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General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread — Page 451

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RogueLeader said:

What else about the first third of the movie did you feel made it fair better than what you remembered?

I’m not sure other than it didn’t suck as much as I expected it to based on my memories of the film. But I think it’s because the last two thirds (especially the third act) leave such an awful, putrid taste in my mouth that it spoils the whole experience and overpowers any other thoughts or memories I had of the movie. I basically was thinking, “hey, this isn’t as bad as I remember. It’s more or less on par with TPM.” But then the rest of the movie happened…

RogueLeader said:

Do you not like that Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens, or that he told Padme he did and didn’t seem to register that big red flag?

Padme’s reaction (or, really, complete lack thereof) is the problem. “Hey, I just flew off the handle and murdered a bunch of women and children in a blind rage.” “Oh you poor thing, let me comfort you and empathize with your psychopathy.” Interestingly, I found Hayden’s acting during his confession to be quite good. He really comes across as genuine in his anger and it’s quite terrifying.

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, the swordplay definitely feels like a downgrade compared to TPM, not only with the choreography but the location felt less interesting as well. I think it would’ve been an interesting contrast if they had shot and blocked the choreography more akin to the fight scenes in Ridley Scott’s The Duelists. It would have shown how Dooku was a more dangerous opponent than the aggressive Maul because if you made one mistake he would exploit it and kill you. It would have made the duel tense in a different way, and suited Christopher Lee’s capabilities as an actor. I almost feel like they may have been going for this, but it doesn’t feel like it was shot or cut with that in mind.

I’ve not seen The Duelists (but thanks for keying me in, it’s now on my list!) but yes, a more refined, precise, and icily ominous style would’ve suited Christopher Lee far better than the rave party spinning glow stick fights he was saddled with.

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Dooku was extremely under-utilised imo. Christopher Lee kinda nailed the slightly campy villainy that really works in the prequel setting (a la Ep III Palpi). The delivery of “surely you can do better!” gets me every time.

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Revenge of the Sith - eh. It’s kinda like TPM to me in that I’m mostly indifferent to it. There’s bits I like alright, there’s bits that I think are pretty atrocious, and then there’s huge segments that I find either quite boring or just sloppy. Thankfully it doesn’t fill me with the sense of frustrated anger and disgust that the last third of AOTC does.

I was surprised to admit that I didn’t hate Anakin’s turn to the dark side this time. Don’t get me wrong, his primary motivation (stopping death) is still lame and the actual turn happens too quickly to be convincing, but I more clearly saw how all the building blocks were there throughout the trilogy leading up to this point and it did actually mostly make sense. And I even give Hayden some real credit. I think had they leaned harder into his trust issues with the Jedi, his infatuation with his own growing powers, his desire to “end the destructive conflict” by any means necessary, and his willingness to break Jedi oathes for his own satisfaction (marrying Padme) and gotten better writers to handle it all and a better dramatic director, this could’ve really worked. And I think Hayden could have pulled it off.

I have to say, this movie looked like absolute garbage. The cgi is far too often just atrocious and the movie looks like a cartoon or video game. The massive amounts of painfully obvious green screen composites really hurt it too.

The sword choreography is still pretty terrible but it’s at least a bit better than AOTC. The actual choreography for the big fight between Anakin and Obi-wan is pretty bad but I will say that I genuinely liked the ferocity, energy, and passion of the fight, even if the actual techniques/moves looked fake. The anger, brutality, and speed in the fight felt appropriate and real for a fight between two close “brothers” who’ve had a devastating, relationship-ending disagreement. The set pieces in the fight are also mostly pretty awesome until they just get too outlandish to suspend disbelief.

