Damn… very bad timing. I wish I could afford it. My quest is to have theatrical versions of all the films and this is the only one that was never released in any form. Just the very bad bootleg.
So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.
Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.
That’s fine, and I would be interested to know why you love it so much. I consider TLJ to be a mixed bag of some great ingredients, and plenty of undercooked ones. Overall it’s a visually stunning, somewhat bloated, but entertaining movie in my view when seen on its own terms, but the worst Star Wars movie to date for me on a number of levels. However, I do think we’ve not seen enough positive critical analysis of TLJ in this thread.
Where I come from is seeing the Star Wars saga as a series of movies done a bit out of order but done in a way that makes them feel more like the numerical order rather than the production order. The OT is very gritty. Very 70’s. But at the same time, very 50’s in that Lucas emulated the great 50’s epics and samurai films. When he went back and did the PT, he gave it more of a classic era feel. Very 30’s and 40’s. The ST therefore should feel new and in a more modern style. I think Kennedy should hold a tighter rein on the directors and not give them as much leeway. These two movies of the ST have turned out very different. Yet I think the first two movies of the OT were very different. It was Return of the Jedi that melded them into a unified whole. IX could still mold the ST unto a unified whole if it is done right (this is Abrams we are talking about so I have my doubts).
Within that, I find TFA to be the odd movie. I feel Abrams was not the right choice and that his first outing was too safe. Rian Johnson comes in and he treats it like any movie and let’s the story take him where it wants to go. He versed himself in the meat that fed George’s creativity - war movies, classics, samurai cinema. His prior films are very much like Irvin Kershner’s. He wrote the script before TFA came out - before the fans started analyzing and predicting.
When I look at TLJ that way, I don’t see something that doesn’t fit. I see something that fits incredibly well. I can see where the story may be going. To me that makes for a great middle chapter. I found the crafting of the Rey/Luke plot to be outstanding. He took our hero and his TFA established trials and tapped into the Luke of the OT and his flaws and accentuated them based on a horrible event. And in that character he gave Rey exactly what her character needed. She didn’t need just a trainer, but someone to make her face her problems. At the same time, her reaction to Luke was exactly what he needed to shake him out of his funk. So on both sides there is character growth. Rey faces the reality that her parents abandoned her and that they were no one significant (we are never told they did not have any connection with the force, just that they were nobody). Luke faces his failure with Ben/Kylo and the very real possibility that Rey genuinely needs him and that he could help her. Both characters grow.
Poe was a throw away character in TFA. He’s supposed to be the best pilot in the Resistance, but other than that he had no character journey at all. In TLJ, he starts out as the same brash pilot and is knocked down by first Leia and then Holdo for not thinking things through. Both of them see Poe’s potential (a little bit of dialog between them) and he gets the lesson they were trying to teach him - that to be a leader means sometimes pulling back and being cautious.
Finn starts out still running. In TFA he was running from the First Order and latched onto Rey. In TLJ he is still running and latched onto Rey until Rose opens his eyes to the cause of the Resistance and Finn takes it on as his own. His death trying to destroy the cannon would be also destroy his character development in the trilogy so Rose saving his life is not only a necessary thing, but what she says and the following events solidify the Finn has grown and is a new person.
The character growth of all the characters puts them in place to be who they need to be for IX. That is the point of this film. It is the middle chapter. It isn’t supposed to tell the start or end of the tale, but the middle. It bridges between the opening chapter and the closing chapter while still telling a significant story. When you analize it compared to TESB, there are sizable differences, but one major similarity - both serve as the middle and do it well. That is something the PT is lacking. It has two starts. TPM is a beginning on two levels. The beginning of the saga as a whole and the beginning of the first trilogy. It is just an introduction to Anakin’s story which doesn’t really start until ATOC when he is truly one of the main characters. That film failed on many levels and brings down the entire PT with its failures. I think TFA has similar issues. They were just obscured because we didn’t know where the story might go. In my ordering of the saga films, I think TFA is actually the worst movie. Sure the character vignettes are great, but that does not make a good Star Wars film. TLJ digs into the characters and challenges them. Each character changes as a result and is closer to who they need to be in IX.
As a former RPG player of the West End RPG, I found nothing about TLJ to raise an eyebrow. The force powers were in line with the Star Wars extended canon (as in all the source books about the Jedi). Abrams stated that one thing he wanted was to make the force something that anyone can use - the feeling he had back in 77 when he watched the first film. RJ took that and emphasized that. Clone Wars and Rebels have had a similar emphasis. Sure, the Skywalker line is strong, but Jedi pop up everywhere before the Skywalkers came around. The PT Jedi don’t seem to procreate, leading virtually monastic lives. So the Jedi before TPM weren’t relying on family lineages for strong Jedi, but common people. Nobodies who happened to be strong in the force. To me the description Lucas and Hamill gave of Luke’s role in the PT was always going to be what we just got. I’d dare to say that RJ made Luke far more significant than Lucas had planned. I think Luke dying was always part of the PT.
