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Anyone else think Empire Strikes Back's Special Edition is actually better than the Theatrical Cut? — Page 2

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ray_afraid said:

marsthgodofwar said:

The biggest change in ESB was the color grading. Where Hoth was originally white, in the SE it is blue. I am torn on the change, because I grew up with the SE color grade and I never hated it.

It’s not just the snow. The blue tint has been applied to the entire film & it changes all of the colors for the worse.

Yeah, even the original prints seem to have blueish snow in a few sequences (just from what I’ve seen in scan previews). It seems they wanted the whole film to have a consistently cold look in the SE.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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The only thing I like about the SE are the lack of screen defects, see throughs and matte lines.

[rant]
The moronic part is that Diznee paid 4 billion with a giant clause {I know, unofficial} that they won’t screw around with it. I pay 4 Billion, I’m doing what ever the hell I want to with it. I have nor ever will understand why this @$$clown is trolling all the people who made him insanely rich. You have your preferred vision George? Great.
Why take a giant crap on everyone’s memories? It’s pointless, petty and small.

Even if Disney pulls it’s head out of its @$$ and they do an OTC release in HD, I will stay with the DeSpecialized, 4K77/4K83 fan edits just out of spite. The fans that did those love the films and did that for the love of the work and care more about the actual films than the companies do. The fans are passionate, the studios and lucas are spiteful, greedy &^%$#.[/rant]

So, In Closing, OTC Or GTFO.

Edit:
Was 4K80 Ever completed? If it was, would someone PM me with a contact so I may inquire about it?

What are my chances?
Does Not Compute.

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dmetal1 said:

[rant]
The moronic part is that Diznee paid 4 billion with a giant clause {I know, unofficial} that they won’t screw around with it. I pay 4 Billion, I’m doing what ever the hell I want to with it. I have nor ever will understand why this @$$clown is trolling all the people who made him insanely rich. You have your preferred vision George? Great.
Why take a giant crap on everyone’s memories? It’s pointless, petty and small.

Even if Disney pulls it’s head out of its @$$ and they do an OTC release in HD, I will stay with the DeSpecialized, 4K77/4K83 fan edits just out of spite. The fans that did those love the films and did that for the love of the work and care more about the actual films than the companies do. The fans are passionate, the studios and lucas are spiteful, greedy &^%$#.[/rant]

+1

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marsthgodofwar said:

The biggest change in ESB was the color grading. Where Hoth was originally white, in the SE it is blue. I am torn on the change, because I grew up with the SE color grade and I never hated it.

This is actually not true. The Hoth sequences were originally blue theatrically, but then turned white for the subsequent home video releases.

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DrDre said:

marsthgodofwar said:

The biggest change in ESB was the color grading. Where Hoth was originally white, in the SE it is blue. I am torn on the change, because I grew up with the SE color grade and I never hated it.

This is actually not true. The Hoth sequences were originally blue theatrically, but then turned white for the subsequent home video releases.

The “home video” colors are a real sin of a lot of OOT preservations.

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BedeHistory731 said:

DrDre said:

marsthgodofwar said:

The biggest change in ESB was the color grading. Where Hoth was originally white, in the SE it is blue. I am torn on the change, because I grew up with the SE color grade and I never hated it.

This is actually not true. The Hoth sequences were originally blue theatrically, but then turned white for the subsequent home video releases.

The “home video” colors are a real sin of a lot of OOT preservations.

Couldn’t agree more. That THX look with its flushed skintones is a cautionary tale, not a reference frame!

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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DrDre said:

marsthgodofwar said:

The biggest change in ESB was the color grading. Where Hoth was originally white, in the SE it is blue. I am torn on the change, because I grew up with the SE color grade and I never hated it.

This is actually not true. The Hoth sequences were originally blue theatrically, but then turned white for the subsequent home video releases.

I did not know this. Is there a way to know just how blue the original sequences were? My prevailing impression is from the VHS releases circa 1992.

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ray_afraid said:

Adaman Kenobi said:

Amongst the ESB Changes, I’m caught in the middle:

The Wampa Cave: I like the original suspense of not seeing the monster, but it just comes out of nowhere once Luke is freed, which is a bit of a continuity issue for me.

Luke is struggling to free himself in time. He’s woken by the creatures roar & it’s clear that it’s on it’s way. It doesn’t “come out of nowhere.” The scene makes sense.

Yes He hears it off in the distance, and in the original cut we get a glimpse of it lurking behind some ice, but in the wide shot of Luke falling, it’s not close enough to attack him right afterwards, hence the continuity issue for me.

In my cut, I keep the original cut until Luke frees himself, then I use the SE edition shot of Luke Falling free that includes the Wampa approaching from behind for a split second, and I kept the SE shot that shows the Wampa screaming with his arm cut off. The result maintains the “Jaws” suspense of the original, makes Luke’s fall more urgent, and gives the viewer the payoff of finally seeing the Wampa for half a second before Luke runs.

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The SE Wampa creates a much bigger continuity problem considering it has a completely different face.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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The only things good to come out of the SE IMO was the Wampa additions and Ian McDiarmid… That’s about it. I wish we could get some sort of home video release that’s like a “make your own Star Wars” kinda thing. IDK… Just my thoughts on the matter.

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Chaotic Catastrophes said:

The only things good to come out of the SE IMO was the Wampa additions and Ian McDiarmid… That’s about it. I wish we could get some sort of home video release that’s like a “make your own Star Wars” kinda thing. IDK… Just my thoughts on the matter.

