoming the "only hope" in TESB, Luke was strong in the Force (as Vader admitted himself), not an ordinary farm boy.

But all in all having the Empirical war machine defeat by someone technologically primitive kind of fits with the motifs of the trilogy.

I disagree. I know that's what Lucas said, but to me, it doesn't fit at all: why did a lot of people want a great epic final battle between the Rebels and the Empire? So to close the Rebellion's story-arc started with ANH. That's the actual motif of the whole trilogy: fighting to break free from the oppression. What we got instead was a bunch of floating Rebel starships standing-by for almost an hour until the ending scene. It was very disappointing for some.

Also the ANH rough draft literally had a bunch of Wookiees being taught how to pilot fighters within a single day and destroying the Death Star.
Now that's silly!

I can't find it in your link, but I'm glad it didn't make it into ANH :D

John Doom said:

As for the whole childish thing though, SW is after all as much for children, technically more, than it is for adults.

Except I didn't care about that stuff when I was a child, and I was only interested in Luke's journey to the "creepy" Emperor :D

That I definitively agree on, it's very distracting from the main story of ROTJ. It's too strong a contrast to the main story. ESB had a parallel conflict, but it was such a strong juxtaposition. It felt more related, at least as far as mood and atmosphere went. Ewoks intercut with the Emperor is kind of weird. 
I'm not saying it's great, I'm just saying it's not a bad idea. It's just as you put it, kind of half-assed and oddly paced.

I actually watched all of the Emperor scenes yesterday, and skipped the Ewok scenes. It was amazing how different and more impactful it all suddenly felt. Judging by some of the concept art they were originally going for some much darker scenes. I think this is why I personally liked Dark Empire. It may have been a tad too dark, but at least it kept the focus in the right place.

All in all the Empire,or rather a small squadron and by effect the Death Star II, being defeated on a forest planet by a few rebels and a primitive society kind of makes contextually sense. It's silly, but so is a farm boy saving the day with a single torpedo.

I'm not sure it's the same: even before becoming the "only hope" in TESB, Luke was strong in the Force (as Vader admitted himself), not an ordinary farm boy.

Well, what is the Force really? Isn't it supposed to be nature? At least that's what Obi-Wan and Yoda keep hinting at. There's a reason why Obi-Wan is dressed as an ascetic and lives on a desert planet. Likewise Yoda lives in a hovel on a swamp planet. The Jedi/The Force/ The Rebels are heavily related to themes of nature, while the Dark side/The Empire is related to the artificial, mechanical, evil, etc. 
I think the PT have made the Force into too much of a privileged superpower in the lore. Yes, technically Luke was strong with the force, but he was also supposed to be the relateable commoner who learns to be something special. The Force is more than just a plot point, it's a concept.
Lore is important, but the philosophy and emotional impact of a film is much more important to the general audience. 

Also the ANH rough draft literally had a bunch of Wookiees being taught how to pilot fighters within a single day and destroying the Death Star. 
Now that's silly!

I can't find it in your link, but I'm glad it didn't make it into ANH :D

 Scroll down to the last paragraph and you'll see it. 

(It was illustrated in a Dark Horse Comics adaptation called "The Star Wars" and the image of a bunch of early Ralph McCuarrie concept art Wookies piloting a bunch of Y-Wings in an attack run on the Death Star is pretty absurd.

darklordoftech said:

Interestingly, the ANH shooting script calls Vader the "right hand of the Emperor" but also calls him Tarkin's "powerful henchman."

Vader's role in the Empire seems to have shifted somewhat in between ANH and ESB. In the early drafts the name Vader actually referred to the Tarkin role (commander of the Death Star and not a sith) and a "Sith Knight" called Valorum played Vader's part, so his role is probably kind of hard to pinpoint in the pre-ESB canon of ANH. 
The current canon(s) seems to suggest that he takes orders from Tarkin mostly just because the Death Star is his battlestation, whereas Vader generally has a much bigger role in the Empire. 
I personally have always seen Vader as a sort of Shogun figure, which makes sense considering his outfit, especially the helmet, is based of a Shogun's armour. In ESB and ROTJ he seems to be able to command entire fleets at his own whims, and he only answers to the Emperor, e.g. he's a type of Shogun.
However, ANH, and even some EU material seem to suggest that he's more of an "errand boy" for the Emperor, and that although he has the power to do pretty much as he pleases, he has little over-all influence over the Empire's military campaigns.

