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yotsuya

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6-Dec-2023
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Post
#1242816
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

As for genre classification, well, space opera is 100% a sub-genre of science fiction. It always has been. In some ways it is the oldest and definitely the most prolific. It was born from the Planetary Romance genre which gradually expanded from settings on a planet to different planets and then different planets in far flung system. The nature of the stories remained largely unchanged. The supernatural is a frequent trope as is swashbuckling adventure. Asimov tended to do more cerebral puzzles in his space opera, but his technology was no less improbable or fantastic.

Post
#1242807
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

Just pure lunacy. It is one thing to disagree about what the primary genre is, but to pretend like it is only one genre, with no elements of any other genre present is just ridiculous. Either you’re being willfully ignorant/obtuse, or you seriously need educate yourself better on Lucas’s influences. He wasn’t just taking from “space operas,” and I think you know it.

Yes, but when you are talking about SF vs. fantasy, he was only taking from SF. I have never heard of a single fantasy that inspired him. Not one. Myths, yes. Samurai, yes, Cambell, yes. Fantasy, no. When it comes to genre, Star Wars is 100% science fiction with no fantasy influences at all. Not one. And as I’ve pointed out many times, myths and legends and even religion has been fodder for science fiction forever. He specifically drew from Flash Gordon (which was a copy of Buck Rogers so even if he didn’t directly borrow from Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon had already done that), Asimov’s Foundation, Herbert’s Dune, and Star Trek (which itself was a copy of Forbidden Planet - at least partially). The Star Wars universe benefits from this and the technology is solid and realistic (as much as any science fiction is).

To say that Lucas took more from Asimov than fantasy is not only absurd on the face it of, but factually untrue. I don’t recall ever hearing that Lucas was inspired by Foundation. There doesn’t seem to be any influence from Star Trek that I can tell (besides what not to do), and I’ll give you Forbidden Planet, but even then we mustn’t forget is just an adaptation of The Tempest.

On the other hand, one of Star Wars’s most well documented influences was Hidden Fortress, a fantastical fairy tale. Little spoken of, but Lucas also screened Fellini’s Satyricon - a fantasy drama - for his crew during the production of the original film. Not to mention Wizard of Oz, whose similarities in storytelling to Star Wars are incredibly obvious. With the myths and legends of Campbell, I’d think those all fall under the purview of fantasy (even if many weren’t technically written as such at the time, they have become the basis for the storytelling and structure of the fantasy genre). And then there’s, of course, Tolkien - not only is it common knowledge that Lucas took inspiration from him (and it’s easy to see the parallels), but there’s direct evidence of such in the third draft script (a near direct lift from the Hobbit):

BEN
Good morning!

LUKE
What do you mean, ‘good morning’? Do you mean that it is a good morning for you, or do you wish me a good morning, although it is obvious I’m not having one, or do you find that mornings in general are good?

BEN
All of them altogether.

https://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the-star-wars-from-the-adventures-of-luke-starkiller-third-draft/

Your take that the Jedi are wizards ignores the decades of similar characters in science fiction. Your take that the force is magic ignores the decades of fantastic powers in characters in science fiction. Your take that the story structure is a fantasy quest ignores the decades of science fiction quest stories. You are focused on it being fantasy because Lucas said so and have this image of science fiction as a genre based on realistic science and we all know how well Lucas can BS and very little science fiction is based on realistic science but rather pseudoscience extrapolated from possibilities that can range from likely to near impossible. There is nothing in Star Wars that deviates from the Space Opera standards.

It’s one thing to say that none of the fantastical things in Star Wars disqualifies it as sci-fi, because there’s precedent for those things in sci-fi. But it’s another thing entirely to pretend that the fanatical things in Star Wars have nothing to do with fantasy at all and are “100% sci-fi.” No one in their right mind would look at a wizard character and think first of the handful of examples of that from “space operas.” That’s a fantasy archetype, plain and simple. To say it’s not is intellectually dishonest, at best. Anyone with any bit of sense would recognize that Ben Kenobi fits far more into the mould of Gandalf and Merlin than Gary Mitchell.

Which is to say nothing of the other genres that Star Wars encompasses. To simplify it all as “space opera” is incredibly reductive. And then to say that because it is “space opera” makes it 100% sci-fi is incredibly debatable. If anything I’d say space opera is too diverse a style to shoehorn into merely a sub-genre of sci-fi. And I really don’t give a shit how Amazon classifies them. There is no remotely infallible way to label and categorize everything. Especially once you have things that straddle multiple definitions, it’s entirely unfair to pretend like they can fit into just one category and fit perfectly there.

