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zombie84

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21-Nov-2005
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Post
#263966
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263966/action/topic#263966
Time
Okay, here is the thing:

I have heard of people claiming that there was an additional shot or two in the 70mm version, or that a shot or two was missing. There has never been any hard confirmation of this by any kind of reliable source, and the purportedly changed shots are sometimes inconsistently reported. The more consistent ones however, are the extra long bacta tank shot. Very minor tweaks such as this. The sound mix we know had a few similarly-subtle differences--notably the line of Luke's, "you were lucky to get out there" that now is part of the SE. In fact, Lucasfilm confirms this in their "what has changed" lists (i cant remember, there might have been one or two other unique 70mm audio blips as well). The 70mm tracks are among the first mixes to be done because they use special six-track surround, with the 35mm mono/stereo mixes coming afterwards, so because of this there are always differentiations in mixing and sometimes even dialog, especially in the case of ANH. But this is just sound mixing stuff--it can be easily changed and played around with until the last day. Changing the picture, however, is a big, big deal. Personally, i find the notion of even one or two extra cuts to be total falsehoods--people thought the same thing about ANH (ie shots being reversed in edit order) but a bootleg of that has since put that to rest as being untrue. I think its just the massive 70mm format making the film seem different, personally. However, it is possible that, as the 70mm mix is being worked on, a last crucial shot or two can be added in time for the 35mm version, or cut out for that matter--this almost happened on ESB, as Gary Kurtz meticulously recollects, but it never did. He confirms that the prints are the same, because for him and Lucas, changing the film at the last minute was a huge deal, as i said.
But anyway, had you said that there was one or two shots different, i would be inclined to consider your opinion as another interesting bit of trivia to consider in our continued efforts to map every bit of fact about the star wars films. But the sheer volume of changes "remembered" by you, including ones that were never even filmed, tells me that you arent actually remembering factual events. Like i said, i remember reading pages and pages on fan mail in Star Wars Insider in the mid-90's with dozens of people from around the world who had never met claiming they had seen the Biggs footage--some said it was an obscure 70's print, some say it was an obscure 80's tv broadcast. In fact, this continues to this day. But they hadn't seen it because the footage had never, ever seen the light of day until it was dug up from the vaults and telecine'd for the 1996 Behind the Magic CD-ROM. Again, Bugs Bunny syndrome.

Now, if you want an inside account of the last-minute post production of ESB, the 70mm creation and what went out, Gary Kurtz himself will put this all to rest:

"At the very end of Empire ... we decided at the very last minute – we pretty much locked the picture in the mix and just getting ready to make 70mm prints – and we decided that there had to an extra shot at the very end, to identify this rebel fleet.

If you remember how the end works, it's before you go into the medical department, who are working on Mark's hand. It's the establishing shot of the fleet, and we had a shot already of going into the window and showing Mark inside, and we just decided that it was confusing We didn't know exactly how that was sorted out, so we wanted a long shot at the beginning, and then one at the end that shows the whole fleet when the Falcon flies off. They weren't very difficult to do, and all the ships were there ... just pile up the composites, and they were rushed through, just to get it done. Very last minute. One of them wasn't particularly good, and George said, "Oh well, maybe we should just let it go."

I said, "It's worth at least one more go through. One bad shot can ruin the whole movie, basically." Which I really believe is true, and it just wasn't very good. It was just a compositing problem, had nothing to do with the individual shot elements – I can't even remember what shot it was, now. I think making a movie wears everybody down. You have to be really careful of the decisions you make at the very end, because you can kind of throw a monkey wrench in, very easily."
--from IGN Filmforce

He tells the same story to Filmthreat.com:

"At the very end of Empire, we were fighting the deadline to get the film made in time, to get it out. Now, Empire was released only in 70mm first, in a couple of hundred cinemas. At that time with 70mm being magnetically striped for sound, we actually had to physically have people sit at the lab and run every single reel to check and make sure the soundtrack was okay. Because the magnetic coating didn't always work and it pealed off, there were dropouts, nightmares. We rejected about 25 percent of the reels, and they had to be restriped. The picture was fine, but the sound had to be restriped and then re-recorded just to get all these prints together. So we had two or three people sitting there, day and night, running reels. At the last real we hadn't even finished yet, because we were just getting in a couple of optical effects and miniatures from the Cloud City sequences. I remember we were sitting there at ILM, there was this one shot where the Millennium Falcon lands in Cloud City and it turns and lands and had some glitches in it. George said, "Well we're running out of time, I guess that's okay." And I said, "We can't use that! We've got to do that over again. Because it just doesn't look right." So, Richard Edlund agreed and we had this sort of heated discussion about whether there was enough time and whether we could get it done in time. We did do it over again, and it was much better. That was actually the first time I saw him not want to do the best he possibly could, because he was genuinely worried about the time. If we didn't meet our deadline, we were going to be in real shit. Then we decided, at the very last minute, to add an extra shot which was a real nightmare because at the very, very end we go in on the after the final battle where they escape Vader. We dissolve and we're in on this ship where the medical section is and where they're fixing Luke's hand and then we go through the final dialogue scene and Lando and Chewie leave. Well, oh, that was fine, it's just that we found that some of the people who sat through that last reel said we're not quite sure where we are at this point, because we've just gone through this sort of big confrontation thing and they escaped Vader, so we dissolved and that was out in space too. So we decided to add a long shot of the rebel fleet kind of steaming away with a dozen ships.

