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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 154

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pleasehello said:

Almost everything you mentioned has a 1:1 counterpart in the sequel trilogy.

Which shouldn’t be taken as a compliment towards the sequels.
Copying a much better story does not make your story good.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

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 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Almost everything you mentioned has a 1:1 counterpart in the sequel trilogy.

Which shouldn’t be taken as a compliment towards the sequels.
Copying a much better story does not make your story good.

Yeah, it’s not a compliment. I’m saying they’re comparable in this one specific regard. Wexter seems to think they aren’t

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

If you mean derivative, then yes, the ST more or less repeats the OT to the point I have to wonder if it damages the overall themes more, because by including another 30 years worth of evil rising and good winning, it almost seems to imply the conflict will never end.

But I’m rambling at this point.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

If you mean derivative, then yes, the ST more or less repeats the OT to the point I have to wonder if it damages the overall themes more, because by including another 30 years worth of evil rising and good winning, it almost seems to imply the conflict will never end.

Almost like that was the point (well, before TROS muddled the waters).

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DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

If you mean derivative, then yes, the ST more or less repeats the OT to the point I have to wonder if it damages the overall themes more, because by including another 30 years worth of evil rising and good winning, it almost seems to imply the conflict will never end.

Almost like that was the point (well, before TROS muddled the waters).

True. TLJ does try at some solid themes. Although, I wish TFA had just gone ahead and started fresh with something original.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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 (Edited)

idir_hh said:

They wanted a Hollywood reboot, hence JJ Abrams.

Star Wars has never not been Hollywood, though. They’ve always been major studio releases.

The notion that they were ever “independent” films in any way has always been back-patting exaggeration on Lucas’ part more than anything. They all went through the studios, they were made to appeal to all four quadrants, the budgets only ever got bigger and bigger… they’re the definition of Hollywood. The last movie Lucas made that was at all difficult or in any way “indie”… was the first movie he ever made. Everything after that was Hollywood as hell, and unapologetically so.

The big difference is that Hollywood got better at making his movies than he did. Which is what always happens. New sets of shoulders to stand on, and then the next guy stands on THOSE shoulders, so on and so on.

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pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”.

This is simply not true. We see the Empire terrorize the citizens of Tatooine and Bespin, having spies and mercenaries everywhere, shattering the residues of the old Republic with the dissolution of Senate and destruction of Alderaan, which itself is supposed to be a clear message towards potentially dissenting systems.

Sure, the First Order somehow built the SKB, but that was supposedly a one-off device with no clear follow-up and nobody really reacts to the obliteration of several systems. My point still stands.

Almost everything you mentioned has a 1:1 counterpart in the sequel trilogy.

Sure it does, because, well, pretty much everything that happens in the sequel trilogy has a counterpart in the OT.

Except in the OT the Empire was clearly the galactic government. The ST supposedly starts with the New Republic in power, but it just fizzles out right away and presumably the First Order takes over. Hard to tell for sure, since most of it just happens off-screen.

I know we don’t see much political development in the OT either, but the stage is well described by the title crawls and several characters (especially Obi-Wan, Leia, the imperials, and, if you count the novelization and/or deleted scenes, Biggs).

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

Yes, but in some ways it is actually worse, since the message is, that even when the Resistance blows up the First Order’s big gun, a major victory in ANH, and the start of the Galactic Civil War, the rest of the galaxy is conveniently too scared, or too lazy to take on what is left of the First Order. Then in TROS these scared or lazy systems, which in TLJ apparently didn’t have the means to resist, or worse didn’t want to, just conveniently come crawling out of the woodworks at the end of the movie in a massive show of force. In other words these systems could have kicked the First Order, which was a lot smaller than the Final Order apparently, out of the galaxy any time they wanted to, but they didn’t because it wasn’t convenient for the story at that time. It’s really quite appalling the way the bigger picture was handled throughout the entire trilogy in my view.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

Yes, but in some ways it is actually worse, since the message is, that even when the Resistance blows up the First Order’s big gun, a major victory in ANH, and the start of the Galactic Civil War, the rest of the galaxy is conveniently too scared, or too lazy to take on what is left of the First Order. Then in TROS these scared or lazy systems, which in TLJ apparently didn’t have the means to resist, or worse didn’t want to, just conveniently come crawling out of the woodworks at the end of the movie in a massive show of force. In other words these systems could have kicked the First Order, which was a lot smaller than the Final Order apparently, out of the galaxy any time they wanted to, but they didn’t because it wasn’t convenient for the story at that time. It’s really quite appalling the way the bigger picture was handled throughout the entire trilogy in my view.

