zombie84

This is an obvious question...

...but do we know that the 16mm version Puggo transfered has the same subs as the 35mm version? I assume they just did a straight dupe from the 35mm source, but since this was actually made for commercial sale and was re-edited, there is always the distant possibility that they re-burned the subs for this version, just as they did for the VHS versions. Was Puggo's 16mm dupe ever checked against the 1977 telecine bootleg? I just assume someone did, but I never actually saw this mentioned anywhere.

I would assume they would base it on the most elaborate (the 70mm, with surrounds and baby booms), but really who knows. I don't think they would have changed their minds if they saw it in mono or 70mm though, so perhaps the question is moot...

Fett knew Luke was tailing them so he fired a few shots to keep at bay. He also might have been deliberately leading him to the carbon chamber (it's quite a coincidence that Luke just happened to step on that platform), but wanted to make sure Luke didn't get too close.

msycamore said:

zombie84 said:

The improvements aren't necessary but they aren't unnecessary either IMO. The way I see is that it's just different flourishes and accents but the song remains the same. Burtt used to say that because a lot of the mix was actually done "live", each time they did a pass it was its own performance, and that's sort of the attitude I take towards the mono vs stereo. It's like when you see a band perform live, each concert you go to the songs will be technically different than the last time and with little improvs and modifications and even some mistakes, and some you like and others you miss from last time.

That is what is said everytime the film is changed basically. And I can appreciate that, if we always have an alternative. (in this case the mono mix have ironically been restored by a fan;) that's one of the reason why I went to see it in the cinema '97. Don't take this wrong, I love the mono mix of SW and I appreciate a well made mono mix far more than a flashy modern made 5.1 mix made for just the sake of it as many films are made today. I just think it wasn't necessary when I compare it with the stereo mix. IMO. it was already perfect.

I think it's scary when movie enthusiast are very concerned about authentic color-timing, picture-quality etc. and forget that the sound of the film is half of the experience. Just look at every blu-ray on the market today and you can count the original mixes that went with them on one hand, compare that with regular music CD's. You would have an uproar if it were the same.

Very true, although I'm not sure how that relates to the mono-stereo mix issue since they are both original sound mixes from the original theatrical release and are therefore equally important from the standpoint of posterity.

Hairy_Hen--this is a really amazing piece of work. People tend to ignore audio or accept lesser of it because it seems less "tangible" than images, especially with the iPod generation that has accustomed people to low-quality audio while high-def picture is all the rage, but I'm glad there are a few audiophiles to match all the videophiles around here. This is the most interesting project since the mono mix restoration and I hope now that people will stop including GOUT and 2004 mixes on all future releases. I'm still downloading the files, but good work in principle! :p

Anyway--as much as the prospect of watching the film with the 2004 audio horrifies me, image-wise this project does sound very interesting and worthwhile.  Can anyone verify that it has the same frame count as the GOUT?  If it does, then any GOUT-synched soundtrack could be used instead for those sufficiently motivated to re-mux it themselves.  I do think the stereo and 70mm mixes got it much more right than the mono version in terms of balance, but the mono is at least a '77 authentic and still worthwhile.

 The running time is 2:01:00.

I don't know if that's exactly what the GOUT is, but I would love for someone to add the stereo mix and replace the 5.1 with your 70mm recreation. What's funny is the disk is only 6.7GB, so ED could have included at least the 2.0 from the GOUT itself, no idea why it was decided to leave it out. You could probably include every single sound mix plus the 5.1, actually. Maybe someone will do a re-author...

The improvements aren't necessary but they aren't unnecessary either IMO. The way I see is that it's just different flourishes and accents but the song remains the same. Burtt used to say that because a lot of the mix was actually done "live", each time they did a pass it was its own performance, and that's sort of the attitude I take towards the mono vs stereo. It's like when you see a band perform live, each concert you go to the songs will be technically different than the last time and with little improvs and modifications and even some mistakes, and some you like and others you miss from last time. If I had my pick I'd go with the stereo mix but I have the strong suspicion that it is purely because that's the only version I knew until about 4 years ago, so it's weird to me when stormtroopers have slightly different voices and there's sound effects where there weren't any before. Also, the recording quality of the mono version is obviously not as good as modern official remasters of the higher-fidelity stereo, so I think it creates an unfair advantage for the stereo mix as it is aesthetically more pleasing to the ear.  

