Neverar's A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Final Version Released!) — Page 16

Ronster said:

And let me be clear. If you can figure out what something is meant to look like in reality approximately without any Warts.

When you compare it to several versions with Warts you can understand how each of your sources is altering or differing from what it looked like in reality approximately. And how much say a certain source is altering what it would look like in reality.

you can then infer a difference of how much each of your references is off by to come to a mean average.

So I was trying to be helpful in a lateral way but you simply have not grasped that.

Nevermind & Good Luck

I very much appreciate any input or suggestions, so if I misread your post I apologize, but you should also appreciate, that you may invite such responses by continually taking a condescending attitude, by using terms like “you are very much ignoring”, “are getting a bit confused”, “you are not taking in to account”. These are all assumptions on your side, but you state them as fact. I’m very well aware, that different sources can give different information, and I’m also aware that the neutral "real "colors can be helpful as well. I created an entire thread on the subject, and built a software tool specifically for this purpose. I’m however also aware (thanks to poita), that film makers often alter the look of scenes during grading. Sometimes these alterations can be subtle, such as a slightly warmer or cooler tone, but sometimes these alterations can be more radical.

Incidentally, I agree the R2-D2 frame has a blue cast, which is a bit obscured by the lower contrast and yellow/green tone of the video.

No hard feelings and I think we can put this all down to being misunderstood.

I am trying to figure out what something looks like in reality more or less without the warts you want to recreate the perfect wart. I don’t mean to come across as condescending to you what so ever.

I was simply taking interest in trying to figure out what color the lighting actually was rather than trying to recreate a yellow looking 70’s film.

And that is where the misunderstanding 100% is resting between us.

I think it is very clear.

I stand corrected. Not all home video releases show the Leia/R2-D2 corridor scene with neutral colors. I looked at the first 1982 laserdisc release and guess what:

Interesting. But that looks incredibly mild compared to some of the other scans and corrections.

towne32 said:

Interesting. But that looks incredibly mild compared to some of the other scans and corrections.

It’s low contrast like most laserdisc transfers, but it’s a pretty close match I think:

On the Leia Artoo shot. It seems to me that the most accurate and in my opinion best looking correction is somewhere in between neutral and green. With the green only peeking through in the darker areas. That’s also consistent with film of the time, which we’ve found often turns shadows green.

On another note. These discussions of what “the correct color” for certain scenes seems to pop up every time there’s any kind of color correction project. It’s popped up in my thread, towne32’s thread, here, harmy’s, etc. Even in cases where it’s not exactly relevant. Is there currently a thread where the accurate 1977 color timing of Star Wars is the sole topic of conversation? If not, would we benefit from such a thread? Keeping it all in one place and all.

Obi Wan’s beard is clearly intended to be purple !

Darth Lucas said:

On the Leia Artoo shot. It seems to me that the most accurate and in my opinion best looking correction is somewhere in between neutral and green. With the green only peeking through in the darker areas. That’s also consistent with film of the time, which we’ve found often turns shadows green.

On another note. These discussions of what “the correct color” for certain scenes seems to pop up every time there’s any kind of color correction project. It’s popped up in my thread, towne32’s thread, here, harmy’s, etc. Even in cases where it’s not exactly relevant. Is there currently a thread where the accurate 1977 color timing of Star Wars is the sole topic of conversation? If not, would we benefit from such a thread? Keeping it all in one place and all.

I’d like to see a thread on the '77 colors. Would you care to start one DL?

dlvh said:

Darth Lucas said:

On the Leia Artoo shot. It seems to me that the most accurate and in my opinion best looking correction is somewhere in between neutral and green. With the green only peeking through in the darker areas. That’s also consistent with film of the time, which we’ve found often turns shadows green.

On another note. These discussions of what “the correct color” for certain scenes seems to pop up every time there’s any kind of color correction project. It’s popped up in my thread, towne32’s thread, here, harmy’s, etc. Even in cases where it’s not exactly relevant. Is there currently a thread where the accurate 1977 color timing of Star Wars is the sole topic of conversation? If not, would we benefit from such a thread? Keeping it all in one place and all.

I’d like to see a thread on the '77 colors. Would you care to start one DL?

Looks like DrDre beat me to it:

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-theatrical-colors-of-the-Star-Wars-trilogy/id/53541

DrDre said:

towne32 said:

Interesting. But that looks incredibly mild compared to some of the other scans and corrections.

It’s low contrast like most laserdisc transfers, but it’s a pretty close match I think:

If you examine the tones of those walls in both those above images you will see the upper one from the 82 LaserDisc is a lot less green. It’s green but a lot less green. It exactly matches the color Corrections I’ve tried to do to the 35 mm sample I got from Williarob and the frames I’ve been able find of the Technicolor. Like I said it is green but it’s not as green as the samples we’ve been seeing. I would bet the 82 LaserDisc was taken from a print. It might be a crappy transfer but it might be the most accurate color representation of the original 1977 35 mm prints.

It’s a discovery that we need to reproduce in AviSynth so that everyone can start projects with the highlights recovered.

Moth3r said:

cough

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/523672

Is that what Nerevar is talking about though? If that sort of adjustment is all it takes, then it is indeed easy. I’ve been doing that in AviSynth for ages. But I imagined that the manipulation with curves that he was talking about was more involved.

Williarob said:
…all you need is the following levels adjustment in AVISynth…

It’s unlikely to be as straightforward as that (or it would have been spotted long ago). It might be the case that there is a little detail just outside the TV range that can be recovered with a subtle tweak to the levels.

EDIT: Apologies for the double-post!

Williarob said:
I agree, but what else can it be? If the white data can be recovered it has to have a value 255 or less, because the blu-rays are 8-bit RGB color.

That’s why I said outside of the TV range. Occasionally, there is information just outside of it that one can make a subtle adjustment to recover i.e. a smaller change in levels than that which takes place in the standard TV<->PC conversion.

Williarob said:

So the blu-rays were encoded RGB Full, rather than RGB limited?

As I understand it, TVs use a video range from 16-235. It considers levels below 16 to be black, and information above 235 is white. A calibrated TV will never display anything below 16 as anything other than black. Most will also treat everything over 235 as white since it should not exist in video content.

PCs are different and use a range from 0-255. There is no data below 0 or above 255 with an 8-bit video signal as there are only 256 possible values. In short, this is much simpler to understand as the TV concepts of Blacker-than-Black and Whiter-than-White do not exist.

Therefore to make the conversion between RGB Full (“PC Mode”) and RGB Limited (“TV Mode”) all you need is the following levels adjustment in AVISynth

// PC to TV ; scales a [0,255] clip to [16,235]:
Levels(0, 1, 255, 16, 235, coring=false)

Not exactly 😃,the encoded materials use a video range of 16-235 for luma and 16-240 for chroma.
If the input is yuv limited range every tv before the yuv-rgb conversion does a levels expansion from 16-235 to 0-255 for luma and 16-240 to 0-255 for chroma,so the tv can display true white and true black.
From what i understand the blurays were encoded in non-standard yuv limited range,so instead of 16-235 we have for example 16-242.The good is that the highlights aren’t really clipped.

So, given this “new” discovery, what are the chances that we could adjust the settings of the BluRay, and create a reasonable facsimile of what a Technicolor Version would/will look like? Or is the BluRay too far away from being usable as a reference?..given the fact that some have the Technicolor version already in-hand, is it even worth the effort?