Stardust1138

Omni said:

Would like to point out that HelloGreedo’s community is very civil and nice, and that he himself has mostly turned around on his early, PT hating years, which should paint an accurate picture of how PT fans are treated now vs. how they were treated then. I do believe the Ring Theory is a major stretch, but with honest roots in Lucas trying to tie together the saga visually and obviously story-wise as well, to varying degrees of success. But Plinkett is a major no. In his TPM video he claims the opening shot of the original Star Wars is “so brilliant Lucas must have had nothing to do with it.” Stoklasa, not playing the character, in a regular video with “People vs. George Lucas” director claimed that “Lucas is, second only to Ringo Starr, the luckiest person in show-biz.” Amazes me how people still point to him for great critiques. Fucking idiot.

It’s this desperate attempt to minimize everything Lucas has ever done. Stardust and people like them to my understanding are simply over-compensating now, for the overwhelming hate Lucas received since 1997 but especially since 1999. That’s really Lucas’s story is all about, sadly. After the OT and the Indy trilogy Lucas became a legend. A man that has written and produced several incredible films, and directed three excellent films, American Graffiti and Star Wars both considered to be two of the best there’s ever been. Of course he was a legend.

And of course there was never a world where he’d live up to it. Then came the SEs, then came the PT, then came Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and the rest is history. People turned on him, demonized him, grown ass men claiming that Lucas “r***d their childhood”. Really disgusting stuff. Constant harassment, etc etc.

And now we have the Stardusts of the world, people that grew up loving all the man did and still love him, and will defend him to death, probably a lot more because of how minimized he’s been over the years. Sure there’s the oojason “time travelling revisionist” thread, which can be seen by some as a response to Lucas’ “efforts of burying history” over time, but when people come to this website and that thread stands tall, with no “praising George Lucas” or “a moment to thank George Lucas” thread next to it, it paints an obvious picture on how the community views him. Essentially the same thing Stoklasa is saying - a lucky hack that’s done nothing right. Of course that’s absurd. He wrote, produced and directed Star Wars and Graffiti. He wrote and produced TESB, ROTJ and the four Indy films. The man is talented, an amazing writer (even if not necessarily screenwriter) and a very competent director. He made three very different films in his middle age but that doesn’t change what he did when he was younger. I think failing to recognize that is what makes Stardust come here claiming he’s a man of singular vision and that he’s right when everyone is wrong.

Of course, Stardust’s position just keeps feeding on this vicious cycle which will probably never end. Again, we should probably all learn something from Lucas’ playbook - which unsusprisingly is the same as the Jedi playbook - and learn to let go a bit.

You pretty much nailed how I feel in a general sense. I’m really glad first off to hear HelloGreedo’s approach has evolved honestly as I remember watching his videos back in the day where he detailed the changes made to each movie. I merely found them interesting to see how they evolved and grew. I wasn’t watching him to be critical of George Lucas changing his story. I watched them as I liked seeing the development process from what we saw in 1977 to at that point 2011. I’ll always defend George. I owe him so much but he doesn’t owe me anything back. He made a collection of stories outside of just Star Wars that I love too. I love his creative vision and will always defend his and anyone’s artistic integrity over a corporation telling stories or fans telling you what is wrong with your story. I can’t be mad at him. There’s things I’d do differently but I don’t find it’s my place to go on message boards detailing everything I feel is wrong. I’m a generally speaking very positive person with rare instances where I can resort to cynicism. I’m merely with Star Wars and George Lucas sharing complete context to the partial information sometimes claimed to be passed off as absolute fact. I’m guilty of it too. Do I go a little far and do I take responsibility? I absolutely do. I know I’m not perfect and I know my prospective will offend people sometimes but my take on Star Wars is more aligned with following George’s lead versus a fan’s prospective. I love being a fan but sometimes I think as a fan we forget that we aren’t the ones who make these things. I’ll contradict myself sometimes as George does but that’s because I too don’t always have full context. I’m very invested in learning about George and his way of creating stories. I’ve watched nearly everything I can about him on YouTube that isn’t clearly biased. I’ve also watched and read multiple interviews with him. I’ve read books about him and his collaborators. I don’t see him as some cynical man who wanted to hurt anyone or that changed that much as he always had story as the first thing in his mind. He was merely trying to expand the palates to tell those stories with the Prequels. He’s spoken of this and even said he doesn’t like technology all that much. He just didn’t make films like some wanted as they grew up to have different tastes than the different tone and prospective given to his later films. This isn’t a bad thing. We grow and change as we get older. George changed but not in the ways most think. What’s not okay though is acting like he damaged your childhood. He did no such thing. He instead gave Star Wars to another generation and now for better or worse we have Disney doing the same thing. Star Wars has to grow and evolve. It may not be in the ways we always want it to be but we can try accepting it and letting go. We can always see another side to the story. I just tend to value George’s viewpoint more than a fan or anyone else as George is the absolute when it comes to his creations. No one knows Star Wars better than the man who created it.

I sincerely apologise to everyone I offended. I truly am sorry but I also feel the whiplash shouldn’t be squarely put on me as the only one responsible. We can all go a little far sometimes.

