yotsuya

act on instinct said:

DrDre said:

The whole scene makes very little sense. It would be much more logical for Reva to present herself as a friendly face, and a representative of the Empire put in charge of bringing Leia to the safety of her parents, in hopes of getting at least some information. All Leia knows is, that she was taken by some pirates, and then apparently rescued by a former Jedi, who themselves are wanted criminals. There’s no subtlety in Reva’s character. She’s just a one note villain, who’s inept at interrogating a little kid, fails to recognize her innate Force ability (which is her job), and wants to torture her for information, she likely doesn’t have. Presenting a friendly face would make the Reva character more interesting, and competent, being able to do more than just yell and scowl.

Glad to see this, that moment also stuck out to me as really Disney-fied like they’re playing to the kids out there who see themselves in little Leia. That’s fun in an interactive theme park setting and ultimately Star Wars is for the kids more than the adults, but for a serious scene the more intense the interrogation got the sillier it was. If Reva handled the situation like you suggested (which is how real interrogations typically go) the whole scene would improve, Reva would have more dimension as a calculated villain instead of her usual one note, and Leia by rejecting her manipulation would reinforce her inner wisdom and even call back her skepticism of Kenobi in episode 2. I get it, the inquisitors are ruthless and it’s sort of been established that force mind reading is Reva’s thing, but in the wrong scene with the wrong character it can (and in my opinion did) go over the top and feel even cheesier than all the last minute saves.

Reva better break out that backstory soon and it better be worth it, right now the more she tries to act scary the less intimidating she gets, the character is becoming a cartoon.

For Reva to take a calm approach to interrogation would be against what they have established for her character. She seems stuck in the bad cop mode (not surprising for an angry inquisitor who has already been established as reckless). It might have made the interrogation more useful.

And the symbol she saw and pulled off the wall was a Jedi symbol, not a rebellion symbol. She’s grilling Leia to see if she has anything on this. The chance of Leia having any useful information (if you look at it logically from Reva’s perspective) is very low. I’m certain that with his close association with the Jedi, Bail Organa is being watched closely. But there is a chance. We already know that Leia doesn’t know anything more than what we have seen. Bail is in on the formation of the Rebellion and isn’t involved with getting the Jedi to safety.

Bail doesn’t move into action until the Death Star changes the game. He doesn’t risk Kenobi again. And likely Leia’s message to Kenobi is very coded in case it falls into the wrong hands. If you watch ANH, Leia knows who Ben Kenobi is. She never questions Luke. So she knew that name. And C-3PO makes a number of false statements. He tells Luke he doesn’t know who Leia is even though one of the first things he says in the film is about Leia. So he is protecting their identities constantly until he knows that Luke is truly an ally. He wasn’t privy to Leia’s instructions to R2, and is obviously confused, but doesn’t reveal anything that we know he knows. And with Rebels, Rogue One and the opening of ANH, we know he knows a lot.

focuspuller was last active less than a month ago. So It would be really nice if he would say something on this project. Several Blade Runner soundtrack projects have come out, but none looked like his promised track list so to my knowledge it has never been finished.

Omni said:

jedi_bendu said:

Omni said:

the first few minutes of this episode were the low point of the series IMO.

I’m surprised you say that as the opening bacta tank scene was my favourite scene in the episode.

Personally I thought it was a weak way to have them connect, but I’m mostly talking about the new gang we meet. Severely underdeveloped characters, that one guy at first hesitates to help only to have an inexplicable change of heart… then there’s Wade who dies at the end and… we’re supposed to feel for him, I guess? Like, the issue isn’t that they’re there, it’s that we’re supposed to care. They’re obviously representing the fight against oppression and the cost of the mission to the point that it shouldn’t matter who they are, but not even the symbolic nature of the role helps that brief storyline to succeed, like it does for me in Rogue One, and it really drags the whole thing. Doesn’t help that the rest of the episode was mostly boring…

I didn’t think we were supposed to care about Wade at all. He’s like Porkins or the other pilots in the original Death Star battle. Sure we care that they die, but there is no connection. The only death there that there was a connection or that were were supposed to care about was Biggs. And even then, only because Luke so obviously did.

Ice said:

Anchorhead said:

Tiny nit-pick; The tracking device has been done. Come up with another way.

