walkingdork

Okay one last response and then I'm done (probably). My sincerest apologies to those who come on this thread for a serious conversation and have it ruined by my idea of poking fun (that includes Darth_Ender).

Darth_Ender I seriously apologize for personally insulting you. Most of the comments below are just poking fun although I do admit I tend to poke a little harder than what is appropriate. In my circle of friends we may joke that you guys are believing in a load of nonsense but that is not appropriate to say to you, your people, and especially not in this thread.

However, I think you need to have some thicker skin, especially on the internet. You can't control what dicks like me are going to say, you can only control how you respond (something I'm not great at either). I am rarely typing angry on the internet and only Ferris has managed to ruffle my feathers on OT. I don't hate you (or Ferris for the record).

Let me just defend some of my comments because I think you are taking some of them to heart, when it's not necessary.

 

darth_ender said:

walkingdork said:

 My only idea is that maybe Noah taught all the animals to row during the flood, but even then it's an impossible trek. Unicorns probably died off because they had to get out and push. :)

I’m sure you feel your smiley makes this innocent, but in conjunction with other statements, it comes off as rude.  I am already aware of the complaints against the idea that the Garden of Eden is in America, and don’t need you to continually poke fun at it.

First of all this isn't even an original joke. There are countless images, posters, t-shirts, video clips of unicorns missing the boat, falling out of the boat, etc. I can only see the humor and I'm sure you must understand that these stories cannot be taken serious by nonbelievers.

If I wanted to prove your religion wrong, I would start with the easy stuff like "snakes can't talk" and "virgins can't get pregnant." :P

Again, I see a little tongue face, so I’m sure you feel it was all in good fun.  However, you don’t really understand my religion.  However literally or figuratively you wish to interpret the Bible, this statement does nothing but make you come off as a jerk.  “Oh really?  Snakes don’t talk?  Didn’t know that!  Virgins can’t get pregnant?!  That’s it, I quit!”  There are various interpretations of things like this anyway, but the primary thing to remember is that most religions accept that God works miracles, wherein our understanding is defied.  Your oversimplification appears quite condescending.

Again you can't be surprised if nonbelievers think this is a ridiculous notion...and you can't be surprised that I pointed it out. But yeah, I'm being a dick about it. What I don't understand is why you are so sensitive about it. I don't get wild when people tell me that it's impossible to imagine humans evolving from apes or even if they think I'm an idiot for believing it. We all believe different things and things that make sense to me look foolish to others I'm sure.

I hear what you are saying. I still think it's all made up bullshit, but I hear what you are saying. Like the universe is big enough to account for the possibility that there is a mountain in the sky where gods of many talents toy with the human race. And maybe one of those gods bangs a human chick and the son grows up to fight monsters like a slithery snake chick with snakes for hair.

I know I'm being shitty about it, (and I really do feel what you are saying), but I think there is a difference between infinite possibilities and moral fairy tales/parables told for generations. I do realize however that you were just pointing out the possibility of a talking snake and not advocating for them.

Do you think that’s not condescending and insulting, regardless of it being directed at Bingowings?  It’s not like religious persons could not say equally diminutive remarks.  Even if you think it’s made up, you don’t have to say things the way you do.  It is truly rude, and considering my efforts to be respectful every time you made statements like this, you could at reconsider your style.  You oversimplify something important to others and then mock your simplistic representation…bravo, that’s an intelligent thing to do.  This coming from the guy who clearly is no bigot.

First of all I don't know why this is a bad statement. I made a shitty statement, pointed out my shitty statement, and continued with my point. I also personally apologized to Bingowings.

And how can you say that the story of Mount Olympus and Greek mythology isn't real? Maybe Zeus is still sitting at his thrown pissed off at the notion of Monotheism. :)

I know I'm not helping, but relax it's meant to be funny.

I know there is no absolute proof that a god/creator does or does not exist. We debate about how the universe started but the why is unclear. I could be agnostic but the idea that somehow someone has managed to map out the whole history of creation by a god in fine detail is such a turn off. I might believe in the possibility that some deity flipped the switched and started the universe but (like Hawking and other physicists) the idea that a god temporarily changes the law of physics to create miracles or bring upon his will is too much.

@darth_ender

I know, I know. More conversation that should be in the religion thread. Well it's too late! Click.