Appalling?

A few wars or rebellions in real life start like this though. It takes time for people to muster the strength and courage to fight, or even the realisation that THEY themselves need to fight (that nobody else is going to do it for them) - and sometimes they may need a final push, or a reminder of how awful it actually is now (or was before) that can stir them into action.

The story of Luke Skywalker (Jedi Knight! 😉) returning to fight the First Order on Crait will have likely have spread throughout the galaxy too given time - to give both hope and belief to people there is a chance, and a need, to fight against those who wish to oppress them.

A message from Palpatine… broadcast throughout the galaxy that he’ll be back in charge soon and everyone will have to submit to his will again - backed up by a demonstration of the firepower he now in the Star Destroyer blowing up that planet - could inspire or trigger people to take up the fight too.
 

It is also made clear in TROS by the Imperial Officer at Exegol that these are just people - it is a fleet of people - who have only just come together to fight Palpatine and his newly announced oppression, and is not an orginised fleet in the way Rebel fleets in the Original Trilogy were.

The FE Renegades thread; from the people who post ‘go kill yourself’, ‘fuck you’, ‘let’s throw abuse’, and more at OT staff & members. Four years on and still throwing accusations, slurs and abuse at the OT & anyone outside their Salacious Crumb filled clique. + FE Discord “to vent” more at the OT. Wook’s take.

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Didn’t TLJ imply that Luke’s sacrifice would inspire rebellion across the galaxy? Wasn’t that what the end scene was all about?

Instead we got Luke sacrificing himself for no reason, no one in the galaxy caring about the First Order for a whole year, and then Lando somehow convinces the entire galaxy to fight the First Order in the span of 30 minutes.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

Didn’t TLJ imply that Luke’s sacrifice would inspire rebellion across the galaxy? Wasn’t that what the end scene was all about?

Instead we got Luke sacrificing himself for no reason, no one in the galaxy caring about the First Order for a whole year, and then Lando somehow convinces the entire galaxy to fight the First Order in the span of 30 minutes.

Mm, not quite. The end of TLJ implies that the Force, hope, and people’s belief in what is good and right would continue to inspire rebellion against the forces of evil, as it always had, and that the seed of Millenium Falcon and its occupants, particularly Rey but really also everyone else, will grow in this galaxy of fertile soil, the spark that reignites the fire. Not many would necessarily know of Luke’s sacrifice, but that’s okay; his legend is firmly established as an example in the minds of many.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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timdiggerm said:

StarkillerAG said:

Didn’t TLJ imply that Luke’s sacrifice would inspire rebellion across the galaxy? Wasn’t that what the end scene was all about?

Instead we got Luke sacrificing himself for no reason, no one in the galaxy caring about the First Order for a whole year, and then Lando somehow convinces the entire galaxy to fight the First Order in the span of 30 minutes.

Mm, not quite. The end of TLJ implies that the Force, hope, and people’s belief in what is good and right would continue to inspire rebellion against the forces of evil, as it always had, and that the seed of Millenium Falcon and its occupants, particularly Rey but really also everyone else, will grow in this galaxy of fertile soil, the spark that reignites the fire. Not many would necessarily know of Luke’s sacrifice, but that’s okay; his legend is firmly established as an example in the minds of many.

That’s the problem though: Luke’s legend doesn’t inspire rebellion across the galaxy. The Resistance has barely grown in the year between TLJ and TROS, and the only reason anyone bothered to show up at the final battle at Exegol was because of Lando’s insane smooth-talking skills. It’s another example of JJ throwing away all the good stuff from TLJ.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

timdiggerm said:

StarkillerAG said:

Didn’t TLJ imply that Luke’s sacrifice would inspire rebellion across the galaxy? Wasn’t that what the end scene was all about?

Instead we got Luke sacrificing himself for no reason, no one in the galaxy caring about the First Order for a whole year, and then Lando somehow convinces the entire galaxy to fight the First Order in the span of 30 minutes.

Mm, not quite. The end of TLJ implies that the Force, hope, and people’s belief in what is good and right would continue to inspire rebellion against the forces of evil, as it always had, and that the seed of Millenium Falcon and its occupants, particularly Rey but really also everyone else, will grow in this galaxy of fertile soil, the spark that reignites the fire. Not many would necessarily know of Luke’s sacrifice, but that’s okay; his legend is firmly established as an example in the minds of many.