So we have one line of dialog in one version of the script that was cut. Okay. What other way did Tolkien influence Star Wars? And I own Hidden Fortress and it is not a fantasy. Just a solid samurai drama. From Foundation comes the galactic empire. Tyrannical Emperors. Great Imperial fleets fighting rebellion… basically most of the setting. From Dune you get a desert planet, mystic religions with strange powers, the voice, and a young boy thrust into the spot light. From Hidden Fortress you get the journey (one of the drafts is virtually a direct copy of Hidden Fortress) and the droids (typical Japanese comic relief characters). And there is so much taken from Flash Gordon (Which I would say is the main inspiration for the entire idea of Star Wars) which has Ming the merciless, princesses, and epic fight against incredible odds, and so much more. Flash Gordon runs closer to (but not overlapping) fantasy than Star Wars does. Lucas made Star Wars much more grounded, gritty, and realistic.

I’ve always taken Owen’s use of the word Wizard in referring to Ben as an insult and not a reflection of his role in the story. In the Campbell structure, he is the mentor. He is less magical than he is mysterious. I’ve always considered the Jedi as powerful warriors and see the little force tricks as nothing terribly important for pinning the genre. In the end, nothing about the story is determined by exhibitions of the force. And wizard’s don’t typically do battle with swords. Ben is an old knight, not an old wizard. He is more veteran samurai than Merlin.

Post
#1242795
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

You are ignore a century of science fiction full of force like abilities. You are also using the hard science fiction parameters instead of the general science fiction parameters. And the thing you can’t do with Gandalf is say how he does it. There is zero explanation of his magic. Ben starts to explain the force and Yoda further explains it. Most magic is not explained in fantasy and is left mysterious and magical whereas in science fiction all such powers are explained in some way. When you tell how the magic works, it isn’t magic any more.

Post
#1242794
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

dahmage said:

genres are used to provide a classification for a movie, so in my mind they are fluid.

For example.

if you are trying to decide what part of a product catalog to list it in, you will be using one set of criteria, and will probably list it as Sci Fi

if you are talking to a friend and comparing Star Wars to any other sci-fi movie, you are then more likely to reach for more descriptive, specific genres, and will say that Star wars is more of a Space Fantasy than your typical sci-fi story.

Unless you are familiar with what the rare SF/Fantasy cross over story looks like. It looks nothing like Star Wars. There is no subtle attempt to disguise extraordinary power and it is pure magic let loose. I’m a long time fan of Asimov, Heinlein, Brooks and Tolkien and I have never considered Star Wars anything other than science fiction.

One of the key tropes/hallmarks that makes most Epic Fantasy is the nature of the forces of evil. Not only is their leader corrupt and twisted, but the forces themselves are corrupt and twisted. In both mind and body. At times they stories verge on horror due to the nature of the evil that infest the armies and agents of the chief antagonist. And typically the side of good is relying on some great talisman. This deep and pervasive evil is completely missing in Star Wars. Palpatine is relying on the force, but also on human frailties. He plays politics and uses his skill in that area to maintain control while pretending to be the puppet instead of the puppet master. Stormtroopers are just soldiers. It is about humans subverted by an evil leader, not by evil itself which is where most fantasy takes you. The struggle in fantasy brings the good and evil battle into the world where Star Wars puts the battle internal to each individual. So to me, Star Wars is nothing like any fantasy story I’ve encountered. It is too rooted in reality.

Post
#1242781
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

Post
#1242758
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

Just pure lunacy. It is one thing to disagree about what the primary genre is, but to pretend like it is only one genre, with no elements of any other genre present is just ridiculous. Either you’re being willfully ignorant/obtuse, or you seriously need educate yourself better on Lucas’s influences. He wasn’t just taking from “space operas,” and I think you know it.

Yes, but when you are talking about SF vs. fantasy, he was only taking from SF. I have never heard of a single fantasy that inspired him. Not one. Myths, yes. Samurai, yes, Cambell, yes. Fantasy, no. When it comes to genre, Star Wars is 100% science fiction with no fantasy influences at all. Not one. And as I’ve pointed out many times, myths and legends and even religion has been fodder for science fiction forever. He specifically drew from Flash Gordon (which was a copy of Buck Rogers so even if he didn’t directly borrow from Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon had already done that), Asimov’s Foundation, Herbert’s Dune, and Star Trek (which itself was a copy of Forbidden Planet - at least partially). The Star Wars universe benefits from this and the technology is solid and realistic (as much as any science fiction is).

Your take that the Jedi are wizards ignores the decades of similar characters in science fiction. Your take that the force is magic ignores the decades of fantastic powers in characters in science fiction. Your take that the story structure is a fantasy quest ignores the decades of science fiction quest stories. You are focused on it being fantasy because Lucas said so and have this image of science fiction as a genre based on realistic science and we all know how well Lucas can BS and very little science fiction is based on realistic science but rather pseudoscience extrapolated from possibilities that can range from likely to near impossible. There is nothing in Star Wars that deviates from the Space Opera standards.