ChainsawAsh said:

So, does the 5.1 mix, having been sourced from the 2004 mix, have the same surround-channel music swapping issues?

Don't quote me on this but I believe the answer is no. The missing music on the X-wing divebomb is definitely there.

My point was that pre-video changes that aren't officially catalogued have to go by memory, and in almost every instance where someone has sworn that they remember something being different 30 years ago as a kid, there has never been any evidence come out that such is the case.

There's a bootleg from 1977 you could check out though. It was filmed from a projection room IIRC. The detail is pretty crappy because of its age, but you might be able to confirm the existance or non-existance of this detail that way.

Ripplin said:

I would listen in mono, though I must say I prefer Beru's voice as I grew up with it. (non-mono mix, that is) She sounds a bit more expressive to me. The mono actress sounds a bit more...calm? I dunno, hard to describe. I'd like to hear the on-set audio someday to hear what her real voice is. Has anyone heard that?

 People tend to assume that the mono is her real voice, but the mono is clearly dubbed. The on-set audio has never surfaced AFAIK.

TV's Frink said:

zombie84 said:

Also, this is dual layered which means there is no compression artifacting, whereas you get the occassional artifacts in DVD-5s. The one area where this version falls behind others is in having little to no anti-aliasing work done, although I don't think the anti-aliasing filters on the other projects ever completely solved the matter. The other ones have the stereo mix AFAIK, which I enjoy the most and miss here.

Dark_Jedi's GOUT restoration is also a DVD-9 and has 5.1.

 Ah, cool! I know the LFL Pwnge version was a DVD-5 and had some very subtle compression artifacting in certain shots.

The extras say it was done in Pro Tools, but people here do the same quality and quantity of work using less professional means. Basically, it's the 2004 5.1 with some custom patches and transitions to make it conform to the GOUT. It doesn't sound like the film did when it came out, obviously, but it's decent IMO, although I haven't actually listened to it full 5.1. Purists will obviously complain about the levels of the 2004 mix, but I don't think it's as bad as they say since most home video mixes have a lot of the same problems with too much low end and bad dynamic range, etc.

The video is NTSC, so if your PS3 can handle NTSC then I guess it will work.

As for "Is it better than DarkJedi's GOUT restoration?" That depends on your tastes. This version has more detail, but also more grain. I like grain, and I felt that some of the AVISynth attempts maybe took out too much (except LFL Pwnage, which maybe could have even gone a little further), and I also like that the colors don't pop as much as there is less saturation (I actually thought the GOUT had the best color levels, but I would prefer less rather than more, as IMO ANH always had a more pastel color scheme). Also, this is dual layered which means there is no compression artifacting, whereas you get the occassional artifacts in DVD-5s. The one area where this version falls behind others is in having little to no anti-aliasing work done, although I don't think the anti-aliasing filters on the other projects ever completely solved the matter. The other ones have the stereo mix AFAIK, which I enjoy the most and miss here. The subtitles for Greedo on this one are technically less accurate in font (going off Puggo's versions anyway) but more pleasing to the eye IMO. So its a bit up to individual preference. 

I'm doing a test seed because its my first torrent and I just want to make sure it's all good before I give away too much. I really don't know what I'm doing here. :p

(Moth3r--yes, it's an ISO).

Since the last time you saw it was before it was out on video, I am guessing you are just remembering it differently than it was. Seriously, I've seen a million examples of this. That's my take on it anyway. You may have seen the film a billion times, but you probably only saw it a few times before it was on video, and that was 30 years ago. Since, I was born after the film was already on video, I can't offer any confirmation or denial here, but then again, if you can find someone old enough to have seen the film in its original runs I doubt they would have noticed such an obscure detail in the first place and actually remember it even if they had.

The Ewoks are a big part of it, but there's much more to it than that. The plot is tired--another Death Star, another space battle and escaping a chain reaction, another stolen plan, and another cantina with more puppets. The dialog isn't as good as Empire either, and the character relationships are uninteresting, especially Han who goes through the motions and Leia who doesn't do a whole lot. Also, Leia being Luke's brother is infinitely stupid. Add in the Ewoks taking up almost 1/3 of the film and you've got a disappointment. It just doesn't have the originality and sense of urgency the other two did.