That’s the problem though: Luke’s legend doesn’t inspire rebellion across the galaxy. The Resistance has barely grown in the year between TLJ and TROS, and the only reason anyone bothered to show up at the final battle at Exegol was because of Lando’s insane smooth-talking skills. It’s another example of JJ throwing away all the good stuff from TLJ.

Oh, I wasn’t disagreeing with that. I haven’t even seen TROS.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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Fated-Dualist said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

Yes, but in some ways it is actually worse, since the message is, that even when the Resistance blows up the First Order’s big gun, a major victory in ANH, and the start of the Galactic Civil War, the rest of the galaxy is conveniently too scared, or too lazy to take on what is left of the First Order. Then in TROS these scared or lazy systems, which in TLJ apparently didn’t have the means to resist, or worse didn’t want to, just conveniently come crawling out of the woodworks at the end of the movie in a massive show of force. In other words these systems could have kicked the First Order, which was a lot smaller than the Final Order apparently, out of the galaxy any time they wanted to, but they didn’t because it wasn’t convenient for the story at that time. It’s really quite appalling the way the bigger picture was handled throughout the entire trilogy in my view.

Appalling?

A few wars or rebellions in real life start like this though. It takes time for people to muster the strength and courage to fight, or even the realisation that THEY themselves need to fight (that nobody else is going to do it for them) - and sometimes they may need a final push, or a reminder of how awful it actually is now (or was before) that can stir them into action.

This is not how invasions by a foreign power work. There isn’t a single country that was attacked by the Nazis in WW2, that didn’t put up a fight at least for a while. Most of them didn’t last very long, but that is beside the point. Yet, in the ST we are supposed to believe the entire galaxy just gives up, and allows the FO to overrun them, even though they clearly have the means to stop them, as is evident in TROS.

The story of Luke Skywalker (Jedi Knight! 😉) returning to fight the First Order on Crait will have likely have spread throughout the galaxy too given time - to give both hope and belief to people there is a chance, and a need, to fight against those who wish to oppress them.

The destruction of SKB, an actual victory, rather than a symbolic one, should be enough reason to come to the Resistance’s aid. Yet, rather than being the symbol of a new hope, as in the first film, it is met with cynicism, and apathy.

A message from Palpatine… broadcast throughout the galaxy that he’ll be back in charge soon and everyone will have to submit to his will again - backed up by a demonstration of the firepower he now in the Star Destroyer blowing up that planet - could inspire or trigger people to take up the fight too.
 

Really? And the actual destruction of the New Republic’s capital does not?

It is also made clear in TROS by the Imperial Officer at Exegol that these are just people - it is a fleet of people - who have only just come together to fight Palpatine and his newly announced oppression, and is not an orginised fleet in the way Rebel fleets in the Original Trilogy were.

This is a running theme in the ST. The FO is a fringe government, but they act just like the Empire, and have infinite resources. The Resistance is a military group supported by the New Republic, but they act just like the Rebellion. The rebel fleet in TROS are “just people”, but it is the largest armada, you have ever seen. To me this is why much of what happens in the ST so hollow. Fleets, resources, evil overlords, and Force powers are just pulled out of thin air, or conjured, whenever the script requires it. Lando musters an entire fleet of random people from all over the galaxy in a matter of hours, the way a kid goes home to get his brothers to help him fight the neighbourhood bullies. There’s no sense of time, or scale, and it ultimately ends up feeling totally inconsequential. One fleet that comes out of nowhere destroys another fleet, that comes out of nowhere.

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Now that I’ve had even more time to digest the leaked details from Colin’s script, I gotta admit that I’m finding more and more things that I like, mainly with Finn’s arc. Some sorta combo between Colin’s version and JJ’s would’ve been the ideal. Ultimately tho, if I had to pick just one version, I still prefer the movie we got.

That being said, I recall thinking back in the day that the ideal endpoint for Episode 9 would be for Rey to create a new order that merges light and dark, cause I couldn’t think of any other way to make this new trilogy feel “important” with respect to the rest of the saga. However, having now actually seen the movie, I think that by bringing back Palpatine and implying through Anakin’s one line that the prophecy is a cyclical thing that’s destined to keep repeating, JJ found a more fitting way to give this trilogy a sense of “importance” when put alongside the other movies.

In a weird sorta way, I think Colin’s version is the more fitting end to this trilogy specifically, while JJ’s version is a more fitting end to the saga as a whole. And personally, I think the latter is the more important in the grand scheme of things.

http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/full-circle-order-new-way-to-watch-star.html?m=1

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timdiggerm said:

idir_hh said:

A plethora of concept art from the rise of skywalker including Kylo Ren and chewbacca and the jedi temple on coruscant:

https://mobile.twitter.com/fpdlffh/status/1218114589352529920?s=20

Surely these are from the “Duel of the Fates” draft

Actually those were from a scene that was cut from the film pretty late in the game.