Post
#1242699
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Shopping Maul said:

The way I see it, Star Wars simply did what rock bands have been doing for years. Someone mentioned that heavy metal didn’t exist when Black Sabbath emerged. That’s true of so many bands. What the hell was KISS? Glam? Metal? Neither - they were just KISS. What were the Chili Peppers? Funk? Nope. Punk? Nope. Rap? Uh-uh. Just a weird mix of lots of stuff. I’m pretty sure Kurt Cobain didn’t say one morning “let’s invent a thing called ‘grunge’ - I’ll call up Chris Cornell and Eddie Vedder and we’ll start a movement”. Nirvana didn’t do anything new, but they certainly were unique.

Star Wars is Star Wars.

Except Lucas copied more than 5 established science fiction properties, all space opera, to base Star Wars on. Complete with sword fights, other primitive weapons, blasters, space ships, evil tyrants, advanced mental powers, stories of good vs. evil. characters you could call wizards, princesses, emperors, evil henchmen, aliens, and pretty much everything in Star Wars. He brought in Campbell and the samurai code, but that wasn’t all that unique, only how he did it. Heinlein would call Lucas an engineer - taking things that already exist and putting them together in a new way. The genius lies not in pure originality, but how well it resonated and became so popular. So Star Wars wasn’t doing something new and different. The comparison to something that was new and different doesn’t apply. It’s more like Star Wars is the 57 Chevy of movies. From a long line, but something was different and unique that made it extra special - just not something truly new.

Post
#1242696
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Also:

yotsuya said:

There is no genre of space fantasy. It doesn’t exist.

Says who? Is there an official list of genres that is set in stone for all eternity? Who made the list and why did they decide to add cyberpunk to it in the 1980s, but space fantasy is apparently strictly forbidden?

The people who write it, publish it, review it, and read it. Why create a new genre for something that already exists? Why create space fantasy when the object being called that fits in Space Opera. They create a new genre when there is something new and Star Wars wasn’t.

Yes, Lucas based on Campbell’s work, but that is just a compilation of myths and legends. Those myths and legends had already been used in other science fiction stories. Telepathy, telekinesis, and other ESP powers are so common that you can’t truly call yourself a fan of science fiction without knowing all the times they pop up. Isaac Asimov even wrote a story about a computer that became sentient and so powerful that it became God. His work is full of what you are calling magic and he is considered one of the three greats of mid 20th century science fiction, along with Clarke and Heinlein. I am not familiar with Clarke, but Heinlein didn’t shy away from what is typically called ESP either. And Star Trek and to a greater extent Space 1999 had beings with mental powers that put a Jedi to shame.

You are using the very things the science fiction has incorporated for decades to prove that it is not science fiction. That doesn’t really work.

Post
#1242694
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, seriously. It starts with a reworded version of “Once upon a time;” an evil wizard-knight who’s also a Lord kidnaps a princess while the princess tries to contact a good wizard-knight to help fight evil; the good wizard takes a lowly farmboy yearning for adventure under his wing and starts training him to be a knight; the pair recruit a rogue and his beastly sidekick to help them on their journey; the group infiltrates the evil castle to rescue the princess; the wizard-knights duel with swords…

…yep, no fantasy whatsoever in there.

Let’s see, Vader exhibits a total of one force power in the entire film (force choking Admiral Motti) so not really very wizard like. Princesses about in science fiction so that means nothing. So do farm boys. So those mean nothing. Ben is more mystic than magician and all he does in ANH is use a mind trick on some storm troopers twice (telepathy). Han has his origins in Northwest Smith and Hobar Mallow and space opera abouds with beastly alien creatures. And castle is your word. Fortress would be more apt - something that was very common on Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon. And bladed energy weapons appeared long before Star Wars. So everything you try to pin to fantasy is a stable of space opera.

In Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation, the Mule performs much nastier tricks, actually killing people with his mental power. I can’t even remember what all Frank Herbert had Paul do. And list is larger of space opera good guys and villains who used the same, similar, or more powerful tricks. So… the wizard aspect is pretty well entrenched in science fiction. Some even get called wizards. Telepathy and telekinesis are normal science fiction tropes, especially in space opera.

Post
#1242692
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Mocata said:

I always thought Space Opera was just the scale of the stakes, the amount of melodrama, the amount of swashbuckling romantic adventure stuff included. The more it has the more operatic, i.e Death Stars and Galactic Empires. However Science Fiction can be all of these things while still being full of real ideas about people, culture, technology, warnings about the future, the decline of society or the impact of higher learning. i.e. Not Star Wars. In fact SW is more of a fairy tale than anything else. There are obvious disconnects between the content in SW and the content in Blade Runner, Star Trek or Planet of the Apes.

Well, Star Wars some pretty good warnings about fascism. It has its own technology. It is a fully fleshed out universe from religion to politics to technology and more. And you named two dystopian settings and a space opera series full of morality tales so there is bound to be a disconnect between them and Star Wars.