Darth Retcon said:

Stardust1138 said:

Darth Retcon said:

Stardust1138 said:

Darth Malgus said:

I agree with Stardust1138. There are many Prequel fans who behave toxic and offend all those who don’t think like them, but there are also many Original Trilogy fans who do the exact same thing. Idiots are everywhere, no matter what their opinion is. If a person is stupid no matter what his opinion is, he remains stupid regardless, because what makes a person stupid is not his opinions, but his behavior towards others. Explanations aren’t universal and there are things that can work for some people, but that cannot work for other people. For exemple, some people say that Revenge of the Sith doesn’t work as an introduction to the Original Trilogy, or that Rogue One doesn’t work as a prequel to A New Hope. Well, I have never felt this way and I have never managed to understand the point of view of those who support these ideas, but I have always respected their opinion, because the fact that those two films work for me doesn’t mean they can work for everyone. Thank God I became a Star Wars fan in 2018/2019, when the Prequel hate was already pretty much disappeared. If I had been a Star Wars fan between 2005 and 2012 I would have been treated like shit literally by everyone, since I love the Prequel Trilogy and I’m absolutely not willing to compromise on my personal tastes. I was lucky, because my personal tastes came to coincide with an historical period in which they weren’t considered stupid and attacked by everyone. But I don’t want to imagine what the Prequel fans had to go through between 2005 and 2012…

Exactly. It was a rough time until around 2016/2017. That’s when I feel the shift fully started. I also respect everyone’s opinion but it may not seem clear with how I tend to side more with George than fans.

ken-obi said:

“For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy.”

No, the whataboutery doesn’t wash, or hold true. You may also want to look at the history of this forum and why it was formed.
 

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Don’t put words in my mouth. This is something you have before, along with your insults. I didn’t pinpoint Prequels fans:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Quite clearly I said George & Prequel Zealots. Not everyday regular Prequel fans or those who enjoy most things Star Wars. I have bolded the parts above for you.

Have you seen The People versus George Lucas or the Red Letter Media “reviews”? They’re incredibly biased towards being against George Lucas, the Prequels, and anyone who likes them. They don’t hold equal discussion but merely what reinforces the majority.

It appears it is you are attempting some gaslighting.

If you have seen The People versus George Lucas you know people from this website contributed to it and featured on it, including the site founder and owner, and long time members. You may want to take a closer look at some of the threads on the documentary, and treat people here with more respect. Not condescension, whataboutery or attempts to play at portraying yourself as a victim, when you fuck up and get things wrong.

People have continued to direct you to The Secret History Of Star Wars, Pollock’s Skywwalking book, and the GL: Unreliable Narrator thread. Have you actually taken the time to read through them, or do you just ignore them and continue to expect people to watch the inane and off-topic links you post up on here?
 

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Digging oneself deeper by throwing YouTube videos at people, fascinating tactic.

I didn’t realise there were set rules of how to communicate a message and share information.

I know sometimes I can go a little far in explaining certain things but I’m merely relying what I know without any vendetta towards George. Some don’t like everything he did with Star Wars and that’s fine. However the need to vilify him and treat him like he doesn’t understand his story is defeating the purpose of knowing what Star Wars always meant. It’s personal for all of us but it’s even more personal to him as he created it to begin with.

Not being snarky and patronizing would be a good start on better communication with others on here.

George lies, deceives, retcons and is disingenuous in many of his claims over the years. These are the simply the facts, even if you don’t like that. Because this is one of the few forums that highlight his bullshit doesn’t mean there is a vendetta against him, or people are vilifying him, or can’t highlight his contradictory claims or attempts at re-writing history.

As others have said: facts and the truth matter. “Ignoring facts doesn’t mean they cease to exist”.

Stop acting like a Lucas zealot. Or troll. Read and acknowledge what this forum is about. Engage people in good faith, actually listen and take on board what they have to say. Or just leave.

You can act like I’m the one being zealot but you’re the one who felt the need to go through my posts from last year to message me pointing out where you think I am wrong about certain things. So maybe you should take a look at yourself before you accuse me of being the only zealot one here.

I simply pointed out your posting style was winding people up on here. It appears that is still the case. I also offered suggestions and advice for you to better engage with others here. It appears you didn’t take the advice and continued on regardless - of course,that’s up to you. Yet you still can’t being yourself to apologize when you are caught out with your incorrect claims (as I highlighted to you).

I’m fine with myself. I’m not the one defending myself, yet again, for acting like a troll, getting it completely wrong, and then attempting to play the victim, instead of simply apologizing.

You can believe what you want to believe but I’m not the only one here who can go a little far in explaining my feelings on certain things. I’m fully aware I’m not perfect and make mistakes but to act like I’m the only one who is doing these things is blatantly false.

So it’s trolling and out of line to have an opinion through what we are told by George and experienced first hand but it’s not when you go through someone’s posts one by one to point out where you feel they’re wrong or cite sources that may or may not have some bias?

Darth Retcon said:

Stardust1138 said:

Darth Malgus said:

I agree with Stardust1138. There are many Prequel fans who behave toxic and offend all those who don’t think like them, but there are also many Original Trilogy fans who do the exact same thing. Idiots are everywhere, no matter what their opinion is. If a person is stupid no matter what his opinion is, he remains stupid regardless, because what makes a person stupid is not his opinions, but his behavior towards others. Explanations aren’t universal and there are things that can work for some people, but that cannot work for other people. For exemple, some people say that Revenge of the Sith doesn’t work as an introduction to the Original Trilogy, or that Rogue One doesn’t work as a prequel to A New Hope. Well, I have never felt this way and I have never managed to understand the point of view of those who support these ideas, but I have always respected their opinion, because the fact that those two films work for me doesn’t mean they can work for everyone. Thank God I became a Star Wars fan in 2018/2019, when the Prequel hate was already pretty much disappeared. If I had been a Star Wars fan between 2005 and 2012 I would have been treated like shit literally by everyone, since I love the Prequel Trilogy and I’m absolutely not willing to compromise on my personal tastes. I was lucky, because my personal tastes came to coincide with an historical period in which they weren’t considered stupid and attacked by everyone. But I don’t want to imagine what the Prequel fans had to go through between 2005 and 2012…

Exactly. It was a rough time until around 2016/2017. That’s when I feel the shift fully started. I also respect everyone’s opinion but it may not seem clear with how I tend to side more with George than fans.

ken-obi said:

“For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy.”