This is a picture from the Art book that seems to a still from the film:

Still very possible this was something originally developed for Trevorrow’s version, though. With so little time I imagine they had no choice but to use some of the visual concepts already being developed.

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I think the Oracle could have been inspired by the “Tor Valum” character in CT’s script.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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Broom Kid said:

idir_hh said:

They wanted a Hollywood reboot, hence JJ Abrams.

Star Wars has never not been Hollywood, though. They’ve always been major studio releases.

The notion that they were ever “independent” films in any way has always been back-patting exaggeration on Lucas’ part more than anything. They all went through the studios, they were made to appeal to all four quadrants, the budgets only ever got bigger and bigger… they’re the definition of Hollywood. The last movie Lucas made that was at all difficult or in any way “indie”… was the first movie he ever made. Everything after that was Hollywood as hell, and unapologetically so.

The big difference is that Hollywood got better at making his movies than he did. Which is what always happens. New sets of shoulders to stand on, and then the next guy stands on THOSE shoulders, so on and so on.

Technically you are incorrect. Star Wars in 1977 was a studio movie. Controlled and funded by 20th Century Fox. They owned the distribution rights until Disney bought them. Eps 5, 6, 1, 2, and 3 were technically indpendent films made solely by Lucasfilm and only distributed by 20th Century Fox. All that Star Wars merchandise from 77 through 80 paid for TESB and continued to pay for the others. Pepsi fed in a huge sum to buy rights during the prequels. But Lucas didn’t have to answer to anyone for any of those 5 films, only himself. Most people think of independent as small budget, but the real aspect is a lack of any major studio influence. Lucas’s forward thinking with regards to merchandise tie-ins on the first film funded the other 5 films. That’s why the digital versions of the other 5 films had the 20th Century Fox fanfare removed. Lucasfilm was the only production company involved.

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rocknroll41 said:

Now that I’ve had even more time to digest the leaked details from Colin’s script, I gotta admit that I’m finding more and more things that I like, mainly with Finn’s arc. Some sorta combo between Colin’s version and JJ’s would’ve been the ideal. Ultimately tho, if I had to pick just one version, I still prefer the movie we got.

That being said, I recall thinking back in the day that the ideal endpoint for Episode 9 would be for Rey to create a new order that merges light and dark, cause I couldn’t think of any other way to make this new trilogy feel “important” with respect to the rest of the saga. However, having now actually seen the movie, I think that by bringing back Palpatine and implying through Anakin’s one line that the prophecy is a cyclical thing that’s destined to keep repeating, JJ found a more fitting way to give this trilogy a sense of “importance” when put alongside the other movies.

In a weird sorta way, I think Colin’s version is the more fitting end to this trilogy specifically, while JJ’s version is a more fitting end to the saga as a whole. And personally, I think the latter is the more important in the grand scheme of things.

I think Rey’s yellow saber really implies she is going to go forward with a more balanced order. I think that Yoda training Luke and Rey training herself from the most ancient texts (from when there was balance) gives us a difference. Anakin was supposed to balance the force and he sort of did, but left his Jedi trained son to carry on and this time we got a different ending that brings better balance. Plus after ROTJ, someone helped Palaptine survive so we have to face him again (a very mythic redo to the previous defeat).

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DrDre said:

Fated-Dualist said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

Yes, but in some ways it is actually worse, since the message is, that even when the Resistance blows up the First Order’s big gun, a major victory in ANH, and the start of the Galactic Civil War, the rest of the galaxy is conveniently too scared, or too lazy to take on what is left of the First Order. Then in TROS these scared or lazy systems, which in TLJ apparently didn’t have the means to resist, or worse didn’t want to, just conveniently come crawling out of the woodworks at the end of the movie in a massive show of force. In other words these systems could have kicked the First Order, which was a lot smaller than the Final Order apparently, out of the galaxy any time they wanted to, but they didn’t because it wasn’t convenient for the story at that time. It’s really quite appalling the way the bigger picture was handled throughout the entire trilogy in my view.

Appalling?

A few wars or rebellions in real life start like this though. It takes time for people to muster the strength and courage to fight, or even the realisation that THEY themselves need to fight (that nobody else is going to do it for them) - and sometimes they may need a final push, or a reminder of how awful it actually is now (or was before) that can stir them into action.

