walking_carpet

hard to say because some scores are beautiful but the best parts are not really recorded in the movies. The completed soundtracks are always better than the music recorded and edited in the movie.  I had a 20-bit skywalker sound Star Wars Trilogy CD and lost it :(

overall, I still say the opening theme.  nothing comes close in any movie I have seen.  If the Star Wars opening theme is not the greatest score in cinema history, then haven't I watched a movie that has the better score yet.

ANH just has the best collection of scores and was put to use the best way:  force theme (binary sunset), throne room medal ceremony. 'Here they come'.  even the jawa theme!  we here stories of people that were inspired to go into filmmaking because of Star Wars.  I know a few people in high school that got into orchestra music because of star wars.

ESB:  if you listen to the imperial march on the soundtrack its awesome as hell.  but i always felt the movie could have utilized it better.  you hear the theme over and over again, but its always the same first dozen or so notes.  the SE made it worse.  Yoda's theme is just moving.  the little piece with luke encountering his projection of vader in the cave is excellent. as is the scene where frozen han is being escorted thru cloud city as luke watches on.

ROTJ: the music helps this movie a lot and has best collection of scores after ANH.  Jabba's theme.  LAPTI-NEK (flame away).  the litte piece that starts as soon as yoda passes away is just beautiful. JW had to come up with something more menacing than the imperial march for palpatine and absolutely nails it! The Ewoks have their detractors but the ewoke theme and battle for endor theme is great.  Last but not least - its not in the movie, but in the closing credits, the last minute when everything comes to a cresnedo. ROTJ may be the weakest of the OT, but certainly not the score.

TPM - duel of fates is probably the only piece of PT score thats as played as any of the OT scores.  augies municipal band was great too.  trade federation music was alright.  The funeral music is a hard one because I associate it with ROTS more even though it originated here.  

AOTC - the scores start to become less memorable :(  the coruscant chase did not sound anything special.  geonisis had no unique theme, neither did the droid factory.  Some reports indicate this was due to lucas not having the film ready for scoring :(  some of the incidental music, like when obi-wan is spying on dooku and when mace/obi-wan/yoda are talking at the jedi temple at the end of the movie, creates great mood.  The only full blown theme was the across the stars love theme, and its great.   I really liked the part that starts at 2:27 - but its not in the movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nk_WHHTQtY

ROTS: the best scores of the PT.  I like order 66, obi-wan versus anakin.  My favorite is Padme's Rumniations but in the actual movie, you cant hear it very well - also feel there should not have been the voice over.  I like grevious theme.  But there is also music that I felt misfired.  I really don't like the mustafar music. In fact, the entire sequence starting with Obi-wan arriving on tantive IV all the way thru obiwan and yoda discovering anakin killed the younglings just dind't work for me.  came off as too operatic and i don't think it was the right tone.  would have prefered the music more like pschyo or omen or shining to create a true sense of dread and horror.  just like when obi-wan says "im so sorry" and we cut to a scene of anakin all alone in mustafar.  that was pitch perfect.   

still amazing how JW went above and beyond the call of duty for Star Wars and created a score that just rocketed beyond anyones wildest imagination.  The above pieces would practically be a career for any other composer, but for JW it was all in the same saga!

WhatsMyName said:

What's wrong with CGI?

 nothing wrong with cgi as long as its used properly.  when you drown out a movie with excessive cgi thats completely unrealistic, thats a problem.  or if you have a disproportionate focus on cgi at the expense of every other aspect of filmmaking, thats a problem.  hence 'crap-fest'

Harmy said:

Well, I totally agree with Zombie that the most impact that the prequels had on the pop culture was that they became the example of a bad movie.

- So is the new Harry Potter film really so bad?

- Well, it's no Phantom Menace but it still sucks ass...

 this.

the only genuine pop-culture moment in the PT that brought back memories of OT (post 5/21/1999) was the now-famous yoda-dooku duel in AOTC.

but thats ONLY because it was yoda.  I don;t know which forum I saw it on, but someone said lucas used yoda as a cheap applause button. not unlike having gary coleman say 'whatcha talkin bout, willis'?   still, it did bring the house down.