I think this is their way to tie into the OT a little; maybe that’s why Leia is so certain that “they let us go” in ANH; she’s seen it happen before.

As we see frequently in this series, Leia knows things. In ANH, the typical torture does not get her to talk. Even Tarkin’s threats don’t get her to spill the beans on the Rebellion. Vader may or may not sense she is strong with the force, but I’ve observed that a lot of what we see in the OT indicates abilities that could be force related. She seems to be able to pick up things from others. The youthful spouting of what she sees may have been tempered by her political training so she may still see a lot of those things, but doesn’t say it like she did when she was 10.

I think the writing of this series so far fits in with the OT very well and really helps bridge a few of the glitches that the PT left us with. Like Leia’s memory of her mother, which could very well be from Bail or Obi-wan.

I am still baffled that anyone thinks this show is poorly done. It is a hit with fans in general and the only reason it will never be as popular as The Mandalorian is that it doesn’t have Baby Yoda (possibly the single most popular character in all of Star Wars). But the production quality of all of them are top notch. I can’t see any issue with the set, costumes, acting, anything.

Vladius said:

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

I’m legit angry. I was willing to go along with the show for 2 episodes and then most of this one, but it’s enough. It’s only marginally better than Book of Boba Fett which is not saying very much.
I don’t know why - I didn’t have high expectations. Maybe it’s because there’s enough stuff that I do like that was unexpectedly good. Any time Obi Wan is actually on screen ranges from decent to great.
But like everyone here is saying, everything looks cheap. Not cheap like the original Star Wars where they’re doing the most with a lower budget, but where they’re doing the least with a higher budget. All the inquisitors look goofy, and not in a good way. The sets are substandard. The directing is straight up bad. I feel bad saying that because Deborah Chow sounded really promising and respectful of the source material, but there’s no other way you would get this kind of sloppy chase sequences and setpieces and parts that drag on for too long.
Other than the editing which is also abysmal. I want to scream at the people making the show to STOP CUTTING AWAY FROM OBI WAN. JUST STOP IT. I don’t want or need to see Leia or Reva or whoever moving through a tunnel, or doing parkour, or walking, or talking, or anything at all. Why, WHY, when you have a show about Obi Wan and Vader meeting again for the first time, and you went to all the effort to bring in Ewan and Hayden, do you think it’s necessary to devote around half (more?) of the screen time to NOTHING? To characters that aren’t even supposed to be there, or exist!
The music is awful. Just so generic it would be better if it weren’t there at all. It’s sad because that’s one of the things Star Wars is known for and they literally had John Williams make an Obi Wan theme for it, and they somehow couldn’t bring themselves to make use of any of the large library of existing music to good effect.

I want to believe that this can be cut down into a good movie. There are certainly enough good things in it, it’s just that they’re surrounded by inquisitors (which I have never liked,) repetitive dialogue, poor chase scenes, and an overall lack of focus.

“Like you trained his father?” Such an awesome scene. Vader being scary, having a castle, and terrorizing the innocent. Great. Obi Wan’s flashbacks and trying to connect with Qui Gon, great. Nar Shadda-esque planet, pretty good. Clone Vietnam vet, cool. Some of the dialogue between Obi Wan and Leia, decent. Obi Wan taking out a bunch of stormtroopers, badass. There are so many nuggets of good things here that have to be dug out, but they shouldn’t have to be.

How does it look cheap? I can’t see that these are obviously sets. The designs are very Star Wars. They aren’t wobbling. So how are they cheap. Is it because they aren’t all crowded with stuff? Not every place in the universe is crowded. I just really don’t get the hate being heaped on this series.

And the pacing is pretty normal series pacing. So I don’t know why you are expecting movie pacing in an extended series. If they wanted movie pacing they would have made a movie. Making a 6 part series gives more time to explore more while telling the same story. It seems some of us like that and some don’t.

I can’t say the music is outstanding, but it also does not interfere. Good incidental music sits in the background and is only noticeable when called for.

No I mean the lighting, the materials used in the costumes and buildings, and the effects. Maybe also the caliber of actors for all the non-Obi Wan, non-Owen, non-Vader characters.

