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Warbler

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Join date
7-May-2003
Last activity
23-Oct-2017
Posts
23538

Post History

Post
#1120982
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

The point is that you think it’s getting worse and worse. Which is funny. Because black people would probably say what is getting worse and worse is the police killing them. But you know, protesting during the anthem is the real problem.

I think both are a problem. Obviously the wrongful killing of African Americans is a more serious problem. This does not mean that people protesting the anthem is not a problem.

It isn’t.

In your opinion.

Post
#1120981
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

Frank your Majesty said:

Warbler said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Then there is the closed loop, like in Harry Potter, which makes lots of sense, but allows for some paradoxes and negates free will. Also, alternate timelines can’t exist.

What paradoxes does it create?

Harry can cast the patronus because he saw himself casting a patronus. This breaks causality.

He saw himself doing it, and it gave him self confidence that he could do it. It is not that he can cast the patronus because he saw himself do it, it is that he can cast the patronus because he has the ability and knew he had the ability because he saw himself do it. I don’t see the problem.

Post
#1120980
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

darth_ender said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Because they have a time machine, not a universe-hopping machine. They’re stuck in a particular timeline, and if they create a divergent one, they get stuck in the new one until they can undo what caused the creation of the new one. If they had a portal gun like Rick from Rick and Morty, they could just say “Ah, fuck it, too much work” and hop back to the original timeline.

Think of it like train tracks. When they create a divergence, they create a switch on the tracks to a new railway, but they don’t have the tools to simply move the switch back to the original railway to get back to it. They have to dismantle the switch altogether, which means going back slightly further than the creation of the switch and preventing its creation.

Another fun thing to think about: they’re not even trying to go back to the original timeline, since Marty created a new one in BTTF1 when he went back to 1955 and got hit by the car instead of his dad. The timeline created in BTTF2 is actually the third timeline. They’re trying to get back to the second timeline. Which raises the ethical question of, what about the original timeline? Do that version of Marty’s parents think their son went missing/was kidnapped by Lybian nationalists? And what happened to the Marty from timeline 2, the one who remembers growing up with his “fixed” parents? When he went back, did he change something else and wind up coming back to a fourth timeline? Did he get stuck in 1955 while timeline 1 Marty got to go back to the future? Is there a timeline where two, or three, or four Martys show up on 1955 Doc’s doorstep?

none of that makes sense to me. It makes more sense if there is just one timeline that just gets altered over and over again.

Really? None of that makes sense to you? As in 0% of it makes sense to you? That was explained excellently.

His pattern indicates 1-dimensional thinking (in terms of time travel).

Post
#1120979
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Because they have a time machine, not a universe-hopping machine. They’re stuck in a particular timeline, and if they create a divergent one, they get stuck in the new one until they can undo what caused the creation of the new one. If they had a portal gun like Rick from Rick and Morty, they could just say “Ah, fuck it, too much work” and hop back to the original timeline.

Think of it like train tracks. When they create a divergence, they create a switch on the tracks to a new railway, but they don’t have the tools to simply move the switch back to the original railway to get back to it. They have to dismantle the switch altogether, which means going back slightly further than the creation of the switch and preventing its creation.

Another fun thing to think about: they’re not even trying to go back to the original timeline, since Marty created a new one in BTTF1 when he went back to 1955 and got hit by the car instead of his dad. The timeline created in BTTF2 is actually the third timeline. They’re trying to get back to the second timeline. Which raises the ethical question of, what about the original timeline? Do that version of Marty’s parents think their son went missing/was kidnapped by Lybian nationalists? And what happened to the Marty from timeline 2, the one who remembers growing up with his “fixed” parents? When he went back, did he change something else and wind up coming back to a fourth timeline? Did he get stuck in 1955 while timeline 1 Marty got to go back to the future? Is there a timeline where two, or three, or four Martys show up on 1955 Doc’s doorstep?

none of that makes sense to me. It makes more sense if there is just one timeline that just gets altered over and over again.

Really? None of that makes sense to you? As in 0% of it makes sense to you? That was explained excellently.

no matter how many times you say it, it doesn’t make sense that going back in time and changing history will suddenly create a new universe and now there are two when before there was just one.

Post
#1120978
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ChainsawAsh said:
But everything official about ST09 says that the Kelvin timeline is a separate entity that exists alongside the prime timeline, and it’s somewhat exasperating to me that you espouse strict adherence to official canon on the one hand while blatantly ignoring official canon in favor of your personal interpretation on the other (albeit for a different fictional universe).

LOL! This is so true.

*sigh*

Post
#1120977
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

If it doesn’t make sense to you, I don’t know how I can explain it in a more clear manner, so I’ll do my best to leave it alone.

I agree.

But everything official about ST09 says that the Kelvin timeline is a separate entity that exists alongside the prime timeline,

everything except, imho, ST09 itself. Sorry, but that is my honest interpretation of the events of the movie.

and it’s somewhat exasperating to me that you espouse strict adherence to official canon on the one hand while blatantly ignoring official canon in favor of your personal interpretation on the other (albeit for a different fictional universe).

It is my own interpretation of something(ST09) that is itself official canon. If everyone in charge of official canon said that Chekov and not Kirk was Captain of the Enterprise and yet you can clearly see from the tv series’ and movies that Kirk is the Captain, what would do? You would say the people, no matter how official they are, that are saying Chekov was Captain were wrong because you can clearly see from the movies and tv series’ that Kirk was the Captain.