Unfortunately the fight is undermined by the preposterous end. The high ground thing is bad enough, but its what happens next that really kinda kills it. Obiwan has dismembered Anakin and won the fight. He calls him his brother and says how much he loved Anakin. Then he flipping sits there and watches him burn and then just walks away while his best friend writhes in agony! It’s so wrong! Anyone with half a heart would’ve realized the fight and argument were over and less important than helping your friend at that point, no matter how much you disagreed with each other! I feel like this portion should been handled differently. Something like, their fight and emotions are reaching a peak when Obi-wan gains an advantage and cuts Anakin’s legs off. Anakin drops his saber and falls off some massive ledge or something. Basically obi-wan thinks he’s assuredly dead, not realizing he survived the fall (and subsequently gets burned by the lava just like in the film). Obi-wan has already seen the security footage of Anakin taking the name Darth Vader, so when he hears of Darth Vader running around with the empire, that’s when he’d realize that Anakin survived. It would also make hiding Luke on Tatooine seem much less stupid on Obi-wan’s part if he thinks Anakin is dead when he makes that decision.

Overall this has been an interesting exercise. The ire and frustration I used to feel towards the prequels is mostly gone. They’re pretty crummy movies but I don’t loathe their existence like I used too. I guess time really does heal all wounds. Not that I ever cared so much that it affected me in any serious way. But I did avoid these movies for so long because they did elicit genuine feelings of anger, frustration, and disappointment. But now I’m mostly fine with TPM and ROTS. I still take exception to AOTC. It just sucks so bad and the third act with the droid factory and Yoda fight just destroy any mercy I might’ve been willing to give it.

I will say that, had George been more of the “big picture, overall story arc” guy and hired truly talented writers and directors and allowed good creative types to reign in some of his more terrible ideas (like anakin building threepio, jar jar, excessive cgi, the droid factory comedic sequence, etc.) i actually think this could’ve been a very good trilogy. The building blocks are there for a great story, but the execution just totally flounders.

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Kinda weird to think in-universe that the bad guys explicitly call their side the “dark-side.” Paradoxically they don’t believe they are evil but they’re also conceding that they are evil. It makes more sense to stick with monikers like Sith vs Jedi. Like Republicans vs Democrats, either side is going to think the other side is demonizing. Neither would logically say they are evil or morally bankrupt themselves on their side of the fence. It’s not the most attractive way to recruit others. Imagine if Vader didn’t say scary things to Luke like “dark side” and just more things to try to screw with his head such as Obi-Wan being a liar. Saying you’re evil kinda cancels out anything else you say versus just appearing like you believe you’re in the right.

The Rise of Failures

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TavorX said:

Kinda weird to think in-universe that the bad guys explicitly call their side the “dark-side.” Paradoxically they don’t believe they are evil but they’re also conceding that they are evil. It makes more sense to stick with monikers like Sith vs Jedi. Like Republicans vs Democrats, either side is going to think the other side is demonizing. Neither would logically say they are evil or morally bankrupt themselves on their side of the fence. It’s not the most attractive way to recruit others. Imagine if Vader didn’t say scary things to Luke like “dark side” and just more things to try to screw with his head such as Obi-Wan being a liar. Saying you’re evil kinda cancels out anything else you say versus just appearing like you believe you’re in the right.

Just because we in the real world often to assume “light vs dark” symbolizes “good vs evil” that doesn’t meant it applies to the SW universe. Also, I’m quite positive there would be plenty of people IRL that would have no issues what so ever with joining the “dark” side. If anything it has an edgy, or even exotic, vibe to it that would appeal to plenty of people.

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Oh for sure would agree plenty of people in SW would join the “dark” side without question for their twisted desires.
However, for someone like Luke, who is more about truth and justice, I was just saying that it wouldn’t be the smartest angle to explicitly say your side is “dark” and therefore associated with “evil.” But I do see your point too. After all, Luke does wear black in RotJ. If it were truly dark = evil, Obi-Wan and Yoda would had protested Luke to wear a lighter article of clothing. “It’s not the Jedi way!” So perhaps you’re onto something I glossed over.