I'm sure there's some source-book from the 80's or something that explains the whole hierarchy of the Empire. There's COMPNOR of course, but that more bureaucratic than militant.

EDIT: There is an Imperial Sourcebook published in 1989. This should have some pretty detailed info about who's what in the Empire and how it's all run.
The guy who wrote the 1994 edition of AGTOSWU apparently contributed to this book as well. However, it probably doesn't have much more backstory than what we've already got, but it's probably an interesting read.

darklordoftech said:

ZkinandBonez said: In the early drafts the name Vader actually referred to the Tarkin role (commander of the Death Star and not a sith) and a "Sith Knight" called Valorum played Vader's part, so his role is probably kind of hard to pinpoint in the pre-ESB canon of ANH. 

In the rough/first draft, Tarkin is Crispin Hoedaack, Vader is a general, and Valorum is a Sith Knight. The second draft combined Vader and Valorum.

 Right, I'd forgotten about Hoedaack. Well, they both have very similar positions anyway, and it's regardless very interesting to see that the name Vader wasn't always used for the Sith antagonist.

Well I managed to find the sourcebook online here; http://www.scribd.com/doc/19470902/d6-Star-Wars-2e-Imperial-Source-Book#scribd

I didn't tell anything new about the backstory of the Empire, as a matter of fact it was almost taken word for word from the AGTTSWU.

But here are some interesting things I've found so far anyway:
(I have by no means read the whole thing, rather I have just skimmed through it looking for something that may seem relevant.)

"The Emperor is a small man, clothed in robes intentionally reminiscent of harmless ascetics on scores of worlds." - p. 12.
I find this kind of interesting as it exclude the idea of robes being specifically 'Jedi uniforms," but it does however suggest why someone like Yoda and Obi-Wan might wear them. 

The book also has an entry on an Elite Armor Unit called; Hell's Hammers. The entry starts with; 
"Formed during the closing stages of the Clone Wars from armor units of the Old Republic, Hell's Hammers have served the Empire in a large number of actions in the Outer Rim Territories. Used initially to crush opposition to the New Order, Hell's Hammers are now engaged in eradicating Rebel outposts, subjugating planets with Rebel sympathies, and in forcibly bringing reluctant worlds into the Empire." - p. 131.
This isn't much to go on, but it does kind of suggest as pointed out before that the New Order seems to have existed as a political party within the Old Republic for some years prior to the formation of the Empire. Here it might even seem that the New Order was involved in the Clone Wars, possibly even on the same side as the Jedi's at this point.

I was also really surprised to find that there was no entry on Darth Vader. He's barely even mentioned.
This is the only bit I could find that was specifically about him and his role in the Empire;
"The recent setback at the Battle of Yavin has resulted in a few changes to Imperial doctrine. As you are aware,we have lost both the Death Star and its commander, Grand Moff Tarkin. But the doctrine of fear has not been rescinded because of this minor victory for the insignifi-cant rebellion. Instead, the doctrine of fear must be broadened and upgraded. It is time to let that fear spread, time for the Empire to strike back at its enemies and destroy them once and for all. That is why the Emperor has placed his servant, Lord Darth Vader, in command of a special Imperial fleet. This fleet, led by Lord Vader's new Super-class Star Destroyer Executor, has been charged with the mission to hunt down the rebel command base and those rebels that escaped us at Yavin. You are to bow to Lord Vader's wishes as though they were the Emperor's own, extending him every possible assistance he may require in the completion of his task. Soon, nothing will remain to threaten the Emperor's rule." - p. 44.
So I guess Vader was underneath Tarkin in rank during the events of ANH after all. Makes me wonder what he was in the 18 or so years between the formation of the Empire and ANH. Maybe he was more of a henchman as the ANH script suggested, doing whatever dirty work the Emperor needed to be done. It kind of makes sense too. In ANH he's chasing Leia, who at this point is a known as a Rebel leader. He's not leading armies, he's lookin for the Death Star plans. It seems that he's more of a Special Forces commander.  He even goes out to fight the Rebel fighters when they attack the Death Star. The book suggests that he didn't gain his role as a General until after the Battle of Yavin.

darklordoftech said:

Two of my headcanons about Vader:

1. People who don't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord think that Vader is a bounty hunter hired by Tarkin. As a result, Palpatine isn't blamed for Vader's actions.

