PDB

Part 2

So I hear you pointing out the obvious. This was done from a video pointed at a 35mm showing. The white balance could be off. The exposure could be wrong. A hundred thing could be wrong. And you know what, that's right so let's look at show other sources.

So lets look at the 35mm frames Servo posted from ebay. 

Pretty dark blue bias. You could say its wrong since you are not looking at these through a theater projector with a correct bulb but they do look strangely close to the dark blue scenes from the video. Look at the pics I posted in 186. (Indecently, these strips say AFGA so they are more then likely from a European print)

Let look at some 35mm frames I found.

35/BD/Regrade

Again not perfect but much closer. 

Part 3, looking at the 8mm, a little later but look at post 186 and look at the 8mm (1st page) Terminator in the flames, the Sarah dream, the purple in the hallway in the 1st T-800 vs T-1000 battle

 Maybe it was kaosjm you were think about Servo?

Beber said:

The 35mm print I saw absolutely did NOT look like that, PDB.

 What is wrong about it Beber? Too blue, too purple? All wrong?

Part 1

Here is a little analysis of what I did. I took this frame from the video recording (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnEACdAr1rk):

Notice the blue bias, the purple highlights. I took that pic re-balanced it a bit and applied the colors to the BD to get this:

BD/Regrade

Which is a fairly close match. Got the blues, purple highlights. Jacket loses the green and tends towards black. From that regrade I built a LUT and applied it to the whole film, just to see what it would look like. Going off the video many scenes matched up or were closer:

Video

BD/Regrade

Notice in the video the roof section is redder, the minigun is black, the color of the brick, same as in the regrade using the one LUT from the one frame regrade.

Another desert shot:

Video

BD/Regrade

Again the regrade is closer. It doesn't have the orange shift. Let's shift to the night scenes. This is the most important part for me and why I looked at T2. I contend that the night/dark scenes in T2 has a large blue bias. Witness from the video, the aftermath of the copter chase:

Video

BD/Regrade

Hmmm. The BD has Arnold nature skin tones mix in there a bit which is wrong but has the right aqua blue highlights. The regrade blue is darker (too dark?) which is correct given the video but the highlights are all wrong.

Lets try another

Video/BD/Regrade

Regrade is closest. And more

Video/BD/Regrade

You get the point. Its never perfect but overall the regrade is much closer. I'd also like to point out that this scene is a bit yellower like it was discussed in the the beginning of the thread

BD/Regrade

Continued in Part 2

So I had a late night, last night and had to get my mind on something else. Lucky for me metall_havy had sent me some of his samples of T2 from this thread. Thanks metall_havy!

The most interesting video so far (haven't gone through them all yet) is the one he references in post 171. It was clearly derived from a 35mm print as he mentions. You can see the cues. I took that video which has a green tint and re-balanced it towards the blue in one scene. I was surprised to see it match up pretty close with the 35mm frames Servo posted, the stuff I posted (35mm and 8mm), some scenes in trailers and this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnEACdAr1rk

Combine that with what I saw in a 35mm print of True Lies (similar in color timing) and I think T2 is suppose to be significantly bluer then the BD. I ran a brief test at regrading to give it a look. This is 1 LUT for the whole movie and individual scenes would have their saturation, brightness, gamma and colors adjusted but I think it might be closer to what a 35mm print looks like.

BD/Test Regrade

Another pics from a cutter on ebay that probably has some red fade:

We can get a scan of a 35mm print of Raiders if people donate. Could put an end to the color/look debate.

Edit: sorry I missed your post litemkr, before posting

Servo posted a link to these pics a few post ago, I just wanted to add them to this thread:

Notice the level of blue tint. Also wanted to add these:

More blue and purple

DrDre said:

PDB said:

Those color matches look great Dr Dre. I'd love to use your program sometime if you ever release it for public consumption. Color matching is a laborious process.

Concerning the whole discussion of what Raiders really looks like. One of our members here tracked down a rare 1982 LPP of Raiders. There were only 200 made for the '82 re-release. It was mastered from the same 35mm materials as the 1981 prints only unlike the '81 prints there is no fading. As usual the only thing stopping us is the approximately $600 to $750 it costs to scan it. So would anyone be interested?

I will hopefully be able to share a standalone tool based on this method. I will keep you posted.

 That would be great. I'm sure the mechanics of the process are beyond my abilities but what is the input/output? Individual picture frames or video like AVI?