[ That's the very last image of the film, right? ]

No, that's not the very last image, we use it again. But, I mean this is at the beginning of that sequence. We dissolve to this long shot of the rebel fleet and then we cut to this shot where we move in on the one ship into the medical window. Then at the end, we pull out of that same window. So, we needed this shot and so ILM plans, shot the elements, composited the shot, this was before digital so it was all done optically, processed it and we had a negative for it all in about 48 hours. It was just amazing. They cut that into the print to make the 70mm prints for the last reel, just a few days before they had to be shipped so it was really tight. They did it and they did a great job, and we were really lucky too because a lot of those optical composites involved a lot of different elements. The first couple of gos, the color correction is all screwy and so we have to go back and redo it and change colors and things, so we were doing that constantly."

So, it seems there was no picture differentiations. They came close to including an earlier version of a cloud city shot and ommitting a final rebel fleet shot, but in the end all these things came through at the last moment due to the tireless work of the crew, and the prints were able to ship out in identical picture lock.

As I said, I see no reason to believe that there were any picture or editing differences in ESB. We know for sure of the many sound differences, but there has never been any surfacing of picture differences besides fans having false childhood memories.

Hope this puts it all to rest.
Post
#263872
Topic
About the moonlandings
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263872/action/topic#263872
Time
Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
that video did nothing for me. if people think the moon landing was faked that is not the video to tell them otherwise.

the guy states that when slowing down the camera the actor can not portray buzz's bouncing steps...
i dunno if this guy is just naturally biased but it looked damn near perfect to me.


well that is hardly the hinge upon which rests the controversy. In fact, this is one of the least significant points, but as the video showed, the weight distribution due to the gravity of earth yields a totally different body motion; maybe its just not as obvious because of the web quality of the vid.
Post
#263853
Topic
About the moonlandings
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263853/action/topic#263853
Time
Yes, those conspiracy theorists are quite dumb. I remember hearing a story where some guy accosted Buzz Aldrin and accused him of being a fraud and a disgrace and then Aldrin punched him out--good job! As a photographer, the one that always gets me is the bit about "theres no stars!"--have you ever tried to photograph stars using a motion picture camera? Whenever you see a starscape in a movie, its a special effect, because stars are too dim to expose at 1/48th of a second, especially on 1960's speed stock. The other bit about the flag "flapping in the wind"--yes, all those brilliant CIA conspiracy guys forgot to close the studio doors and a massive gust was whipping through the soundstage (whilst also undisturbing the sand and spacesuite costumes). I think this is all given legitimacy by that dispicably manipulative Fox television special in the late 90's that was in favor of this conspiracy.
Post
#263830
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263830/action/topic#263830
Time
Originally posted by: Laserman
The SW trilogies were in high demand, so when that happens typically you end up with a few different cuts running around as various edits get frantically pulled from the shelves to strike another set of prints to keep up with demand. This can happen because the current 'master' is already somewhere else and they need, say another 30 prints for Canada and there is a less than perfect but usuable edit sitting there that could be used.


I'm sorry but this never happens. The studio would never, ever send out some massively-different workprint version of the film out to theaters, and for that matter the master prints would never leave. They don't go out "on loan" unless its to Delux Labs, where they would then just phone them and say "hey print us up 30 more prints for Canada." Additionally, in the unrealistic hypothetical event that the IP was destroyed or lost and a quick batch of prints needed, a slew of other versions of the master would be available--a new IP could be struck from the IN, or if it is merely for a few select Canadian cities getting the debut (ie Vancouver, Edmonton, Montreal and Toronto) they could even just strike second-generation prints from existing ones.

Its just a hard fact that the events being described are not possible. If it is some kind of earlier cut, it would have to be also minus the proper post production, since the post on ESB was literally to the last minute. It would have no music, little special effects shots and a raw on-the-set soundtrack. The soundtracks to the films have to be properly timmed up to the final edit, otherwise a one-frame difference could cause a sync drift. Making a different cut of ESB suitable for theatrical screening, in large-format 70mm no less, is a massive undertaking, and would require going back to the workprints and O-negs, striking new duplicates, splicing the scenes in, re-scoring and additonal sound design work, and then a overall re-timing of the film to make sure everything is all nice. Like i said, its a huge, huge deal, and theres no way that a project as massive as this would only be shown once or twice in Edmonton, and not noticed or talked about by anyone else related to the film as every other minute difference is.

Aside from this logistical improbability, there is also the more important points that i brought up before, which is that most of these scenes were never even filmed. Like Laserman said, its the Bugs Bunny syndrome, which is why so many fans remember weird things, and whose "false memories" even agree with one another.

Post
#263761
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263761/action/topic#263761
Time
First of all, General Veers' death only appear in earlier versions of the scripts, the third and foruth drafts i think. At this time, storyboarding was being done, so storyboards exist for this scene. However, it was written out of the movie at the next draft, which is why it doesn't appear in the shooting script. It was never filmed.

The wampa attack, I'm sorry to say, could not possibly be seen by--and by anyone, unfortunately--because it was never finished. During filming, the logistics were so problematic that they literally gave up and moved on. So the wampa sequences can never be seen because all that consists is literally a few b-roll shots of soliders reacting and one or two botched close-ups. The sequence can never be seen in its entirety and as a part of the film because narratively it is incomplete.

