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Help: looking for... 1997 SE TB Digital Broadcasts — Page 6

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Originally posted by: Sluggo
3. Are the making of interviews that were on the VHS before the films available in widescreen? (I only ever had the P&S VHS)

No the interviews are pan and scan on the widescreen tapes as well.


thanks for letting me know, in that case I might do a capture from my VHS set (which are probably in a box somewhere) and include them as a special feature, providing it doesn't compramise the disc space too much. Although now I think about it I'm sure one of the discs i have round here has them on it but probably not in PAL.


Originally posted by: adywan
I have the 5.1 track from the laserdiscs but i haven't synced them to the 2004 ntsc dvd. it is still in 3 separate parts in uncompressed wav format but they are too big to post on rapidshare. the first 2 are about 1.5gb each and the 3rd part is 800mb. I was thinking about syncing it up to the dvds when i get a bit more time and creating a AC3 5.1 track that can be easily added to the SE


Hi Ady, have you got the 5.1 for all 3 films or just ANH? either way would you mind putting them on a DVD (or 3) and sticking them in the post? (I'm in the UK) even if it's just the for the one film it would save Karyudo some time.

Cheers
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Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
but probably not in PAL.
Are you looking for PAL? I don't think you'll find any PAL laserdisc with AC3 on it.

I've got a trilogy of AC3 files which might be worthy of a closer inspection.
They're 384kbps, which doesn't prove anything, but IIRC that's the native rate for LD format which is a good sign at least.
OTOH they're 48kHz -- was native LD AC3 also 44.1 like PCM?
Check your PM.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
but probably not in PAL. Are you looking for PAL? I don't think you'll find any PAL laserdisc with AC3 on it.


I know I won't find the 5.1 at PAL speed, but I'm going to put everything together as PAL and then convert to NTSC.

Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
I've got a trilogy of AC3 files which might be worthy of a closer inspection.
They're 384kbps, which doesn't prove anything, but IIRC that's the native rate for LD format which is a good sign at least.
OTOH they're 48kHz -- was native LD AC3 also 44.1 like PCM?
Check your PM.


Replied by PM.
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Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
Just to let everyone know I have started to put together a '97 SE superset'[....]

so rather than just re-author the TB set I though I would combine the best elements of the TB set and the GKAR set (which ripped without any problems) and make a best possible version.


I for one am thrilled you are doing this. The 97 SE is much better than 2004 because of its colors (as originally filmed) and its unmutilated audio mix.

So glad you're doing this

TM

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Where're those promised screenshots?
Again, so glad someone's gonna do this.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Add me to the chorus of people excited about this.

I assume that it will be anamorphic (and hopefully a DVD-9 NTSC version will be made available)
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Originally posted by: starwarsfan8376
Add me to the chorus of people excited about this.

I assume that it will be anamorphic (and hopefully a DVD-9 NTSC version will be made available)


Deffinitely anamporphic but the sources are both DVD-5 so there would be little to no benefit in doing a DVD-9, but NTSC is planned.
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Sweet... And totally understand the reasons for not doing a DVD-9

Looking forward to tracking your progress
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Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
but probably not in PAL.
Are you looking for PAL? I don't think you'll find any PAL laserdisc with AC3 on it.


I know I won't find the 5.1 at PAL speed, but I'm going to put everything together as PAL and then convert to NTSC.


NTSC only? I'd like to get that PAL version before conversion, I've waited that someone would do these too, so thanks!

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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Originally posted by: LexX
Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
but probably not in PAL.
Are you looking for PAL? I don't think you'll find any PAL laserdisc with AC3 on it.


I know I won't find the 5.1 at PAL speed, but I'm going to put everything together as PAL and then convert to NTSC.


NTSC only? I'd like to get that PAL version before conversion, I've waited that someone would do these too, so thanks!


No there will be both PAL and NTSC versions, I'm in the UK so I will be watching the PAL versions.