I’m not talking about pacing, I’m talking about what they choose to show or not show, and the way they cut it together. You can have a 6 part series and still have it be focused and interesting. In fact I think that would actually be easier than what they’re doing. (Every show now is trying to be a “prestige” show where there’s many vying factions and individuals with their own agendas, which is where I think the inquisitors come in.) For what it’s worth they did want to make a movie, they only turned it into a show after Solo underperformed and they canceled further spinoff movies.

I’m not seeing anything low production about any of it. Definitely not the sets, lighting, effects, or acting.

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:
the pacing is pretty normal series pacing. So I don’t know why you are expecting movie pacing in an extended series. If they wanted movie pacing they would have made a movie. Making a 6 part series gives more time to explore more while telling the same story. It seems some of us like that and some don’t.

I can’t say the music is outstanding, but it also does not interfere. Good incidental music sits in the background and is only noticeable when called for.

I can totally get why one would enjoy a lot this show, but at some point I cannot accept that the obvious flaws are being excused as “it’s a tv show”, “good incidental music”, etc. TCW has awesome soundtracks, so being a tv show is not an excuse. It’s fracking Star Wars, and we should accept “tv level production” for a Vader v Ben rematch… It’s madness.

Yeah, to me it doesn’t feel like a TV series in production. Pacing maybe, but not production.

Vladius said:

I’m legit angry. I was willing to go along with the show for 2 episodes and then most of this one, but it’s enough. It’s only marginally better than Book of Boba Fett which is not saying very much.
I don’t know why - I didn’t have high expectations. Maybe it’s because there’s enough stuff that I do like that was unexpectedly good. Any time Obi Wan is actually on screen ranges from decent to great.
But like everyone here is saying, everything looks cheap. Not cheap like the original Star Wars where they’re doing the most with a lower budget, but where they’re doing the least with a higher budget. All the inquisitors look goofy, and not in a good way. The sets are substandard. The directing is straight up bad. I feel bad saying that because Deborah Chow sounded really promising and respectful of the source material, but there’s no other way you would get this kind of sloppy chase sequences and setpieces and parts that drag on for too long.
Other than the editing which is also abysmal. I want to scream at the people making the show to STOP CUTTING AWAY FROM OBI WAN. JUST STOP IT. I don’t want or need to see Leia or Reva or whoever moving through a tunnel, or doing parkour, or walking, or talking, or anything at all. Why, WHY, when you have a show about Obi Wan and Vader meeting again for the first time, and you went to all the effort to bring in Ewan and Hayden, do you think it’s necessary to devote around half (more?) of the screen time to NOTHING? To characters that aren’t even supposed to be there, or exist!
The music is awful. Just so generic it would be better if it weren’t there at all. It’s sad because that’s one of the things Star Wars is known for and they literally had John Williams make an Obi Wan theme for it, and they somehow couldn’t bring themselves to make use of any of the large library of existing music to good effect.

I want to believe that this can be cut down into a good movie. There are certainly enough good things in it, it’s just that they’re surrounded by inquisitors (which I have never liked,) repetitive dialogue, poor chase scenes, and an overall lack of focus.

“Like you trained his father?” Such an awesome scene. Vader being scary, having a castle, and terrorizing the innocent. Great. Obi Wan’s flashbacks and trying to connect with Qui Gon, great. Nar Shadda-esque planet, pretty good. Clone Vietnam vet, cool. Some of the dialogue between Obi Wan and Leia, decent. Obi Wan taking out a bunch of stormtroopers, badass. There are so many nuggets of good things here that have to be dug out, but they shouldn’t have to be.

How does it look cheap? I can’t see that these are obviously sets. The designs are very Star Wars. They aren’t wobbling. So how are they cheap. Is it because they aren’t all crowded with stuff? Not every place in the universe is crowded. I just really don’t get the hate being heaped on this series.

And the pacing is pretty normal series pacing. So I don’t know why you are expecting movie pacing in an extended series. If they wanted movie pacing they would have made a movie. Making a 6 part series gives more time to explore more while telling the same story. It seems some of us like that and some don’t.

I can’t say the music is outstanding, but it also does not interfere. Good incidental music sits in the background and is only noticeable when called for.

