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zombie84

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21-Nov-2005
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12-Jan-2024
Posts
3,557

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Post
#247164
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247164/action/topic#247164
Time
I thought TTT was the best of the bunch. But anyway. I agree that FOTR captures Tolkien the best and is a nice successor to the "whimsical fantasy adventure" genre that Star Wars is part of. In fact, other than Wizard of Oz there really isn't any other significant entries in it.
I think this also i more like TPM should have been. Its innocent and whimsical, but also serious and very character-centred in a dramatic and realistic way. Lucas has tried to bring out every excuse he can--people didn't want a light story, people didn't want a kid to be the main character, people wanted to see Darth Vader being the Terminator and killing everyone. The truth is that is all bullshit. We wanted a good movie and Lucas didn't deliver. FOTR is very similar in tone to what Lucas was trying to do with TPM, sort of a lesson in "here is how to do a fantasy film wrong--show TPM--and here is how to do a fantasy film right--show FOTR". The difference between the two is very dramatic when you watch them back to back and the difference is one is compelling and one is not-so-compelling.
Post
#247145
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247145/action/topic#247145
Time
Yes, there are som dodgy shots in LOTR. This doesn't surprise me seeing as WETA was relatively new to the whole game and the fact that LOTR--especially the first film--did not have nearly as big a budget as Lucas. But yeah, there are a few really poor shots. Gollum however, i always felt looked real--the texture of his skin, the way you could see veins under the flesh, and most importantly his face: i remember the first time looking at his eyes and remembering that he wasn't real and being really creeped out because it was one of those "looking into the soul" moments that was totally artificial. It amazed me. I think Gollum was what Lucas wanted Jar Jar to be, this incredible creation that was real and loveable and that everyone was talking about in amazement. As it stands Jar Jar was a sometimes-impressive technical achievement that benefited the film in pretty much no way at all.
And i think the main thing that Jackson achieved is that he achieved suspension of disbelief. You know that the Tatooine matte painting is not completely photorealistic in ANH but you never get pulled out of the moment because you are emotionally engaged in the film. The PT always seemed more jarring because we never properly connected to the characters or plot.
Post
#247141
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247141/action/topic#247141
Time
The Kodak Eastman format of 35mm film overtook the technicolour process because it was very cheap and quick, with relatively good results--relatively speaking, of course. The technicolour film process literally uses layers of dye to produce the resultant image (to put it simply, of course, though it is more complicated than this); Kodak stock uses chemicals, and of course the life of a chemical agent is much less compared to the life of a dye-soaked film strip.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Star Wars restoration process began with a 10-bit RGB high-definition scan of the original negatives. [...]
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I'm not very familiar with film restoration, so can anyone please explain why 24/32 bit scans aren't used for this?"


Each channle gets 10-bits each, so you end up with 30-bit colour space. This is (or was, i should say) the limit of digital video technology. 12 bit technology is now common.
Post
#246717
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246717/action/topic#246717
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Yeah thanks Zombie, that was a concise informative read. I tried to get involved as much as I could over at TFN but between that one thread becomeing white noise after a while and the mods arbitrarily banning anyone who said anything that someone might not want to hear (on both sides of the debate) made it rather difficult to follow.

That's part of the reason I came here, seeking out an adult forum that isn't run by kids.


Yeah the modding there can be pretty aggrevating sometimes. OMG U guyz R off topik!!1! Delete Post, Ban, Delete Post, Ban, Delete Post Ban

Anyway, regarding what needs to be scanned for a complete OOT O-neg DI--yeah, its not that difficult. There are a number of ways a high quality OOT scan could be accomplished:

1) Raw scan of a reference print. Lucasfilm has 'em, and although a bit rough because of their age, they are maintained in relatively good condition. Just a normal 35mm release print. A bit of tweaking would bring out the colours and contrast and the most basic off-the-shelf filters would easily eliminate much of the scratches and dirt. From this we could even do our own frame-by-frame restoration if we do desired.