Vaders birth should have been another, but it looks like the noooooooo made it infamous.

does anyone think the charcaters in the PT are as pop-culture famous as the characters in the austin powers movies?

other than that, i sometimes hear duel of fates, but nearly as much as any of the OT music. 

so much for the apologists claim that the PT will be revisited as a classic like blade runner.

sadly, the PT's claim to fame is its ineptitude.  Or, more accurately - a fall from grace.  Its the poster child for the proverbial 'cgi crap-fest'.  maybe green lantern will take the mantle now. 

Baronlando said:

The numbers are good, but I think they could have been a little higher without the bad press. at least maybe enough for the fabled Star Wars Saga Box, the holy grail of blu-ray, to sell more copies than Bridesmaids.

 dang, rose byrne has bragging rights for the #1, #2 and #5 blu ray sales spots

georgec said:

And on top of all that, Lucas is a delusional fool who thinks people don't like the prequels or his SE changes because that's some part of being a tortured, misunderstood artist. No, people don't like those things because they are terrible. As Phil Tippett said, it's "CGI shit."

nah...lucas knows the movies are garbage and cash-ins.  and he knows that people don't like them because they are garbage and cash-ins.  its the apologists that parrot the talkingpoint of lucas being a misunderstood artist that are delusional.

When Lucas said "special fx are just tools for telling a story, a special fx without a story is a pretty boring thing" he didn't mean that - he was just telling us what we wanted to hear.  just like when he says hollywood suits only care about money and marketing and not storytelling.  he knows he represents the most absolute extreme example of vapid cynical brand explotation.  but he needs the support of apologists.

hmmm..don't have video games, but guess it can work.  haven't tried a cartoon - any cartoon or a pixar cartoon?

i was watching Dark Knight blu ray when I saw it and was really unsettling. 

As for Watto, i have to admit he was fun if not as memorable as OT.  If you watch TPM, all the human characters interact better with Watto than they do with each other!!! Natalie was horrible, worthless in this movie but the look she gives watto when they cross paths in the Hangar is priceless. Funny that Watto was one of the only designs that Lucas was hands on.  He gets too much credit for his imagination - usually he just tells art department "make me a creature", "i need planets", "i need a warship", and the after further revisions he signs off.  But apparently the crew was confused about watto, so lucas was more involved. 

Sebulba was fun at first, but then he sucked during the pod race.  He had this deep baritone voice but in the pod race its a screechy high-pitched voice :(   

Rob Coleman spent a lot of time bringing the CGI characters to life.  he probably would have directed the PT movies better than Lucas did, even if he doesn;t have the formal traning.

TV's Frink said:

walking_carpet said:

it is interesting to hear people say that TPM is the best or 'most star wars like' and cite the film grain as one of the reasons.  I guess its kinda like how some people don't like Diamonds are Forever because it has such a plain look to it compared to the 60s Bond movies.

The difference is that AOTC and ROTS weren't shot on film but rather video, and THAT is why it's nice to see some grain.  There is no grain in the other two, making them look more like video games.

Unless I'm mistaken, they were still using film in 1971.

 right i understand.  DaF was on film, but it looks much different than Dr. No or FRWL. i was just making a comparison that how a movie looks can affect how we feel about watching it and its happened with other movies before.  It makes sense.

It really wasn't until i got my HDTV i started to understand this.  You know how TVs have that weird setting that adds frames to make it smooth?  no matter how good everything else is,  this setting throws it off.  

a really crazy example from my point of view is when CFL light bulbs first came out several years ago.  didn't matter if they were efficient, I could not stand them because I felt like I was living in a hospital :(  no comfort.

anyway, from what Im hearing, grain was removed from TPM blu ray and added to AOTC and ROTS.  So if all 3 were on a level playing field, I would think TPM is hurt the most.

according to bill hunt from digital bits, Lucas considered replacing ESB yoda with a CGI yoda.

I think something like that would have garnered a lot more attention among very casual fans.

I don't know how many more home video formats are left, but im sure one of these days he'll do something that will provoke a huge outcry across all types of fans.  

I mean, can you honestly rule out Lucas re-editing Han Solo saying "I know"?  maybe not while Ford is still with us.  But if he wanted to replace Yoda, then anything is fair game.

xhonzi said:

Having just sat through something* that is argualby (mostly) the Phantom Menace... and this being the first time in 6 years I've watched any of TPM...  Well...