 When I clearly asked for respect and proper behavior in this thread in the beginning, you apparently don’t respect those wishes.  I don’t mind diverting off topic, but to do so while being disagreeable and, er, “crappy” about it…you could have just moved your thoughts to another thread, or at least not shown your disregard for my wishes in such an uncouth manner.

This statement was still part of my response to Bingowings and I think it's an honest and candid explanation of my lack of faith. No jokes even.

And my last comment was recognizing that I was off the subject so you wouldn't get pissed. Didn't work...but that was my intent.

So Mormons...we joke about the "magic underwear," but what is it actually all about? 

Yeah, we Mormons aren’t the butts of jokes a lot already.  I haven’t already put my religion and my ability to defend it on the line.  You have to point out that everyone jokes about it, despite the level of sacredness I hold for it.

That is the term that nonbelievers use because "protective underwear" or "spiritual underwear" sounds the same. Any underwear that does anything other than keep my parts from rubbing directly on my jeans is "magic" to me.

I agree, Mormon's beliefs are just a silly as other Christian beliefs, but he should still be allowed to be President.

 Yes, it's true that atheists think that believing in talking snakes and shrubs, splitting seas, and fitting 2 of every animal (does that include the millions of insect species?) into a giant boat is ridiculous. And yes they believe that those things defy common sense and critical thinking.

So our beliefs are “silly,” but of course you make no pretense at being more intelligent than Mormons or other Christians.  You clearly are greater at critical thinking and therefore do not fall for the fairy tales we simpletons believe in.  No, you hardly ever come off as arrogant or of greater intelligence.

I'm not smarter, I just depend on what seems logical verses what seems impossible. Call it lack of imagination or faith, that's just what I believe. I'm sure you've heard a story before that you just couldn't believe. I caught a fish "this big." That's just how I think of religion. I wasn't there, I don't think those things are possible and some of them even sound silly.

You also left out the nice things I said about Mitt Romney.

And finally:

This statement could not be more arrogant and is exactly why nonreligious people can't stand some religious people. So people have to accept Christ to go to heaven, but if you don't it will just be forced on your name when you die.

May your corpse be raped and dismembered, sir!

Uh, how was that anything but crossing a line?  Did you not read what I’d said before?  Did I not say that I understood their reasoning and that the problem was corrected?  And you called me, personally, arrogant, in spite of no such stance.  Instead, I presented why my church does what it does, the reasoning behind it, and my reason why I would not be offended under similar circumstances.  However, that is just me.  We never have forced anything down anyone’s throat.  Raping and dismembering my corpse?  How is that anywhere equivalent?

I was pointing out that you are doing something against a dead person's wishes and without the ability to defense his/herself. That kind of offends me. I feel like it is similar to baptising a nonbelievers baby or something, but of course I had to say it in my "taking it too far" way. I don't actually want to your corpse to be raped or dismembered.

Oh, I almost did forget:

You can forward all your complaints to my inbox, I'll not be posting on these subjects any longer. I've seen all I need to see.

This sounds to me like a generalization, either about “good Christian boys” or perhaps just Mormons.  Either way, don’t let one bad apple ruin your experience or you're simply being the bigot you claim not to be.

Where's the generalization? I think we've both had enough of each other and I'm guessing Frink has probably had enough of me as well since he's correcting my grammar (or maybe I'm misinterpreting that). So I'd figured I'd walk away and if you were truly pissed or if someone felt they needed to call me on something they could do it personally instead of making a bigger scene (which we are continuing to do).

BTW, how am I doing so far, TV's Frink? :D

On top of that, virtually every comment you make is crass and crude.  That’s fine and dandy for so many other threads, but why bring it here?

I was curious about Mormons and I happen to be crass.

Look, you can hate me all you want.

I don't. It's not my style to hate people.

I know I can overreact at times, especially given that we’ve already had a little argument in the politics thread, and therefore I’m more cautious when reading your comments.  But honestly, you cannot sit there and tell me you think you have not been disrespectful.  

I know it's disrespectful, but I assumed that we'd all have thick enough skin to tolerate it and have a laugh. Please poke back everyone, I can take it. I just don't understand why it is taken so personally. Don't get emotional, just throw it back.

And if you read through all my comments, you simply cannot believe that I have an "I already know I'm right so don't question me" attitude.  How could I start such a thread with that mindset?  I know of much of the criticism leveled at my faith and at religion in general, and chose to take it head on in order to clarify.  I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm right about anything (except maybe that there are cultures we currently know nothing about in spite of the likelihood that they once existed right where we stand).