No, the whataboutery doesn’t wash, or hold true. You may also want to look at the history of this forum and why it was formed.
 

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Don’t put words in my mouth. This is something you have before, along with your insults. I didn’t pinpoint Prequels fans:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Quite clearly I said George & Prequel Zealots. Not everyday regular Prequel fans or those who enjoy most things Star Wars. I have bolded the parts above for you.

Have you seen The People versus George Lucas or the Red Letter Media “reviews”? They’re incredibly biased towards being against George Lucas, the Prequels, and anyone who likes them. They don’t hold equal discussion but merely what reinforces the majority.

It appears it is you are attempting some gaslighting.

If you have seen The People versus George Lucas you know people from this website contributed to it and featured on it, including the site founder and owner, and long time members. You may want to take a closer look at some of the threads on the documentary, and treat people here with more respect. Not condescension, whataboutery or attempts to play at portraying yourself as a victim, when you fuck up and get things wrong.

People have continued to direct you to The Secret History Of Star Wars, Pollock’s Skywwalking book, and the GL: Unreliable Narrator thread. Have you actually taken the time to read through them, or do you just ignore them and continue to expect people to watch the inane and off-topic links you post up on here?
 

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Digging oneself deeper by throwing YouTube videos at people, fascinating tactic.

I didn’t realise there were set rules of how to communicate a message and share information.

I know sometimes I can go a little far in explaining certain things but I’m merely relying what I know without any vendetta towards George. Some don’t like everything he did with Star Wars and that’s fine. However the need to vilify him and treat him like he doesn’t understand his story is defeating the purpose of knowing what Star Wars always meant. It’s personal for all of us but it’s even more personal to him as he created it to begin with.

Not being snarky and patronizing would be a good start on better communication with others on here.

George lies, deceives, retcons and is disingenuous in many of his claims over the years. These are the simply the facts, even if you don’t like that. Because this is one of the few forums that highlight his bullshit doesn’t mean there is a vendetta against him, or people are vilifying him, or can’t highlight his contradictory claims or attempts at re-writing history.

As others have said: facts and the truth matter. “Ignoring facts doesn’t mean they cease to exist”.

Stop acting like a Lucas zealot. Or troll. Read and acknowledge what this forum is about. Engage people in good faith, actually listen and take on board what they have to say. Or just leave.

I did actually watch the documentary a few years ago. I barely care to remember watching it though as it merely reinforces false claims and a need to circle around a debate on who owns the films. It’s not the fans. I have no disrespect to anyone who took part in the making of it or don’t like the Prequels but the fact of the matter is that it’s a documentary reinforcing beliefs of a segment of disgruntled fans that don’t speak for the majority elsewhere within the fandom. The fact that even Mark Hamill condemns it should be a clue to what he and others involved in the making of the films think. Yet you say Gary Kurtz and David Prowse were in it. It’s not like they didn’t have any personal biases against George. Marcia Lucas even went on record in calling out Gary in Howard Kazanjian’s book. That’s not to say either one weren’t important to what Star Wars became as they were absolutely a major part in shaping it but to act like they know everything there is to know about Star Wars is false. People will cite them as knowing the absolute facts before George but that’s just not true. The fact is the stories grew and evolved. It may not have stayed exactly the same as it was in early drafts but that’s what storytelling is all about. It’s evolving a story and letting it take the natural progression you as the artist want to take it. George just had a different idea on certain things. Why is this a problem? He can contradict himself all he wants as the story isn’t set in stone until we sit down to experience it. He’s always evolving it though like a Renaissance painter. Do people have a problem with them fine tuning their work? George sees it exactly the same way. It doesn’t belong to me or you either.

You can act like I’m the one being zealot but you’re the one who felt the need to go through my posts from last year to message me pointing out where you think I am wrong about certain things. So maybe you should take a look at yourself before you accuse me of being the only zealous one here.

BedeHistory731 said:

Digging oneself deeper by throwing YouTube videos at people, fascinating tactic.

I didn’t realise there were set rules of how to communicate a message and share information.

I know sometimes I can go a little far in explaining certain things but I’m merely relying what I know without any vendetta towards George. Some don’t like everything he did with Star Wars and that’s fine. However the need to vilify him and treat him like he doesn’t understand his story is defeating the purpose of knowing what Star Wars always meant. It’s personal for all of us but it’s even more personal to him as he created it to begin with.

screams in the void said:

That’s just like , uh , you’re opinion . Dude , you are literally commenting on a forum which was created with the expressed purpose of preserving his original vision , as well as that of his numerous collaborators who helped bring that vision to life and who’s work is sadly swept under the rug in favor of his numerous revisions …like those commentaries you mentioned . Kasdan not withstanding ,as those were snippets culled from other interviews . I don’t need a video ,or you , to tell me "how to watch Star Wars " , I know how to watch Star Wars , I load the tape into my VCR ,The disc into my DVD player or cue up some of the wonderful preservations created here .