Most of you know I'm an ardent PT hater.  Many of you may also know that I bear no fondness for TPM, Watto, Quigonn, film grain, or any of the other "redeeming" qualities that many see in this movie.  I consider TPM to be the objective worst of PT.

 But I just watched (mostly) it again.  And all I can say is that it is far more terrible than I recall and I can't understand how anyone could see anything redeeming in this movie.

 

it is interesting to hear people say that TPM is the best or 'most star wars like' and cite the film grain as one of the reasons.  I guess its kinda like how some people don't like Diamonds are Forever because it has such a plain look to it compared to the 60s Bond movies. If the reports Im hearing about TPM blu ray are correct,  I wonder if this will still be the case.

I saw TPM last year for the first time in several years.  while the tatooine setting is cozy and familiar and the 10 seconds of the obi-wan/darth maul duel is cool, and farts/midicolorions/virgin birth/2 headed sportscaster no longer make me gag, my view has not changed;  save for the production values, this is the worst movie i have ever seen (yes, I saw Gigli and Godzilla ).  Jar Jar and Jake Lloyd were the least of TPMs problems. :(

In 1999, I was startled when reports started  to leak that the movie wasn't good.  But it wasn't until i was flipping thru the "Making of Episode I" book and on the last page, Lucas says "Like Star Wars, for every person that likes it, 3 will hate it" that I KNEW the movie was going to suck.  I mean, who the hell ends a "making of" movie book like that?! Answer: someone that knows damn well they just made the biggest POS of all time and is trying to pre-emptively defuse the fallout.  And Im sure we are remember those wonderful interviews of lucas blabbing on and on about how Studio Suits have a vendetta against him, Theatre owners hate him, everyone hates him, nobody ever liked Star Wars, the Media hates him, the OT was always bad, 'I made it bad on purpose' etc etc.

whats hilarious on the DVD commentary, the VERY SECOND episode I starts, Lucas immediately says "so this is episode I and you have to remember this is just the first episode".  how inspiring...

It was the same thing for IJATKOTCS. in that vanity fair article, Lucas is whining that everyone hates him and internet critics are fully ready to trash the movie no matter how it turns out.  LOL, gotta hand it to lucas.  His work ethic for writing and directing may be non-existent,  but he is the ultimate go-getter at making excuses, and proactivley spinning.  :(

none said:

walking_carpet wrote:  but he cannot order LoC prints to be destroyed?

The LoC is in no way ever going to destroy a work on purpose.  But as what may have happened with the Star Wars given to the NFR, Lucasfilm could have asked for the print back, the LoC returns the print, and Lucasfilm never returns it.

From the link danny_boy just posted: (article written in 1993)

Archives, however, are restricted in certain other uses of the copyright-protected films they physically preserve. (They may make films available for on-site study but without permission of the copyright holder or the transfer of rights, archives generally cannot publicly exhibit copyrighted films or distribute them for sale. For further discussion of these access questions, involving copyright, fair use, and "public domain" films, see Section 8.)

 

interesting.  i'll read further.  one of these days ill visit the LoC cuz my dad swears by it and thinks its one of the greatest things our gov created. 

if lucas is truly keen on wiping the OOT off the face of the earth, its interesting he hasn't demanded the prints from the LoC to be given back.  Of course, I also don't believe that he doesn't have pristine remastered copies (he would have to be stupid not to).  its just another trump card  he's keeping in his pocket.  one day he will make enough changes to piss everyone off and hurt the franchise and at this point he'll release the OOT. 

as for the academy awards, I think the academy should vacate all the awards and nominations.  like what the NCAA does.  Or what the national registry for historic landmarks did when the bears modified soldier field.

 if lucas truly believes that the 1977 edition was just a 'workprint',  then vacate the awards and nominations.  and all box office records.  that means ANH only made $150 million. 

lucas probably wouldn't mind - he'll lose a couple nominations but no awards.  and  he would probably love seeing John Dykstra lose an award.

true, the cast and crew (the real stars of the OT) would scream in protest and with good reason.  And every union/guild would fight it. 