TServo2049 said:

PDB said:

Those color matches look great Dr Dre. I'd love to use your program sometime if you ever release it for public consumption. Color matching is a laborious process.

Concerning the whole discussion of what Raiders really looks like. One of our members here tracked down a rare 1982 LPP of Raiders. There were only 200 made for the '82 re-release. It was mastered from the same 35mm materials as the 1981 prints only unlike the '81 prints there is no fading. As usual the only thing stopping us is the approximately $600 to $750 it costs to scan it. So would anyone be interested?

You know I would be. As per usual, I'd be willing to put down some for this. Anybody else?

 I'm serious when I say you are quickly becoming the patron saint of 35mm projects Servo.

Those color matches look great Dr Dre. I’d love to use your program sometime if you ever release it for public consumption. Color matching is a laborious process.

That's hardcore!

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

UK BD is really ugly...

 Agreed. Looks like yours is the closest which is fine by me since that is the one I watch. Still curious to see what the Shout looks like. Especially to see if it has the slight blue tint of the 35mm, if the 35mm pic is to be trusted.

Snake Burton said:

I'll post later today

 Thanks Snake Burton. Here is what I have (may not be the same frame)

MGM DVD/MGM BD/spoRv BD/Shout BD/35mm frame/UK BD

(Updated with Snake's pic of the Shout BD)

captainsolo said:

The only thing I've worried about is the sound. The restoration was done and completed in Dolby surround which was the format of 1991. The DVD upped this to a discrete 5.1 but was the same otherwise. I don't know if this faithfully reproduced what the large format presentation would have so I assume they will redo it.

hopefully they stick with the gorgeous Saul Bass artwork Criterion utilized.

 Well from the HTF thread it sounds like they remixed the sound from 5 front, 1 surround to 3 front 4 surround and LFE (aka 7.1). So there is a change but I think Harris I think has learned from Vertigo and tries to be a faithful to the original as possible. The man is a saint to film fans.

Even if the original had DS it would of been mixed discretely first before running through a DS encoder.

3.  What about the sound?  Do we have 5.1 or something else?

7.1

So what does that mean?  The original surround was mono.   It's now 7.1.   So are they sending the mono to all four surrounds or has it been remixed?
 
And what did they do with LC and RC?
 
Thanks.

LC and RC are now phantom channels. They would be totally unnecessary in a home theater environment. 

Never got into the fight of which version is best. I still don't have the Scream version to compare. I do have the MGM but spoRv's version has always been my default. Regardless a 35mm print went up for sale recently (already sold) and although pictures of print can't be used as a definitely basis of what a movie looks like, its a bit of a clue. Here is what the pics looked like: 

Can anyone post pics from the scream to compare?

You probably can't just convert it to B&W and have that be the end since you can play around with contrast and brightness creating a wide range of different images. If anyone was going to try; here is the pic that the editor posted on his twitter account of what the B&W looks like:

DrDre said:

Sad to hear about the complications poita, but that scan looks really good. 

 Seconded

kaosjm said:

PDB: Everything at the top of post 158 where you graded the film to look like 35mm trailer is spot on. The film print I saw was very red and looked EXACTLY like that. I took a few notes but didn't pay too much attention to writing down a whole lot during the movie. Once I saw that the film matched what's in post 158 I stopped writing.

On a side note, the bass in that movie is absolutely insane! There were a few scenes that just hit me right in the gut. At the end when Ripley walks around in the mech armor the bass just screamed with each step she took. I don't have the DVD or BD of this movie to compare it to but I hope they sound that powerful.

I took a lot of pictures of the movie inside the theater and even some short clips from where I was sitting. I got as much as I could get away with but eventually my phone ran out of memory. I will upload those today and post them here.

edit: Here's a link to some reference material. I wish I could've gotten more but my phone ran out of memory.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B66l7Rza36IffjJ3SG1uaGVGZjBzcUFhcXNGcU5KTEZKMXM2eTRBcVA5Z0ZzX3Y5M2lrYVU&usp=sharing

Still working on answering some of your questions PDB I'll post back later.

 Thanks for the run down kaosjm. I would love to hear that 70mm 6 channel mix. Sounds amazing from the way you describe it.

Frankly, I'm surprised to hear you say it matched my initial 35mm regrade so well. I wouldn't of thought so since I used a trailer as the guide and not a 35mm film.

Thanks again for the pics and videos, That's very useful. Man I wish I could of seen that, especially in 70. Such a rare treat.