Post
#1242133
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Man, people have such rigid definitions of what is and isn’t sci-fi…

Most are confusing hard science fiction with science fiction in general. They are letting less than 10% dictate the entire genre and that is not accurate at all.

I guess the point I was trying to make that one time a couple days ago was that Star Wars isn’t and never was hard science fiction, and as such trying to find a scientifically plausible explanation for how anything works within the franchise is futile. Which is why I consider it fantasy within a sci-fi setting.

No, it isn’t hard SF, but at the same time, Star Wars by Lucas always stayed on the edge of probable and didn’t blatently tear apart the laws of physics. Abrams was 100 times more blatant and obvious and when you look at both what Lucas did in his 6 films and what most SF properties strive to do, they want you to believe so they either explain it or try not to be too obvious.

So I guess if I were to try and pigeonhole it into a genre, I can’t. It’s (soft) sci-fi. It’s space opera. It’s fantasy. It’s adventure. But I’d argue “sci-fi” is the least important of those to the franchise.

It isn’t fantasy. It doesn’t share anything in common with typical fantasy worlds. It does, however, share every single point with space opera (which is the most popular and dominant sub-genre of science fiction).

It’s absolutely not, however, hard sci-fi or speculative fiction or whatever label you want to put on stories that are about scientifically plausible technologies.

Well, it is speculative fiction. That is the joint genre name for science fiction, fantasy, and horror. And I’m arguing that it is not in any way hard science fiction and that those who are saying it isn’t science fiction are only using the definition of hard science fiction and are ignoring over a century of literary history of the larger science fiction genre. Lucas didn’t ignore it. He copied it. He hit every trope for it to fit into space opera and general science fiction.

There is no genre of space fantasy. It doesn’t exist. It doesn’t need to because it is either a cross over story that has aspects of fantasy and SF (and Star Wars has no aspects or tropes of fantasy), or it is standard Space Opera.

Post
#1242130
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Astroboi2 said:

So the tech setting of Star Wars does make it science fiction. Space wizards are typical fare for space opera. The Mule in the Foundation stories, Paul in Dune, Gary Mitchell in Star Trek.

Except that Star Wars doesn’t take place in the future, while those other stories do. That’s the main difference.

Time setting is immaterial. Steampunk is science fiction set in the past. And you can have Space Opera set in the past (it has been done many times). Just the typical convention is to set it in our future when we have higher tech (or lower in the case of post apocalyptic SF).

Post
#1242128
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

Astroboi2 said:

So the tech setting of Star Wars does make it science fiction. Space wizards are typical fare for space opera. The Mule in the Foundation stories, Paul in Dune, Gary Mitchell in Star Trek.

Except that Star Wars doesn’t take place in the future, while those other stories do. That’s the main difference.

So if someone were to write a story about an advanced alien civilization set in the distant past — and for the sake of argument, let’s say there were absolutely no mystical elements present — it still wouldn’t qualify as sci-fi?

Sounds stupid to me.

Yes, it would be science fiction. Future or past is not a requirement.

Post
#1242003
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Mocata said:

SW doesn’t present a situation in which technology truly impacts anyone’s lives. Death Star withstanding of course. But in most other situations it simply exists. This isn’t some kind of High-Tech/Low-Life cyberpunk universe where everyone who isn’t in touch with their spiritual side suffers in a dystopia. It’s just dressing to disguise the space wizards core of the story.

Just as the technology is just a player in the Foundation series which is really a futuristic retelling of the fall of the Roman Empire - with a twist that someone is trying to save all the knowledge. Just as technology (which is deliberately downplayed) in the Dune stories which are a political drama with the protagonist turning into a messiah and religious leader. Both are Space Opera as is Star Wars. The technology is the backdrop and the story of each could be moved, but the character of the stories relies on that technology. Solo is a smuggler and the Falcon his a key part of his character. Luke’s piloting abilities. The light saber - a high tech version of an ancient weapon. You find the same sort of things in the Foundation. Where math of a mysterious nature that is never explained can tell the future to some extent. Where the resource poor planet Terminus becomes the new center of the galaxy through their miniaturization and advanced knowledge rather than from force of arms. And we are never really given any clue as to how the spice of Arakis, derived from desiccated worms, allows for folding of space or seeing, or the voice. Technology is the color and backdrop. It is the canvas that gives these different created universes their character. The stories Asimov, Herbert, and Lucas tell, are borrowed and modified to fit. That is typical for science fiction. If you watch the original Star Trek, it is full of borrowed ideas and pulp science fiction ideas of the day as well as biting social commentary and just plain good stories. Few of them require a science fiction setting, but it gives the stories their color and the technology, even if never explained or even addressed on screen, provided inspiration to hundred of scientists and inventor. They never once talked about the sliding door or the medical monitor. They were just there, yet we now have sliding doors and medical monitors are standard in hospitals (though not cord free yet). Because of Star Wars, people want to find a way to make a lightsaber and holographic games. Why? because the tech inspired even if the story doesn’t depend on it. It enriches the story and give it the unique flavor.

