STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - ** PRODUCTION HAS NOW RESTARTED ** — Page 50

Are you… both people?

Maybe?

adywan said:

The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃

Great news Ady, I just pushed it a bit closer again with another donation 😄 It’s my 2nd donation for ROTJ:R but my 3rd overall and in my mind, a belated donation for ANH:R at which time I wasn’t around to be able to make it. All the best with reaching your donation goals and completing ROTJ:R along with any future projects.

Also thank you to the member who started the $1000 challenge and your generosity in personally matching whatever target is reached. From the sounds of it, the challenge has made a big difference in Ady reaching where he needs to be in order to feasibly fund and complete ROTJ:R and for that I will be forever grateful.

.Val

Valheru_84 said:

ray_afraid said:

To me, he was saying “I don’t need this anymore.” He’s grown past it.
"You’re weapons, you will not need them."
Otherwise he just threw it to look cool. And that’s silly.

It’s not the biggest deal, and certainly a minor thing in the list of fixes Jedi needs.
Also, this is a fairly simple thing to fix, so if I’m alone on this I can do it for myself I suppose.

Interesting take on his motives though to me they seem pretty illogical and disconnected from what actually happens on screen. It does kinda make sense now with your view on him collecting his saber before leaving but I still wholey disagree with it.

Here is the scene: https://youtu.be/PqaiKmm8gsY

---

Emp: walking down the stairs “cackle Goood…cackle. Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfil your destiny and take your father’s place at my side”

Luke: sees the potential truth in the Emp’s words, having used his anger to defeat Vader and now can see a symbolic replacement of Vader already in Vader’s now missing mechanical right hand while Luke clenches his own in realisation he was already starting down that path. He had been warned numerous times about the dark side, never thinking he may actually be susceptible to its sinister lure and this snaps him out of the moment, realising he is being manipulated and forcibly reasserts his inner calm, remembering who he is - a Jedi. He says “Never.” as he turns around, turning his lightsaber off and defiantly throwing it away as he stands tall and walks without fear towards the Emp. “I’ll never turn to the dark side.” he says, preferring to die a Jedi than live on as a Sith pawn as all he holds dear is destroyed. “You failed your highness, I am a Jedi, like my father before me”. He waits, to see what fate now holds for him, as a Jedi…

Emp: “So be it…Jedi” SCRRCCHHHH! 😛

---

Probably didn’t need to play out that entire scene but no where in there do I see or feel anything about growing past the need for his lightsaber and I can’t make any sense of that in context to the scene. It’s not like he thinks upon defeating Vader that he’s ascended to a higher level and could fight the Emp without his saber like Yoda does in the PT. To me, his action is in direct relation to what he says at the time - “Never”

True if he picked it up again while the Emp was still alive then on both accounts it was a worthless guesture, but him retrieving it afterwards does not take away at all from the scene I described above.

.Val

It always seemed to me that it never occurred to Luke that the emperor had the kind of power he has (lightning). That the emperor was a manipulator, and not necessarily a offensive force user. Thus he posed no direct threat to him unless Luke gave into the dark side. That’s what obi wan and yoda always warned him about. You would think they’d tell him, “hey, by the way, the emperor can shoot lightning from his hands and kill you.” I think it was intentional that they never mentioned the emperor’s power to Luke because they didn’t want him to become a tool of the emperor, by going into the confrontation with the mindset of beating the emperor by physical force alone. It seems that the use of aggression is a step toward the dark side. I believe they thought the only chance Luke had to beat the emperor was by will of mind alone. I know that doesn’t really give a good example of how he would then beat the emperor, but it seems that losing Luke to the dark side would be a worse fate than death.

adywan said:

The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃

Come on guys, I bet if it was a Twilight Fan edit I’d already be out 1,000 bucks.

littlev87 said:

Valheru_84 said:

ray_afraid said:

To me, he was saying “I don’t need this anymore.” He’s grown past it.
"You’re weapons, you will not need them."
Otherwise he just threw it to look cool. And that’s silly.

It’s not the biggest deal, and certainly a minor thing in the list of fixes Jedi needs.
Also, this is a fairly simple thing to fix, so if I’m alone on this I can do it for myself I suppose.