I wasn't expecting quite so much interest in these, but I'm glad, hopefully it will live up to everyone's expectations.

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Max_Rebo: Will the NTSC version on DVD have the video down-converted to the correct NTSC DVD video standard (which is 480i resolution, I think), so that the DVD's will play on any standard U.S. NTSC DVD set-top stand alone DVD player (not a computer DVD drive) hooked up to a regular NTSC television set?

This is a great idea, to put together the best possible Star Wars SE (1997) DVD set. So this will be combination of the highest quality PAL video source, plus the 5.1 soundtrack from the U.S. Star Wars SE laserdisk set, correct?

Wouldn't it be easier for the NTSC set to just do the best possible transfer from the U.S. laserdisk set and then put that on a dual-layer DVD for maximum quality? Or is the idea that if you start with a PAL video source that is at a higher native resolution than even the NTSC DVD video specification, and then slow the video down to the correct NTSC 23.976 frames per second, that you will then be able to make an anamorphic NTSC DVD 480i video conversion from this that doesn't have any grain or other resolution problems in the picture quality?

Thanks for any info., this set sounds very exciting!

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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Originally posted by: Dunedain
Max_Rebo: Will the NTSC version on DVD have the video down-converted to the correct NTSC DVD video standard (which is 480i resolution, I think), so that the DVD's will play on any standard U.S. NTSC DVD set-top stand alone DVD player (not a computer DVD drive) hooked up to a regular NTSC television set?

Hopefully the NTSC version will conform to all the proper NTSC standards and playback fine on NTSC equipment.

Originally posted by: Dunedain

This is a great idea, to put together the best possible Star Wars SE (1997) DVD set. So this will be combination of the highest quality PAL video source, plus the 5.1 soundtrack from the U.S. Star Wars SE laserdisk set, correct?

correct.


Originally posted by: Dunedain

Wouldn't it be easier for the NTSC set to just do the best possible transfer from the U.S. laserdisk set and then put that on a dual-layer DVD for maximum quality? Or is the idea that if you start with a PAL video source that is at a higher native resolution than even the NTSC DVD video specification, and then slow the video down to the correct NTSC 23.976 frames per second, that you will then be able to make an anamorphic NTSC DVD 480i video conversion from this that doesn't have any grain or other resolution problems in the picture quality?


Yes that's the idea, the original PAL source should offer a much better picture quality than is possible from a laserdisc transfer, although it will most deffinitely have grain, and probably more than the laserdiscs do, but that's a good thing!

Originally posted by: Dunedain
Thanks for any info., this set sounds very exciting!


Not a problem.


Now for the promised screenshots and a progress update.

Here is a nice example showing the superior quality of the TB set, just look at that fur, it's much better defined:
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5387/esb2vp1.jpg


Here is an example to show what I meant above about the grain, you can (hopefully) see that the TB is more grainy, but the grain and the quality go hand in hand, and this is real film grain not noise:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2536/esb3ti9.jpg


and here is an example of one of the problems with the TB set, this is from the opening shot, as the camera pans down from the crawl the starfield just disappears:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2982/esb1xx8.jpg

The GKAR set doesn't suffer from this problem but obviously I can't use the whole shot from the GKAR as the crawl is in German, also this is the only shot of the film that isn't framed the same in the two versions so I can't simply cut from one to the other, it shouldn't be to difficult to fix I just haven't got around to it yet. All in all the TB set is pretty weak for starfields, but the GKAR set has been excessively filtered so the stars blur on pans (except for this shot) so either way the stars wont look as good as we'd like, but I'll do my best.


So far the video file comprises of only 18 frames from the GKAR (not including the credits) which fill in missing/damaged frames from the TB and only one of those frames is noticable when you watch it and will require some colour correcting.


I think once I've got ESB done ANH should come together really quickly but ROTJ is a whole different story (more on that later).