True, it comes off as 'two wrongs to make a right'.  but you can't have awards/nominations for films 'that do not exist'.  Maybe that'll apply pressure to have the OOT films properly released.

one last note, i am a little worried about this idea that there is a huge backlog of films that the LoC need to restore and protect.  why so many?  i heard about London After Midnight and would hope what happened with that movie wouldn't be repeated. doing some digging on wikipedia, looks like there are far more films from 20s and 30s that deteriorated than i first realized

skyjedi2005 said:

David Tatterstall's boring ho hum cinematography

I kinda got the photography bug this summer and barely know what an f stop is, so im definitely a rookie but it is something i look for.

 its funny for a supposed 'visual filmmaker', you don't hear or read to much about david tattersalls contributions.  I know he was part of the young indiana jones crew. The only anecdotes i can think of was how they setup the lights in that italian castle and the lighting of vader's surgery. 

I can think of several instances where shots are not as interesting as erik tiemans and ryan church's paintings.  I guess AOTC was pretty photogenic, but so much of ROTS alternated between flat or garish.  everything captured on utapau sucks! :(

99% of the time when you hear about the camerawork its regarding the new digital cameras, thats it.  its almost as if the DP was made irrelevant.  Maybe with all that green screen, it is :(

I was concerned that 'digital cinema' was going to make cinematography obsolete because of inconvenience.  Kinda how modern day houses don't have the charm of vintage houses.  but almost 10 years later, there are plenty of films shot in digital that look pretty good.  Michael Mann's collateral, for example.  So did Superman Returns. 

I know lucas had issues with gilbert taylor on ANH and i heard rumors that ROTJ had another DP that was fired (and that film i always thought looked surprisingly plain)

ESB, OTOH, must have had a great DP.  dagobah was on a soundstage, but that is one cool looking swamp.  He's worked on some David cronenberg movies that are cool and have an interesting look to them. 

Mrebo said:

Cuchulainn said:

ReallyPuggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Cuchulainn said:

I'm not sure that it's such a big deal as the prequels are intended to be watched after the OT. Either that or Lucas is an even shittier writer than I thought.

I believe that Lucas has indicated that his intent is for PT movies to be viewed before the OT.  So as to your second sentence, QED.

Really? Jesus, he hasn't a clue, has he?

Good read on that here.

 That link pretty much sums up what I was going to say.

 he will always insist that its meant to be viewed in numerical order.   Just as he will always insist that this was meant to be one big saga.  Of course it doesn't work because of how the movies are written and filmed. 

Even before TPM came out, I would have thought of the PT as a companion piece to the OT.  And its kinda cool to go back in time,  especially for the most storied movie series ever.  A lot of us felt that way.  And if you watch these movies, it doesn't take much to realize lucas was mindful of the fact everyone already saw the OT.    Besides the ESB reveal, thereare scores of other examples - just look at how the force is not really explained in detail until the OT. And why?  because there wouldn't be a need to.  Apologists say "well, thats because yoda and obi-wan lost their ways and it took them 20 years to rediscover the force".

I heard one interesting point that Lucas was able to get away with this 'expanded-saga' idea because alec guiness gave the impression he was not being entirely truthful when telling Luke about anakin's death.  Maybe so, but the way he handled Padme's death in ROTS given what was said in ROTJ just shows me he flat out does not give a shit about storytelling, period.

If 456123 does not work, I guess frink and 005 has the next best idea.  but instead of 451236, i would take it a step further and say 45 6(up to luke meeting vader on endor) 123 (minus padme's death) and then back to 6 ;P

just so im clear - as a copyright holder, lucas can control what the LoC can screen or make copies for distribution?  but he cannot order LoC prints to be destroyed?

Ziggy Stardust said:

I would have walked up to him to try to start a conversation, and then I saw the book that he was carrying.

could be worse, he coulda been drawing a picture of anakin and padme holding hands :(

you shoulda talked to him.

if the kid honestly likes the PT, no harm no foul; welcome to The Once Proud Saga Formerly Known as Star Wars.  But if he is a PT apologist, and he just spouts TFN/LFL talking points, and claims Lucas is a transcendental genius whose true peers are Da Vinci, Plato, Einstein, Gandhi and all the haters don't get it -then that an entirely different matter.

And really thats the difference - on the internet, I've really only come across one first-generation person outside of TFN (on hometheaterforum) that genuinely enjoyed the PT.  he would actually give examples of what he liked and not make excuses for what was missing or contradicting the OT.  and he loves the OT.  it was a real eye-opener when he said he wouldn't buy the blu ray because of the ROTJ change.   