Dunedain said:

Well, I’ve seen the first 3 episodes now. I was naturally concerned how this series would be handled with Disney involved, but they allowed an overall good job to be done with the Mandalorian in the first two seasons, so I was anticipating it might be good, also. So far, I think it’s going pretty well. Ewan is, as usual, great as Obi-Wan, and shows why Lucas chose him in the first place. He brings real weight and depth to the entire series. You can feel how much pain he’s had go through thinking and dreaming about the events on Naboo and the Clone War, the mistakes, the friends he’s lost in battle, and what happened to Anakin, most of all. That would have to be very hard. The whole Inquisitor thing is sort of ok, but this Reva is really annoying. While she’s endlessly saying she seeks to prove how worthy she is, etc., at the first chance she murders her superior, proving the Grand Inquisitor right about her; a lowly backstabber, no loyalty, no discipline and totally untrustworthy, just in a constant desperate bid for attention.

The confrontation with Darth Vader is quite a moment, Obi-Wan is rather shocked to see what has become of Anakin. And lets just say that Anakin remembers well his devastating defeat at the hands of his Master… And certainly Obi-Wan is feeling rusty after having laid low for years and having zero time for force and lightsaber use and practice. He’s already got his hand-to-hand combat and blaster techniques and marksmanship working well, and I get the feeling when he shakes the rust off fully, look out bad guys… =)

Sometimes I think some of my fellow members are unaware of how cutthroat the dark side is. They burn with anger and they are more than willing to kill each other to get ahead and Vader and Palpatine (and all the Sith before them) encourage it. They want only the strongest and the competition and murder keeps any of them from becoming strong enough to be a danger. So all these questions about why Reva is angry and why she shows no loyalty to the other inquisitors and goes behind their back is perfect writing, acting, and directing for Sith characters. It is brilliantly done. And the visual look is from Rebels so that was already established and adapted to live action. So none of these complaints are really about this show, they are about what has been established in the Star Wars universe that this show is using.

I would not stoop to slinging the accusation of racism at anyone without adequate proof. But Moses Ingram has received a lot of racist abuse and I side with Ewan McGregor and Anson Mount that both the Star Wars and Star Trek fandoms should not tolerate any racism what-so-ever. All I have seen on this thread are complaints of her acting. In any part some might find the acting good and some bad. That is not racism, that is preference. Acting involves decisions on the part of the writers, actors, and directors that some might not care for.

But in other corners fans are not making that complaint but being outright racist. Ewan heard some of them and it broke his heart and he does not consider anyone making such racist based comments to be any sort of Star Wars fan. I don’t either. And it’s bad enough Anson Mount spoke for the Star Trek community in her support.

And again, I have seen nothing in the above comments to suggest racism from any member here. I would be very disappointed if that was the case.

ken-obi said:

yotsuya said:

It is shame that this series, so anticipated for years, has so low production values so far.

I don’t get how this has a low production value. That just baffles me. I’ve watched the first episode 3 times and as good if not better than any episode of The Mandelorian. I get it if you don’t like it or don’t like some of their choices, but blasting the production quality of something this well made just blows my mind.

I hardly blasted the production quality. I said it was a shame that the production values for this is so low for the episodes we have seen this far.

Me saying that blew your mind? Really?
 

Okay, then I’ll try and expand upon what I said. To me it looks cheap in places, certain scenes in the desert, the rooftop fight, Revan spinning and twirling her way through it, and the fake Jedi’s “office”. I found them to look cheap and uninteresting. Costuming, editing, cinematography and camera placement also looked off. That could The Void, or other factors, but they were jarring to me and appeared cheaply done too.

To me The Mandalorian looks superior to this from a production standpoint. This series so far is on a par with BOBF, and not the quality episodes featuring The Mandalorian. That new Andor teaser looked to have superior production values than this (though only a teaser, obviously).

So far Kenobi has given me the feel of a modern “sy-fy” sci-fi show shot on a budget and tight schedule out in Canada. Not a well-funded limited series by Disney+ with the technical know-how and experience of Lucasfilm, who have re-tooled the story (as both a film and TV series) and spent some serious time on this show. To me this is a flagship series, or should be. Bridging the Prequel and Original eras, and possibly the fans of those trilogies, with a much anticipated story of one many fans’ more endearing characters, played by an actor that even the most ardent Prequel critic would acknowledge did a solid job with the work given him in the Prequel films.