In point after point, TLJ is a perfect ST middle chapter from my point of view. I was enthralled the first time I watched it and I have yet to see anything I object to. All that really means is that RJ and I are on the same page for what this chapter should do. I was disappointed by TFA, but not TLJ. I also wasn’t disappointed with Rogue One or Solo. So out of 7 movies made since the OT, I find the last three to be the best. To me they are the closest to the OT vision that I’ve lived with. I think ATOC and TFA are the worst with TPM and ROTS in the middle.
So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.
Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.
You aren’t alone. I consider it the best since the OT. I think I finally have to rank it higher than Rogue One because I want to watch it more. I love all the story arcs and the very excellent character development.
I don’t mean to be critical, but you missed a hell of a lot of shots from the Director’s Cut. All the redone shots of the crew exiting from the top of the saucer and walking accross the bridge of hexagons. it seems like every shot I went to check was still the original and not the DC version. So this isn’t really the director’s cut, but a mix.
Rise of the Rebellion would work
Jedi powers, as with any skill, take time to master once learned. Raw talent can be disguised as mastery, but can still be refined and improved. Rey is not at a point where she can be considered a Jedi. She saw how Kylo did things and copied him. And now that I think about it, Kylo trying to force her to reveal things and her fighting back and reading his mind, could have resulted in her absorbing some of his Jedi training. But it means she knows these things are possible. So not just her life on Jakku, but her reading of Kylo’s mind has given her far more than Luke had to start with. I mean, it was after that point in the movie that she started doing things. She pulled the memory of Darth Vader out of his mind and how he wanted to be like him. As to how she managed that, I would have to say raw talent and instinct. Kylo started probing her and she could feel it (you can see it on her face) and she was able to block him and then turn around the do the same to him. He wasn’t ready for it and was quite surprised (again, you could see it on his face) and failed to block her.
But while Rey shows is that she has learned these force skills, she has not mastered any of them. She has used them once or twice and needs guidance on how to use them. Not just how to literally use the powers, but the ethics of using them. Only when you have the ethics down and the philosophy of being a Jedi can you be considered a Jedi. Until then she is just a very powerful Padawn like Anakin. But to be perfectly honest, I believe that JJ Abrams took one huge shortcut with Rey. She was created as a Jedi from the start. She has ethics, can fight, can fly, and has disciple. Even without force powers, her character was basically a Jedi already. She just needs to complete what she needs on top of who she is. Her arc in TFA was beaking from Jakku and being willing to grow. Her arc in TLJ is facing that her parents were nobody special in the galactic scheme of things and that they abandoned her. Luke is in TLJ, who she needed to break her dependence on others. Rather than wait for Luke to change his mind, she takes the initiative and steals the Jedi texts and leaves to teach herself. From where she was at the start, that is a huge growth for her character. Yeah, the force seems to come easy for her, but other things aren’t so easy and that is what her story is.
Plus as was already stated Luke learned some tricks without any training as well. Who taught him to pull the Lightsaber out of the snow in the cave on hoth? Sure wasn’t Ben. All Ben was shown doing was shooting at him with a remote, which he also seemingly picked up blocking on his own with Ben just giving some general musing about reaching out and such. And he sure seems to have picked up quite a few skills by the start of Return of the Jedi that he didn’t have any the end of ESB and as far as I know he never went back to degobah for more training.
my understanding of Luke pulling the lightsaber out of the snow in Hoth in TESB is: he was completely hopeless and desperate and basically reached out to the force, his only hope. i think he felt the lightsaber and had no idea that he’d be able to pull it using the force, but that he decided to reach out to it with the force nonetheless, simply trusting the force not sure what was going to happen. that’s why it’s such a powerful moment to me. it’s a moment where he believing in the force manages to get himself saved, by doing something incredible, which was pulling the lightsaber out of the snow.
not sure if i was clear enough but i watched a video at some point where the guy worded the way i feel perfectly. i’ll look for it in the future.
and for people saying that Luke mastered blaster deflection within minutes: i think he succeeded at reaching out and stretching out with his feelings to the point of almost seeing the remote, like he and Ben say, which is the very very first baby step one must take. that’s not even close to mastering the skill. the kids in AotC are doing the very same thing he was doing to improve their affinity with the force and i think they did that for hours and days and weeks until they were close to perfect, or totally in line with the force.
plus, Han said in the very same scene Luke deflected three blaster bolts that “good against the remote is one thing. good against the living, is something else”, to which no one replies anything contrary, meaning that everyone agrees with what he said.
so yeah, my interpretation is that that scene was just to show that Luke was starting to tap into the force and was starting to have a new understanding of the world because of the force. not that he picked up the skill of deflecting blaster bolts, which i don’t think he did.
and it’s absurd to me to say that he used the force more than as a guide for his instincts and feelings in the trench run when he blew up the death star.