If he was an apologist, he would have a line-by-line reply to every single criticsm with the following talking points: 

"its supposed to be like the serials"

"lucas says star wars is a silent movie"

"its supposed to be like a japanese movie" 

"its suppose to be a poem"

...and if all else failed, they would desperately try to find something similiar in the OT and say "how come nobody criticizes this?".  The most common example, of course, is the "Toshi Station..power converters" line.  whats hilarious is 99 times out of 100, this is the ONLY line of dialog they use.  TPM has pages upon pages of bad dialog and apologists can only find this one line.

As I said before, IMO the real danger is not kids enjoying the PT, but kids convincing themselves to like the PT because they are brainwashed by going to TFN or swallowing all of Lucas' BS. 

Darth Bizarro said:

-Kick Ass

 

been hearin' way too much about this movie and curiosity is gettin the better of me.  guess i gotta go check it out.

agree with darth bizarro

not a parent, but i think just pop in star wars and watch it on your own...if they get curious, they'll sit down and watch it with you.  Friend of mine says she did that with her kids.  Didn't force PT or OT.  Last i heard, PT is at a disadvantage cuz there is no Chewie :)

Its also interesting to note that many parents of young kids find the Episode III scene with anakin ready to kill the younglings a huge turn-off and won't let them watch it becuase of that!

anway, kids today watching OT would be like me when i first saw the Wizard of Oz 30 years ago.  it didn't matter to me that the film was made in 1939 and I was watching it for the first time in 1981.  It still worked.

Now visual effects have increased exponentially from 1977-2011 compared to 1939 to 1981,  and there are much more fantasy films and video games nowadays (my dad once said that when Star Wars came out the only movie that could compare was in fact The Wizard of Oz) so it may not be the best analogy.

but i would never sell the OT short. and if they still genuinely like the PT, que sera sera.  

But they have to honestly like it better - not because they went on TFN and read that "lucas is a genius for making the TPM space battle suck ass otherwise it would overshadow the OT space battles which occur much later when you watch the films in numerical order!" or "it totally makes sense that anakin and padme have no chemistry cuz its supposed to be a failed romance, lucas is a genius!!"

skyjedi2005 said:

I was pretty pissed off myself that Episode II and III did not get the all access fly on the wall documentary as did episode I.

That put you in the mind of Lucas and his crazyness, like"Jar Jar is the key to this thing".  And "i made more American graffiti and it made ten cents", "you can destroy these things it is possible."

LOL, No chance of that happening.

A lot of people believe "The Beginning" was this hard-hitting no-holds barred type of documentary but i didn't see it that way.  One thing, it would be totally out-of-character for LFL to have something that wasn't completely sanitzed and fluff.  another thing is that TPM was such a train-wreck FUBAR that there was no way to cover it up or spin it. 

For jar Jar - at one point lucas and mccallum talk about how cool it would be to have a full CGI character.  So they admit to just wanting a full CGI character, just for the sake of having one. 

I heard a rumor that natalie was injured during this movie - fat chance of any documentary having footage of that!! lol

That scene with lucas talking about "poems and stanzas" was so hilarious.  and they was he rolls his eyes you can just see he's full of shit.  of course he couldn't just say "im gonna repeat and rehash stuff cuz im running out of ideas and never had this saga planned out, so im resorting to gimmickry and redundancy".  But because he used "poems, verses", people bought into it and you heard crap like "oh look! AOTC has asteroid battle!!  like in ESB!! lucas says he likes recurring themes!! this is absolute genius!!!"  :(

anyway,  I thought the within a minute was a good idea for documentary -  it just got a little out-of-scope when talking about the caterer (!) and the payroll department ;)

is there anything that charts how may blu ray players are sold each year?  that would give us a better idea on how many households have a blu ray player (and yes, I would include PS3).  My nieghbor has a home theatre in box combo that includes a blu ray player.  if they make these combo packages with blu ray, then you can't really say blu ray is just for the niche high-end market.

it didn't have the greatest launch because of recession and HD-DVD war.  I was able to snag a samsung bdp1000 in Jan 2008 for only $120 plus 5 free movies.  most players at the time were $400 - $800!! it was immediately after warner bros said they were going with blu ray exclusive - i knew then the war was over.