The Kenobi story is compelling, the execution and feel of the show so far is not. The acting is strong, Inquisitors apart, as originally posted this is surprising given the quality of performances on their other projects.

Again this just for the two episodes we have seen so far. I’ll gladly eat humble pie if the remaining episodes have better production values to them.

If there is a “two-hander” episode with just Ewan and Hayden talking and building up to future confrontation then the production values won’t matter as much. The story, the acting, the build-up is what really matters here in this series. Yet so far, when it is opened up to set the scene, or showcase the backdrops, or attempting to show off (like Revan on the rooftops) then that is where it is suffering production-wise.

But that’s all just my opinion. I’m glad you are enjoying it, and others too. I hope that goes for the future episodes of this as well.

Again, I don’t get it. So a big empty room is somehow not realistic? I just walked through a functioning location today that looked very similar (except it was white and brightly lit). I think you just don’t like their choice and instead of just saying you don’t like what they did, you are insulting their abilities. I don’t think that is fair. I definitely don’t agree. I had no problem with any of the things you point out and I definitely don’t think they point to any flaws in the production. Sets do not have to be crowded to be realistic. I definitely don’t get the “syfy out of canada” feel like you describe. I get more of the big hollywood feel with a big budget.

Dirge said:

• Leia’s chase scenes are ridiculous (she toddles around at three miles per hour and this somehow leads to extended chase scenes with grown adults). And speaking of Leia, while it’s fine that she is ultra-perceptive (like when she senses her cousin is afraid of his father and such), the long spiels she goes on are far too mature for what is still a very small child.

Haven’t been around 10-year-olds lately, have you?

ken-obi said: Lucasfilm have realised they won’t often hit those storytelling and “magic in a bottle” highs of the Original Trilogy, and instead will give more us more new stories done in a more uninspiring and “formula scifi tv” series, with the occasional sprinkling of old Star Wars magic here and there.

I agree that not every project can hit the magic and achieve epic popularity. Disney had known this for a very long time. It isn’t a new thing for them.

It is shame that this series, so anticipated for years, has so low production values so far.

I don’t get how this has a low production value. That just baffles me. I’ve watched the first episode 3 times and as good if not better than any episode of The Mandelorian. I get it if you don’t like it or don’t like some of their choices, but blasting the production quality of something this well made just blows my mind.

I decided to watch the two episodes again in light of the few negative comments in this thread. I have to say I disagree with all of them. Two excellently made episodes, fantastic acting, fantastic casting, fantastic writing, fantastic sets and costumes. I really don’t understand the negative comments. This feels like the world between Eps III and IV. More than Solo or Rebels. I don’t think this series will have the massive impact of The Mandalorian, but only because there is no Baby Yoda. This series really ties in and explores the characters of the surrounding movies (in just the first two episodes!) and promises to be quite a ride. Can’t wait to see Hayden as Vader. Just what we have seen so far the suit is so much better than Ep III.

Anchorhead said:

That’s my take as well. He’s newly on the run/in hiding. Fifteen years from now (in universe), he’ll most likely be much more settled in to his hermit existence.

This is set in 9 BBY, so he doesn’t have 15 more years on Tatooine, only 9.

SparkySywer said:

Palpatine can be behind as much of the PT as you want so long as you’re okay with writing outright fanfiction

Not if you are only looking at the PT films.

Well, I think the inquisitors are supposed to be over the top and annoying. But deadly.

Anyway, my favorite part of this is Leia. That young actress not only looks like Carrie Fisher, but she is acting like Carrie Fisher. Perhaps more than she is acting like Leia. But we also see that Bail and Breha are trying to mold this young firecracker into the Leia she will be. I think they are trying to honor Carrie by how wild young Leia is. And if you think she is too short for the character, you haven’t been among kids lately. In any grade they very greatly in height. Up to about a foot. And since Carrie’s Leia was very short, her being short is in line. Vivien Lyra Blair is presently 10.

exitzero said:

I liked it first two episodes so far.
Though it felt out of place that Reva knew that Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker.

Probably character background/development spoilers. There were other lines of dialog that to me indicate she is more than she seems.

Cthulhunicron said:

I enjoyed both of these episodes. Moses Ingram is awesome in this role, she’s already becoming one of my favorite characters.