However, there's lots to love about the film. The Jabba sequence is fun, and the sail barge battle is right out of an Errol Flynn movie and is one of the most entertaining action scenes in the trilogy. The visual effects are jaw-dropping, probably the peak of pre-digital technology IMO, and of course you have a great John Williams score. But its just great to have the characters together again. You grow to love them over the past two films and its a small treat just to see them as an ensemble again, even if they are only briefly together. The Emperor adds a new twist to things, but the real standout is Luke Skywalker's story. Its very, very compelling stuff, especially with Vader, where they mainly talk instead of fight, which was much more interesting in some ways, and Mark Hamill really carries the film.

All in all, it's easy to see why people like this film the least. But that doesn't mean it's not likeable. It's frustrating that it wasn't as good as the others but they set the bar so high that this is still better than a lot of movies even when its the disappointment of the trilogy, and is a worthy piece of entertainment.

I don't know why the OS got rid of their changes page, but I'm very glad you saved it. Good job!

Its also possible to roto around some of the additions, like the rontos. Adywan did this with the most major, most invasive enhancement--the foreground ronto during the "these aren't the droids you're looking for anymore." I think Adywan said it was the hardest thing he had to do to de-SE the film. There's a lot of background rontos that would be more easily rotoscoped out using a GOUT comp that should be about as noticeable as the cloud city rotos in ESB. The hard parts are restoring the OOT-only shots, like the entry into Mos Eisley, the establishing shot of Ben's hovel, and the original X-wing shots. The quality would probably be noticeable. Then there are other shots like the establishing shot of the moisture farm, which might be left as the SE enhancement since it's so minor, or perhaps cropped to the original framing, although you could roto out the extra vaporators if you were feeling ambitious.

It would be possible to do ANH in the same as ESB, it would just be a hell of a lot more work. But one of my main problems is that the contrast and sharpness would still be there. ANH was photographed gauzy, and I think it would just look weird if you put a soft filter on in photoshop. ESB you get away with the SE sharpness because the sharpening was very minor, and it was always contrasty too, but ANH is a different beast altogether. I would be more interested in finding some way to use the GOUT and somehow layer in detail levels from the SE using photoshop or something, but I'm not sure if this is even possible. I know X/0 was doing something similar using Black Magic.

Judge said:

One problem with doing ANH would be the censorship. A lot of the laser flashes on characters were removed for the 1997 SEs, so Adywan would have to meticulously recreate these flashes or insert frames from the GOUT - which would be a painstaking process which probably wouldn't give satisfactory results.

He already restored those on ANH Revisited and it's only in two shots. Probably by creating a plate from the SE and comping in the extra few frames of the officer from the GOUT, because there definitely isn't any quality difference that I can see between the censored frames and the SE frames. Goes to show that more is possible than you frist realize. :D

Yeah, the video telecine is really pink shifted, it looks awful sometimes.

I guess the 1997 IP would offer better results than the 1985 IP. But then to scan two different IPs, digitally edit them together, and also try to get the footage to match--its a lot of work. You might as well just scan the separation masters, which will look better. It's basically the same amount of work.

My feeling is that Lucasfilm will do the least amount of work possible (i.e. just scan one source and say here it is, i.e. the IP or a print), or they will go all out and go back to the negs. If they are going to start scanning multiple 35mm sources and editing them together it would probably be the same as if they had gone to the negs or the separations.

It would be the 1997 SE though, what is the point of that? Unless you want the 1997 SE, I guess.

Here are the real options:

1) Negative re-construction. Most expensive, but highest quality. Would require some clean up, and a lot of digital stitching unless you did it physically (which is more work and more risk).

2) Seperation masters. Almost as high quality, but requires 3 seperate scans and a digital composite of the 3 layers. But wouldn't require any clean up.

3) Interpositive (probably the 1985 home video version is the best available). Quality is good, but would require clean up.

4) Fine grain masters or Technicolor prints. Quality is presentable, would likely require little if any clean up.