Han solo's torture and him and Leia kissing on Bespin you probably remember because these things happen in the film! The footage cut for the Leia kiss was from an alternative scene that was re-filmed and would have not appeared past the first rough cut that was assembled mid-way through production (if in fact it made any cut at all). Stuff like the bacta mask and fluid is easy to see that its just exaggerated memories, especially when these shots appeared priminently in the theatrical trailer for film.

Additionally, i believe the rough cut of Empire may still have been made on black and white workprint stock at that time, so obviously the rough cut could not possibly have been screened. Especially being 70mm, you would have to constructed a brand new Interpositive made from the original negatives. Things like this are a big deal--they dont just happen by accident, or "sneak out". There was never any preview screenings with changed footage, and certainly none in 70mm that just happened to make their way to a solitary theater in Edmonton that was only witnessed by a ten year old and his friends. As i said, the very nature of most of these cut scenes makes it impossible for them to have ever gotten out, and they haven't, which is why Lucasfilm has never released them, referenced them or confirmed them in their meticulous "what has changed" lists. To get these scenes would require going back to the original negatives from the archives. Again, I'm not saying that you are crazy or a liar or anything--these types of things are actually common amongst fans, who claim to remember all sorts of alternative versions of the films. I can't say for sure what the source is for these mis-rememberences--kids remember things in very funny ways. Theres a very amusing thread on TFN thats about 50 pages long called "Misconceptions you had about Star Wars when you were a kid" and its filled with all kinds of mis-interpretations of scenes and such.
Post
#263729
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263729/action/topic#263729
Time
Its true that Canadian theaters at that time had the right to censor films themselves, but this lost cut thing is all in your mind. For starters, the nature of canadian censorship didn't add things to the films--as if some theater in a backwater town in northern ontario, for example, could request copies of the original negatives from Lucasfilm and re-construct scenes. What they did is literally take a pair of scissors and cut out the "dirty' frames. For example, the moment of impact of Luke's hand being lopped off might have been cut--you see Darth swing and then Luke is screaming with his hand already missing. This is the type of stuff that happened. As for the Walker's exploding head, it is doubtful that it was ever filmed, since it would have required complicated special effects and a completed edit. The tauntaun subplot has never been seen, except in brief behind the scenes clips--ask Jambe Davdar, LOL.

Hate to break it to you, but you are imagining this lost cut of Empire. Many people have done similar things with Star Wars as well, and it stems from reading comics, novels, etc, the imagination of little boys living in 1980, and thiry years of time passing.
Post
#263713
Topic
10 years of the Special Editions
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263713/action/topic#263713
Time
I loved the SE's when they came out! The SE was by far the best Star Wars experience of my life--a pure celebration of the OT. I thought the changes were fun and interesting as a sort of "alternative version" of the films--back then we had no idea that they would be permanently replacing the OOT. Okay Greedo was always lame, but personally i thought it was an interesting experiment, and it was really great to see the original jabba footage. Personally, i still feel that the Yavin battle in the SE is an improvement over the original.
But the best part of it was just the experience of seeing the films on the big screen--and the air of excitement that surrounded it. Star Wars posters all over the lobby, lineups stretching out the doors, john williams tunes playing from speakers outside the theater. The crowds were truely varried--40 year old men, 8 year old boys. It made something like $30 million that weekend, while the number 2 film was Jerry Maguire which pulled in something like $8 million. Everyone was seeing Star Wars--yes, "Star Wars," not "episode iv." It was fantastic. I remember in November of 1998 i saw the trailer attached to the Stallone flick Daylight and it just took my breath away because i had never seen Star Wars images on anything larger than my parents 27" tv. I went with my little sister on opening day and everyone in the theater just had a tremendously great time. A few days later i went back with my dad. He had seen the film when he was only 24 years old, on one of his first dates with my mom--now he was seeing the same film in a packed house with his 13 year old son. This truely was a unique moment in cinema history, where such a "vintage" film was so much more immensely popular than anything contemporary. It was more than just the simple re-release of a classic film.
I remember it was also the first time i saw the films in widescreen--i started noticing so many more details, due to the full ratio and the large size, that i truely couldn't tell what was added for the SE and what was not. It was the re-watching of my favourite film but it was also a re-discovery of sorts.

I think the SE was a very important moment in Star Wars history, and a positive one, no doubt about that. If Lucas had done it, released it, put out a video version of it and that was all, it would be a great move, a fun "enhanced" or "alternative" version of the classic film but instead he started getting high and mighty about "the other versions don't exist."
Post
#263298
Topic
Empire Strikes Back sets are terrible.
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263298/action/topic#263298
Time
I think Dagobah is one of the best sets ever designed for a film. Bespin is not necessarily a bad set than it is a trendy set--it reflects certain late 70's design aesthetics. The ROTJ sets are about as good as any fantasy film from that time period and hold up today. Personally the phoniest sets are in the PT--i mean look at the Trade Federation control bridge--the plastic-coated paint makes the walls and detailing look exactly like what it is.
Post
#263297
Topic
George Lucas gonna go bankrupt?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263297/action/topic#263297
Time
Sales for LFL since the prequels have been pretty extraordinary, considering there is no new base product being made. Obviously to compare post-2005 and pre-2005 is just ridiculous, but with the huge success of stuff like Lego II and the OOT, i think, unofficially, the company is doing far better than expected considering that these two major wins were largely unplanned beforehand.
Post
#263177
Topic
Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263177/action/topic#263177
Time
Originally posted by: CO<brOne way to look at this whole mess is that Lucas hasn't really put a proper release of the OT movies out yet, as the 2004 was a rush job with Lukes greenlightsaber, reversed music in ANH, and one really good documentary with a bunch of lame featurettes. The 2006 OOT was non-anamorphic half ass job. There has to be one definitive set before DVD gives out to HD-DVD. What will happen, I really don't know.