Also, i really really doubt they’re just gonna de-canonize Rebels.

I agree

I have to say I loved everything about this. Young Leia most of all.

The story picks up where I expected it to, with Obi-wan making his way on Tatooine and keeping an eye on Luke. How he spends his time is fittingly dull one for a Jedi-in-hiding. From there the story was engaging. The Cinematography was outstanding. The acting perfect. In many scenes I was drawn in by the amazing colors. Some of the city vistas were jaw dropping. Some were quite muted, but the Tatooine scenes felt right and felt like they fit with the original. Owen felt older and closer to the original.

I have a couple of minor nitpicks, but they didn’t impact my enjoyment in the slightest.

I am so enjoying all these new shows. I can’t wait to see what Andor and Ahsoka are like. And outside the Star Wars universe, there is Picard and Strange New Worlds which are also both excellent. These short format series (very British) are really great. It is fun to see how different teams handle the material.

CarboniteSolo said:

yotsuya said:

Servii said:

JadedSkywalker said:

The celibate monk thing goes back to the 1974 screenplay but was dropped in the actual movies and the EU. Only to be recanonized contexualized in the prequel. Like midi clorians being too similar to the Kaiburr Crystal as a way to describe the force. its something that should have not been revisited.

My opinion.

The weird thing is, I recall an interview from the early 2000’s where George stated that Jedi actually aren’t technically celibate. They’re just not allowed to have emotional relationships, but it’s technically okay for them to have sex. Which is weirder to me. I need to find where he said that.

The thing is that I feel the PT movies make it clear that this harsh Jedi way with no attachments is directly responsible for Anakin’s fall. That and they are blind to Palpatine and his influence. I think that is the real point of Qui-gon. While he is as aloof as any Jedi in the PT, he is not as harsh as Mace. He’s not as bound by tradition as Yoda. He was a student of Dooku who fell to the dark side. Obi-wan comments that he would be on the council if he just conformed. It is that non-conformity that I think Anakin needed to be successful. He needed the tools to deal with his issues where the main Jedi order was telling him to not have issues. It is like telling a drug adict to quit vs. sharing with them the tools to do it. I think Qui-gon is the only Jedi who had the tools Anakin needed. I thought that even before I heard that this was how George was thinking (Duel of the Fates - so it dates to TPM).

Agreed, and I think Palpatine sensed and foreseen that, so he made sure Darth Maul killed the master Jedi Qui-Gon.

I think Palpatine is behind more in the PT than it appears.

Servii said:

JadedSkywalker said:

The celibate monk thing goes back to the 1974 screenplay but was dropped in the actual movies and the EU. Only to be recanonized contexualized in the prequel. Like midi clorians being too similar to the Kaiburr Crystal as a way to describe the force. its something that should have not been revisited.

My opinion.

The weird thing is, I recall an interview from the early 2000’s where George stated that Jedi actually aren’t technically celibate. They’re just not allowed to have emotional relationships, but it’s technically okay for them to have sex. Which is weirder to me. I need to find where he said that.

The thing is that I feel the PT movies make it clear that this harsh Jedi way with no attachments is directly responsible for Anakin’s fall. That and they are blind to Palpatine and his influence. I think that is the real point of Qui-gon. While he is as aloof as any Jedi in the PT, he is not as harsh as Mace. He’s not as bound by tradition as Yoda. He was a student of Dooku who fell to the dark side. Obi-wan comments that he would be on the council if he just conformed. It is that non-conformity that I think Anakin needed to be successful. He needed the tools to deal with his issues where the main Jedi order was telling him to not have issues. It is like telling a drug adict to quit vs. sharing with them the tools to do it. I think Qui-gon is the only Jedi who had the tools Anakin needed. I thought that even before I heard that this was how George was thinking (Duel of the Fates - so it dates to TPM).

Servii said:

Had Qui-gon Jinn lived to train Anakin, he would have had a chance.

We never hear Qui-gon say or show that he’s against the no-attachment rule. That’s just fan conjecture. I’m still not convinced that Lucas viewed the Jedi’s rules on attachment as an unhealthy thing.