My take on this is that this is a skill that is highly useful, but not easy to master. First, you deflect the blaster bolt. And I think Han was speaking out of ignorance so I don’t take his words to mean much. If the force surrounds all living things, then a person with a gun should be as easy to sense as a remote. The gun itself as easy as the remote. But stopping the blaster bolt is just the first step. If you want to master the skill, you need to be able to direct the deflected bolt to use as a return attack. So first you perfect this in practice, then in a more real world practice, then in the real world. So far Rey hasn’t done much practicing and this is a skill she hasn’t even seen or attempted yet.
People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument (any argument) that in this case is on incredibly shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close). Like Luke in ESB, she ran in unprepared and gave Snoke everything he wanted. The only reason she came out alive was because Kylo’s actions, which, unlike ROTJ, weren’t because of the hero’s pleading (which didn’t work in this case).
No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.
Well, I disagree. What demons does she have to overcome either literally or figuratively, that she hasn’t already? How can she grow? Luke passed on the batton to her showing none of a master’s reservations, being confident she will become the next Jedi. Even Yoda makes a statement that echos the one he made to Luke in ROTJ, where he says there’s nothing in the tree, that the girl Rey doesn’t already possess, which should be taken both literally, and figuratively, I believe. TLJ’s ending feels more like the conclusion of a trilogy to many for a reason, and this is examplified by the way Rey is put on a pedestal having passed her trials, and saved the day.
Um… it is clear from the conversation between Yoda and Luke that Rey needs more training. Very clear. Yes, Luke is confident she will become the next Jedi, but not on her own. And when Yoda mentions the contents of the tree it is because he knows it is empty. I would say Rey is padawn level at this point. Having the powers but none of the wisdom of a Jedi. This did not feel even remotely like the conclusion to anything. Everything is up in the air. The arc for this movie for each character finished, but the overall arc the story is taking is hanging out there waiting for completion. TLJ left me with questions about if the First Order is going to succeed in taking over the Republic? If enough worlds and system will fight back. If the legends of the Jedi and Luke’s sacrifice on Crait will make a difference and relight the spark. Will this spill into galactic war or will this stay confined? Will the Jedi and Republic rise from this?
How you get this being a finale with Rey a full Jedi on a pedestal is beyond me.
Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.
Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?
Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.
Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.
That doesn’t make her a Jedi.
Right.
Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.
After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.
Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.
But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.
Yes, but like I said before, those high power levels were previously only attainable in two ways, the quick and easy path, where you lose your soul, or reaching a zen point. There’s a reason Luke shouldn’t have faced Vader in TESB. He wasn’t at the zen point yet, and so he also didn’t have the high power level to defeat him. Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. Luke’s arc culminates in ROTJ with him reaching those high power levels, facing Vader and the Emperor, whilst believing Vader can be turned, ultimately leading to Luke rejecting the dark side, and he thus has the right to call himself a Jedi. Rey’s arc culminates in TLJ with her reaching those high power levels, facing Kylo and the Snoke, whilst believing Kylo can be turned, ultimately leading to Rey rejecting the dark side, and she isn’t a Jedi apparently. The confrontation in Snoke’s throne room delibirately echos ROTJ with characters expressing the same sentiments, and in some cases the same dialogue. Whilst Rey may have failed to redeem Ben Solo, she otherwise passed the same test, that Luke did in ROTJ, that made him worthy of being a Jedi. The irony here is that the same arguments, that were used to argue against Rey’s high power levels, which are rejected by TLJ fans, are now being used to argue she cannot be a Jedi, because that’s apparently a bridge too far. Well I say, if she can reach those high power levels in days, pass the test of facing up to evil, and reject the apple from the tree, telling the devil to stuff it, she can call herself a Jedi.
Ah, but we have a greater window into the ways of the Jedi than just the 10 movies to date. We have two Animated TV series, which are considered canon by TPTB. Each padawan is tested in a unique way that is customized to test their weaknesses. What Luke faced in ROTJ was not a fair test, but it was the only option open and it did the job. Rey would have to be tested on her weaknesses. The test is never about Jedi powers but about decisions. Anakin was probably passed too early with too easy a test. Just because Rey faced Snoke and rejected the dark side does not mean that should be her test. I didn’t feel she was even tempted.
But what does canon say a Jedi is. Obi-wan says this, “For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.” That is much more than powers. Yoda says this, “A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things.” Again, more than powers. So just because Rey learns the powers easily does not mean she is a Jedi. She has had no training before Ach-to. And what Luke did, was not much more than what Obi-wan did for him. Rey already had the serious mind that Yoda spoke of. She is the exact opposite of how Yoda describes Luke. She never dreamed of adventure, she just wanted her family to come back for her. She took her work seriously where Luke didn’t and preferred to waste time with his friends. But Rey is not a Jedi yet. A Jedi is more than just a powerful force user. That is canon.
Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.
Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?
Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.
Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.
That doesn’t make her a Jedi.
Right.
Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.
After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.
Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.