That is basically the way i was looking at it, and with the whole 30th anniversary thing going on its a natural--I mean Celebration IV is supposedly a Lucasfilm celebration bash of the 30th anniversary. To me it seems like a natural business formula, because if you released the OOT again in 2008 it wouldnt be as significant or sell as well.

I will, however, say that i totally understand where people like Cable are coming from--Lucasfilm is so schizephrenic sometimes that really, who the fuck knows what they will do.
Post
#263169
Topic
Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263169/action/topic#263169
Time
I dont doubt that Lucas wants it relegated to the dustbin but i think he is starting to realise that its just some megalomaniacal pipe-dream of his. The release of the OOT that has already occured, regardless of its motivations for release, is proof of this. Obviously his "artistic integrity" has financial boundaries. Really, Lucas himself is not in charge of Lucasfilm anymore, as he stepped down as CEO--the 2006 OOT release was entirely Jim Ward's project. Obviously we will see the OOT released in Lucas' lifetime because it has already happened. This whole "they don't exist" thing is simply bullshit, its just Lucas wishing out loud.

Like i said, how else can Lucasfilm possibly justify any more releases of the films? With no new theatrical releases, everything is done--theres not really a significant slew of new initiates to lure with new purchases. 90% of the people the boxset is marketed for would have already have all the films. Maybe i am wrong, maybe it will be the first option I proposed, simply the pre-existing dvds in a big box with some dinky bonus game demo thrown in or something, but I really don't see how Lucasfilm could actually think that it would be a profitable undertaking. Obviously fan demand, artistic worth and any such pretentiousness has no bearing on whether the OOT will or will not be released, and the content of any impending box set--this is a corperation very much like Disney. The question is will this make the company money? I really don't think so.

As for the cost of releasing a new transfer: million? God no. Thousands. Pocket change really. There are plenty of viable prints in the LFL archives that are perfect candidates--including those wonderful dye-transfer prints--and the standard dirt-removal filters included in modern telecine suites would be more than adequet for a new release. The total cost of this entire release would be well under a hundred thousand dollars.
I really can't see them waiting until the HD releases either. The release of a proper OOT would have to be done soon, and the 30th anniversary is a pretty good opportunity, when everyone will be hungry for the ORIGINAL "nostalgic" material. Looking at the release pattern:
-release PT first because everyone will be hungry for DVD star wars
-release OT SE next because everyone will be hungry for OT on dvd
-release OOT crap-version next because everyone will be hungry for OOT in any form
-release OOT good-version next because everyone will re-buy a proper release
Then, repeat for HD, which Lucasfilm should be moving into in the next three or four years.
Post
#263125
Topic
Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263125/action/topic#263125
Time
It is interesting, however, that this supposed box set appears to not have any additional featurettes made for it. Getting all the original players back together for the 2004 dvd set was a big, big deal--they started contacting actors and technitions way back in 2003, and had filmed everything and recorded all the commentaries by the summer. And everyone knew about it. When you have Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill and Gary Kurtz hanging around Skywalker Ranch, people take notice--and the media was informed about what was going on. So Empire of Dreams, the Characters of Star Wars, all those featurettes are all we will be getting, and you can bet the commentaries will be repeated. Even the great PT supplemental disks did not call the cast back--they just used the same publicity junkets and on-set interviews that the actors are required to do.

What does that leave? Super-enhanced Ultimate Final Editions of all the films, including the prequels (as evident by the CGI TPM yoda). Mmm, not too interesting considering there has been "Special Edition" marketing oversaturation already--these will appeal only to the hardest of hardcore fans. Deleted Scenes? Almost certainly, and these are probably the most fascinating prospect of a future release, and you can bet that they were deliberately withheld from the first release as firepower for a future one. Perhaps a sort of "Nostalgia" theme by including the original television documentaries that are so often bootlegged and requested by fans? Another promising extra, but again these pale in actual content to Empire of Dreams, though they do offer some additional footage. But do you think these things are really enough to persuade everyone that bought the 2004 DVD set--as well as the 2006 dvd trilogy--to shell out another 70 bucks or so? No way. You need the remastered OOT.
This would play right into the whole "nostalgia" thing that LFL has been harping, since they realised that the PT can only sustain the company for so long before they have to dip back into the OT. You get the original deleted footage, the original television specials and documentaries...and the original films.

Theres still tons of PT docs to be made--"The Beginning", the fantastic TPM doc, was assembled out of 300 hours of footage. You could easily create new on-set featurettes for the PT, finish more of the many deleted scenes not included in the original disks, and maybe even do more commentaries (Ben Burtt talks so much he could get his own--but it would be neat to finally have some actors participate in a new one). PT fans are so easily persuaded that they could be fooled into buying the films again but for OT fans there is only one real reason: a proper release of the OOT. The only question is: did they alienate enough people with the 2006 disks that they would eradicate their only major market? Hard to say.