I think the way some people describe blu ray as a niche format can be more applied to home 3D.

i was flipping thru a few pages of that issues and it looks like there is an article on the clone wars tv show.  I haven't read it but some of the higlighted quotes form lucas are hilarious:

"we're going back to the roots of star wars"

"this is star wars. i make no distinction between this series and the films"

so basically - the PT movies are fine; its just if we want to see the relationships between obi-wan, anakin and padme - thats what the tv show is for.

belated happy 60th b-day to Mark!

Mrebo said:

 I definitely appreciated that she hinted she didn't like what was done with Jar Jar on the screen.

I liked that one of the vehicle designers criticized the excessive use of CGI which looked like "plastic" and that the universe ended up looking too pristine, unlike the OT which he loved for its realistic dirtiness accentuated by the film grain.

It all reminded me of the promise and hope for the PT that I felt before '99. And that even the designers who were so enmeshed in creating the PT realize the execution was not good.

 didn't know that even the art designers were less than enthusiastic :(

  Although I heard a rumor that lucas and doug chaing butted heads.

I was very impressed with terryl whitlach during those episode I webcasts- especially when she said she always tries to create a skeleton first, which helps create realistic creatures.  was thinking to myself 'man, this is gonna be great - these guys know what they're doing!!"  :(

Art of ATOC was the only PT thing I ever got.  There was something about the art design i was drawn too, even if the movie was still not good.  wasn't until a few years ago i finally realized what it was.  There's actually something very interesting visually with that movie that I never saw anyone else mention - and i don't think it was intentional because ROTS did not share the same characteristic.

would have considered the ROTS art book but I kept hearing about this so-called 'visual script'  which was supposed to be cool.  sadly, it was never released.

all kinds of fans insist that whatever one thinks of the PT, it was an injustice that Trisha Biggar did not get recognized with any oscar nominations.  That may be true,  but honestly  they should blast lucas for letting everyone down and allowing the seriously acute flaws of the PT overshadow any plusses. :(

Cuchulainn said:

Bloody hell...'Artistically betrayed'? Don't suppose it matters a great deal as he did both subsequent SW prequels and IJATKOTCS (even as an acronym that's a mouthful!!)

Considering Williams' age I reckon he'll just stick exclusively with Spielberg for the rest of his career...

 

 been reading some more about this ever since the thread was created and found some more info from someone that I guess knows more about this. 

pretty strong words. no doubt about it.   bad enough for lucas to frustrate the cast but to piss off john williams?  about as close to an MVP an artist can get on star wars. 

from what I read, he also did not score anything for genosis because the scenes were still in flux, so the editors just added the scores based on existing music.   I thought that was just for the droid factory scene?

so the script for AOTC was not provided to actors until a week before principal photography and the editing was still premature to a point that a huge set piece couldn't have its own original score created.  lovely

very good.  perfect age to get into star wars.

twooffour said:

The moment in which Anakin turns from grief to wrath was brilliantly captured in the music, imo. Sent a shiver through my spine the first time I saw it, still does.

 im assuming you are referring to the tusken slaughter - yeah that was excellent. a lot of people don't like the iris out on anakins face but i thought it was cool (i also remember it differently - I could have sworn in the theatre the first time I saw it, the iris closed in right on his eyes for a second and the completely closed, but i guess its not like that)

the other piece I liked was in ROTS right after obi-wan says "im so sorry" to padme and we go to a collection of scenes of anakins executions on mustafar and then ends with him looking over the volcano.  It was the only time I felt the PT finally had something the reminded me of all the great moments in ESB.

twooffour said:

(The "arena" track that you can also hear on the Clones DVD menu, has been replaced by the AniPad love theme, and inserted into the Evil Jedi Temple march in ROTS instead;

 Oh god, you had to bring this up :(  IMO, its much worse than 'nooooooooooo'

Anakin declaring his allegiance was one thing, but doing a full 180 and taking an active role in killing the other jedi just a few minutes later was a major stretch.  The choice of music when we first see him with the clone troopers occupying the temple made it worse. 

In the trailer, the music from ROTJ (when emperor is electrocuting luke) was much more powerful and got my hopes up. Of course I knew it was just for the trailer, but was hoping for something similiar.  [sigh]