That's all for now, I'll keep you all posted on any developments.


And I'd like to end by saying AviSynth really is amazing!

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IMO, the GKar set seems to have better colors - but, the TB has greater detail. Unfortunate about the stars, I wish you luck in fooling around with that.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Max_Rebo: Thanks for the info.! I see what you mean about the video, the TB version has better detail and clarity than the GKAR version. There is perhaps the slightest hint of grain in the TB version, but as you said, it appears to be just a natural film grain, not noise, so that's fine, no problem at all. And the picture does indeed look great in the TB version, superb detail!

What is the resolution of the TB version? Do you know if the TB version video is in the same aspect ratio as the video in the U.S. Star Wars 1997 SE widescreen laserdisk set (which is 2.35 to 1, I think)?

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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OK, so uh... one question: these all have different amounts of footage, right? Some cropped in areas and others not? Would it be easy to combine them, or not worth the time?

Then again, I could be wrong about this whole thing.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Originally posted by: bkev
IMO, the GKar set seems to have better colors - but, the TB has greater detail. Unfortunate about the stars, I wish you luck in fooling around with that.

I'm not sure I posted the best shots for colours as generally the TB has better colours, the GKAR is less saturated and a bit over bright.

Originally posted by: Dunedain
Max_Rebo: Thanks for the info.! I see what you mean about the video, the TB version has better detail and clarity than the GKAR version. There is perhaps the slightest hint of grain in the TB version, but as you said, it appears to be just a natural film grain, not noise, so that's fine, no problem at all. And the picture does indeed look great in the TB version, superb detail!

Here's a better example showing the difference in the grain:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3743/esb4oo5.jpg


Originally posted by: Dunedain
What is the resolution of the TB version? Do you know if the TB version video is in the same aspect ratio as the video in the U.S. Star Wars 1997 SE widescreen laserdisk set (which is 2.35 to 1, I think)?


the actual image resolution of both the TB and the GKAR is 704x408, they are anamorphic but the bars aren't the right width so they appear squashed vertically, but I'm pretty sure the actual aspect ratio is 2.35:1 (or close to it), I have yet to check but I'll let you know when I do.

Originally posted by: bkev
OK, so uh... one question: these all have different amounts of footage, right? Some cropped in areas and others not? Would it be easy to combine them, or not worth the time?

Then again, I could be wrong about this whole thing.


THE GKAR and TB are framed/cropped the same (except in the first shot) and they should have the same footage it's just that the TB dropped a few frames when it was captured. So it is very esasy to combine the TB and GKAR, but it wouldn't be worth using laserdisc material if that's what you mean.
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I want to register my enthusiasm for this project. Love it or hate it, we really do need the best possible preservation of the SE for history's sake at the very least. So far nobody's put much effort into making it happen, but I think we're finally on the right track here.

Best of luck!

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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Max_Rebo: You mean the image itself (not counting the black bars) in the TB version is squashed vertically? Meaning that Leia in that screen shot you posted is made to look shorter in the TB version than she looks in the U.S. SE widescreen laserdisk set in that scene? If that's the case, there's no way to correct for that, as the source image itself has already been squashed.

Is it noticeable, or is the squashing effect so tiny that even if you were watching the TB version and the U.S. SE widescreen laserdisk side-by-side on different televisions that you couldn't see the difference? Thanks for any info.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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Originally posted by: Dunedain
Max_Rebo: You mean the image itself (not counting the black bars) in the TB version is squashed vertically? Meaning that Leia in that screen shot you posted is made to look shorter in the TB version than she looks in the U.S. SE widescreen laserdisk set in that scene? If that's the case, there's no way to correct for that, as the source image itself has already been squashed.

Is it noticeable, or is the squashing effect so tiny that even if you were watching the TB version and the U.S. SE widescreen laserdisk side-by-side on different televisions that you couldn't see the difference? Thanks for any info.