Statement retracted. I apologize, that was completely of of line.

As I’ve said, I can be a hot head.  I want you to know that you are still welcome to comment here, and I will try not to get angry so easily.  That said, I ask you to consider your words more carefully, in spite of what you may be smoking.  I should not have made either the divorce comment or the myspleen comment.  I truly apologize.

Apology accepted. I think I'll tone it down and we can both try not to be personal. Hopefully I haven't further insulted anyone, and if I have...well then I don't know what to do. I don't mean to hurt people's feelings I just mean to push a few buttons and stir it up a little. It's almost never personal.

PS forgive the bizarre format, as it was difficult gathering all these quotes together and getting the quotes right.

I'll see your bizarre format and raise you an even more ridiculous format. What's the record for longest post?

darth_ender said:

 But to have this guy constantly insulting me, my faith specifically, and religion in general, claiming to be intellectually and morally superior because he doesn't believe in a "made up Lord," and yet to stoop to such low levels, a hot head like me can only take so much. 

Other than my Greek God example which was part of a discussion with Bingowings, my rape your corpse comment and our back and forth over the last page, what have I said on this thread?

I don't claim to have the moral high ground. I've already said I dated a Mormon chick and praised Mitt Romney so I'm not hating on all Mormons (just you buddy). I never said that religious people are less intelligent either, that just your generalized opinion about atheists that wave around every time you don't hear what you want.

As mentioned before, some of my family is very religious and I have no issue with them. Hell I even volunteered as a youth leader at my exwifes church. My exwife and a lot of my friends are super religious Christians and I don't have issues with them. Why? Because they don't have the "I already know I'm right so don't question me" attitude that you seem to carry.

TV's Frink said:

walkingdork said:

Wow, neither of is acting very Christian, huh?

You forgot a word.

umm, thank you?

darth_ender said:

It's a good thing you never, ever come off as arrogant.  It's only those obnoxious, over-the-top atheists that cause religious folks to be apprehensive towards the rest.

I've never claimed to not be arrogant. Yes, please be apprehensive towards the rest. We do a lot better when we don't get caught up in your holier than thou bullshit.

You, sir, are a disrespectful, self-righteous, high-horsed jerk.  I can hardly imagine why a 29 or 30 year-old like you might be divorced and why there was some sort of alienation between OT.com and myspleen.  Feel free to take this argument to a different thread, possibly here, or even more appropriately here.  Or at least before you reveal yourself as an idiot, use that superior intellect and intelligently read and comprehend my posts. 

Wow, neither of us is acting very Christian, huh? The difference is I don't claim to be Christian. What's your excuse? What is your made up Lord going to think of you behavior? Also I don't mind being called an idiot unless it's coming from someone who believes that Hebrews are from the Midwest.

You don't even know the background of my divorce, do you? No? Then kindly fuck off. I was married for three years and it was clear to both sides that it would not last very early on, so we separated before it got ugly. We remain friends and we have had no issues with the custody over our two wonderful children.

As for OT's relationship to Myspleen it has not been this strong since Xavier was the sole administrator (like 4-5 years ago). And no, I'm not claiming that it is because of me.

I tell you what, I am being an asshole so why don't you be a good Christian boy and forgive me. You can forward all your complaints to my inbox, I'll not be posting on these subjects any longer. I've seen all I need to see.

TV's Frink said:

walkingdork said:

 

darth_ender said:

To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

This statement could not be more arrogant and is exactly why nonreligious people can't stand some religious people. So people have to except Christ to go to heaven, but if you don't it will just be forced on your name when you die.

May your corpse be raped and dismembered, sir!

 

That could have been handled better.

What for? There is clearly no respect for the wishes of the dead.

Also, you misspelled "accept."

Well...shit. :)

TV's Frink said:

Yes, but the ceremony they get in the afterlife is unnecessary for anyone but the living.  The dead can have a ceremony given to them by the dead, or by Jesus, or whomever.

In fact, you could argue that a baptism is entirely unnecessary for the living as well.  If God can indeed look into my heart and know my innermost thoughts, would he not know that I had accepted Christ as my savior?  Why is there this need to declare it in public?

I agree.

Of course, being non-religious myself, I think the way I live my life and treat others is much more important.  If there is a God, and this God is truly above mortal emotions like pride and jealousy, he/she would not even care if I didn't believe in him/her.  He/she would only care about how I lived my life.