You are right. That is why I’ve been saying her life on Jakku provided the training she needed. Ignoring the possibility that life can teach you what you need before you actually need it is ignoring a very real occurance. What I do every day right now at work, I learned how to do by accident years ago. I literally fell into the job I have now because of things I’d done years before working for my current employer. And we are talking about a fictional character in a fictional world in a story based on mythic heroes so having a character who has life experiences that prepared them for their journey is natural. You are maintaining the the skills a Jedi need are unique and I am saying they probably aren’t. You need to believe in yourself and trust your abilities (at least that is what I’ve always understood from Yoda and Obi-wan’s lessons - which are mirrored in Samurai training). Rey shows that she has learned those lessons already. Luke had not. What we need to be asking is what is Rey’s journey in this trilogy. She has the disciple, the force skills come easy for her, so those are just tools she needs. Her demons relate to being abandoned by her parents, needing guidance, both in general and what it is to be a Jedi. It is more than having these amazing powers. Powers do not a Jedi make.
Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.
Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?
Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.
Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.
That doesn’t make her a Jedi.
Right.
Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.
Nice point
Lucas changed his own rules with each new movie he made. If new creators aren’t allowed to expand our understanding of the universe as Lucas did, why even make new films?
exactly. they should never have made new films period.
Lucas had decided to do treatments for the sequels so this trilogy is his doing even if he isn’t doing more than advise them. Abrams and Kasdan met with Lucas to go over what and was not possible with the force so if you don’t like the result, I suggest you take up with GL himself. He okayed that aspect of what they had planned.
what does this have to do with what i said? i said the ST should never have been made since its idea was abandoned in the 80s, not that it should’ve been made by Lucas.
and we can’t be sure of his involvement in the making of the ST, nothing has been confirmed. some sources say that TFA was somewhat inspired by his treatments but he claimed right after (or right before) TFA’s release that JJ and friends had thrown his ideas in the trash can, so who knows.
Disney threw out the idea of using Lucas’s treatments before JJ signed on. Kathleen Kennedy has said they used his treatments as a starting point and then changed things. Some concept art was done on his treatments and some has been released. Ach-To was his idea and so was the female student, though he would have had her be younger (one reason given that Disney threw it out). Abrams has been quoted that he (and I think Kasdan) quized Lucas on what was possible or not. A new report says Lucas helped go over the story/script before it was finished. But Lucas did the treatments right before the sale to sweeten the deal and Disney bought it and decided to the the ST because of Lucas. So he is at fault for us getting the ST and he did the treatment that the ST is somewhat based on.
Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.
Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?
Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.
Rey has mastered every skill that every Jedi in the first 6 films exhibited. She did most of this within 30 minutes of having the Force Awakened.
-Force pull
-Mind reading
-Manipulation
-Levitation of objects
-Seeing the Future
-Mastery of lightsaberOther than Force push,Force Ghost and this new projection thing Luke did, I can’t think of anything we have seen a JEDI do before that she hasn’t done.
And it is ok if she ends up being the greatest force user of all time. It is ok if she does new and exciting things with the Force. But as a viewer, in my opinion, she has to have ‘earned it’ narratively somehow. Either through a forgotten past or some other yet unseen reasonable explanation. Otherwise, using the Force isn’t a practice, a focus or a skill. It is a super power. And Rey is essentially Shazaam learning what new things she can do because she said the words “The Force”.
using the force for targeting
force communication
force jumping
force running
surviving poison gas
force choking
putting someone to sleep
catching force lighting
deflecting blaster fire
… just to list the ones that come to mind.
As a side note, all the force powers seen after ROTJ (as in since 1983) have mostly come from the Role-Playing game. All the powers in the PT definitely. The new projection power that Luke showed is from a Jedi book published a few years ago.
And let’s not forget that the Jedi Academy is a school. They come as children and the Jedi have to teach them literally everything. Reading, writing, math, science, history, as well as the Jedi powers, Jedi code, law, diplomacy, lightsaber combat, hand to hand combat, leadership, tactics, technology, piloting, driving, etc. Being a Jedi in the Old Republic is so much more than lifting rocks. But when you start ticking things off, a lot of that can be learned elsewhere. In the PT we never see Jedi powers taught. We see some younglings practicing with a lightsaber (an indication of how elementary what Luke is learning in ANH is) and we see two padawan accompanying their masters on missions. By that stage they have learned all their classroom lessions and are doing their apprenticeship in the field. In the OT we see one lesson with Obi-wan for deflecting blaster bolts and then lessons with Yoda levitating rocks (perfecting what Luke had done earlier in the Wampa cave without any instruction). That is all we know. Anything else is guess work. Rey went to Luke expecting training to manage and perfect her use of what she had learned from Kylo Ren, but Luke only gave her the basics. So she took the texts and left. Oh, from kind of a throw away line, evidently Ben Solo was the same type of natural she is.
So I really don’t understand this insistance that this violates the previous 6 films. I also don’t understand how it is Rian Johnson’s fault when the character was created this by JJ Abrams. Rian gave her a nice arc about facing her parentage and being rejected by Luke and accepted by Kylo, but she can’t join Kylo. He did not give her a bunch of new force powers on top of what she already had.
They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.
I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)
So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.
So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).
The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.
Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.
Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.
Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon it. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow when his life depended on it. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for years, whilst also being trained by Yoda.
Yeah, from what Yoda said in TESB, Luke hadn’t been studying. Dabbling, but not studying. He had very little to go one. A couple of things from Obi-wan about instinct and trusting the force, but not enough to do anything. And in TESB, Luke is in that “look what I’ve learned” phase before the master swats him down. Vader played with him in TESB. The best Luke could do was a glancing blow on Vader’s armor. I would say Luke trained for 2-months and the rest of what he did can hardly be called training. And it hadn’t done him much good since he couldn’t lift the X-wing. Meanwhile, you forget that Rey was in a school of a different sort on Jakku. You ignore that not all lessons can be learned in a formal environment. You give Luke credit for the two tiny lessons Ben gave him, but none for the time that Rey spent on Jakku. Yes, I am suggesting kind of a Karate Kid type training where learning to wax a car and paint a fence turns out to be training for martial arts. But what the force requires is faith. But what can be clearly seen, is that whatever prerequisite for learning force skills and making use of them that Rey learned on Jakku and Luke had some very counter productive life lessons on Tatooine. Obi-wan and Yoda had to overcome how Luke was raised. Rey does not have that problem. She has other issues. She didn’t see her parents in the cave, she saw no one but herself. Luke saw himself in Vader. And according to the great Miyamoto Musashi, if you are a skilled fighter, you should be able to pick up any weapons. Finn picked up the lightsaber and did a passable job against Kylo. Rey was doing a passable job until Kylo basically paused and told her to use the force and she did and she beat him. She then used the lightsaber as effortlessly as she had her staff. Your argument makes a lot of assumptions. I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.
Yes, I know you’re the only person here dealing with facts. You’re the only objective person in the room, and the only person capable of correctly interpreting Lucas’ movies. Heck, even Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His point of view doesn’t fit your narrative, so he must be talking nonsense. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but you really invite these reactions with statements like: “I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.” We can disagree about the interpretations of movies, but I really can’t stand this “my opinion is more objective than yours” attitude.
Regardless of the rest of it, Lucas most definitely either talks nonsense, or lies, or both, when discussing his creation.
I agree he is not the most consistent person in the world, and he too has been known to retroactively claim certain ideas where there from the beginning, however the idea that you have to study and train to be a Jedi has been in the movies since TESB. The PT introduced Jedi Temple’s where people study for over a decade before they could call themselves a Jedi Knight. So, if someone then claims there’s clear evidence in Lucas’ films, that you can just pick up these skills on the fly, I find that a very unlikely interpretation of events. I might have said it is objectively wrong, but then I don’t deal in fact, only opinion.
All the training we see is to perfect skills and to indoctrinate in philosophy. Repetition until it is instinctual. But as we see with Luke, some of those lessons (instinctual piloting) can come naturally. Also, a classic Jedi is the guardian of peace and justice in the galaxy so they have to also be trained in diplomacy, law, and anything else they need to do their job. Luke has none of that. He has hours with Obi-wan and weeks or months with Yoda. He has 3 years on his own after Obi-wan and can barely managed to pick up his lightsaber when his life depends on it. But I bet his piloting skills are better than ever. He only has 1 year after training with Yoda before we see him in ROTJ. So that is 4 years as opposed to the 10 years his father had or the 15 to 20 that Obi-wan had. Rey needs training, she wants Luke to train her. She knows she is not where she should be and there is more to learn. She is not a super Jedi by any means, she just finds tapping into the force easy. A Jedi is much more than force powers. It has elsewhere been established that non-Jedi can have force powers.
They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.
I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)
So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.
So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).
The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.
Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.
Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.
Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon it. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow when his life depended on it. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for years, whilst also being trained by Yoda.
Yeah, from what Yoda said in TESB, Luke hadn’t been studying. Dabbling, but not studying. He had very little to go one. A couple of things from Obi-wan about instinct and trusting the force, but not enough to do anything. And in TESB, Luke is in that “look what I’ve learned” phase before the master swats him down. Vader played with him in TESB. The best Luke could do was a glancing blow on Vader’s armor. I would say Luke trained for 2-months and the rest of what he did can hardly be called training. And it hadn’t done him much good since he couldn’t lift the X-wing. Meanwhile, you forget that Rey was in a school of a different sort on Jakku. You ignore that not all lessons can be learned in a formal environment. You give Luke credit for the two tiny lessons Ben gave him, but none for the time that Rey spent on Jakku. Yes, I am suggesting kind of a Karate Kid type training where learning to wax a car and paint a fence turns out to be training for martial arts. But what the force requires is faith. But what can be clearly seen, is that whatever prerequisite for learning force skills and making use of them that Rey learned on Jakku and Luke had some very counter productive life lessons on Tatooine. Obi-wan and Yoda had to overcome how Luke was raised. Rey does not have that problem. She has other issues. She didn’t see her parents in the cave, she saw no one but herself. Luke saw himself in Vader. And according to the great Miyamoto Musashi, if you are a skilled fighter, you should be able to pick up any weapons. Finn picked up the lightsaber and did a passable job against Kylo. Rey was doing a passable job until Kylo basically paused and told her to use the force and she did and she beat him. She then used the lightsaber as effortlessly as she had her staff. Your argument makes a lot of assumptions. I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.