2. Vader rarely, if ever, appears in Imperial propaganda and never gives speeches on Holonet. The Tarkin novel implies that Tarkin gives the majority of the Empire's speeches.

I think a combination of the two might be the situation. However since Vader in the post-Battle of Yavin is given full control of the military, and people are commanded to treat his orders as if they were the Emperor's, it seems kind of weird to me that no one really knows who he is. He is after all "Lord Vader", and Leia in ANH seems to to be well aware of who he is. So I'm not too sure that he is so much of a scapegoat for the Emperor, but I agree that he's probably not a political figure. He's probably there to scare those who are involved in politics in check, as well as being a sort of problem solver when something threatens the Empire/Emperor.
Once the Senate becomes dissolved in ANH and the Rebel's finally prove themselves to be an actual threat to the Empire, Darth Vader get's ranked up in the military and as usual, except with much more power this time, is sent to solve a problem.
Although Vader probably never holds any speeches, he's probably a really good piece of propaganda in of himself; this mystery man that will hunt you down if you're disobedient. He's clearly feared by the Rebels, but the Imperial General's doesn't seem to take him too serious in ANH, that is of course until he proves his power. Him choking a general also proves that he, despite having little official power, can pretty much do as he pleases. And it seems likely, as you suggested, that no one knows that Palpatine is a Sith/Darksider, hence Tarkin's statement "You my friend is all that's left of their religion."
Vader may not be a general, but he seems to be Palpatine's greatest symbol/weapon of fear in his Empire.
(Maybe that's why he doesn't seem to like the Death Star, he's afraid it'll replace him.) 

(PS. You mentioned "the Tarkin novel," isn't that part of the recent Disney canon?)  

darklordoftech said:

Going only by Star Wars, do we know whether whether Owen was Annikin's brother, Beru was Annikin's sister, or if Lars was the maiden name of Luke's mother? Was Owen actually intended to be Obi-Wan's brother in 1983 like Obi-Wan says he is in the ROTJ screenplay and novelization or did Lucas drop that idea by the time ROTJ was released? Would Owen being Obi-Wan's brother preclude Beru from being Anakin's sister or Luke's mother's sister?

Also, I'd love to read the first edition of A Guide to the Star Wars Universe because it wouldn't be polluted by the EU.

Well, all of the info I've provided so far (except for some on Mon Mothma) is from Lucasfilm, and not the EU. Most of the entries are divided into two sections; the Lucasfilm section (including the films, novelizations, and the radio dramas) and a Licensed SW section including all EU elements of a character, place, etc.

(Of course this doesn't help us figure out when stuff was retconned by Lucas in between the making of the three films. The book does for example specify that Owen is Obi-Wan's brother because that was the official Lucasfilm canon at the time since it made it into the novelization.)

Although it's not much to go on, this interview with James Kahn (the writer of the ROTJ novelization) does at least confirm that Obi-Wan's extended talk to Luke on Dagobah was based of a conversation with Lucas and not of his own making. So it seems that we can take the Lucasfilm sections of the AGTTSWU serious as a pre-PT George Lucas canon.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2015/10/swnn-interview-james-kahn-author-of-return-of-the-jedi-novelization.html

(This of course still implies a lot of retconning in between the films, but at least we can identify what Lucas intended back in 1983.)

Nice find, thanks!

About that duel... meh. Is it worth adding it to the timeline? I'm fine with Obi-wan and Anakin meeting in ANH for the first time after he left his training. What do you think?

John Doom said:

Nice find, thanks!

About that duel... meh. Is it worth adding it to the timeline? I'm fine with Obi-wan and Anakin meeting in ANH for the first time after he left his training. What do you think?

Well, isn't the whole duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader one of the most important moment in SW lore? It is after all the event that made Anakin into Vader. Both lore-wise and symbolically this transformation is a really important moment in SW. 
The ROTS version may have been an over-the-top CGI mess, but the moment in of itself is pretty interesting and important to the characters. Had it been handled properly it could have been one of the best SW scenes ever made. 

The Emperor has always been a very devilish character and it makes sense that Anakin's final transformation should be a flaming baptism so to speak in a hellish setting.
His "more machine than man, twisted and evil" description is also very important to define his role as Darth Vader. That this happened while fighting an old friend while trying to turn him back to good just makes the whole image so much more potent.
I think it's important to try to not be affected by the PT interpretation while considering these ideas. They all had great potential, just a terrible execution in the end.