But at this point I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere by continuing to discuss it.

I agree with you here.

Post
#1120896
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Because they have a time machine, not a universe-hopping machine. They’re stuck in a particular timeline, and if they create a divergent one, they get stuck in the new one until they can undo what caused the creation of the new one. If they had a portal gun like Rick from Rick and Morty, they could just say “Ah, fuck it, too much work” and hop back to the original timeline.

Think of it like train tracks. When they create a divergence, they create a switch on the tracks to a new railway, but they don’t have the tools to simply move the switch back to the original railway to get back to it. They have to dismantle the switch altogether, which means going back slightly further than the creation of the switch and preventing its creation.

Another fun thing to think about: they’re not even trying to go back to the original timeline, since Marty created a new one in BTTF1 when he went back to 1955 and got hit by the car instead of his dad. The timeline created in BTTF2 is actually the third timeline. They’re trying to get back to the second timeline. Which raises the ethical question of, what about the original timeline? Do that version of Marty’s parents think their son went missing/was kidnapped by Lybian nationalists? And what happened to the Marty from timeline 2, the one who remembers growing up with his “fixed” parents? When he went back, did he change something else and wind up coming back to a fourth timeline? Did he get stuck in 1955 while timeline 1 Marty got to go back to the future? Is there a timeline where two, or three, or four Martys show up on 1955 Doc’s doorstep?

none of that makes sense to me. It makes more sense if there is just one timeline that just gets altered over and over again.

Time travel is confusing and tough to write, man.

I agree.

Post
#1120889
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

Where pedophilia scandals being discovered back when she tore up the picture? I don’t remember the pedophilia scandal being all that big at that point in time.

Post
#1120880
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Again to me it just makes more sense that when you go make time and change history, you change the already existing timeline and replace it, not create another timeline and now there are two existing timelines.

Post
#1120874
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

bad example if you think I am wrong. In the bttf movies they kept screwing the timeline up and then had to fix it. They didn’t create an entire other universe, they altered the already existing one.

Post
#1120863
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

But if that was the intention, they would have said “he’s rewritten history” instead of “he’s created an alternate timeline,” no?

Yeah. They used “alternate” thinking everyone would get it. Evidently, somehow, at least one person did not.

*sigh*

Post
#1120862
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

But if that was the intention, they would have said “he’s rewritten history” instead of “he’s created an alternate timeline,” no?

maybe

Post
#1120857
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

TV’s Frink said:

The point is that you think it’s getting worse and worse. Which is funny. Because black people would probably say what is getting worse and worse is the police killing them. But you know, protesting during the anthem is the real problem.

I think both are a problem. Obviously the wrongful killing of African Americans is a more serious problem. This does not mean that people protesting the anthem is not a problem.

That said, I am not so sure that the cops wrongfully killing African Americans is happening as often as BLM would have you believe.

Post
#1120855
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

Official canon does Trump everything else. We just disagree on whether or not official canon says that the Kelvin timeline overwrites Prime Timeline. It comes down to interpretation of events of Star Trek (2009).

What do you think the words “alternate reality” mean and why do you think they would use those words if what you’re suggesting is true?

I thought it meant that that reality had been altered due the changed made in history. I thought it meant the reality of the Prime universe had been altered and it turned into the Kelvin universe.

Post
#1120854
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

That the Kelvin timeline is an alternate universe and doesn’t overwrite the prime timeline.

Official canon says it, the movie says it, Abrams and the writers say it, but you continue to assert that it’s not the case even while arguing that official canon trumps everything else in other cases.

All of this, plus you refuse to accept the possibility in general that time travel can create an alternate universe

I do that because the idea doesn’t make sense to me.

(which, might actually the most likely scenario, were time travel to actually exist).

It is? I disagree. I think if time travel were to actually exist, it would work like we see in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

I think that is also very possible. What certainly is not possible is that time travel would just overwrite an existing timeline, which is what you are suggesting.

I agree, but I think it more believable than changing history creates a whole other universe.

Post
#1120837
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

That the Kelvin timeline is an alternate universe and doesn’t overwrite the prime timeline.

Official canon says it, the movie says it, Abrams and the writers say it, but you continue to assert that it’s not the case even while arguing that official canon trumps everything else in other cases.

All of this, plus you refuse to accept the possibility in general that time travel can create an alternate universe

I do that because the idea doesn’t make sense to me.

(which, might actually the most likely scenario, were time travel to actually exist).

It is? I disagree. I think if time travel were to actually exist, it would work like we see in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

Post
#1120835
Topic
All Things Star Trek
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

That the Kelvin timeline is an alternate universe and doesn’t overwrite the prime timeline.

That is not fact, that is opinion.

Official canon says it,

That depends on how one interprets the events of Star Trek 2009, when it part of official canon.

the movie says it,

That depends on how one interprets the events of Star Trek 2009.

Abrams and the writers say it,

I will accept as fact that Abrams and the writers say it.

but you continue to assert that it’s not the case even while arguing that official canon trumps everything else in other cases.

Official canon does Trump everything else. We just disagree on whether or not official canon says that the Kelvin timeline overwrites Prime Timeline. It comes down to interpretation of events of Star Trek (2009).

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