Yes, I know you’re the only person here dealing with facts. You’re the only objective person in the room, and the only person capable of correctly interpreting Lucas’ movies. Heck, even Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His point of view doesn’t fit your narrative, so he must be talking nonsense. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but you really invite these reactions with statements like: “I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.” We can disagree about the interpretations of movies, but I really can’t stand this attitude, which boils down to my opinion objectively better than yours.
But, my very skilled and knowledgeable friend, you are ignoring what human beings are capable in favor of an off-hand comment by Lucas. A comment that you haven’t really put into context. And I’m not speaking of mythical or legendary abilities, but documented. You are discounting that Rey could have, by accident of circumstances, had just the right training that is the equivalent to what the Jedi training would have done. Being a Jedi is about being of the right mindset, the right attitude. Rey is very different from Luke. Luke was a bit of a brat with his aunt and uncle. They did all the hard work and had problems getting him to do his chores vs. goof off. Rey has had to do the work herself just to live. She has to go out and work every day to eat. She lives on her own and is self sufficient. She has to fight others to survive. She is not a person with many doubts. But she is a person alone. Luke has always had friends and family around him. Rey has had Unkar. More master than family. Her issues are not the same as Luke’s issues and you and many others have complained that her journey learning the force is not as difficult as Luke’s. Why should it be. No two people are alike. Luke had his issues, Rey has hers. Rey can pick up force skills, but she is a big naive in dealing with other people unless they are fighting. She is almost too willing to believe. She thought she saw something in Kylo and went to face him and it backfired on her. She has a lot to learn, but the Force and Fighting come easy to her. That is the character Abrams gave us. Rian took her and set her on a journey to find a teacher. But the teacher she hoped for won’t teach her, so she takes matters into her own hands. She will teach herself. She was looking for parents or mentors. In the end she finds she doesn’t need them.
What I like most about TLJ, is that Rian was faithful to all the characters from TFA. You can argue about whether he was faithful to JJ’s plans, but he nailed the characters. He took each of them on a journey that stretched each one and made them stronger.
Lucas changed his own rules with each new movie he made. If new creators aren’t allowed to expand our understanding of the universe as Lucas did, why even make new films?
exactly. they should never have made new films period.
I often suspect this is how many feel but they often pretend that’s not the case. Appreciate the honesty.
I hope I’m not one of those lumped in with the pretenders.
Nah you’re very upfront about it. Not entirely sure why you’re in this thread though…
Why is anyone in this thread?
Lucas changed his own rules with each new movie he made. If new creators aren’t allowed to expand our understanding of the universe as Lucas did, why even make new films?
exactly. they should never have made new films period.
I often suspect this is how many feel but they often pretend that’s not the case. Appreciate the honesty.
I hope I’m not one of those lumped in with the pretenders.
Nah you’re very upfront about it. Not entirely sure why you’re in this thread though…
Boredom, mostly.
I assume, anyway. It’s all been said hundreds of times by now.
Boredom sometimes. But even while we don’t agree, the conversation is often stimulating and interesting. I learn a lot, even if I don’t agree with everything.
They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.
I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)
So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.
So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).
The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.
Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.
Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.
Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon it. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow when his life depended on it. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for years, whilst also being trained by Yoda.
Yeah, from what Yoda said in TESB, Luke hadn’t been studying. Dabbling, but not studying. He had very little to go one. A couple of things from Obi-wan about instinct and trusting the force, but not enough to do anything. And in TESB, Luke is in that “look what I’ve learned” phase before the master swats him down. Vader played with him in TESB. The best Luke could do was a glancing blow on Vader’s armor. I would say Luke trained for 2-months and the rest of what he did can hardly be called training. And it hadn’t done him much good since he couldn’t lift the X-wing. Meanwhile, you forget that Rey was in a school of a different sort on Jakku. You ignore that not all lessons can be learned in a formal environment. You give Luke credit for the two tiny lessons Ben gave him, but none for the time that Rey spent on Jakku. Yes, I am suggesting kind of a Karate Kid type training where learning to wax a car and paint a fence turns out to be training for martial arts. But what the force requires is faith. But what can be clearly seen, is that whatever prerequisite for learning force skills and making use of them that Rey learned on Jakku and Luke had some very counter productive life lessons on Tatooine. Obi-wan and Yoda had to overcome how Luke was raised. Rey does not have that problem. She has other issues. She didn’t see her parents in the cave, she saw no one but herself. Luke saw himself in Vader. And according to the great Miyamoto Musashi, if you are a skilled fighter, you should be able to pick up any weapons. Finn picked up the lightsaber and did a passable job against Kylo. Rey was doing a passable job until Kylo basically paused and told her to use the force and she did and she beat him. She then used the lightsaber as effortlessly as she had her staff. Your argument makes a lot of assumptions. I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.
and lucas was heavily criticized for comtradicting himself. does that excuse other creators contradicting some stuff that came before? imo no it doesn’t.