2) Raw scan of an IP. Even better than a release print, Lucasfilm has at least one IP, the best culprit probably being the 1985 IP made for the home video releases, though by now this would be getting a bit banged up. Again, some tweaking and modern software would spruce this thing up in a few hours. I know the SE had a few segments taken from an IP, so at least one of them--and undoubtedly the one in best condition--would have frames and probably whole shots missing from it. This would require some filling in.

3) Raw scan of Lucas' Technicolour print. IMO this would represent a better source than an IP--it would be less grainey, practically free of any scratches and marks since it hasn't been used much (if at all) and have all the colour information intact. A quick scan of this and we would have the best version of the OOT that anyone has ever seen, frankly.

4) A 4K DI of the Technicolour seperation masters. These I am not sure if they are Lucas' personal collection or in the LFL Archives--perhaps they are the same thing. Scanning each of the seperation masters and then making a Digital Intermediate of them would IMO represent the best possible version of the OOT, practically at IP resolution since they are struck directly from the IP (or IN?), with pretty much perfect colour fidelity and practically no dupe grain. They would undoubtedly be free of any kind of scratches since as far as i know they have never even been used.

5) Scan taken from the O-neg. This presents quite a few problems.
The first method of doing this would be to re-construct the original negative. This would be done by finding the original pieces from the archives and re-inserting them into the reel, removing the SE pieces. This would require a bit of effort and care however, and I'm not sure how comfortable Lucas would be with "destroying", as he put it, the SE. In any case after the scan the SE could be re-assembled.
The second method would be to use the scans already done for 2004. This would mean that the original pieces from storage would be scanned in HD and then edited into the 2004 HD telecine of the 1997 SE O-neg. This would require a bit of effort to match frames and ensure that the shots transition correctly. It also would be debateable if the SFX shots that were re-comped for the SE should be re-scanned, in which case there is probably over a half hour of original footage to be scanned. Another problem would result from this--because we would be working from the initial 2004 scan of the 1997 SE O-neg, Lowry's clean-up would be lost. No big deal. The 1997 SE looked fantastic in terms of clarity. A bigger issue is this--because it is from the O-neg, the colour-timing again would be lost. I'm sure that the original printer light setting records don't exist, otherwise YCM would not need to rely so heavily on the Technicolour print to match colour, although this is debatable. In any event, the film is now scanned into a DI enviornment, so everything would have to be re-done by eye anyway. To me, this is a huge issue, as the proper image settings of the 1977 original are very distinct and almost never have been gotten right. I'm sure a colour-timer could get the film to look pretty close but there undoubtedly would be nit picky things that would be inaccurate that would just drive some of us mad, especially since this would be the last OOT-scan for many, many years (possibly until 2K resolution home theater is around). Using the Technicolour print that YCM worked off would be needed to ensure accuracy. By now however, this process is getting quite complicated, which normally would be par for the course in a classic film restoration but with Lucasfilm's attitude its unlikely that they would put so much effort into this.

I also don't think that LFL scanned all the original pieces for the 1997 SE--some of them they did, ie all the shots that had CGI enhancements, but a lot of it was simply the scanning of the on-set plates and the raw bluescreen model shots, so the actual original composite O-neg's were simply put away.
Post
#246670
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246670/action/topic#246670
Time
CO--thanks for being able to say those things so i don't have to. I'm very tired today. Great post though. Thats the most logical and objective anaylsis of why the PT, as a whole, doesn't completely satisfy. That doesn't mean "it sucks" or "its crap" before any SE lover get offended, because I'll admit that there are parts of the PT that are fairly well done and that I enjoy. But overall, for the reasons CO posted, the I-VI saga doesn't work. And its no surprise--to try to form a new movies series by using twenty-year-old films as a basis and retroacitively joining prequels to them to consolidate the newly created story...its just such an impossible thing to do. You can't make films that weren't designed to tell a particular story tell a particular story.
Post
#246662
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246662/action/topic#246662
Time
Okay to end all the debate about what prints exist and what went on with the SE:

-Because the original 1976/1977 negatives were beginning to deteriorate, a fairly exhaustive restoration was needed to save them. The problem with Kodak Eastman 35mm negative stock is that it does not live long--the colours and tones are never as vibrant or true as what is actually photographed, and whats worse the stock fades away and deteriorates over time...much more rapidly than people first realised. In fact certain shots had faded so much that they had "gone pink"--i believe the technical terminalogy for this may be a yellow layer failure, although i am not certain. In order to get the shades correctly certain pieces had to be duplicated and then re-timed to eliminate the pink tint. The corrected pieces were then re-inserted into the O-neg reel, replacing the deteriorated originals. Other shots had gone so bad that they couldn't be re-timed and instead had to be replaced with frames from an Interpositive print. The footage was all cleaned and washed by hand--in fact many of the tatooine shots had sand built into the film!
-Once the final reel had been restored SFX shots were re-composited into the computer. To do this they scanned the original elements--the raw bluescreen model shots and the on-set plates, both of which were kept in Lucasfilm's extensive archive, at 2K resolution (the maximum technology allowed at the time). Compositing digitally eliminates matte lines and dupe grain from the optical composite process. Transition shots--wipes, dissolves--were also redone digitially. The crawl was redone digitally as well, as far as i know. After all these changes were done they were printed back onto 35mm negative film and re-spliced into the O-neg reel, replacing the original pieces
-then there were shots that were enhanced with CG. To do this the original negatives were scanned at 2K res and then ILM did their thing. The final CGI-enhanced shots were then printed back out onto 35mm negative film and the pieces re-spliced into the O-neg reel, replacing the original shots
-then there were the totally new shots. Some of these involved filming new elements (ie more extras, sandtroopers, new model shot of sandcrawler) in which case the film was probably scanned for some touch-ups but most were created digitally. The finished shots were then printed back onto 35mm negative film and inserted into the O-neg reel
-finally, since the O-neg shots are litterally the raw footage filmed from the camera, they need to be colour timed. In order to faithfully re-produce the original colours, George Lucas gave YCM Labs, the lab that did the restoration, a perfect technicolor print of the 1977 original. Unlike Eastman Kodak, Technicolor does not fade away over time, and not only that it has superior tone and colour information as well as much less grain. It also came to light that Lucas had technicolour seperation masters made for him in 1977 as well.
-Finally, the colour-timed O-neg reel was printed into a new Interpositive. Hence the 1997 SE is born.

You can see what happened here--little by little, the original film was consumed by new pieces. This is what Lucas meant when he said "its impossible to make a new OOT, the negative doesn't exist." Well, technically, it doesn't. You may also be wondering what happened to the original pieces that were replaced: well, me too. Undoubtedly, they were put back into storage, although the pieces that had deteriorated to garbage may have indeed been destroyed.

But we're not done here. Because an equally important process occured, probably in early 2004 for the S-SE (or whatever you want to call it).

So now we have the new O-neg configuration. But Lucas wants to change it again.
-So, the O-neg is scanned--but in HD resolution. And the O-neg of course is now the 1997 SE
-Because the O-neg is scanned and not the re-timed 1997 IP that means that all the colour-timing information is lost. So the film must be re-timed, now in a DI environment. Because Lucas is linking the films up to the prequels a very different look is decided upon--very constrasty and "modern", which particularly is different for ANH and ROTJ which were very softly lit originally. Apparently Lucas approved the final colur-timings personally
-from here the O-neg is altered in the digital environment once again, but unlike the 1997 version now the entire thing is digitized. The additions are made: gungans, ESB McDiarmid, Hayden, etc.
-then Lowry gets a hold of it. My understanding is that they were the last of the line but it seems to me that a more logical workflow would be to have ILM work from the cleaned-up Lowry files. But as far as i remember, ILM did their alterations before. Then the HD files are given over to Lowry. Lowry uses its clean-up algorithim to remove thousands of bits of dirt and grain through computer-controlled software. Some sharpening filters were also used to bring out detail in certain areas deemed soft.
-From here an digital HD master is finally produced of the final product. Thus is borne the 2004 S-SE. The films are now existing purely as data, and from this data the DVD down-conversions are made.