With this in mind, there are then two possibilities for this release. PT fanboys are still drooling over fantasy scenes that will be filmed and inserted into the OT, like one of Palpatine dissolving the senate in ANH, or Yoda in ANH or more footage of Alderaan being destroyed, or a re-edited Obi Wan duel. But to do these things is a huge, huge deal, and we would have at least heard some rumblings by now, so i think it is safe to say that any additional enhances to the films will be extremely subtle tweaks that are hardly even noticeable--like maybe corrected lightsaber colours.
So, possibility one: this release is not a major one at all, basically the six existing dvds in a new extra-big box, maybe with more shitty video game demos invading bitrate space and new video interview with Lucas on the overal six-episode saga and a preview of the new tv series.
possibility two: its a much bigger release, but still using the pre-existing releases as the majority base, with "nostalgia" being the theme, containing the OT deleted scenes, tv specials and the remastered OOT, plus the corrected SE's, all the original bonus material, and maybe an extra disk of newly edited featurettes of the mostly PT variety, as well as both Clone War cartoon disks, and a sneak peak at the upcoming TV show. This to me seems much more likely, especially with the 30th anniversary of the ORIGINAL films--they are going to need SOME kind of marketing ploy that flaunts the whole "nostalgia" thing--what better way?
Post
#263091
Topic
Did Anyone go shopping today?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263091/action/topic#263091
Time
Not that Nintendo won't have large success with their system, due to name recognition alone, but i think the results will be similar or probably even lesser than the Gamecube--decent enough, but really nothing to get too excited about. For serious gamers, I find that the competition continues to put out substantially better product, as worthwhile as Nintendo's is. The Wii seems to be the most niche system since the Virtualboy, and we all remember how that turned out (though it was kind of cool). The Wii strikes me as something that will be much, much more popular in asia, where those types of gimmicks and exaggeratedness are more in style.
Post
#263057
Topic
Did Anyone go shopping today?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263057/action/topic#263057
Time
I think its extremely unfair to assess BluRay as dead or to compare it to HD-DVD right now--HD-DVD has been out for a half year, and with a heavy market saturation. Blu-Ray, for all intents and purposes, just came out a month or two ago. It has indeed had a hickuppy release, what with delays and hardware glitches, and only now are they starting to use dual-layered non-MPEG2 disks. As far as I am concerned, the format is as new as the PS3. At this time next year if things are more or less the same then we can proclaim it a generally failed effort, but personally we are only now starting to even see the potential of the format, which hasn't even had a proper forum for release until a month or two ago.

As for the PS3, i think the overestimated sales have to do mainly with price--and in this aspect, the Blu-Ray integration is mainly at fault. Current players retail for $700-1200, so to get a Blu-Ray player bundled with a great gaming system for whatever it is, $600 or so, is a great bargain--but this, unfortunately, is not a concern to gamers. I think any rejection of the PS3 is based mostly on price--the new X-Box system is about on par with the Sony machine (and personally i don't think Nintendo has much of a following anymore so the Wii is not a huge competitor). If you have two systems that are virtually equal but one costs hundreds of dollars less, which are you going to go for? I suppose, on the other hand, that most early adopters who are willing to spend half a grande aren't really going to be too put off by a one-time extra charge of a hundred bucks or so. The real issue is going to come when price drops begin to put it in the price range of more casual gamers--systems don't really take off until they reach the $250-300 range, and if the PS3 stays well above that, as it probably will for many more years, then that will be its true death.

Back on topic, i have done little post-christmas shopping so far. A trip to Chinatown left me with a bunch of bootlegged Hong Kong films but thats about it (not usually my thing, but the rarity of certain asian titles sometimes leaves these things as the only option unfortunately).
Post
#262954
Topic
Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262954/action/topic#262954
Time
Originally posted by: grifter
We are almost five months to the 30th anniversary and still no news about the "saga" boxset, I have a bad feeling about this...


They are not going to announce it until probably february at least, so as not to dissuade the christmas/boxingday/new-years sales. Otherwise all those PT/OT/OOT disks I see on the shelves will continue to sit there instead of being bought twice.
Post
#262743
Topic
If GL made the PT first
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262743/action/topic#262743
Time
Well its hard to really compare because it literally would be an entirely different series, with entirely different plots, characters, environments and overall tone. Because of that, it is actually a very good question.

Dark Horse tried to answer this with their "Infinities" line of comics, wherein they present alternate versions of the OT but with knowledge of the PT--they turn out quite different from the films. These are, however, mosly "what if?" type of stories and not true PT-centric OT remakes.

Had the PT been genuinely been made initially, the PT itself would first of all be quite different, because it wouldn't have to fit around the OT. It would, i think, be more coherant as a whole because of this. The first two episodes would be quite similar, maybe even exactly similar with only a few deviations, as Lucas mostly made these up from scratch. This gives you a good indication of where the series would have headed and what the OT might be like. Lucas has said that he had to basically re-write all of Episode III once he had completed the outline in august of 2002 because he realised it had a structure that did not align or bridge into Episode IV smoothly--it was a natural continuation of the PT plot which left in Episode II, and probably put more focus of things that were sort of left by the wayside in the final version of Episode III, such as all the plotting surrounding the Jedi, the Force and the prophecy, Sifo-Dias, the revenge of Boba Fett, and the turn into Vader occured later on in the film as far as i can tell. The droids would not be in it. And Leia would not be Luke's sister.