This is not how invasions by a foreign power work. There isn’t a single country that was attacked by the Nazis in WW2, that didn’t put up a fight at least for a while. Most of them didn’t last very long, but that is beside the point. Yet, in the ST we are supposed to believe the entire galaxy just gives up, and allows the FO to overrun them, even though they clearly have the means to stop them, as is evident in TROS.

There’s really no need to break my post down in a way to negate the context of it as a whole (or overall), but I understand why people do.

The Nazi’s don’t work as an expample here as, stated in my post as a whole, it is the people who rose up to fight against them - not a displaced/evacuated professional armed forces who retreated elsewhere to fight another day.
 

The story of Luke Skywalker (Jedi Knight! 😉) returning to fight the First Order on Crait will have likely have spread throughout the galaxy too given time - to give both hope and belief to people there is a chance, and a need, to fight against those who wish to oppress them.

The destruction of SKB, an actual victory, rather than a symbolic one, should be enough reason to come to the Resistance’s aid. Yet, rather than being the symbol of a new hope, as in the first film, it is met with cynicism, and apathy.

As my post (in its entirety) said, it can take time for word to spread - apparently it is a big galaxy - and only weeks or a couple of months have passed since the destruction of SKB? People take time to find courage and strength to fight - again, this is not a professional army or organised fleet.

The story of Luke back to lead the fight on Crait - after the destruction of SKB - would have also inspired more hope, more belief in those people.
 

A message from Palpatine… broadcast throughout the galaxy that he’ll be back in charge soon and everyone will have to submit to his will again - backed up by a demonstration of the firepower he now in the Star Destroyer blowing up that planet - could inspire or trigger people to take up the fight too.
 

Really? And the actual destruction of the New Republic’s capital does not?

The above reply also applies here (well, most of it 😉).
 

It is also made clear in TROS by the Imperial Officer at Exegol that these are just people - it is a fleet of people - who have only just come together to fight Palpatine and his newly announced oppression, and is not an orginised fleet in the way Rebel fleets in the Original Trilogy were.

This is a running theme in the ST. The FO is a fringe government, but they act just like the Empire, and have infinite resources. The Resistance is a military group supported by the New Republic, but they act just like the Rebellion. The rebel fleet in TROS are “just people”, but it is the largest armada, you have ever seen. To me this is why much of what happens in the ST so hollow. Fleets, resources, evil overlords, and Force powers are just pulled out of thin air, or conjured, whenever the script requires it. Lando musters an entire fleet of random people from all over the galaxy in a matter of hours, the way a kid goes home to get his brothers to help him fight the neighbourhood bullies. There’s no sense of time, or scale, and it ultimately ends up feeling totally inconsequential. One fleet that comes out of nowhere destroys another fleet, that comes out of nowhere.

That isn’t so - in that the FO seem quite excited at swelling their ranks and resources a ‘thousand-fold’ (that was the term used in the film?) to control the galaxy.

The Resistance seem to be a group which is not a part of the New Republic itself - but funded and supported by those in it who have concerns with the First Order. It is obvious that the Resistance struggles for financial and also numerical support - and operate on severely limited resources.

To me, and as posted on here elsewhere, it would have been better to see Lando (and others) recruit people to the fight earlier in the movie, to persuade these everyday scared people reluctant to get involved, in a battle they may not think they have a chance to prevail in. To use Luke’s story on Crait, to use the Empreror’s return broadcast and SD destroying the planet to convince people (the spark to light the fire), to swell the numbers, and to equal the playing field.

Now, it would certainly give more emotional weight to the end fight itself if we saw these everyday people who were persuaded to fight in peril or perish - and also for others to later win, for sure.

Yet they were not ‘conjured or pulled out of nowhere’ though - we are told in previous films the Resistance has friends and allies still, and also in this film - by Poe when he gives his speech that people are willing to fight - ‘We’re not alone. Good people will fight if we lead them’.

I’ve seen a line posted on here recently, and is quite apt for here too - ‘facts don’t cease to exist because they are ignored’.
 

So respectfully, I disagree with your reply (or replies; given the breakdown and separation of the post as a whole) - but I do understand and agree with some of the issues some people have with the film; I have a few myself.
 

The FE Renegades thread; from the people who post ‘go kill yourself’, ‘fuck you’, ‘let’s throw abuse’, and more at OT staff & members. Four years on and still throwing accusations, slurs and abuse at the OT & anyone outside their Salacious Crumb filled clique. + FE Discord “to vent” more at the OT. Wook’s take.