Interesting take on his motives though to me they seem pretty illogical and disconnected from what actually happens on screen. It does kinda make sense now with your view on him collecting his saber before leaving but I still wholey disagree with it.

Here is the scene: https://youtu.be/PqaiKmm8gsY

---

Emp: walking down the stairs “cackle Goood…cackle. Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfil your destiny and take your father’s place at my side”

Luke: sees the potential truth in the Emp’s words, having used his anger to defeat Vader and now can see a symbolic replacement of Vader already in Vader’s now missing mechanical right hand while Luke clenches his own in realisation he was already starting down that path. He had been warned numerous times about the dark side, never thinking he may actually be susceptible to its sinister lure and this snaps him out of the moment, realising he is being manipulated and forcibly reasserts his inner calm, remembering who he is - a Jedi. He says “Never.” as he turns around, turning his lightsaber off and defiantly throwing it away as he stands tall and walks without fear towards the Emp. “I’ll never turn to the dark side.” he says, preferring to die a Jedi than live on as a Sith pawn as all he holds dear is destroyed. “You failed your highness, I am a Jedi, like my father before me”. He waits, to see what fate now holds for him, as a Jedi…

Emp: “So be it…Jedi” SCRRCCHHHH! 😛

---

Probably didn’t need to play out that entire scene but no where in there do I see or feel anything about growing past the need for his lightsaber and I can’t make any sense of that in context to the scene. It’s not like he thinks upon defeating Vader that he’s ascended to a higher level and could fight the Emp without his saber like Yoda does in the PT. To me, his action is in direct relation to what he says at the time - “Never”

True if he picked it up again while the Emp was still alive then on both accounts it was a worthless guesture, but him retrieving it afterwards does not take away at all from the scene I described above.

.Val

It always seemed to me that it never occurred to Luke that the emperor had the kind of power he has (lightning). That the emperor was a manipulator, and not necessarily a offensive force user. Thus he posed no direct threat to him unless Luke gave into the dark side. That’s what obi wan and yoda always warned him about. You would think they’d tell him, “hey, by the way, the emperor can shoot lightning from his hands and kill you.” I think it was intentional that they never mentioned the emperor’s power to Luke because they didn’t want him to become a tool of the emperor, by going into the confrontation with the mindset of beating the emperor by physical force alone. It seems that the use of aggression is a step toward the dark side. I believe they thought the only chance Luke had to beat the emperor was by will of mind alone. I know that doesn’t really give a good example of how he would then beat the emperor, but it seems that losing Luke to the dark side would be a worse fate than death.

I get what you mean though at the same time, it’s possible neither Ben nor Yoda knew either as to the extent of the Emperor’s force powers. That probably sounds odd until you think in terms of the OT story without the kind of retconned knowledge that the PT now gives you, even subconsciously. Until the PT (and after your first watch through), no one knew about the Emperor’s powers until he uses them at the end of the last movie and this could be the same for the characters, with Vader having done all of his dirty work up until that point. Even if Ben and Yoda don’t know about the Emp’s force lightning though, I’m sure they’re still well aware of generally how powerful he is and this lends itself to some of your good points about Luke needing not just to win in a physical test, but a mental and strength of will test as well.

The thought did surface for myself when writing my earlier post, that having defeated Vader Luke is now free to challenge the Emperor so you wouldn’t have thought it a logical choice to instead through away his lightsaber in defiance. The fact he does do this though speaks subliminally that he knows he is no match for the Emperor and simply accepts his fate. It could be he had already felt how strong the Emperor was, as it’s already well established by then that force users can detect how strong another person is in the force.

Overall I think the main intention was simply for Luke to find himself again after defeating Vader when he realises their main goal is to turn him. He then decides he’s not going to kill or continue to fight his father and he’s not going to turn to the dark side. So defiantly he basically says the Emp has failed and to either kill him now or let him go as he’s not going to play their game full stop. It’s definitely an interesting scene to debate.