So the tech setting of Star Wars does make it science fiction. Space wizards are typical fare for space opera. The Mule in the Foundation stories, Paul in Dune, Gary Mitchell in Star Trek.

Post
#1241998
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Shopping Maul said:

Yotsuya (great thread by the way), do you happen to know the extent to which Lucas employed Joseph Campbell throughout the OT? Gary Kurtz claims it wasn’t such a huge factor until further into the series. I ask this because I couldn’t help but reflect on our back and forth re ROTJ. I’m not familiar with Campbell so this is pure speculation, but it seems to me that Lucas leaned more heavily on the mythical aspects of the story in ROTJ where he’d been relying on more ‘logical’ cues in the previous films. For example Yoda says Luke has to face Darth Vader in order to become a Jedi, but I feel that someone like Kershner would have had Yoda (or Obi Wan) preface it with the need for a Jedi to ‘face his deepest fear’ or something similar in order to contextualise/ground the idea (the prequels seem to attempt it with ‘Jedi trials’). Even Luke’s final battle (as I’ve been moaning about for some time!) seems to be more broadly metaphorical/symbolic than practical in terms of actually being of help to the rebel cause. I’ve also seen Lucas describe the Ewoks as the mythical ‘creature on the side of the road’, which was of course achieved with Yoda in TESB but realised with significantly more blatant cuteness in ROTJ. There’s even the moment where Luke says “I can’t go on alone”, clearly marking that point in the journey, whereas Obi Wan’s death and Luke’s being left alone in ANH were more or less written on the run.

It seems to me that Campbell/mythology was a factor in SW/TESB - along with westerns and Flash Gordon and all the other stuff mentioned in this thread - but may have taken a more blatant hold in ROTJ. Or am I, as Leia would say, “imagining things”?

Cambell’s work was based on myths and legends, but only relied on those in so far as they are the oldest, most persistent, and most iconic types of stories. He apparently studied stories from around the globe. But what his work entails are basically instructions for telling a story that feels old and taps into our deep cultural memory. I read most of it and as a writer it was informative, but full of things I didn’t need. So the myth part is not really part of his aim - he was aimed at getting to the heart of the story telling. ANH and TESB are filled with Cambell’s influence as Luke begins the hero’s journey. The entire OT is filled and Luke traveling along the hero’s journey. Ben even gives the ultimate goal in ANH when he tells Luke he must learn the force. Then after he dies he sends Luke to Yoda to be trained. So Cambell is there and has huge impact on the story from the beginning. And the Ewoks were just mini-wookies. That battle was originally supposed to be the Wookies against the Empire. I don’t see any more influence on ROTJ than the previous two films. I think he used it to a lesser degree in the PT and I heard that at least Rian Johnson used it for TLJ. I suspect that Lucas saw his use of Cambell as something more akin to fantasy without realizing that it was already a staple of science fiction.

The hero’s journey was a key element in the old romance adventures that speculative fiction was born from. It is key in the Planetary Romances of the early 20th century and the Space Operas of the mid 20th century. They obviously weren’t reading Campbell, but the were tapping into the myths and legends that were his sources. You can really see that in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings where Tolkien was drawing on Finnish, Norse, and English traditions, myths, legends, and folk tales and using them to create his fictional Middle Earth before Campbell ever published his work (1949). The first John Carter book follows the same pattern as well. Campbell just compiled everything you would need to know in one place and gave it meaning and reason. But Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Foundation, and Dune (Lucas’s known inspirations) are full of the western tradition of the hero’s journey and samurai movies are full of the eastern traditions. So he got it on all side and from all source and made it really strong and solid. Luke’s story is much closer to classic mythology like Hercules as a result. At least in terms of the beats of the story.

Post
#1241942
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

chyron8472 said:

RogueLeader said:

I’m not saying either side is right or wrong, but I do get yotsuya’s perspective.

If you worked at a bookstore, for example, and you had to choose whether to put Star Wars books in the fantasy section or the science fiction section, which section would you put them in?

But Star Wars books treat the science of the SW universe differently than the movies do. The TFA novel actually explains how Starkiller Base’s primary weapon works and how it can destroy planets while on the other side of the galaxy. The movies don’t do that. In the movies, the science takes a backseat and is almost never explained.

That is the difference between movies and book and has nothing to do with genre. In a movie you only deliver what you absolutely have to in order to tell the story. In an book you have more room to flesh out the world. No movie is as detailed as the book.

Post
#1241919
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading (a WIP)
Time

Ronster said:

UnitéD2 said:

Imgur

I’m not sure it’s really better than what Dr Dre did. As Yotsuya said, it’s very difficult to find the balanced amount of red.