Yes everything appears squashed vertically and it is noticeable, but it is very easy to correct by just stretching the image a little vertically and/or adding a small amount of pillar boxing in the over-scan area, trust me everything will look right at the end, this was one of the first things I did and would need to be done for the PAL to NTSC conversion anyway.

my intention is to make sure that the aspect ratio matches the official DVD exactly so that it is easier for people to use in editing.

Have faith.
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Max_Rebo: Yeah, I suppose the image could be stretched the precise amount needed to correct the degree to which the PAL image is squashed, so that it exactly matches the correct 2.35:1 aspect ratio of Star Wars. But would stretching the image to correct the squashing cause it's own image artifacts, or does the video look perfect (as if the image had never been squashed or stretched at all) just like the 2004 DVD after the stretching correction is applied? You have my confidence that it can be pulled off.

By the way, if you want any info. on how to handle putting the few frames you might need from the GKAR version into the TB version, you might want to ask the guys from the Star Wars X0 Project, they had to do the same thing with the U.S. Definitive Collection laserdisk set. They might be able to help with how to make the colors and such match up perfectly between the two sources, and maybe other stuff, too.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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That's some bad MPEG artefacting in the GKAR shot above.

Have you investigated the quality of the Flunk version? It was apparently encoded direct from the digi-beta rather than a captured DVB source - potentially the best version yet - but unfortunately from the shots I've seen the image was corrupted in several locations. Still, it might be possible to replace the corrupted parts with video from the TB release.

Also, can I suggest starting a new thread for this discussion - titled "Max_Rebo's definitive '97 SE preservation superset" or something similar - rather than tack it on to the thread about the TB version.

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From its .NFO file, Flunk wasn't a straight transfer. It had "its colors and contrast imporved." [sic]
It's possible those imporvments might need some restoration. Proceed with caution....

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Originally posted by: Dunedain
Max_Rebo: Yeah, I suppose the image could be stretched the precise amount needed to correct the degree to which the PAL image is squashed, so that it exactly matches the correct 2.35:1 aspect ratio of Star Wars. But would stretching the image to correct the squashing cause it's own image artifacts, or does the video look perfect (as if the image had never been squashed or stretched at all) just like the 2004 DVD after the stretching correction is applied? You have my confidence that it can be pulled off.

By the way, if you want any info. on how to handle putting the few frames you might need from the GKAR version into the TB version, you might want to ask the guys from the Star Wars X0 Project, they had to do the same thing with the U.S. Definitive Collection laserdisk set. They might be able to help with how to make the colors and such match up perfectly between the two sources, and maybe other stuff, too.

I don't think it will introduce any additional artifacts, it will be a bit like people making anamorphic versions of the GOUT, it should look perfect afterwards.

Originally posted by: Moth3r
That's some bad MPEG artefacting in the GKAR shot above.

Have you investigated the quality of the Flunk version? It was apparently encoded direct from the digi-beta rather than a captured DVB source - potentially the best version yet - but unfortunately from the shots I've seen the image was corrupted in several locations. Still, it might be possible to replace the corrupted parts with video from the TB release.

Also, can I suggest starting a new thread for this discussion - titled "Max_Rebo's definitive '97 SE preservation superset" or something similar - rather than tack it on to the thread about the TB version.


yeah the GKAR is so much worse than I thought it would be but hopefully none of that will be noticeable in the end.

I believe the flunk was only for ANH so I hope to look at it before I start on that one as from what I've heard where it's good it's really good but where it's bad it's really bad.

suggestion taken new thread is now here: Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation

Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
From its .NFO file, Flunk wasn't a straight transfer. It had "its colors and contrast imporved." [sic]
It's possible those imporvments might need some restoration. Proceed with caution....


advice noted, and I have sent you a PM.


PLEASE NOTE: Further discussion of Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' should take place here, this thread should be used for discussion of the TB set.

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oops, wrong thread

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r