You mean like select the version of each altered scene you want and it plays it for you? Thatd be cool. It’s too bad no one could legitmately do that as a business for fans and prodice a custom edit based on multiple options.

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Adaman Kenobi said:

Chaotic Catastrophes said:

The only things good to come out of the SE IMO was the Wampa additions and Ian McDiarmid… That’s about it. I wish we could get some sort of home video release that’s like a “make your own Star Wars” kinda thing. IDK… Just my thoughts on the matter.

You mean like select the version of each altered scene you want and it plays it for you? Thatd be cool. It’s too bad no one could legitmately do that as a business for fans and prodice a custom edit based on multiple options.

Too bad… Too bad indeed…

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I think the patching in of Ian McDiarmid hurts Empire, as it precludes interesting discussion like the fact that the emperor was played by a woman. My friends and I paused and had a fun chat about that when I was screening the despecialized edition for them.

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I prefer the original, but the ESB:SE is not bad unlike the SW and ROTJ SE’s which are terrible.

I can take either Wampa scene. Neither is that good.

The more open Cloud City doesn’t bother me, but I don’t think it improves anything either, but there is one new moment of people stopping to listen to Lando which just looks completely out of place.

The new approach to Cloud City and the new shuttle scene are pointless and distracting.

I liked that R2 was still blue even in space.

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Chase Adams said:

Is the 2004 removal of the '97 added scream when Luke is falling the only time Lucas has completely removed a change he made?

I think so… Unless you count all his tweaks to previously added and twisted scenes. 😕

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To give my own answer to the question, judging by actual quality rather than just subjective purism:

  • The Wampa additions are okay. The mystery surrounding the creature is reduced, but the Wampa with Tauntaun blood on its mouth is a terrifying image, so I’m fine either way.
  • The snowspeeder recompositing is amazing. The original scenes haven’t aged very well, and the speeders just look like grey blobs. Updating the original models with digital compositing makes them so much better.
  • Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine is a good idea in theory, but it ended up being a complete failure. His line reading is much more dull compared to Clive Revill’s intimidating performance, and the added dialogue just makes the plot more confusing.
  • The Cloud City additions are pretty good, but just a little too gratuitous. The added shots are just distracting, and they probably could have improved the continuity on some of the windows. Other than that, I think it helps give more of a sense of scale.
  • Temuera Morrison as Boba Fett is just a complete trainwreck. He sounds so disinterested in everything that’s going on, and it isn’t even necessary for Boba to sound exactly like his father. The original voice was perfect.
  • The added shuttle scenes are completely unnecessary, and distract from the purpose of the scene. By far the worst part is when the Falcon is escaping Cloud City with intense music, and then it suddenly just grinds to a halt to show a reused shot from ROTJ. Absolutely awful.

Over all, I think the ESB SE has some good ideas, but some bad ideas too. I mostly prefer the theatrical cut.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
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I’m a younger SW fan, so I grew up with the 2004 editions on DVD. For me it’s the little things, like the audio for “the first transport is away” is redone and it makes the moment that bit nicer. There are other very minor audio changes - and colour changes - that just enhance the film for me, and I like the different variations on the Imperial march. It might be an iconic track but hearing the same excerpt over and over every time a star destroyer is onscreen starts to become grating.

There are the usual dumb changes, particularly dialogue changes, but I agree I generally like the special edition more. It’s probably the best of the OT special editions

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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jedi_bendu said:

I’m a younger SW fan, so I grew up with the 2004 editions on DVD. For me it’s the little things, like the audio for “the first transport is away” is redone and it makes the moment that bit nicer.

Ummm… What?

I believe in regards to that replacement voiceover, they were so unbelievably lazy that they got Mark Hamill to record the line, then deepened it slightly. Much like the reuse of the Emperor’s scream when Luke is falling. Seems more like both create massively confusing and convoluted continuity errors rather than improvements.

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Attempting to evaluate it fairly, which is difficult to do when the original version has been existentially threatened for over half its lifetime by the newer versions, the SE of ESB improves about as much as it worsens and is maybe the most frustrating for it. If I sit down with the SE or DVD of ANH of ROTJ you know you’re gonna have a bad time. With ESB it’s more subtle, more insidious.

I will say, though, that the materials with ESB let me put together a satisfying Custom SE, and the little niggles that remain are negligible. For ESB the 1997 SE was pretty good, with only a couple things to dislike. The DVD and onward add only garbage but remove the scream, so… ugh. But when I watch the original I miss many of the audio changes, especially a few parts where the musical score appeared to be fixed. But my GOUT-synced 1997 audio project scratches that itch for me.

ESB gives us the best shot at an ideal version through fan contrivance, so I’ll give it that.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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I hate the New Emperor scene. I hate alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival. I hate the new sound mix, i hate the muddy colors and wrong color for Vader’s lightsaber. Everything since 2004 just gets worse all the time. Even the New Boba Fett voice sounds like they got Temuera on the telephone and recorded his new lines, reading them in a bad way. I know he can do better. That voice over was literally phoned in.

With 4K80 i hope things will finally be set right.

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A particular beef of mine was the whole recasting of Boba Fett’s voice. The original just felt so cold and true to form. Having Temuera’s voice just completely ruins his character.
Just like the original song in Jabba’s Palace will always be the one I connect with, You can’t go messing with my childhood memories and expect me not to feel peeved.