Hues and saturation messing with your perception… The others look good though well done 😃

Well, in this set you have made Luke and Ben jaundiced. Where is the red in their skin tones? Far too much yellow and not enough red.

Post
#1241913
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

I think the question we need to answer is what is science fiction. That is the part there seems to be a lot of confusion over. Everyone here seems to agree what Star Wars is about, but not where it fits.

Let’s go back to the beginning… well, sort of. Science Fiction goes back a long way, but for practical purposes, it really became something different with Jules Verne. He is the father of modern science fiction. What are his stories about? Adventure. That is the type of story he was telling. He took current technology and extrapolated where it might go and found new stories to tell. Not everything he wrote about was even plausible at the time. He dreamed of how technology could make our future better and wrote about it.

Now, the next big name in science fiction was H.G. Wells. He also was very science minded, but he didn’t write adventures. His stories are warnings of what not to do. Instead of imagining how technology could help, he tended to write about how it could harm. He was not against technology, but against abusing it. His stories are darker.

The next big name I know of is Edar Rice Burroughs. He created John Carter and Tarzan, among others. With John Carter and the Barsoom series he created what became known as planetary romance.

There are lots of writers in between. Some well known in their day, some still known. C.L Moore’s Northwest Smith stories (or similar ones) where a clear inspiration for many Star Trek writers as well as those writing about traders, smugglers, and pirates. She was one of many writers who also dabbled in Fantasy.

Then in the middle of the 20th century you have the big three, Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein. Some of their stories about with science. But Asimov was inspired to craft the Foundation stories (originally short stories and novellas and later compiled into 3 novel length books) which are pure Space Opera. There are so many famous names, but some of the ones I know are Andre Norton, Anne McCaffrey, James Blish, Philip K. Dick, Frederik Pohl, Frank Herbert and Poul Anderson. Today one of my favorites is Jack McDevitt. And when you examine the stories and what they are about, it is not just science. Science often takes a back seat. Sometimes science underlies the story and drives it, sometimes it is along for the ride. What is consistent across the genre of science fiction is technology. One branch of science fiction even goes back in time to the 19th century and explores what kind of inventions could have been created with that level of technology (its called Steampunk as a play on Cyberpunk).

So how does this relate to Star Wars? Well, when you examine the scope of what science fiction covers, is very broad. This idea that the story has to focus on science is false. That concept is confined to hard science fiction - one of the smaller branches of the genre. Most tend to stick to the roots of the genre and tell stories of adventure and excitement. The Honor Harrington universe by David Weber is a fairly blatant reworking of Horratio Hornblower. Jack McDevitt’s Alex Benedict series is about a future antiquities dealer and his assistant who keep getting caught up in mysteries. His Academy Series is about space exploration. Isaac Asimov’s Robot/Empire/Foundation series (he eventually merged them all together) is about a civilization that grows from earth and 50 colonies to a galaxy spanning Empire that collapses and one man’s plan to shorten the interim to a new civilization. It is full of technology, but light on science. Heinlein brilliantly described micro gravity in the 1940’s. His ideas ranged from requiring military service for citizenship to inventors. Clarke gave us the story behind 2001 and then took it further in 3 sequels.

What is accurate for most, is that the writer kept the story grounded in science, but the stories are not about science. It is about science and its effect on people and society and how no matter what level of technology, you can tell a good story about people. Science fiction writers have been inspired by anything from the dangers of the atomic bomb to a world low on resources would miniaturize everything. A great many writers focus on the setting and keep the science behind the scenes. Some just adopt a futuristic setting and tell a good story.

So science fiction isn’t about the future. It isn’t just about science or technology. It is about how those things affect the people and impact the story. Dune is a political drama set in a world where thinking machines are outlawed and powdered dead worms fuel the economy and space travel. Foundation is a mirror of the fall or the Roman Empire, but with a plan to save the knowledge and rebuild.

Most great science fiction series can be described without using any science or technology at all.

So science fiction is not just hard science fiction, but also space opera, dystopian, alien invasion, cyberpunk, steampunk, social science fiction, space western, alien contact, military, time travel, colonization, alternate history, and post-apocalyptic. None of this is considered fantasy. None of it. Very little of it focuses very much on science.

When you apply that knowledge to Star Wars, it is just another space opera. It is just like John Carter/Barsoom, Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Foundation, Dune, Star Trek, and so many others. What Lucas did was tie the story to our oldest mythic tales in how the story was constructed. He is not the first to do that. Greek myths have been the fodder of science fiction stories for over a century. While there was a genre called space fantasy for a brief time and there is a genre called science fantasy, Star Wars has its roots and firmly fits in space opera, probably the most prolific sub-genre of science fiction. Absolutely nothing Lucas did in his story telling for the saga deviates in the slightest from the space opera format. He put things together in a completely unique way, but he followed all the standard tropes of space opera and nothing he did was truly new or original. The force is a religion, the Jedi are a warrior order, light sabers are just a piece of technology (that appears in many stories going back to the 30’s). They are tropes common to space opera and other sub-genres of science fiction going back more than 80 years. And no one has cared to establish space fantasy as an official sub-genre. It is just an alternate name for something that already existed.