.Val

1,000 Challenge said:

adywan said:

The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃

Come on guys, I bet if it was a Twilight Fan edit I’d already be out 1,000 bucks.

ray_afraid said:

Valheru_84 said:

no where in there do I see or feel anything about growing past the need for his lightsaber and I can’t make any sense of that in context to the scene. It’s not like he thinks upon defeating Vader that he’s ascended to a higher level and could fight the Emp without his saber

He realizes that fighting isn’t the way. If it costs him his life, so be it, but he’s trusting the Force now and not himself. That’s the “leveling up”.
Like many elements of ROTJ, it’s murky and not perfect and not everyone will agree, but that’s my take:
He either tosses it because he’s just ‘moved past it’ so to speak, or he’s just being stupid. 😉

JEDIT- Also, isn’t it maybe more interesting to leave it a bit ambiguous by not seeing the saber on his belt at the end? I dunno.
It’ll be interesting to see if he has it in the ST.

Yeah not convinced sorry, but that’s fine…we all interpret and enjoy the movies in different ways. Seeing that originally the saber is there at the end (whether it’s a missed continuity error or not) it will definitely be interesting to see if it resurfaces in TLJ and I guess that will probably be the decider on canon / fan theories.

.Val

Valheru_84 said:

The thought did surface for myself when writing my earlier post, that having defeated Vader Luke is now free to challenge the Emperor so you wouldn’t have thought it a logical choice to instead through away his lightsaber in defiance. The fact he does do this though speaks subliminally that he knows he is no match for the Emperor and simply accepts his fate. It could be he had already felt how strong the Emperor was, as it’s already well established by then that force users can detect how strong another person is in the force.

Overall I think the main intention was simply for Luke to find himself again after defeating Vader when he realises their main goal is to turn him. He then decides he’s not going to kill or continue to fight his father and he’s not going to turn to the dark side. So defiantly he basically says the Emp has failed and to either kill him now or let him go as he’s not going to play their game full stop. It’s definitely an interesting scene to debate.

.Val

Really good point about the force sensing, that didn’t occur to me, but it makes sense.

ray_afraid said:

He realizes that fighting isn’t the way. If it costs him his life, so be it, but he’s trusting the Force now and not himself. That’s the “leveling up”.
Like many elements of ROTJ, it’s murky and not perfect and not everyone will agree, but that’s my take:
He either tosses it because he’s just ‘moved past it’ so to speak, or he’s just being stupid. 😉

I think this is a great addition to the idea of sensing the emperor’s power that val mentioned. I think Luke definitely believes in the “will of the force” like how he jumps, potentially to his death, in cloud city.

Overall it seems to be the throwing of the saber is purely symbolic, because up until this point, if I recall correctly the only jedi specific tool Luke uses as a weapon is his saber. Its his way and the directors way of showing he will no longer partake in being egged on by the emperor, and refuses to fight, because he knows its the only way the emperor can take control of him.

Honestly though, I can’t imagine why Luke would ever have the mindset to permanently throw away his saber. Its symbolic of his journey in learning the force. Its the only thing that ties him to the jedi teachings outside of his own mind.

He may or may not have his saber in TLJ but as an old master I think light sabers are irrelevant. I wish they wouldn’t have been relied on so much in the PT especially yoda and palps. Really waters down their characters.

(just remembered luke used force choke on the guards at jabba’s, so that might kinda negate my point)

Valheru_84 said:

1,000 Challenge said:

adywan said:

The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃

Come on guys, I bet if it was a Twilight Fan edit I’d already be out 1,000 bucks.

Damn. That must be one bad love story if the PT beats it.

littlev87 said:

Valheru_84 said:

The thought did surface for myself when writing my earlier post, that having defeated Vader Luke is now free to challenge the Emperor so you wouldn’t have thought it a logical choice to instead through away his lightsaber in defiance. The fact he does do this though speaks subliminally that he knows he is no match for the Emperor and simply accepts his fate. It could be he had already felt how strong the Emperor was, as it’s already well established by then that force users can detect how strong another person is in the force.

Overall I think the main intention was simply for Luke to find himself again after defeating Vader when he realises their main goal is to turn him. He then decides he’s not going to kill or continue to fight his father and he’s not going to turn to the dark side. So defiantly he basically says the Emp has failed and to either kill him now or let him go as he’s not going to play their game full stop. It’s definitely an interesting scene to debate.