In my mind it all comes down to what services the story. Vader as Luke’s father is a retcon but also one of the most powerful developments in the saga (and cinema history, really). Luke and Leia as siblings isn’t awful but doesn’t ultimately have much bearing on ROTJ. Padme dying in ROTS contradicts a line in the OT but in my opinion is absolutely essential to the story that ROTS is telling, and the movie would be worse without it.
Basically, it depends. Many fans are binary about these things. I don’t think that’s the right way to go about it.
I think Lucas could have done something different to end ROTS. We didn’t need to see the twins in their new homes. We didn’t need to see Padme die. Because we did see it, someone watching in episode order would know before ROTJ that Leia is Luke’s sister. If they had done the ending differently they could have made the audience wonder and we wouldn’t have found out until later. We would be surprised to learn that Vader is Luke’s father and surprised to learn he has a twin sister. On the other hand, the end of ROTS is very fulfilling because it closes the circle and brings us back to where the saga began. It made for a very circular story for the first 6 episodes. If you watch in 4,5,6,1,2,3 order it solidly ends the story. But Lucas always had an idea for another trilogy (the first idea had 12 movies and the cut down to 9) and they took his idea and developed it. Kathleen Kennedy said they did it as they would any movie idea. So some of GL’s core ideas are still there (Luke in exile and a female student) and others came from Abrams, Kasdan, and Johnson. They communicated. Some things in TLJ were because of Rian. A lot of things in TLJ were because of TFA or ideas for IX (which wasn’t going to be Abrams at that point). And I hear Lucas is back with an advisory role in the IX script. I think the final version of the ST we get is going to be different but similar to what Lucas would have done himself. Probably less controversial than had he done it all himself (his best work has involved other people being involved in the creative process, fleshing out his ideas).
And I found this quote from Abrams:
“For me when I heard Obi-Wan say that the Force surrounds us and binds us all together, there was no judgement about who you were. This was something that we could all access. Being strong with the Force didn’t mean something scientific, it meant something spiritual. It meant someone who could believe, someone who could reach down to the depths of your feelings and follow this primal energy that was flowing through all of us. I mean, that’s what was said in that first film! And there I am sitting in the theater at almost 11 years old and that was a powerful notion. And I think this is what your point was, we would like to believe that when shit gets serious, that you could harness that Force I was told surrounds not just some of us but every living thing. And so, I really feel like the assumption that any character needs to have inherited a certain number of midi-chlorians or needs to be part of a bloodline. It’s not that I don’t believe that as part of the canon, I’m just saying that at 11 years old, that wasn’t where my heart was. And so I respect and adhere to the canon but I also say that the Force has always seemed to me to be more inclusive and stronger than that.”
from https://www.slashfilm.com/jj-abrams-interview-star-wars-the-force-awakens/
Lucas changed his own rules with each new movie he made. If new creators aren’t allowed to expand our understanding of the universe as Lucas did, why even make new films?
exactly. they should never have made new films period.
Lucas had decided to do treatments for the sequels so this trilogy is his doing even if he isn’t doing more than advise them. Abrams and Kasdan met with Lucas to go over what and was not possible with the force so if you don’t like the result, I suggest you take up with GL himself. He okayed that aspect of what they had planned.
Lucas changed his own rules with each new movie he made. If new creators aren’t allowed to expand our understanding of the universe as Lucas did, why even make new films?
Yes, Lucas has said a great many things that do not hold up. He is great at the ideas but not so great at explanations. He thought he was creating something he called space fantasy but it is solidly science fiction. I am very familiar with the tropes of science fiction prior to 1977 and Star Wars fits them all. Even the Jedi and their mind reading and telekinesis are just par for the course in science fiction. Nothing new at all. Well, lightsabers were a bit new, but none of the rest of it. So I take a lot of what he says with a grain of salt. Like twins. He had the idea of siblings and twins in the beginning, but he dropped it and brought it back for ROTJ. And then Leia remembering her mother and her mother dying (let’s be generous) hours after her birth. You can explain it away with a force connection that Luke didn’t have, but his changing story ideas make it interesting to wade through the continuity issues they create.
They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.
I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)
So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.
So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).
The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.
Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.
Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.
This could all be fixed if it’s revealed she had a bit of training as a toddler by some forgotten survivor of the Jedi purge. 😉
I’d find that neither satisfying or necessary.
Unless knowledge of how to use the force transferred to her from her mind link with Kylo, the simple fact that she on her own thought to use the Jedi mind trick needs some sort of explanation…unless I am forgetting something.
I suspect that Kylo UNLOCKED her force powers during the interrogation scene. Her force powers were sealed by someone who left her behind on Jakku. A planet so remote that even old Luke Skywalker admitted that Jakku is pretty much nowhere. But who was it? My guess: it was Reys mother. When Snoke was actively looking for young untrained force users, Reys mother hid her on Jakku never to be found by Snoke. Snokes search was successful though: he found Ben Solo.