The Rise of Failures

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ZkinandBonez said:

TavorX said:

Kinda weird to think in-universe that the bad guys explicitly call their side the “dark-side.” Paradoxically they don’t believe they are evil but they’re also conceding that they are evil. It makes more sense to stick with monikers like Sith vs Jedi. Like Republicans vs Democrats, either side is going to think the other side is demonizing. Neither would logically say they are evil or morally bankrupt themselves on their side of the fence. It’s not the most attractive way to recruit others. Imagine if Vader didn’t say scary things to Luke like “dark side” and just more things to try to screw with his head such as Obi-Wan being a liar. Saying you’re evil kinda cancels out anything else you say versus just appearing like you believe you’re in the right.

Just because we in the real world often to assume “light vs dark” symbolizes “good vs evil” that doesn’t meant it applies to the SW universe. Also, I’m quite positive there would be plenty of people IRL that would have no issues what so ever with joining the “dark” side. If anything it has an edgy, or even exotic, vibe to it that would appeal to plenty of people.

This, but also it’s very much an ‘ends justify the means’ sort of thing for those who think they can use the dark side and still be in the right. I mean, any imperial would need to have that kind of thinking if they went along with the Death Star. Notably, if you look at when Dooku and Vader goad Anakin and Luke to use the dark side, they’re not really saying ‘be evil,’ they’re more suggesting to them that refusing to use the dark side is a weakness. This of course ties in with Yoda saying the dark side is quicker and more seductive. One could easily posit as well that using the dark side twists one’s perception of right and wrong.

That being said, not every bad guy thinks they aren’t evil. Certainly Palpatine knows he’s evil and revels in it.

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I like to think of the dark side referencing the unknown or mysteries of the Force. “If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects…”
Mysteries that the Jedi are too afraid to explore.

It is more likely the Jedi came up with the terms “light” and “dark” to reference how the two sides relate to positive and negative emotions. But Sith kept using the term in defiance of the Jedi doctrine. Or it could be a combination of both ideas.

But that’s all in-universe.

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RogueLeader said:

I like to think of the dark side referencing the unknown or mysteries of the Force. “If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects…”
Mysteries that the Jedi are too afraid to explore.

It is more likely the Jedi came up with the terms “light” and “dark” to reference how the two sides relate to positive and negative emotions. But Sith kept using the term in defiance of the Jedi doctrine. Or it could be a combination of both ideas.

But that’s all in-universe.

I think this is the best explanation of the use of ‘Dark Side’, but this would require the context of Sith dropping the term in favor of something else when not in the presence of Jedi. After all, according to Palpatine the Sith use a wider array of emotions (and presumably positive emotions) than can be encapsulated by the term. In this way the Sith’s philosophy would become genuinely seductive because of its all-inclusiveness.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
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I’ve come to see the Sith’s concept of the “dark side” as synonymous with Nietzsche’s “will to power.”

“If you err it is not for me to punish you. We are punished by our sins not for them.”

— Elbert Hubbard

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This is why I think it’d be fun to get an Old Republic series where we can see Jedi and Sith discussing their philosophies of the Force (and see how members of both the Jedi and the Sith don’t always agree with their own Order). We can see the Jedi’s turn to fundamentalism, and Bane’s rejection of the Sith dogma of his time and the creation of his Rule of Two.

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I always felt lack of philosophical cohesion would’ve been a better motivation behind the Sith infighting which led to the Rule of Two than the 2-dimensional “I wanna be king of the mountain!” BS.

“If you err it is not for me to punish you. We are punished by our sins not for them.”

— Elbert Hubbard

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Solo - this movie is so much better than it had any right to be! I really enjoy it and honestly don’t have any major complaints. I mean, really, my biggest issue is the modern, punchier blaster sound effects Disney seems to love just don’t sound as Star Wars-y as they should.

I think they did an amazing job with casting Han, Lando, and Chewie! I totally believe these are the guys who grow into our beloved OT characters.