God's not above mortal emotions. God is described throughout the Bible as being a jealous God (an trait that even some humans have managed to overcome).

 

darth_ender said:

To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

This statement could not be more arrogant and is exactly why nonreligious people can't stand some religious people. So people have to accept Christ to go to heaven, but if you don't it will just be forced on your name when you die.

May your corpse be raped and dismembered, sir!

Hoth-Nudist said:

WhatsMyName said:

Can't deny that Maul was the best Sith ever...In the movies that is.

Um no.  (Bill Lumberg voice)- yyyyyeah, um, well Im gonna have to sorta disagree with you there.

 

Surely you mean the prequals? Right?

I like Count Dooku over Darth Maul.

Well fuck. How are the Brewers this terrible tonight? Pretty soon they are going to let fans pitch. "What's that? You pitched in high school? Well good, you've got the next inning."

I want Darth Mel, Darth Maul's shorter, fatter brother voice by Mel Brooks. I can think of nothing better than a Sith using the word "schmuck."

Here we in Wisconsin we do have a fair amount of cubs fans. I don't hate them, I pity them. How you can spend that kind of coin on players and fail so often? It's like they through money straight into the garbage.

Granted the Brewers have been notoriously horrible in the last 2 decades (other than the last couple years) but we haven't spent nearly that kind of money on players.

I thought I was getting off the subject :)

So Mormons...we joke about the "magic underwear," but what is it actually all about?

TV's Frink said:

walkingdork said:

Can we show pictures of bearded ax-wounds?

 

I don't even know what this means.

Bearded Ax-wounds = vaginas. Take a moment to picture it in your head.

Well hopefully the Brewers can knock the Cards off in their next two home games, but I'm having some doubts. St Louis knows how to push our buttons a little to well.

Can we show pictures of bearded ax-wounds?

Bingowings said:

The universe is big enough to account for the possibility of talking snakes and virgin births.

On a universal scale if you can imagine it, it possibly exists somewhere, it's just not necessarily probable you will experience it.

If you were all powerful then you could collapse those probabilities, however small, into certainties.

That doesn't prove God is there and did it but it doesn't provide absolute proof that he doesn't and didn't.

I hear what you are saying. I still think it's all made up bullshit, but I hear what you are saying. Like the universe is big enough to account for the possibility that there is a mountain in the sky where gods of many talents toy with the human race. And maybe one of those gods bangs a human chick and the son grows up to fight monsters like a slithery snake chick with snakes for hair.

I know I'm being shitty about it, (and I really do feel what you are saying), but I think there is a difference between infinite possibilities and moral fairy tales/parables told for generations. I do realize however that you were just pointing out the possibility of a talking snake and not advocating for them.

I know there is no absolute proof that a god/creator does or does not exist. We debate about how the universe started but the why is unclear. I could be agnostic but the idea that somehow someone has managed to map out the whole history of creation by a god in fine detail is such a turn off. I might believe in the possibility that some deity flipped the switched and started the universe but (like Hawking and other physicists) the idea that a god temporarily changes the law of physics to create miracles or bring upon his will is too much.

@darth_ender

I know, I know. More conversation that should be in the religion thread. Well it's too late! Click.

Sluggo said:

That one did crack me up. 

I get bothered that folks use a man's dying from cancer as a springboard to get all political.  

At least we still have Eddie Money.

HAHA, that is very true.

I'm not trying to prove your religion wrong I'm just saying (and agreeing with whoever brought up first) that we know LOTS about the other groups who are brought up in the Bible.

If I wanted to prove your religion wrong, I would start with the easy stuff like "snakes can't talk" and "virgins can't get pregnant." :P

darth_ender said:

walkingdork said:

doubleofive said:

One of my big things with Mormonism is that a lot of the events of the Old and New Testament and most of the places have other historical sources and archaeological evidence to support that they existed at one time. You literally can't throw a rock in the Middle East without breaking a clay pot with some historical document or hit an ancient city in the sands.

But the Book of Mormon seems to be the only record of an entire Jewish civilization that lived in America for thousands(?) of years. How do the leadership explain that no one has ever found their currency, old city walls, etc.?