.Val

Really good point about the force sensing, that didn’t occur to me, but it makes sense.

ray_afraid said:

He realizes that fighting isn’t the way. If it costs him his life, so be it, but he’s trusting the Force now and not himself. That’s the “leveling up”.
Like many elements of ROTJ, it’s murky and not perfect and not everyone will agree, but that’s my take:
He either tosses it because he’s just ‘moved past it’ so to speak, or he’s just being stupid. 😉

I think this is a great addition to the idea of sensing the emperor’s power that val mentioned. I think Luke definitely believes in the “will of the force” like how he jumps in cloud city.

Overall it seems to be the throwing of the saber is purely symbolic, because up until this point, if I recall correctly the only jedi specific tool Luke uses as a weapon is his saber. Its his way and the directors way of showing he will no longer partake in being egged on by the emperor, and refuses to fight, because he knows its the only way the emperor can take control of him.

Honestly though, I can’t imagine why Luke would ever have the mindset to permanently throw away his saber. Its symbolic of his journey in learning the force. Its the only thing that ties him to the jedi teachings outside of his own mind.

He may or may not have his saber in TLJ but as an old master I think light sabers are irrelevant. I wish they wouldn’t have been relied on so much in the PT especially yoda and palps. Really waters down their characters.

(just remembered luke used force choke on the guards at jabba’s, so that might kinda negate my point)

Some good observations there littlev87 and I do agree in a way with ray_afraid’s below comment:

ray_afraid said:
He realizes that fighting isn’t the way.

But like you, in the end I can’t see any reasoning as to why he wouldn’t get his saber back afterwards. It was thrown away as a symbolic gesture specifically tied to the situation he was in. When that situation stopped being relevant, it stopped being relevant for him to symbolically give up his lightsaber. If he had never been put in that situation in the first place then he would never have thrown his saber away.

In regards to Jedi Masters, I don’t thinking becoming one makes lightsabers irrelevant but generally you can find other, wiser means to deal with problems such as force suggestion rather than violence with a saber being your first option every time. Just think of Ben…he may as well be a Jedi Master in ANH, still carries a lightsaber but only uses it in times of extreme danger and need. He uses other aspects of the force in seeking more diplomatic solutions, even just trying to normally talk down the outlaws at the Mos Eisley Cantina before it quickly escalates and he needs to end it immediately.

You’re definitely not wrong in respect to the Yoda and Palp characters in the PT though. Having them leaping about with sabers greatly diminished their awe and presence, which previously never visibly seeing them with a saber (except for Emp commandeering Luke’s in ROTJ) gave them a much more impressive and reverent status while their students openly wielded their sabers without much provocation.

.Val

A little over 4 days remaining for the Return of the Jedi: Revisited $1000 challenge. You have now through Sunday (November 12th) to make your contribution. Send your donation to Adywan with a note that it is part of the $1,000 challenge.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Valheru_84 said:

1,000 Challenge said:

adywan said:

The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃

Come on guys, I bet if it was a Twilight Fan edit I’d already be out 1,000 bucks.

Damn. That must be one bad love story if the PT beats it.

At least with AOTC, the actors knew why their characters would fall in love with each other. In Twilight, not even Robert Pattinson knew why Edward would in love with someone like Bella.

Edward kidnaps Bella, forbids her from seeing her best friend, stalks her, and spies on her while she sleeps. Anakin never does anything that cruel to Padme, and she is also much more confident and strong-willed than Bella.

ray_afraid said:

Editroid said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Valheru_84 said:

1,000 Challenge said:

adywan said:

The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃

Come on guys, I bet if it was a Twilight Fan edit I’d already be out 1,000 bucks.

Damn. That must be one bad love story if the PT beats it.

At least with AOTC, the actors knew why their characters would fall in love with each other.

Ha no. Natalie had no reason to even like Anni. Nor did anyone else.

I rest my case.

Too bad there won’t be a PT revisited. Oh well.

But anyway, I always took it as Luke only threw his saber because he was saying, “No, I will not join you!”. He wasn’t throwing it in the trash because he didn’t want/ need it anymore.