That’s what I mean. If we’re supposed to hold ourselves to the standards of the purpose of the original intentions of the forum than we should just as much respect and understand George Lucas as we do his collaborators. It feels like sometimes people like to believe that Star Wars was great in spite of him but that couldn’t be further from the facts. The title for the video can be a little off putting I admit but that’s not exactly what it’s doing entirely. It’s merely giving a more grounded viewpoint on relying information directly from George and the films themselves versus say Red Letter Media who make false claims that are taken as absolute facts because they reinforce criticisms people already had with the films before they watched their reviews. Rick Worley challenges the common agreed upon consensus from mostly Original Trilogy fans. If some don’t want to go down that rabbit hole that’s fine and their choice, but I actively prefer watching his well researched videos versus the false claims I see time and time again by your typical YouTube critic who agrees with everything some already feel or make false claims that won’t be questioned because of it. Isn’t it just as important to challenge ourselves instead of finding people that always agree with everything we already feel? I feel it’s how we grow and learn. I already know what my opinion is. I don’t need the validation but it certainly is good to see the truth come out.

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Of course everyone is grateful to George for Star Wars, his creation and his dedication, but Star Wars thankfully moved on far beyond George and his retconned and re-invented visions. There is so much more to try, to experience, and enjoy.

The irony of it is Original Trilogy fans can be the exact same way. So it’s not just a Prequels fans thing to do but something I’ve seen Original fans do as well.

Source: My bum

No, actually, I really want to call this out here. You just kind of… assert this and hope it’s taken as fact. Can you give any examples of OT fans behaving the exact same way? Just so the goalposts stay where they belong, specifically I’m looking for:

1. Claiming the only reason people dislike the OT is because they didn’t understand it
2. Gatekeeping, and adding a requirement of having done your summer reading watching stuff that isn’t the OT in order for your opinion on the OT to matter
3. Rarely talk about what actually happens in the OT
4. Rarely talk about what they actually enjoyed about the OT

All of these are par for the course when talking to a dyed-in-the-wool prequel zealot.

Isn’t it just as narrow focused to not try understanding a piece of art and claiming it’s boring without understanding all of the reasons for what it is actually telling us?

If this is you providing an example of OT fans being like that, then one, you don’t seem to understand what ken-obi was talking about, which seems to be the case when you say

Stardust1138 said:

So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

But more importantly, two, dude, seriously, the reason people disagree with you over these movies is actually not because they just don’t understand them. And I don’t want to hear about how much you understand and respect how movies are subjective or whatever just for you to hyperfixate on the totally not phantom menace of people who just don’t want to understand the super subtle prequels.

Stardust1138 said:

I’m done though for sure as it feels like I’m getting gaslighted for not using the exact words you want me to use

What a fascinating conversation this was.

> I think it’s silly how a lot of prequel fans act in bad faith in these conversations
> Prequel fans aren’t the only ones who are mean bullies, OT fans are like that too
> That’s not at all what I was talking about
> Well, I just have a different interpretation of what you said.
> Your interpretation was wrong. You’re saying I said things which I never did.
> Well, someone else also thought what I thought too.
> This does not change that you thought I meant one thing, and I actually meant something else
> I feel gaslighted and attacked

I don’t want to get personal, but I feel like I have to. You seem to have a chronic inability to admit when you’ve made a mistake and you seem to prefer just continually pulling up excuse after excuse instead of just saying “Oops, I am human and fallible and said something that was wrong.” You very clearly misunderstood what ken-obi was saying, literally why not just admit it?

Examples?

https://youtu.be/wzDIClx-_pY

https://youtu.be/Aoc3roT81nU

https://youtu.be/bFu2IFdjCaw

https://youtu.be/YhhACgJJkc4

https://youtu.be/BKu8Ri6MAHU

https://youtu.be/qfNiSkd3HfI

https://youtu.be/56FsSmUi0Yk

https://youtu.be/vqnjzVX8EKA

Do I need to go on?

I’m merely relying all of the information George Lucas has said himself or is within the films themselves. If people want to believe otherwise that’s their choice. I’m no expert either as I still have a lot to learn.

I do absolutely admit I was wrong in some ways but I’m not completely in the wrong either.

He actually talks about it exactly as I describe in the commentary of The Phantom Menace and the commentaries of his films in general. The HelloGreedo and Red Letter Media videos are filled with misinformation.

As a counterargument I’ll share again Rick Worley’s video essay. It has excerpts of George’s audio commentaries where he goes through it. It also includes an excerpt from Lawerence Kasdan.

https://youtu.be/vqnjzVX8EKA

It pains me how there’s so many false claims about George by many who try to hold him up to the highest standards by keeping him to his “original” vision.

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of a the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

The thing is George never said the Force was exclusive to bloodlines. I think what he says about is just the opposite from how both J.J. and Rian took it to mean.

He said:

"A lot of people get confused about the Force. They see it as some special thing that you can find and pick up and put it on your head and suddenly you have the Force. Whereas it’s always been designed so that every [living] being has the Force.

The amount of Force, which is like talent or intelligence, is different in every person. Some of it is inherited, but it’s no more than a talent. It’s not something you can acquire – it’s something you can learn to use. I have the power to lift that cup off the table using the Force, but I can’t do it unless I have been trained to do it."

And with the Whills. They tie into the idea of free will and destiny:

“The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There’s something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midi-Chlorians, and there are about 10.000 times more Midi-Chlorians than there are human cells. The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midi-Chlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midi-Chlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midi-Chlorians and the Midi-Chlorians effectively work for the Whills. It is estimated that we have 100 trillion microbes in our body and we are made up of about 90% bacteria and 10% human cells. So who is in service to whom?”

The reason we follow the Skywalker family isn’t because they’re more important than others who can also use the Force but because the saga was about Anakin and his family. Anakin and his family just had a greater destiny akin to God in a general sense. Some have greater destinies than others and it’s also your choice on if we want to act on it or ignore the call to something greater. Fate has a way a stopping in where it’s needed.