We know that Qui-gon often went against the council. So he was a bit of a rebel. He may have been able to teach Anakin to handle his attachment issues. I agree that Lucas included a subtle feeling that the Jedi rules on attachment were wrong, but there is nothing specific. But he did tell Dave Filoni that had Qui-gon lived, Anakin wouldn’t have turned to the dark side. The light saber battle in TPM is about Anakin’s fate. Qui-gon died and with him the chance for Anakin to stay on the light side.

JadedSkywalker said:

It is poorly executed. But the idea is the Jedi lost by fighting the war in the first place it corrupted them. And Anakin sees them breaking their oaths and codes just like Palpatine warned him they would. Was he wrong that the Jedi feared to lose power, not in the way the Jedi are portrayed in those films. Everything they do is because they are manipulated by fear, pawns on the chessboard of Sidious.

Anakin is manipulated by the fear of loss. Because he lost his mother. Because he didn’t want to lose Padme. And the Jedi tell him to let go of his fear and let her die. Or at least that is the gist of what Yoda said. Its greedy to love someone so possessively says Lucas. That is Anakin’s fault. Its all so humdrum and laughably inarticulate.

I don’t think that is what Lucas is saying. I see everything in the PT as pointing to the Jedi being corrupted by their opposition to the Sith. They have shunned everything that might lead down that path. That includes teaching young students like Anakin how to deal with the temptation. Their answer is don’t. No instructions on how, just don’t do it. Those are stupid instructions. Had Qui-gon Jinn lived to train Anakin, he would have had a chance. But Obi-wan was not as wise and did not see how to teach that lesson. Yoda said fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering and suffering leads to the dark side. He did not say how to deal with fear so that it does not become anger. Or any of the other steps. So we watch Anakin as his fear in Ep I becomes anger in Ep II, which becomes hate in Ep III and finally suffering at the end of Ep III. And the fact the Palpatine has been his mentor all those years doesn’t help matters.

AspiringCreator said:

yotsuya said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

Luke was always the son of a Jedi. Jedi didn’t start out being monks. That is a prequel thing. I think it is important to see both that any old nobody can be a Jedi, and that the force can run strong in a particular family. Anakin was a nobody. Luke was his son. Rey is Palpatine’s granddaughter (or daughter of his clone). Nothing can negate that Anakin and broom boy are nobodies. Most Jedi came from nobodies because the prequels made them monks - no attachments means no kids so no Jedi bloodlines. So there is a lot more to the saga that says a no-one can become the chosen one than that you have to be part of a bloodline.

I would believe this… if it wasn’t for the PT and several pieces of Star Wars media conflicting with this. Anakin for instance is not a nobody. Sure when we first see him in terms of the chronology he’s just a little slave boy on a desert planet and if we’re counting when we first see him in the franchise he’s just some big scary guy in armor… but TPM reveals he was born via virgin birth and the PT makes it clear he’s supposed to be the Chosen One, not the guy that a prophecy assumes is going to be the Chosen One but the actual Chosen One and while we can totally split hairs and mention how many Jedi are nobody? No one who’s actually important in the movies is a nobody and even if you want to try and argue that? There’s still the problem of Anakin being so important and so integral via this story that it makes it clear that if your name ain’t Skywalker? You are not someone who has a place in this story. And that’s not even getting into the EU which is loaded with characters that are just related to people we know for no reason other than making connections or the story just focusing on the same people. That’s why it was so important and meaningful when TLJ bucked the trend by having Rey revealed to be no one. We did this story before where the main character was secretly related to someone else and we did the story before that about that guy’s father and how he’s the most super awesome important dude in the Star Wars galaxy so it was genuinely refreshing to get a Star Wars story that showed that our main character was nobody. Then TROS came along, gave her the Palpatine heritage and even noted that “Oh you don’t just have power, you have his power.” which is just so forced and hackneyed. The Force is interesting to me because the OT made it about believing in yourself, it’s a mystical that surrounds and binds every living being together and with ESB, it gives the impression that anyone can use the Force if they clear their mind and set their heart to it. Hell it’s what makes the idea of “Force-sensitives” make sense because that tells me anyone can use the Force, it’s just some are more sensitive to it. But when you have the concept of midichlorians, say Anakin is the Chosen One and just keep making main characters who are connected in some way to those we know? People can say then all they want that Jedi can still be no one but there’s an asterisk there because all the important main characters have to be connected and somebody.

I totally don’t see it that way.