I am going to point out the obvious here--the 2004 S-SE is only HD res. Apparently Lucas must think this is okay since thats what he filmed his prequels in but for anyone who loves the SE this is a major bummer.

I hope this clears up any confusion regarding the SE. This info comes courtesy of many articles and interviews from various sources. Go Mer I can't believe you are still asking about this--i know for sure i have explained this in the lengthy TFN thread at least ten times.

As for Lucas, yes, he did actually say that the original negative was destroyed--this is a twisted exageration based on the fact that the 1977 O-neg technically has been annhilated, but not in the sense that it has been chucked into a furnace, which is what he is trying to get people to think. It could easily be re-constructed, or, even cheaper and downright better IMO, simply use the Technicolour seperation masters to make a new DI--a perfect copy of a pefect IP. Nor would any of this be expensive, relatively speaking, and a DI of the seperation masters would probably run about $100,000 or so, which is absolutely peanuts for LFL.
Post
#246393
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246393/action/topic#246393
Time
I think its ultimately the way the character is concieved and directed. I mean Gollum looks utterly realistic and his performance is one of the best in the entire LOTR trilogy, which itself is brimming with fine performances. Ultimately it comes down to how you use it. Watto was very well done. I wouldnt want any of those two characters done by puppets or stop motion or suites or anything. Ultimately the bottom line is that most of the CGI characters weren't used properly by Lucas.
Post
#246383
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246383/action/topic#246383
Time
The fact that the O-neg no longer conforms to the original 1977 version of Star Wars is a technicality that Lucasfilm has been twisting into confusing people that "the original version doesn't exist anymore" as in "the original version has been destroyed and is not coming back" which is clearly absurd. Aside from the fact that an O-neg scan is by no means the only source of a high-res telecine (in fact only rarely is the O-neg used for releases), various private collectors and public institutions have undertaken preservation efforts, and it has been well documented as well that not only are the original negatives and interpositives still preserved in the LFL archives, but that Lucas himself personally owns specially-made high quality prints, and even lent these to the laboratories who restored the SE as reference guides.

Why didn't they make a new transfer for this release? Because they didn't have to. As can be seen--and the dvds are currently in Amazon.com's top ten sales--they could get just as much money from us by not spending a cent. This way we buy both these and the eventually-released restored versions. Obviously this has nothing to do with personal preference or artistic vision of Lucas, otherwise he would not be releasing them. And besides that, the whole thing was schemed up by Jim Ward, not Lucas himself, who isn't usually too involved with his companies sales. Its simply about getting money from people. 2001 was the first year of Lucasfilm dvd and they had TPM. 2002 had AOTC. 2003 had Indy trilogy. 2004 had the SE. 2005 had another release of teh SE which didn't do too good but it was okay because they also had ROTS. Now they need something else so they throw a LD transfer of the OOT and they have another huge dvd sale. Next year will have the saga box set, which i feel probably wont sell very well unless they include the OOT in a restored form.
Post
#246339
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246339/action/topic#246339
Time
Originally posted by: Mike O
Not be nitpciky, but Lucas was also probably not going for a SPR feel. He needs his PG rating, remember.


I know he was going for that feel, and considernig that there was no practical unit photography involved his results are quite impressive. But had he brought a small crew to a beach in the Phillippines or whatever, he could have had SPR results. You don't need to have gore--as the final ROTS shows.