Speaking of the leadership, one of my other big things is that I find it really hard to believe that Jesus would let the entire salvation of the world fall apart so soon after the Resurrection and would let it continue that way for 1800 years, until He remembered that He made this newer testament and needed to establish a succession of prophets He never mentioned needing. To me, letting the church wander about for 1800 years when they couldn't rebel against things they were never told sounds like one of those moves Tyr was talking about.

I agree. It's hard to believe that anything happened in America when some of the other civilizations they come across, like the Hittites, where around throughout the Bronze Age and are well documented. I know darth_ender mentioned that some groups of people migrated, but the migration from Asia to the Americas took tens of thousands of years, which is longer than some Christians think the earth is.

My only idea is that maybe Noah taught all the animals to row during the flood, but even then it's an impossible trek. Unicorns probably died off because they had to get out and push. :)

I believe the Jewish dietary laws were more for the Israelites of the time. Uncooked pork can have all kinds of bad things in them, and the locals were using them for sacrifices and stuff. Instead of giving the Israelites a cook book, God said to just avoid it completely.

Yeah, you can't eat pigs and snakes all willy nilly.

I know you're teasing and pointing out perceived foibles, but if you do indeed want to poke fun, the religion thread is probably a better place to do it.  As I said, I don't have the answer but rather a few suggested possibilities.  There are entire civilizations that we don't learn about for years and years in spite of their being right under our nose (I've read this before and will try to find my source, but I have to start wrapping up for today though I'm not done answering everyone).  Sometimes we draw absolute conclusions based on minimal archaeological evidence.  Occam's razor suggests we utilize the simplest answer, but it has been demonstrated time and time again that, while there is wisdom in this, the truth is often far more complicated than we presently understand.

We actually know quite a bit about the Hittites and The Bronze Age in general, especially because of all the clashes between them and the Egyptians, Assyrians, etc. If you want to believe what you belief, have at it. It's your right, but don't blame "minimal archaeological evidence" because there is plenty of it.

sean wookie said:

haha, very nice.

Mrebo said:

My question is why have you chosen to put your faith into Mormonism?

I would assume most Mormons are Mormons because their parents brought them up that way. The same goes for most religions.

Xhonzi may have said it in harsh way (on another thread), but I agree that children should be left alone until they are an age where they can reason for themselves. We are talking about about an age where kids are trusting enough to believe that an old guy lives on the North Pole and delivers gifts to all the children of the world in a single night in a sled pulled by flying reindeer.

In my junior year of high school (1999-2000) I dated an Asian chick who was adopted by a Mormon family. I remember her family refused to drink any beverage with caffeine but that her little brother could drink Caffeine Free Mountain Dew (gross).

I remember she couldn't come to my New Years Eve party because her family was hunkering down for some scary event. Did the Mormons have some sort of end of the world belief for the year 2000? Or was it just Y2K nonsense? I never asked because her quirks were too much for me (although she was damn cute) and we broke up.

doubleofive said:

One of my big things with Mormonism is that a lot of the events of the Old and New Testament and most of the places have other historical sources and archaeological evidence to support that they existed at one time. You literally can't throw a rock in the Middle East without breaking a clay pot with some historical document or hit an ancient city in the sands.

But the Book of Mormon seems to be the only record of an entire Jewish civilization that lived in America for thousands(?) of years. How do the leadership explain that no one has ever found their currency, old city walls, etc.?

Speaking of the leadership, one of my other big things is that I find it really hard to believe that Jesus would let the entire salvation of the world fall apart so soon after the Resurrection and would let it continue that way for 1800 years, until He remembered that He made this newer testament and needed to establish a succession of prophets He never mentioned needing. To me, letting the church wander about for 1800 years when they couldn't rebel against things they were never told sounds like one of those moves Tyr was talking about.

I agree. It's hard to believe that anything happened in America when some of the other civilizations they come across, like the Hittites, where around throughout the Bronze Age and are well documented. I know darth_ender mentioned that some groups of people migrated, but the migration from Asia to the Americas took tens of thousands of years, which is longer than some Christians think the earth is.

My only idea is that maybe Noah taught all the animals to row during the flood, but even then it's an impossible trek. Unicorns probably died off because they had to get out and push. :)

I believe the Jewish dietary laws were more for the Israelites of the time. Uncooked pork can have all kinds of bad things in them, and the locals were using them for sacrifices and stuff. Instead of giving the Israelites a cook book, God said to just avoid it completely.

Yeah, you can't eat pigs and snakes all willy nilly.

I'm happy to see the Brew Crew tie it up tonight.