I’m really hoping we will see Reys mother.
All I take from what Kylo told Rey (and the best way to get someone is by saying something true that they don’t want to hear) is that Rey’s parents were no one of significance. That does not mean they were not force sensitive. It just means they were not Skywalkers, Kenobis, or anything else. Star Wars has established that there are force sensitive people throughout the galaxy. The Jedi only trained the ones that they found when they were young enough. Your theory about Rey’s parents locking away her powers could be very true. It would be a way for Abrams to revisit them. But I think it is important that they remain nobodies. But a family where the force occasionally ran strong would not be out of place.
I wonder if one reason the force was out of balance was that when we see the Jedi in the PT, they forbid Jedi to have attachments. Anakin and Padme’s relationship is forbidden. So it is likely that all these Jedi who are not having children is ending many lines of powerful force users and diminishing the force in the Galaxy. Somewhere along the line, the Jedi decided that attachment could turn Jedi to the dark side and forbade it and as a result their powers were weakened. So that is one of the many things that the New Jedi need to undo. Luke obviously didn’t in the canon universe like he did in the Legends universe. I found the Jedi to be one-sided. The Jedi and Sith were polarized. The new Jedi needs to not be. I feel that the Jedi of the PT were incapable of knowing how to stop someone from falling to the dark side. They just forbade every avenue and emotion that they thought might lead there. Basically dark side abstinence. And like with sex, abstinence doesn’t work and when the temptation comes along, that way lies an easy fall.
And I’m not sure that we still know the exact timeline between ROTJ and TFA. But it goes something like this. Luke the Jedi travels around and learns more. He does a lot of research between ROTJ and TFA to find Ach-To. But that could be after Kylo’s turn.
Sometime when Kylo is old enough to be rebellious and a troublesome child, Luke decides to start a new Jedi academy. How many students he takes is unknown, but it appears to be about 20 (assuming half become the Knights of Ren). Ben appears to be in his late teens during the confrontation in the hut that ends in the destruction of the academy. My guess is that Ben was 15 when Luke started and 19 when he turned. So what did Luke do for those 15 years before that? He didn’t just do nothing. I’m sure he helped Leia build the Republic. He probably consolidated all the Jedi lore he could find before starting the school. We know what he did in the Legends timeline and I would assume since the new timeline is often very similar that his did something similar and went to Coruscant and scoured the Jedi Temple and whatever Palpatine had stolen from it. I would also imagine he encountered some of the failed Jedi (Like Kanan from Rebels). From his attitude in TLJ, it sounds like he found enough to train new students in the Jedi way. He learned that Palpatine was Darth Sideous indicating that he found some records from the last days of the purge or was informed by Yoda or Obi-wan.
Luke doesn’t appear to have had many failures before Kylo turned. Yoda and Obi-wan may have been his biggest advisors on his training program. The only thing we can say for certain, is that Luke and Yoda did not communicate AFTER Kylo’s turn. Luke blocked himself of, ran to Ach-To (maybe having to find it first) and hid, blocking himself of from the force. Either Yoda left him alone or couldn’t reach him. What is clear is that Luke learned a lot about the Jedi from before the purge and became very disillusioned with their methods. Yoda never disagrees with him, only tells him he should pass on his failures as a teaching tool to help Rey. I don’t think Yoda and Luke had been silence since ROTJ, just since Kylo’s fall.
I think it might be safe to say that Luke’s curmudgeonliness is likely the result of the same thing that led to Anakin’s fall - attachment. Kylo was his nephew. Luke as a new teacher could have also gotten very attached to his other students so when one half turned to the dark side and killed the other half, he went to a very dark place and let grief take over. I saw a Luke in need of healing and between Rey and Yoda they brought him back. The Luke we saw in ROTJ was riding high on success, but even so he turned dark when Vader threatened Leia. The old Jedi admonishment against attachment is not something he learned. So it is very consistent with his character for him to become attached to his students, especially his nephew and that attachment would derail him as easily as Vader did in threatening to turn Leia. The grief knocks aside all his success and defeatist Luke is back. And this ties in to Kylo’s story. Kylo is trying to be this big dark bad guy so he kills his father (it is Kylo’s belief that the past must die - I have no idea why people ascribe this to Rian Johnson and the entire story of TLJ). But in so doing, he is more of a wreck than ever. And given the opportunity, he can’t even fire on his mother. Only in Killing Snoke does his resolve become clear and all doubt melt away. But Kylo, like Luke and Anakin, has attachment as a weakness. Skywalkers seem to be attached to their family. Suddenly Rey seeming to be a nobody isn’t such a bad or strange thing. She is an anti-Kylo. No attachments, no family, no urge to turn to the dark side (where Kylo idolizes his grandfather and is trying to be dark and evil and not doing an incredibly good job of it). My early prediction for the finale of IX is that she and Kylo will turn out to be yin/yang for the force and end up forming a new Jedi order together.