It is like saying Data in TNG is not a robot. All androids are robots.

Star Wars is in the the science fiction sub-genre of space opera.

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#1241893
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
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Anakin Starkiller said:

yotsuya said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

Science fantasy is an oxymoron. Star Wars is fantasy. Space fantasy if you want to be specific. The problem is people tend to equate fantasy to the past and sci-fi to the future, and see them as otherwise interchangeable. In reality, sci-fi is more like a historical story set in the future. It’s supposed to be believable as something that could happen in our world.

That is the definition of Hard Science Fiction. Most science fiction does not fit that definition. Arthur Clarke wrote hard science fiction. Isaac Asimov wrote what gets called soft science fiction. The distinction is scientific accuracy vs. science inspired. All of Lucas’s inspirations in the science fiction genre are soft science fiction (Dune, Foundation, Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon). The emphasis is not on science but on using what science can project to tell a story of adventure. Lucas sets his as a fable by placing it a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, but he is not the first to do that or the only one.

To be science fiction, it has be about science.

Anyway, we’re going on tangent endlessly debating something nobody is likely to change their minds on. Let’s get back on topic.

That is the definition of hard science fiction, not the science fiction genre as a whole. The genre was born from adventure fiction of the 19th century and has always been quite loose with the science. Even scientists like Asimov didn’t make their stories just about science.

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#1241736
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
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DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

The force is 90% ESP and is a minor part of the story told. Luke’s journey is mostly to become a warrior to defeat Vader and the Emperor and then Luke makes a twist by sacrificing himself to save his father and his father kills the Emperor, sacrificing himself in the process. Luke’s main story is not dependent on the force, but on his own character.

Not true at all. The Force is integral to Luke and his story. It is at the philosophical core of the series. A power that connects every living thing on a deep and spiritual level. A power that can be used for good, to help others, or for evil. Luke’s story is about using that power with responsibility. By sacrificing himself, he’s trusting in the light side of the Force, in the belief that love and care for others will save the galaxy. When Vader makes his sacrifice, he’s choosing the Force, giving into something greater than him.

It’s telling that even in Rogue One, the film that’s possibly the most sci-fi of the series, the Force still plays an important role.

The Force is really the religion in Star Wars. It provides the moral compass for the characters. That is especially notable in Rogue One where it is a matter of faith, not special abilities. Tarkin even calls it a religion in ANH. Take away the ESP aspect and the core story remains unchanged. I’ll agree that the light and dark aspect of the force is integral to the story, but the powers used are not. Take away the powers and leave it as a religion and the story is little impacted.

“The Force is not a power you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things, a tension, a balance, that binds the universe together”

The Force isn’t a religion, the Jedi are. The Force is more akin to a deity - a supernatural entity - that actually exists in universe. The Force is not simply a matter of faith, it is a matter of fact. Saying the Force is nothing more than ESP is a fundamental misunderstanding of it. Take away the “powers,” and it’s still a driving, uh, force in the universe.

No, I’m not misunderstanding. This is what genre analysis is. If you question if something is genre related you see if you can cut it and keep the core story intact. Cut out the force powers and you would get essentially the same story. So the force powers are not a genre determiner (even though the are an expanded ESP which is a standard science fiction trope).

So if you can cut out the mystic force power and the story is solidly space opera and every other aspect is space opera (including the first TESB script being written by the queen of space opera), then the argument that Star Wars is closer to fantasy falls apart. It isn’t fantasy and Lucas calling it space fantasy doesn’t make that a valid genre and doesn’t make it closer to The Hobbit than to the pillars of classic science fiction. the pillars of classic science fiction are either hard sci-fi or space opera and if you quiz people, they will know the space operas better. The early ones were called planetary romances, but the style of storytelling expanded with the addition of FTL to span the galaxy instead of planets and took on the name space opera. That is exactly what Star Wars is, space opera.

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#1241724
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
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DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

The force is 90% ESP and is a minor part of the story told. Luke’s journey is mostly to become a warrior to defeat Vader and the Emperor and then Luke makes a twist by sacrificing himself to save his father and his father kills the Emperor, sacrificing himself in the process. Luke’s main story is not dependent on the force, but on his own character.

Not true at all. The Force is integral to Luke and his story. It is at the philosophical core of the series. A power that connects every living thing on a deep and spiritual level. A power that can be used for good, to help others, or for evil. Luke’s story is about using that power with responsibility. By sacrificing himself, he’s trusting in the light side of the Force, in the belief that love and care for others will save the galaxy. When Vader makes his sacrifice, he’s choosing the Force, giving into something greater than him.