The argument I’d have here is that while George’s sentiment is nice as it’s a way of showing the inclusion of Midichlorians doesn’t mess with the Force and that it’s still ultimately about how everyone has the Force and the potential to use it? That doesn’t really matter here. While your reading is still absolutely valid, the prequels as they change the context of the OT and arguably what one sees maybe from the old EU makes this into a matter where it really feels like being strong in the Force requires you to be a part of a bloodline. Looking back at the OT, part of the appeal to me of the Force is that while in this moment we see Luke is the hero and that he’s learning the ways of the Force? He’s also an everyman and we hear it flows through every living being so you get the idea that you don’t have to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi or whoever to be a hero, the Force flows through everyone therefore everyone has the potential, some might have a bigger headstart on it than others but anyone can learn to use it.

The PT then made Anakin the Chosen One, a child born from a virgin birth that apparently was caused by manipulating Midichlorians and because of the framing of the movies, it’s more based on being born into that bloodline and the Skywalkers suddenly become the only family that really matters to this massive galaxy for almost every single issue revolves around them. Sure one can say it doesn’t matter and that it’s just this is the family the movies follow but the movies still have that kind of framing and later stories keep up with this. For being a galaxy from a long time ago, this universe feels tiny and the Force becomes more like inherited superpowers. Now of course that’s just how I personally read it from spending time with the universe and if you like that aspect then more power to you. But I’ve just got to say that I don’t really care what George says in this instance. Word of God can only go so far and considering how the movies portray it? It’s why I’m more grateful for movies like TLJ bucking that trend and bringing things to being more like the OT while still attempting to show respect to the PT because with how the movies and other portions of the saga framed things? It really felt like it was more about the bloodlines and not about someone in a sea of nobodies rising up and choosing to become someone.

I appreciate your read on things but I see the opposite. I actually like The Last Jedi in an alternate universe sort of way for the most part. However I think one thing it gets wrong is making Rey a “Nobody”. We’ve seen Nobodies use the Force and be Jedi before. The entire Jedi Order and arguably younglings are a bunch of nobodies. The stories just tended to keep the narrative focus on Anakin and his family. This isn’t shrinking the universe but instead I find making it so we are following one generation at a time of the same family and how the consequences of what is just as external to each era make up the reality of the era afterwards until the cycle closes. Much like how real life works. Luke still begins his journey through humble origins and goes through the motions of learning of his greater destiny as he did before the Prequels reframed it in certain ways. The only difference is we know Darth Vader already is his father when we get to his journey but arguably the story of the Originals was recontextualised to make it just as much his story as it is Luke’s and later Leia and her children. I still believe in the notion of anyone can be a Jedi but it’s a hard life and not a simple magic trick as The Force Awakens likes to present it as being. Being able to use the Force is one thing but picking up on Jedi Mind Tricks or Force Pull without any training feels like it’s compromising the principles of how being a Jedi is different from being a regular hero like Luke was in the Rebel Alliance or when Anakin won the podrace. Both scenarios are heroism but a Jedi is a different kind of hero.

Fair points also, I’d even agree that yeah being a Jedi is a hard life but where I differ is that it’s based on more the sacrifices you make and what you end up doing. Because as a Jedi, you’re in tune to the Force and thus you’re in tune to a mystical energy that connects all living beings. Some abilities allow you to even do things like see the history of an item which means you might see murder, destruction and far more horrible things. It’s a lot of responsibility to carry as a person for you have this great power that takes a lot of wisdom to use. I feel when you do things like say make Force Pull a difficult ability or make Jedi Mind Tricks the result of training and frame them as these hard abilities to use (Which I argue they’re not, Rey lives in a timeline where people know the Jedi and we’ve already seen through the Prequel Trilogy that one of the common abilities regular people know about at least is the Jedi Mind Trick.) then honestly, I feel the point of the Force has been missed. I think back to what we learned in ESB where Yoda’s whole spiel to Luke is about how learning to use the Force is not as much about standard training, it’s about believing in this mystical energy and surrendering yourself to it. Hence “Do or do not, there is no try.” because it’s either you accept this or you doubt yourself and things become harder and I feel TFA returned it to being that whereas so many Star Wars entries after the prequels kept pushing the idea that it is this hard thing to learn, that these simple abilities are actually master level powers when they’re not. It’s all about how efficiently you use them and how much you put into it.

That’s also what makes Rey being a nobody in TLJ notable. Because yes we’ve seen nobodies with the younglings and such but most of the truly important characters to Star Wars are connected in some capacity and this extends even to the EU where most of the successful main heroes are connected to characters we know already. Rey was poised to be the first main hero that wasn’t connected to anyone aside from maybe being Luke’s student on Ahch-To and in a way it seemed like that was gonna make the Sequel Trilogy be about the theme of legacy and how the Skywalkers and Jedi continued to inspire over the years in the same way that Star Wars had which still can be done of course with Rey being someone connected to the past but it takes away a great deal of that weight I feel and that it causes Star Wars to feel smaller as a result.

You again make some valid points but I think things such as where you say “Some abilities allow you to even do things like see the history of an item which means you might see murder, destruction and far more horrible things. It’s a lot of responsibility to carry as a person for you have this great power that takes a lot of wisdom to use.” was never really the case entirely in George’s canon. He never connected the Force to an object except for Holocrons. However they just held wisdom like information about locations of Force Sensitive children and secrets of the Jedi Order. Otherwise connecting things such as a lightsaber is a Disney canon invention or something from the Expanded Universe. Keep in mind though Rey also believes Luke to be a myth and the Jedi not to be real until Han tells her otherwise. During the Prequel era it’s a different context as we’re in a period where the Jedi have served as the guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years. It was through careful manipulation that Palpatine deceived everyone. By the time of The Force Awakens way of seeing the story it doesn’t make much sense for many people to know of the Jedi and what they actually did. We don’t get the full context surrounding Luke or his fallen Jedi Temple to make sense of it.