There are two ways the arc of the OT plot could go: one with the two death stars, in Episodes IV and VI, and one with only one death star in Episode IV. In any case the film would focus more on Luke and Obi Wan, instead of an ensemble character piece. Tarkin of course would not be in the film at all, and instead Vader would be the villain, and all the bad guy scenes would be set on the Imperial Palace on Coruscant. Princess Leia would be captured as a traitor to the Empire in the opening scene and taken as hostage in a similar sequence to the film, with R2 and 3P0 escaping to warn other rebel members to aid her. Maybe she could have knowledge that the Empire is in the midst of constructing a doomsday device somewhere and was en route to secure Obi Wan as in the final film. Luke would be introduced in a thrilling Skyhopper racing sequence, such as in the radio drama. Obi Wan's story of the old republic and Anakin of course would be greatly different, but maybe he would still hide the truth about Vader's identity, and this would be the grave secret he could keep in guilt for the film. The rest of the film would feature Luke and Obi Wan recruiting Han to rescue the princess from a prison complex on Coruscant--only Han would be a CG alien, perhaps the green fish-mutant he was in the 1974 rough draft. There would of course be a scene of the Emperor dissolving the Imperial senate. If Lucas went with having a Death Star in the film it would be closer to the final version, although Coruscant would still be shown, perhaps with a scene between him and the Emperor in there somewhere. A scene of Vader sensing something amiss due to Luke's presence would also be in there somewhere i am sure. There might even be a section where they first travel to another rebel-friendly planet and recruit a bunch of alien rebels, who then accompany them as a large assault squad to retrieve the princess, much like the 1973 treatment, resulting in a much bigger battle but one that probably is much less humanised and entertaining character-wise. The film would be more dramatic and dark, and Vader's rematch with Obi Wan would be a much bigger focal point with much more gravity and flash i am sure.
After the princess is rescued/Death Star is destroyed, there would be a scene with Vader travelling back to Coruscant: he arrives in the gloomy Imperial Palace, rain pouring down and kneels before the Emperors throne, telling his master of the defeat. The Emperor throws Vader around and chokes him as punishment, telling him that he must not fail him again. Vader weakly apologises and the Emperor orders him away, and he storms away in shame, throwing aside Imperial officers. He stands waiting at a balcony some time later when an officer comes to deliver him news: they have learned that the identity of the one who rescued the princess/destroyed the death star is named Luke Skywalker. Vader's breathing silences for a tense moment and he stares back before his breathing returns to normal. He quietly thanks him and ordering him away. The scene would end with him contemplating the news as he stares into the rainy coruscant skyline. Fade back to the Yavin medal ceremony. Stuff like this no doubt would be peppered throughout the series to give insight into Vader's character that is needed due to the PT but lacking in the actual OT.
The second film could basically go any way needed, but it could also stay pretty much as is, though given the possibilities available to Lucas i am sure that he would come up with a much bigger and alien-central plot that focuses much less on the core character intimacies than the real ESB does. Leia and Han's relationship wouldn't be such a big part, and because of that Lucas might not even split up the character group as he did, although i don't know how that would effect Luke's training. Yoda and Obi Wan would be bigger characters, perhaps discussing a plan more coherant and clear with regards to Luke's purpose. The equivalent to Lando would be introduced in an action scene on Coruscant, with him and Bothan spies (CGI aliens naturally) undergoing a complicated mission to retrieve the sensitive Death Star info--likely Han, Leia and Chewie could partake in this as well. The rebels would be much better developed in terms of politics, with it revealed that much of the general populace was being swayed to side of the rebels due to the Empire's growing iron fist, and many key leaders would be integrated amongst the politicians and general citizens the way Leia was in Episode IV. I doubt that Han's cliffhanger would be included--probably the film would end with the Rebels preparing to have an all-or-nothing final assault, maybe with the cliffhanger being that the Empire's planet-destroying doomsday device is completed.
Episode VI would probably be the most different. Lucas has said that he made the rescue of Han such a big part mainly because the character had become so popular, but i doubt that he would have been as popular without Ford or such a big emphasis on him. If Lucas chose to go the single-Death Star route then this would probably have most of the scenes smilar to that of the film, except with the Emperor remaing on coruscant. The film could perhaps open with the Emperors visit as in the final film, which introduces Vader's relationship with him and sets up the plot, but have him not stay. Like the initial 1981 rough draft, the Death Star would remain by orbitting Coruscant, with Endor a sanctuary moon being harvested for resources. Luke would visit Yoda and build a new lightsaber before Yoda dies and Obi Wan fills Luke in on the real history as per the film. The film would progress from here, except the Ewoks would be different--they might be wookies, as per Lucas' original conception but then this would necessitate that Chewie be another type of alien, preferrably of the CG kind, which is more in keeping with Lucas' tastes of CGI-alien-sidekicks. The Endor battle would of course be more massive and epic, but a smaller focal point. Han, Leia and the CGI-alien-Lando-equivalent would partake in the Death Star battle after destroying the shield generator and Luke surrenders to the Imperial troops, who take him to Vader. A similar temptation scene as in the film would follow, and Vader would then take Luke to Coruscant.
Perhaps there might be a scene wherein Vader shows Luke the desecrated old Jedi temple before he takes him to the Emperor, with the temple now converted into a Sith shrine. Obi Wan could then appear and tempt Vader to turn good, as in the 1981 rough draft as well. Vader would then take Luke to meet the Emperor, who sits on his throne atop a lake of lava in the bowels of the planet as in the 1981 rough draft as well. The Emperor would be competing with Vader for Luke, with each plotting to kill the other, as in the 1981 rough draft, and this would be a simialrly central issue, with Moff Jerjerod being a central villain as he was in that draft. Perhaps it could be structured simialr to that, where Jerjerrod has Luke delivered to the Emperor behind Vader's back--Vader becomes enraged and kills Jerjerrod and storms the Palace to save Luke from the Emperor, killing Imperial guards who stand in his way. He finally confronts the Emeperor, who begins choking Vader until Vader submits. This whole lengthy section was one of the most powerful parts of the 1981 draft and it would probably be reprised, building much pathos in Vader. The temptation scenes with Luke would probably play out similar to the film, although the Emperor's manipulation would probably not be as blatant and illogical as it is considering how much work it took to sway Anakin in the first half of the series. This aspect could probably be integrated into the films better. The Death Star could be destroyed much quicker where the battle then goes to Imperial City on Coruscant. If there is only one death star in the series and this not even an aspect of ROTJ, then the shield generator plot would be to deactivate the shield that protects the Imperial planet so that the ships could then descend in an assault. The Emperors navy would of course be waiting and a simialr showdown would appear, which then takes to the inner atmosphere, maybe reminiscent of Episode III before descending into an all-out destuction of the Emperors palace. The Rebels integrated in the planet itself would then take the assault as sign of galaxy-wide rebellion and rise up with the citizens, resulting in a true planet-side civil war. Meanwhile, Luke gives into his anger and strikes down Vader in the Emperor's cavern, as the place crumbles apart due to the battle above, perhaps a nice symbolism of Luke's destructive power. He refuses and the Emperor starts to kill him, but Vader has his redemption and throws the Emperor into the lava. Luke and Vader then have their reconsilliation as in the film, perhaps in the palace docking bay above. Finally Luke brings his father's body into a ship and escapes as the palace falls apart and explodes. On the planet outside stormtroopers are overthrown as the planet topples its oppressors and Leia is elected as ruler, perhaps with Han as her king in a sort of humorous reversal of power roles. The final coda would have Luke rebuilding the Jedi temple and vowing to start anew, as the ghosts of Yoda, Obi Wan and his father look on proudly.