Some people can't tell the difference between Battle of Kashyyk and SPR but then people spent millions of dollars at the box office to see Gigli so what do they know.
Post
#246330
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246330/action/topic#246330
Time
Thats why the PT gets so much criticism for being "fake" and "artificial" and "CGI-happy". A lot of the actual objects and environments are practical elements and models but it doesn't make a difference. The same with all the plates. Most of the BG's and textures are based off real photographed plates but it doesnt seem to have made a difference since there is still an artificiality to it. The reason why all these methods are used instead of actually filming them is purely cost savings. Its a $250 million movie made for $115 million. The battle of Kashyyk looks like a freaking video game compared to Saving Private Ryan and there was nothing stopping Lucas from achieving the same realism as that film except the fact that it would cost another $5 million.
Post
#246325
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246325/action/topic#246325
Time
I guess this means that for the two TV shows LFL will be relying solely on CG as a low-cost, lower-res form of SFX. The first show is all CG and the live action will probably have 90% of its FX done through CG models and digi matte paintings, with the rare model instances farmed out. I guess it makes sense from LFL's point of view, but ILM does more than just Star Wars and they usually use lots of models as well. I can't see how this could really be that practical from a non-LFL point of view.

And yeah, a typical prequel film has more model work than the entire OT combined. Problem is though that they are photographed with digital cameras (except TPM), digitally composited and usually digitally tweaked as well, and then placed in a digital environment; the final image, even though it is model based or uses models, still has that artificial sheen to it.
Post
#246321
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246321/action/topic#246321
Time
And also about accepting that you dont have the power to hold absolute control over things. Lucas constantly talks about greed and about anakins want to hold on to things and money of course is the ultimate contemporary symbol of this concept. You can't be a multi-billion-dollar empire head with teams and teams of lawyers and accountants and secretaries and workers and honestly talk about this stuff as a form of preaching. Its not necessarily Lucas' fault either, its just the way he ended up.

You can read this type of stuff both ways when it comes to the OOT. It can be said to accept the SE but it can also be said that the OOT never should have been changed. Ultimately that kind of "no possessiveness" is not a practical life creed but more of a mental philosophy. Its at odds with human nature and doesn't really work in life.

But whatever. I know that this type of thing is only valuable in the dramatic sense for a story, ie the PT.
Post
#246316
Topic
Lucas donates $175 million to CA University
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246316/action/topic#246316
Time
Keep in mind though that this charity foundation is almost assuredly created as a form of tax write off and with LFL being such a big company they obviously can amass quite a bit of charity funding...and they have to give it to someone. Not trying to dampen this generous act but its more of a corperate necessity than a personal act. Its not his actual personal money or anything.

Still, great that this happens, even if it is kind of dubious in motivation.
Post
#246291
Topic
What's Original '77 and What's Not?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246291/action/topic#246291
Time
Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: zombie84
Someone needs to do a layered composite of the two crawls to see if they sync up down to the pixel.
It's not necessary... the crawl is obviously an optical composite.. here, I'll show you...

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9091/crawlhf3.gif

Notice 2 things... on the "a" is a "dark star" that goes over the text, and over the "e" a scratch appears in 1 frame. This would not be the case if it was a digital recreation.



Wow, nice catch Boris! If you also look at the "N" there is another star that overlaps at the edge as well.

Well, that settles it for me. This looks like the real deal.

Now, i wonder--is the entire opening shot (ie crawl+stardestroyer) a new transfer as well? Because that original shot on the laserdisk had a different starfield did it not? Or is the new crawl simply blended with the old star destroyer shot? I ask this because if the whole thing is from a new transfer that may indicate that LFL has material ready for a pristine transfer of the OOT, and may even have already done such a scan.
Post
#246216
Topic
.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246216/action/topic#246216
Time
I'm not sure if thats entirely fair. When i buy a bootleg version of the SE on ebay should we fault Twentieth Century Fox, saying they are ripping off Lucasfilm by the presense of bootlegs? Lucasfilm looses whether someone buys a bootleg of the official SE or if its a bootleg of the X0. A bootleg is a bootleg. So, yes, although its not quite as cut and dry as the SE situation, i believe the X0 team is by all means allowed to say "not our fault" because its not. If i tear a chapter out of a book that i don't like and give it to a friend to read and he photocopies it and sells it illegally then I am not responsible, legally or ethically.
Post
#246214
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246214/action/topic#246214
Time
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Yeah, but I am not a scientologist and I'm not Ned Flanders, I have negative reactions to things sometimes. But anyway, I thought Apocalypse 79 looking more muted than Redux was appropriate, and the idea of a technicolor Star Wars is really something, though. I'm curious what was Lucas' motivation in creating it originally? Just for posterity?