I’d say believing in yourself is part of it but that’s what makes it hard. It’s like when Luke tries to pull the lightsaber out of the snow on Hoth or trying to focus his concentration on the remote aboard the Falcon or when he’s fighting his father the first time or even when he’s attempting to lift the X-Wing out of the swamps of Dagobah. There’s a theme of difficulties. It’s all very difficult for him initially and it’s not until he learns to quiet his mind that he’s able to fully connect with the Force and feel it’s presence versus say Han who didn’t believe in it.

With the Force there’s some natural ability to it as Anakin was able to pass his Force test with the Jedi Council with flying colours but it’s difficult at the same time to do certain powers.

It’s not so much I think a Prequels issue but an issue that’s in A New Hope. We just don’t know the answer as to you.

I think it’s better served having it in a spinoff instead of the Skywalker family saga. There’s nothing inherently bad about following a new character who has no direct connection to what we know but I don’t believe personally it works in a story that we’re meant to be following a family through different eras that are interconnected through external and internal sequences. The Republic is the Empire and the aftermath of both will naturally have an affect on Luke and Leia. It makes no sense to me personally to follow a character unrelated to them in the final trilogy. I think it’s fine in another trilogy not beholden to the rules and contexts of what came before though. I think you still get the legacy with following a Solowalker Daughter and Solowalker Son but it’s more direct to concluding things established with the Mortis Arc and Anakin being the Chosen One. The story in essence begins with a Mother and Son and ends with a Mother and Daughter. It seems George was recontextualising the story to be a family affair versus just Anakin as the only literal Chosen One. It’s also as much Padme’s story. She gives away democracy in The Phantom Menace and Leia restores and becomes Supreme Chancellor in Episode IX as her daughter inherits the Jedi Order from Luke before he passes on. The feminine is what ulimately restores the Balance.

Once again very fair points. A lot of it I’d even say I could concede to though ultimately I disagree. That being said it gives me a lot to think about in regards to the whole universe and this discussion was at least fascinating and very polite.

The same could be said for your points. It’s interesting to hear a different prospective on what something means across generations of fans. I appreciate how fascinating and very polite our discussion was as well. I added a bit more as you were replying if you wanted to go back and read it. It’s always good to see another side to the story we all know and love.

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of a the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

The thing is George never said the Force was exclusive to bloodlines. I think what he says about is just the opposite from how both J.J. and Rian took it to mean.

He said:

"A lot of people get confused about the Force. They see it as some special thing that you can find and pick up and put it on your head and suddenly you have the Force. Whereas it’s always been designed so that every [living] being has the Force.

The amount of Force, which is like talent or intelligence, is different in every person. Some of it is inherited, but it’s no more than a talent. It’s not something you can acquire – it’s something you can learn to use. I have the power to lift that cup off the table using the Force, but I can’t do it unless I have been trained to do it."

And with the Whills. They tie into the idea of free will and destiny:

“The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There’s something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midi-Chlorians, and there are about 10.000 times more Midi-Chlorians than there are human cells. The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midi-Chlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midi-Chlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midi-Chlorians and the Midi-Chlorians effectively work for the Whills. It is estimated that we have 100 trillion microbes in our body and we are made up of about 90% bacteria and 10% human cells. So who is in service to whom?”

The reason we follow the Skywalker family isn’t because they’re more important than others who can also use the Force but because the saga was about Anakin and his family. Anakin and his family just had a greater destiny akin to God in a general sense. Some have greater destinies than others and it’s also your choice on if we want to act on it or ignore the call to something greater. Fate has a way a stopping in where it’s needed.

The argument I’d have here is that while George’s sentiment is nice as it’s a way of showing the inclusion of Midichlorians doesn’t mess with the Force and that it’s still ultimately about how everyone has the Force and the potential to use it? That doesn’t really matter here. While your reading is still absolutely valid, the prequels as they change the context of the OT and arguably what one sees maybe from the old EU makes this into a matter where it really feels like being strong in the Force requires you to be a part of a bloodline. Looking back at the OT, part of the appeal to me of the Force is that while in this moment we see Luke is the hero and that he’s learning the ways of the Force? He’s also an everyman and we hear it flows through every living being so you get the idea that you don’t have to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi or whoever to be a hero, the Force flows through everyone therefore everyone has the potential, some might have a bigger headstart on it than others but anyone can learn to use it.

The PT then made Anakin the Chosen One, a child born from a virgin birth that apparently was caused by manipulating Midichlorians and because of the framing of the movies, it’s more based on being born into that bloodline and the Skywalkers suddenly become the only family that really matters to this massive galaxy for almost every single issue revolves around them. Sure one can say it doesn’t matter and that it’s just this is the family the movies follow but the movies still have that kind of framing and later stories keep up with this. For being a galaxy from a long time ago, this universe feels tiny and the Force becomes more like inherited superpowers. Now of course that’s just how I personally read it from spending time with the universe and if you like that aspect then more power to you. But I’ve just got to say that I don’t really care what George says in this instance. Word of God can only go so far and considering how the movies portray it? It’s why I’m more grateful for movies like TLJ bucking that trend and bringing things to being more like the OT while still attempting to show respect to the PT because with how the movies and other portions of the saga framed things? It really felt like it was more about the bloodlines and not about someone in a sea of nobodies rising up and choosing to become someone.