The Aluminum Falcon said:

Eager to hear your findings, kaosjm. 

 Same here

badgerstuta said:

 Stick me down for $100.  Anyone with a passing interest in seeing BTTF in it's best possible light should try and get involved.  Universal certainly aren't going to do the decent thing

PDB - any idea what kind of shape the print is in ?

 Thanks for the pledge badgerstuta but it looks like the opportunity to scan BTTF is not there anymore. A generous soul is going to keep looking for another print to scan but it looks we don't have enough donations anyway. Thanks again, that was generous of you.

jedimasterobiwan said:

PDB said:

badgerstuta said:

PDB said:

Well, I have good news. Still trying to get all the details but some of us might have found a 35mm print of BTTF to rent and have scanned. I'm posting this here to see if there is enough interest and money (more importantly money) to get this scanned. Probably all in it would be $900, maybe more, maybe less. So its not cheap but frankly its a very rare opportunity. 

If anyone thinks the can donate please let me know

(AMPS guys can view the post over there too)

 Would be happy to donate. The blu Ray is an abomination

 That's great bagerstuta!

I know a lot of people don't have the money but just giving $10 or $20 would go a long way to help.

 I hope you find a bttf 2 35mm print as well.

 Well if we can't get any movement and help on 1, there is no point to working on 2. People here expressed a desire to see a 35mm print scanned but from what I hear a 35mm print of BTTF in private hands is very rare. It took a lot of effort for someone to locate number 1. So if you want to see the original colors, framing, grain, etc, scanning an original print is the only way to do that.

 Jurassic Park was the first (Non-SW) scan to come out but there are a lot of other great films are being worked on right now. Problem is there is a small group paying out of their own pockets to see these films scanned. And its for purely altruistic reasons. They just want people to see the film they love, the way it was meant to look, the way it looked in the theater. Problem is there is only so much money to go around and it is drying up. No one here is rich.

So if you want to see BTTF please commit to donate. We are not asking for hundreds of dollars just $20 or hell even a bunch of people at $10 would help. Otherwise its not going to happen.

badgerstuta said:

PDB said:

Well, I have good news. Still trying to get all the details but some of us might have found a 35mm print of BTTF to rent and have scanned. I'm posting this here to see if there is enough interest and money (more importantly money) to get this scanned. Probably all in it would be $900, maybe more, maybe less. So its not cheap but frankly its a very rare opportunity. 

If anyone thinks the can donate please let me know

(AMPS guys can view the post over there too)

 Would be happy to donate. The blu Ray is an abomination

 That's great bagerstuta!

I know a lot of people don't have the money but just giving $10 or $20 would go a long way to help.

jedimasterobiwan said:

PDB said:

Well, I have good news. Still trying to get all the details but some of us might have found a 35mm print of BTTF to rent and have scanned. I'm posting this here to see if there is enough interest and money (more importantly money) to get this scanned. Probably all in it would be $900, maybe more, maybe less. So its not cheap but frankly its a very rare opportunity. 

If anyone thinks the can donate please let me know

(AMPS guys can view the post over there too)

 Any word on bttf 2 35mm print as well?

Looking for 2 also so there is the possibility. All depends of we can get people to donate. 

RoyBatty said:

So hype for this. From memory, the restoration looks damn good details wise, but it was really blue. 

Thanks for the work PDB! 

 Thanks still plugging away

Well, I have good news. Still trying to get all the details but some of us might have found a 35mm print of BTTF to rent and have scanned. I’m posting this here to see if there is enough interest and money (more importantly money) to get this scanned. Probably all in it would be $900, maybe more, maybe less. So its not cheap but frankly its a very rare opportunity.

If anyone thinks the can donate please let me know

Can you send some my way? All the ones on subscene don't work.

kaosjm said:

No problem PDB. I can make note of all your questions and jot down observations like I did with 2001 last month. Looking at your film examples of Aliens I am very much reminded of how the T2 35mm looked. It's almost like Aliens and T2 were color timed at the same time (obviously they weren't though).

 Much appreciated!

There is a common thread there with the colors. Not unreasonable given directors like to use certain looks. The BD is not a perfect match to the 8mm/35mm but its much closer then any other video master before it. Sigh, I want a 35mm print of Aliens.

Back to what you were talking about earlier Alien vs Aliens. Younger, I always went for Aliens but nowadays, I'm not sure. I think I appreciate Alien more now that I'm older.

Agreed with everyone, can't wait to see the results