Or something. I'm sure the films would be startlingly different from anything i can speculate but i think this is at least a somewhat accurate estimation.
Post
#262578
Topic
ROCKY BALBOA
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262578/action/topic#262578
Time
I'm surprised to see this is getting good reviews. Myself and everyone else rolled their eyes at the mention of the film, but every review seems to be saying "who would have thought that this is a good film?" I love the original Rocky, a great low-budget 70's classic, but the sequels were all pretty crappy, even if they are enjoyable in a sort of guilty pleasure kind of way. I was willing to see this film just to laugh at the ridiculousness of it, but i am hoping it will at least honour the heart of the original film, which apparently it manages to do. I'm sure this is not a great film but the general consensus seems to be that it is a good one. I'll be seeing it soon, if only out of curiosity. Unlike say Indiana Jones IV, this film never had much of a legacy to live up to since the series had basically been run into the ground since 1978.
Post
#262476
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262476/action/topic#262476
Time
ESB never looked like it did on the 2004 dvds. If theres anything the 2004 disks aren't useful for, its colour--massive oversaturation and video noise issues, crushed black, and more importantly, a completely new DI with all new colour timing. The films looks slicker and in many ways "better" with the re-timing but they are extremely different than their original releases. ESB's re-colouring is probably the most insidious because it more or less looks the way we remember it but when you compare them they don't look anything alike--the film overall has a blue cast to it now, sort of a "Matrix"-like look; its effective, but its not the way the film originally was. The blue was definitly there for many sequences, having an overall cool colour palette, but the 2004 dvds really exagerate it as a stylistic look. As for Hoth on the GOUT, it is indeed somewhat neutral looking, but it was never really all that blue to begin with in terms of colour timing, at least not at all like it is on the 2004 where it is screaming blue, the way The Matrix or Terminator 2 look.
Post
#262398
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262398/action/topic#262398
Time
You know there is something charming about an old, grainey, well-worn print of Star Wars--I can't help but admit that the roughness of the GOUT has its own nostalgic charm. Even though this isn't a reflection of how the film looked in 1977--except perhaps by september of 1977 when second-run theaters were recieving second and third-hand prints--had the film been presented in a full-resolution new transfer of this "rough" picture i wouldn't be complaining. In fact, this is what most of us were actually expecting to get--an unrestored but newly transfered version of a print, perhaps somewhat scratchy and grainey, but in otherwise full, anamorphic fidelity.
Post
#262348
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262348/action/topic#262348
Time
Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Originally posted by: zombie84
Fans of the first version aren't around because there is no such place to discuss only the 1977 film and its universe.

I beg to differ. There's a few of us scattered around.



Yeah, i know you are literally one of the only people left on the star wars internet community of this group. "You my friend are all thats left of their religion..."
More and more i find myself being drawn to this camp though.