Yeah, its appropriate that the theatrical edition of Apocalypse Now is more muted than Redux but I felt that it could have been a bit more vibrant. Its really the limit of the print and transfer used for the DVD. Theres so much noise and grain that you can't really process the image any more. Its the same transfer from the 1999 DVD, and it mostly holds up--obviously they are waiting for the HD release before they do a new transfer. Will be very greatful when that happens. The Redux print is the most accurate in terms of colours, and the quality of the image is just astounding--it really is the best home video print I've ever seen, even if the actual transfer is only so-so, being from 2001.
Does anyone know if Technicolour prints actually boost saturation at all or is it just that normal Kodak prints rob the colour information so badly? Either way it looks very lush and vibrant, but theres a really indescribable quality to the tonal values, and the fact that it is struck directly from the O-neg really brings out the detail. Would be a dream if they could reconstruct the theatrical cut and give it the same treatment. I think the theatrical cut is one of the most important films ever made in America.

As for Star Wars, yeah, Lucas had the seperation masters made for himself for preservations sake. He also has complete technicolour print that is immaculate condition--this is what he gave to YCM labs as a reference guide when the restored the film for the SE. Scanning the seperation masters into a new 4K DI would basically preserve Star Wars forever in perfect form. What is the point of having these seperation masters if they aren't going to be used?? Maybe one day...
Post
#246203
Topic
What's Original '77 and What's Not?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246203/action/topic#246203
Time
Originally posted by: Zion
About the opening crawl...

If you watch it closely, you can see that the stars wobble like hell, but the text doesn't. one might immediately assume that it is a digital recreation, but if you look at the crawl from Empire of Dreams, it does the exact same thing. Now I don't know if anyone knows for sure where the EOD crawl came from, but if anyone can say for a fact that it was a direct film capture, I'll believe that the GOUT crawl is the real deal plus some minor cleanup and color correction.


I don't have any hard evidence beyond my personal experience but i would be willing to bet my entire familys life that the EOD crawl is genuine and from a film source.
Post
#246202
Topic
You've Failed, Your Highness.
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246202/action/topic#246202
Time
"Emperor" denotes tyranny much more than "King" or "Supreme [insert title]". Its associated more with dictatorship type of government. The truth is that most people--and I'm sure Lucas himself--don't know that "majesty" or "highness" have specific uses. I sure didn't. Lucas just choses things for their aesthetic sound or associative connotation. Highness just seemed to be a better word to use, and Emperor is more apporpriate for a tyrant.
Post
#246186
Topic
OOT Anamorphic Widescreen 2007
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246186/action/topic#246186
Time
When we see those screencaps maybe we will actually be able to form opinions. Right now its all unfounded heresay. I mean if i said "yeah a new 2007 box set is being worked on with the OOT and an updated SE"...well, the only valid reply would "yeah, and the sky is blue." This is nothing new at this point. But when you actually have something to bring to the table we will be greatful.
Post
#246099
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246099/action/topic#246099
Time
Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes
As far as the video of the Apocalypse Redux disc goes, the DVD does use seamless branching between the two cuts. So some sequences use the same video. However, this doesn't mean whole scenes play with the same transfer. Either way, I believe whatever wasn't in Redux or vice versa was taken from the previously released DVD.


Theres no branching. Its both movies as their own movies.