I appreciate your read on things but I see the opposite. I actually like The Last Jedi in an alternate universe sort of way for the most part. However I think one thing it gets wrong is making Rey a “Nobody”. We’ve seen Nobodies use the Force and be Jedi before. The entire Jedi Order and arguably younglings are a bunch of nobodies. The stories just tended to keep the narrative focus on Anakin and his family. This isn’t shrinking the universe but instead I find making it so we are following one generation at a time of the same family and how the consequences of what is just as external to each era make up the reality of the era afterwards until the cycle closes. Much like how real life works. Luke still begins his journey through humble origins and goes through the motions of learning of his greater destiny as he did before the Prequels reframed it in certain ways. The only difference is we know Darth Vader already is his father when we get to his journey but arguably the story of the Originals was recontextualised to make it just as much his story as it is Luke’s and later Leia and her children. I still believe in the notion of anyone can be a Jedi but it’s a hard life and not a simple magic trick as The Force Awakens likes to present it as being. Being able to use the Force is one thing but picking up on Jedi Mind Tricks or Force Pull without any training feels like it’s compromising the principles of how being a Jedi is different from being a regular hero like Luke was in the Rebel Alliance or when Anakin won the podrace. Both scenarios are heroism but a Jedi is a different kind of hero.

Fair points also, I’d even agree that yeah being a Jedi is a hard life but where I differ is that it’s based on more the sacrifices you make and what you end up doing. Because as a Jedi, you’re in tune to the Force and thus you’re in tune to a mystical energy that connects all living beings. Some abilities allow you to even do things like see the history of an item which means you might see murder, destruction and far more horrible things. It’s a lot of responsibility to carry as a person for you have this great power that takes a lot of wisdom to use. I feel when you do things like say make Force Pull a difficult ability or make Jedi Mind Tricks the result of training and frame them as these hard abilities to use (Which I argue they’re not, Rey lives in a timeline where people know the Jedi and we’ve already seen through the Prequel Trilogy that one of the common abilities regular people know about at least is the Jedi Mind Trick.) then honestly, I feel the point of the Force has been missed. I think back to what we learned in ESB where Yoda’s whole spiel to Luke is about how learning to use the Force is not as much about standard training, it’s about believing in this mystical energy and surrendering yourself to it. Hence “Do or do not, there is no try.” because it’s either you accept this or you doubt yourself and things become harder and I feel TFA returned it to being that whereas so many Star Wars entries after the prequels kept pushing the idea that it is this hard thing to learn, that these simple abilities are actually master level powers when they’re not. It’s all about how efficiently you use them and how much you put into it.

That’s also what makes Rey being a nobody in TLJ notable. Because yes we’ve seen nobodies with the younglings and such but most of the truly important characters to Star Wars are connected in some capacity and this extends even to the EU where most of the successful main heroes are connected to characters we know already. Rey was poised to be the first main hero that wasn’t connected to anyone aside from maybe being Luke’s student on Ahch-To and in a way it seemed like that was gonna make the Sequel Trilogy be about the theme of legacy and how the Skywalkers and Jedi continued to inspire over the years in the same way that Star Wars had which still can be done of course with Rey being someone connected to the past but it takes away a great deal of that weight I feel and that it causes Star Wars to feel smaller as a result.

You again make some valid points but I think things such as where you say “Some abilities allow you to even do things like see the history of an item which means you might see murder, destruction and far more horrible things. It’s a lot of responsibility to carry as a person for you have this great power that takes a lot of wisdom to use.” was never really the case entirely in George’s canon. He never connected the Force to an object except for Holocrons. However they just held wisdom like information about locations of Force Sensitive children and secrets of the Jedi Order. Otherwise connecting things such as a lightsaber is a Disney canon invention or something from the Expanded Universe. Keep in mind though Rey also believes Luke to be a myth and the Jedi not to be real until Han tells her otherwise. During the Prequel era it’s a different context as we’re in a period where the Jedi have served as the guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years. It was through careful manipulation that Palpatine deceived everyone. By the time of The Force Awakens way of seeing the story it doesn’t make much sense for many people to know of the Jedi and what they actually did. We don’t get the full context surrounding Luke or his fallen Jedi Temple to make sense of it and how they see the Jedi. This contrasts George who would’ve shown 50 to 100 survivors of Order 66 after Return of the Jedi. Luke was never a Jedi to the Rebel Alliance in a general sense. He was but he was more so a regular hero for them. The next step is making sense of his role with the Jedi within the New Republic.

I’d say believing in yourself is part of it but that’s what makes it hard. It’s like when Luke tries to pull the lightsaber out of the snow on Hoth or trying to focus his concentration on the remote aboard the Falcon or when he’s fighting his father the first time or even when he’s attempting to lift the X-Wing out of the swamps of Dagobah. There’s a theme of difficulties. It’s all very difficult for him initially and it’s not until he learns to quiet his mind that he’s able to fully connect with the Force and feel it’s presence versus say Han who didn’t believe in it.

With the Force there’s some natural ability to it as Anakin was able to pass his Force test with the Jedi Council with flying colours but it’s difficult at the same time to do certain powers.

It’s not so much I think a Prequels issue but an issue that’s in A New Hope. We just don’t know the answer as to why.