CO, i don't think that a release of the OOT, or the non-existence of the SE would do a whole lot to calming the "civil war", as it were--it would silence those who only hang around because they have a battle to fight (ie get the OOT released), and because they really just want to watch the movies and leave the PT guys to discusss whatever they want...but for those that do want to discuss the films, this solves nothing. The problem is, like i said, that the film i discuss is not necessarily the film a PT fan will discuss, as i provided by example earlier. If the OOT is remastered and the SE destroyed--so what? I still want to discuss the films sometimes, even if i have discussed most the obvious points to death already, and the fact is that it the prequels not the SE that creates the schism--the prequels introduce a new re-interpretation. We can ignore the PT and simply not discuss it--but the PT fans can't just ignore the OT because it is the continuation of the PT, its part of their story, and so there will be overlap. This is what inevitably results in hostility--"thats stupid, thats just some PT bullshit added to the film," "no, it just wasn't revealed initially, it makes the film better", etc. The SE was just superficial changes that were fun and/or annoying but the PT is where the story actually began to be reconfigured in substantial and incompatible ways. The only way for the hostility to be qwelled between the two groups of interpreters is if one of the groups dies--either the PT fails to catch on in the end and the second 1977-1983 group of OT fans slowly takes back the series, or the PT continues to gain ground as more younger fans are introduced to this version of the series and us OT fans are slowly replaced by the latest group. Personally i think it could go either way at this point, which is also what drives me to stick around and remind PT fans that they are not the sole inheriters of the series yet.
Post
#262146
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262146/action/topic#262146
Time
I agree that a lot of the divide would cease if the OOT was available in equal status. Just like fans who loved Star Wars in 1977 but thought the sequels weren't very good moved on thirty years ago and do not pester ESB/ROTJ fans, a similar occurence would happen--PT fans could enjoy those film and OOT fans would think they are idiots but otherwise leave them alone.

But i am not as optomistic that that is all it would take. Lucas has basically ensured that there will always be debate as long as there are OOT fans around--because he has subsequently created another film series that uses those films in their plot. When i watch Empire Strikes Back, i am not really watching the same film as, say, Go-Mer Tonic, or any PT gushers--for them, the film is interpreted and viewed in a completely different manner. I have noticed this problem begun to creep in to TFN about a year ago once the six-episode "Saga"-with-a-capitol-S was complete and the fans slowly began drifting towards their respective versions. For PT/OT preference it is one thing, because the OT'ers can just ignore the other side--but the PT lovers don't ignore the OT because it is part of their series as well. Theres no such thing as "just a PT fan" as there is with "just an OT fan." Because of this, there is inevitable overlap--take a look at the "Classic Trilogy" forum on TFN: discussion can ask a question, and get two different answers, ones that aren't just in disagreement over speculation but that aren't compatible with each other because the issues interpretated by the PT fan don't exist in the OT by itself. The PT fan will look at Obi Wan walking up to Chewie in the cantina and say "he knew Chewie would help because he knew the wookies helped the Jedi long ago and maybe Yoda even mentioned Chewie's name since they were combat comrades in the clone war"--but the OT fan will just stare back in bewilderment and say "what the fuck are you talking about?"

There are actually three different film series that all use Star Wars as the basis for the content.
The first is Star Wars, the 1977 film as a stand-alone fairy tale about Luke growing up and becoming a hero.
The second is the OT, the 1977-1983 series about Luke becoming a Jedi, redeeming his father and toppling the Empire with his Rebel friends.
The third is the PT-OT I-VI "Saga", the Tragedy of Darth Vader, concerning Anakin Skywalkers rise, fall and redemption, set alongside the fall of the republic and then rise and fall of the Empire and Sith.

There is even an intermediate version of the three in the 1997 SE, which would be used as part of any of the versions.

Fans of the first version aren't around because there is no such place to discuss only the 1977 film and its universe. The second two groups however must share, and the two films they discuss not only are not the same but are usually incompatible or contradictory. Lucas is ultimately trying to do to that second group--the OOT fans, us--what happened to the first group of Star Wars-only fans: be gradually squeezed out as members of subsequent versions gain in number and overthrow the old group as the dominant interpretation of the series.
Post
#262100
Topic
Should Yoda Have Been Part of the &quot;Conspiracy&quot;?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/262100/action/topic#262100
Time
Speaking in terms of the I-VI Saga, i think it is indicated that Yoda never believed in eventually using the twins to take on the Emperor. He wants them split up simply so the Emperor cannot get them, with no hint ever given that he has plans for eventually training them. Obi Wan however, perhaps feeling a connection to Luke because he saw so much of Anakin in him, personally oversees his care as a hermit living nearby, and thought that in time Luke could become the great Jedi that his father could have been. Owen of course resents Obi Wan and seperates the two as best he can, and perhaps it can be said that Obi Wan might have believed in a radically unorthodox revision of the Jedi code where Luke could be trained not as a child but as an intelligent young adult. In any case, Obi Wan and Luke don't have substantial contact with one another until ANH, whereupon Obi Wan obviously feels that Luke is at a right age to begin training (as he says of the lightsaber, he wanted him to have it "when he was old enough"--implying that he may indeed be breaking from the child-brainwashing methods of the PT jedi). Luke's relatives are coincidentally killed, leaving Obi Wan to take Luke under his wing finally and begin formal training. After he is killed Obi Wan must felt that, perhaps because his spirits existence in the material world is temporary or limited, that Yoda would be the only choice to make a feasible mentor, so he instructs him to seek out Yoda on Dagobah. Yoda of course never agreed to any of this and was against the idea from the outset, but perhaps because at that point there truely wasn't any other option or hope, he reluctantly took on Luke at the persistence of Obi Wan and Luke.

Thats the way i read the new revision anyway.