It’s telling that even in Rogue One, the film that’s possibly the most sci-fi of the series, the Force still plays an important role.

The Force is really the religion in Star Wars. It provides the moral compass for the characters. That is especially notable in Rogue One where it is a matter of faith, not special abilities. Tarkin even calls it a religion in ANH. Take away the ESP aspect and the core story remains unchanged. I’ll agree that the light and dark aspect of the force is integral to the story, but the powers used are not. Take away the powers and leave it as a religion and the story is little impacted.

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#1241700
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
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Anchorhead said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:
Absolutely baffles me. Technology is of exactly zero importance in Star Wars. It’s there, that’s it. The films are not about that at all. They are modern myths, and very clearly so. You cannot with a straight face tell me that Star Wars is more similar to Shelly and Verne than to Tolkein and Arthurian legends.

I disagree with this statement. The original Star Wars trilogy was very much about technology. In fact the original Star Wars can be seen as a critique of the modern world, where technology supersedes spirituality punctuated by Motti´s remark “This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe!” This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of the first movie, namely that the Jedi and even Darth Vader himself are seen as relics of the past in a galaxy dominated by technology.

I’m not at all speaking for Dominic, so he should correct me if I’m off. I think he’s noting that technology doesn’t drive the story in-universe. Luke has a speeder because that’s how you get around, vaporators are how you get water, droids are the labor pool, space ships are how you travel from planet to planet, etc.

I had that in my original response as well, before I trimmed it. Technology, far superior to ours, is the world in which they live. The story at its roots is; old man enlists the help of a farm boy to go rescue the princess and fight the bad guys.

That story can be told in just about any timeline or setting.

Yes, but the genre of the story is tied to the setting. Set it in the 19th century in the southwest and you have a western. Set it in the 9th century in France and you have a historical fiction. Set it today and you have contemporary fiction. Set it in the future (or a long ago high tech society) and you have science fiction. The setting is where you find most of the tropes. If you can tie the tropes into the story in such a way that the story really isn’t the same without them, then you have something indisputable. But what Lucas did was tie Star Wars to Campbell. Campbell’s work is not tied to any genre - it is tied to story telling in general. So what Lucas did was to tie into science fiction tropes to tell his samurai story based on Campbell’s work. He pulled in space ships, robots, FTL, artificial gravity, ESP, and a galactic empire. He envisioned an series of full length movies in the spirit of Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon, but left the camp behind. He kept the whimsy for the kids, but also crafted a serious story for all ages (that was the purpose of Cambell’s work). Outside of Campbell and the Samurai, his influences are all science fiction.

And the choice is not hard science fiction (based on real science and plausible futures) or fantasy. If you think that you are not much of a science fiction fan because you just dumped 3/4 of the genre into fantasy. Most science fiction is soft science fiction, meaning that you tell a plausible story and make it sound possible. Hard science fiction is just telling a possible story with little to no exploration of things that have not been proven to be possible. Fantasy on the other hand is telling stories of the impossible. Usually mysticism and magic provides the suspension of belief. Face it, we have no record of demon hoards ravaging the world or super demons breaking their bonds to endanger the world. We can conceive that FTL and artificial gravity could exist some day even though science currently says it is impossible (they once said going faster than sound was impossible). Older stories that explored our solar system before we really knew what it was like have not been rendered fantasy by new scientific discoveries. They are still science fiction, just outdated. Jules Verne’s works have not ceased to be science fiction just because some things have come to pass and others have proven impossible. They are still science fiction and always will be. The science is just outdated.

The force is 90% ESP and is a minor part of the story told. Luke’s journey is mostly to become a warrior to defeat Vader and the Emperor and then Luke makes a twist by sacrificing himself to save his father and his father kills the Emperor, sacrificing himself in the process. Luke’s main story is not dependent on the force, but on his own character. You could set Luke’s story in any genre, but Lucas chose to borrow from science fiction for the setting. Star Wars is as much science fiction as Foundation, Dune, Buck Rogers, and Flash Gordon.

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#1241597
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

The asteroid belt in our own solar system was of concern with early unmanned probes until it’s actual composition was better known.
https://www.spaceanswers.com/solar-system/can-you-fly-through-the-asteroid-belt-unharmed/
No giant slugs of course.

“You’re not actually going into an asteroid field,” “Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1,” the implication in both being that going through any asteroid field is incredibly dangerous.

Look, I don’t care if in reality some asteroid fields are dangerous or not. Doesn’t matter to me, and it doesn’t matter to the movies I watch, clearly. That’s the point. In Star Wars, they don’t do a scan or some shit of this particular asteroid field to see how dangerous it is, they just barge right in, with it being dangerous as a given. Even Threepio’s numbers are just complete random bullshit, done to establish the threat in a way that’s true to his character (and, of course, Han’s).

And how many times do they do the exact same thing in Star Trek?