Enfys Nest is awesome. The costume design is great (her whole band of marauders have awesome costumes, love the Native American influences!) and the character is unique and interesting. And her fights, short as they are, are amazing. I love the “feather shields” on her forearms that deflect laser blasts, her staff is wickedly cool, and her fighting style is unique, fun to watch, and believably effective. I love how if you closely watch her fight Becket on the train, you can clearly see she’s intentionally not Using lethal force. She is super aggressive and charges him, pins his blaster down and cuts it in half, then uses the energy pulse side of her staff to knock him away. She could have easily killed him but very clearly chose not to. Just a cool little tidbit that’s easy to miss because it happens so fast.

I could go on about all the things I like in this movie, but to sum it up, this movie somehow overcame some seriously massive obstacles to be a pretty great Han Solo adventure. It’s a shame it “underperformed” because I’d love to see another stand alone adventure or two with these younger versions.

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ray_afraid said:

TavorX said:

Kinda weird to think in-universe that the bad guys explicitly call their side the “dark-side.” Paradoxically they don’t believe they are evil but they’re also conceding that they are evil.

The dark half of the yin-yang isn’t evil.

Well… when the dark side of the Moon destroys an entire planet, Taoism tends to go beyond Star War’s pay-grade.

The Rise of Failures

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Light, dark. I’m the moff with the battle station.

“If you err it is not for me to punish you. We are punished by our sins not for them.”

— Elbert Hubbard

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Rogue One - now we’re really getting to the good stuff. I love this movie to death! It’s not perfect, the ending gets a bit too convoluted for its own good. But I don’t care. This movie is mid 90’s EU come to life in the best possible way!

Speaking of the ending, I do think it could’ve been reworked a little to be less convoluted. There are two main issues.

First, the whole bit about “they’ve closed the shield and we’re trapped. But we can transmit the data. But we have to open the shield to do that, which would let us escape anyway…” I think this could’ve been easily handled by just saying “they’ve closed the shield, we’re trapped and have no way to get the plans out. They have to break the shield. We can transmit the plans to make sure they get out and then try to figure out a way off this planet.”

The second issue is the whole “master switch” business. They could’ve simplified this by having pretty much all the same events transpire, but with the goal simply being to run the cord from Bhodi’s ship to an imperial comm outpost so he can broadcast his message to the rebel fleet. No convoluted master switch business to muddy up the proceedings.

But it only took me watching the film a dozen times to come up with those ideas, so I don’t hold it against the filmmakers too much.

Otherwise I love this movie and everything about it. I rank it behind only Star Wars and ESB among the theatrical films.

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There’s this one storyline in TCW about this gargantuan creature that had indestructible skin, so much so that even lightsabers bounced off it. After killing it Palpatine commissions a secret cloning of the creature to research its skin impregnable properties.

What bothers me is that this story is never brought up again. Don’t know if there was a Legends continuity comic or something that wrapped up the story, but under the Disney canon the story remains unresolved.

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canofhumdingers said:

Rogue One - now we’re really getting to the good stuff.

[…]

Otherwise I love this movie and everything about it. I rank it behind only Star Wars and ESB among the theatrical films.

I also rank it behind the first two. But that’s not me saying much.

I absolutely loved R1 the first time I watched it; my initial rating was 9/10. But each subsequent viewing diminished my opinion; I now rank it 6/10, slightly above ROTJ and TFA — and that’s almost wholly due to the visuals and music, not the writing or characterization.

“If you err it is not for me to punish you. We are punished by our sins not for them.”

— Elbert Hubbard

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I still could never stomach the “well these characters were going to die, so of course they were written for you not to feel personally and emotional attached!” justification for Rogue One.
How many one-off movies are emotionally involving with characters you grow attached to only for the characters to have tragic fates? It’s not impossible.
It’s more to me some highlight reel of the EPIC OMG Star Wars montage, and that bores me to death.

The Rise of Failures

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I did like K-2SO and Chirrut, though. If I didn’t find any of the characters engaging, R1 would probably be on equal footing with ROTJ & TFA for me.

“If you err it is not for me to punish you. We are punished by our sins not for them.”

— Elbert Hubbard