Option 1 would probably cost a few million dollars for the whole trilogy. Option 2, probably 1/4 of that. Option 3 would cost up to a million for the trilogy if you start doing heavier restoration/clean up, option 4 a couple hundred grand. Take your pick. All of these options are relatively easy, the material is all there and its all in decent shape.

doubleofive said:

I've been waiting for a Zombie84 thread. I was trying to make my own media sighting by convincing my local library to buy a copy of Secret History a couple months ago, and this is what I got back:



I figured they wouldn't find one, but they claim they found one at another library and couldn't get them to let them borrow it. I thought that was crazy.

 Ha, interesting. Appreciate the effort though! :)

If they have access to university libraries then Clemson University for sure has one. Apparently they don't do public loans?

The Terminator DVD came with a 5.1 mix with new sound effects, as well as the original mono which I am very thankful for. The newer Superman set also contained the 5.1 "enhanced" soundtrack from 2000, as well as the original mono and stereo mixes. Mad Max Special Edition included the australian as well as American voice recordings. Just offhand.

See, Adywan's ESB release is only a week old and I'm already plugging it! :p

The sabers in the cave scene are terrific. They look like they should. The cores are white and the colors very vibrant. The only time there is some dullness that I noticed is in a couple shots in the carbon freezing chamber duel (the tones are also inconsistent on Vader--orange, red, rosey--but I think this is in the original composite).

Actually, the issue I have more than anything is the color correction. Well, the image characteristics, anyway. The colors are fantastic. Hoth is white, but I'm glad to see that there is some blue in there, because there should be a tiny bit of blue in some of the shadows in certain scenes as far as I can tell, same with some of the Bespin duel. The issue really is one of contrast. The image is way too punchy. It looks like its the 2004 DI with balanced colors but nothing else. Usually it looks quite nice and makes the image seem sharper, but the black levels gobble up detail, the contrast is about 10-20% higher than it should be, and certain scenes have strange balances, for instance Dagobah seems to be a lot brighter (and blue/green-er, compared with the GOUT, which I still hold as the most reliable color reference; strangely some scenes here looks LESS contrasty than the GOUT). I'm being extremely nitpicky here, of course--this transfer is so good that any complaints have to be! If there ever is a 2.0 version of this done, it would be nice to have the midrange a tad brighter in most scenes to reflect the original photography. ESB was always the most contrasty in its lighting, but it was never quite this extreme. The saturation is also about 10-15% too hot, as usual with the 2004 balances.

Anyway, hate to complain, because like I said this was the most fun I have ever had watching ESB in as long as I can remember. There is a shot on Cloud City where Han and the gang are walking away from the camera towards an orange glass wall, just after they arrive, and I know Adywan you must have rotoscoped around the actors and dropped in the original orange wall, but for the life of me I can't see any of the seams. Its flawless. Bravo.

As far as I can tell, these are the things in the film that are still "altered":

-Hoth speeder recomps in all the scenes they are in, including Imperial Walker fight

-Imperial fleet introduction has recomposited elements

-Any asteroid chase recomps

-Falcon cockpit croping

-Han's shirt during the carbon freezing

I think there is one or two shots of the Falcon approaching Cloud City that have been recomposited for the SE (such as when it passes through a cloud) that remain as recomps. So really, aside from recomps, which might be best to leave as they are in the SE, Han's shirt is the only actual live-action alteration/addition that remains. If Adywan takes a second pass at this, I hope he gets rid of this one thing (adding in the shadow area should be easy, since there is little detail). Also, there is a shot or two in the duel where Vader's lightsaber core is still dulled down ("Your destiny lies with me Skywalker" shots in particular), if you want to count that.

There were also a few weird things I noticed--scratches in the recomped GOUT area. The GOUT shot of the wampa fur moving in particular has a lot of grain and dirt that is visible, I'm guessing this was left so as not to erase the detail on the fur (the previous GOUT shot of the shadow on the wall looks clean, but only because the white walls hide all the detail scrubbed away), and there is a shot of Lando and Leia running through a corridor where a hole/scratch appears in one frame in the recomped wall section, which stood out to me. Just pointing it out, for what it's worth. The other recomps are fine, although the establishing shot with the cloud car looks like it has some wobbly rotoscoping on the car at the head of the shot, must have been a pain to track it in.

Anyway, always feel guilty nitpicking this. You've done some fine work here Adywan!