I think it’s better served having it in a spinoff instead of the Skywalker family saga. There’s nothing inherently bad about following a new character who has no direct connection to what we know but I don’t believe personally it works in a story that we’re meant to be following a family through different eras that are interconnected through external and internal circumstances. The Republic is the Empire and the aftermath of both will naturally have an affect on Luke and Leia. It makes no sense to me personally to follow a character unrelated to them in the final trilogy. I think it’s fine in another trilogy not beholden to the rules and contexts of what came before though. I think you still get the legacy with following a Solowalker Daughter and Solowalker Son but it’s more direct to concluding things established with the Mortis Arc and Anakin being the Chosen One. The story in essence begins with a Mother and Son and ends with a Mother and Daughter. It seems George was recontextualising the story to be a family affair versus just Anakin as the only literal Chosen One. It’s also as much Padme’s story. She gives away democracy in The Phantom Menace and Leia restores and becomes Supreme Chancellor in Episode IX as her daughter inherits the Jedi Order from Luke before he passes on. The feminine is what ulimately restores the Balance.

Omni said:

Imagine liking and referencing a video featuring gags of a crazy man who slaves and preys on young girls. Disgusting.

There’s also that side of it. Disgusting indeed. That’s why I appreciate Rick Worley’s videos. He always presents the facts and let’s the viewer decide what they wish to believe. I know and understand why you wouldn’t want to view his videos with his take on Woody Allen but I’d actually recommend giving him a chance. He really did his research on the Woody Allen video as he does with all of videos. I still think Woody is weird but his essay opened my eyes to a more factual evidence account versus what the mass media consensus says.

Emre1601 said:

For all the modern hate thrown at the Plinkett PT reviews, they did raise some solid issues and points about the shortcomings of the PT onscreen.

If the Plinkett reviews actually presented facts instead of opinions or reinforcing false claims I’d probably be able to take them seriously but they don’t. They merely reinforce the consensus of what their target audience believes to be true about the Prequels. Take anything you want from their reviews but it’s likely to be false claims or reinforcing what is already agreed upon by the person watching the reviews thinks are the “problems” with the films. Same with Chris Stuckmann and countless other “critics”.

The majority isn’t always right.

I consider the purpose of film criticism to be one able to challenge my thoughts and make me look at things in a different way. I’ll either agree and change my initial thoughts or I’ll stay the same with greater understanding why I feel as I do. I also see the artist above what critics and fans alike think.

AspiringCreator said:

Stardust1138 said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of a the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

The thing is George never said the Force was exclusive to bloodlines. I think what he says about is just the opposite from how both J.J. and Rian took it to mean.

He said:

"A lot of people get confused about the Force. They see it as some special thing that you can find and pick up and put it on your head and suddenly you have the Force. Whereas it’s always been designed so that every [living] being has the Force.

The amount of Force, which is like talent or intelligence, is different in every person. Some of it is inherited, but it’s no more than a talent. It’s not something you can acquire – it’s something you can learn to use. I have the power to lift that cup off the table using the Force, but I can’t do it unless I have been trained to do it."

And with the Whills. They tie into the idea of free will and destiny:

“The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There’s something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midi-Chlorians, and there are about 10.000 times more Midi-Chlorians than there are human cells. The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midi-Chlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midi-Chlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midi-Chlorians and the Midi-Chlorians effectively work for the Whills. It is estimated that we have 100 trillion microbes in our body and we are made up of about 90% bacteria and 10% human cells. So who is in service to whom?”

The reason we follow the Skywalker family isn’t because they’re more important than others who can also use the Force but because the saga was about Anakin and his family. Anakin and his family just had a greater destiny akin to God in a general sense. Some have greater destinies than others and it’s also your choice on if we want to act on it or ignore the call to something greater. Fate has a way a stopping in where it’s needed.

The argument I’d have here is that while George’s sentiment is nice as it’s a way of showing the inclusion of Midichlorians doesn’t mess with the Force and that it’s still ultimately about how everyone has the Force and the potential to use it? That doesn’t really matter here. While your reading is still absolutely valid, the prequels as they change the context of the OT and arguably what one sees maybe from the old EU makes this into a matter where it really feels like being strong in the Force requires you to be a part of a bloodline. Looking back at the OT, part of the appeal to me of the Force is that while in this moment we see Luke is the hero and that he’s learning the ways of the Force? He’s also an everyman and we hear it flows through every living being so you get the idea that you don’t have to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi or whoever to be a hero, the Force flows through everyone therefore everyone has the potential, some might have a bigger headstart on it than others but anyone can learn to use it.

The PT then made Anakin the Chosen One, a child born from a virgin birth that apparently was caused by manipulating Midichlorians and because of the framing of the movies, it’s more based on being born into that bloodline and the Skywalkers suddenly become the only family that really matters to this massive galaxy for almost every single issue revolves around them. Sure one can say it doesn’t matter and that it’s just this is the family the movies follow but the movies still have that kind of framing and later stories keep up with this. For being a galaxy from a long time ago, this universe feels tiny and the Force becomes more like inherited superpowers. Now of course that’s just how I personally read it from spending time with the universe and if you like that aspect then more power to you. But I’ve just got to say that I don’t really care what George says in this instance. Word of God can only go so far and considering how the movies portray it? It’s why I’m more grateful for movies like TLJ bucking that trend and bringing things to being more like the OT while still attempting to show respect to the PT because with how the movies and other portions of the saga framed things? It really felt like it was more about the bloodlines and not about someone in a sea of nobodies rising up and choosing to become someone.

I appreciate your read on things but I see the opposite. I actually like The Last Jedi in an alternate universe sort of way for the most part. However I think one thing it gets wrong is making Rey a “Nobody”. We’ve seen Nobodies use the Force and be Jedi before. The entire Jedi Order and arguably younglings are a bunch of nobodies. The stories just tended to keep the narrative focus on Anakin and his family. This isn’t shrinking the universe but instead I find making it so we are following one generation at a time of the same family and how the consequences of what is just as external to each era make up the reality of the era afterwards until the cycle closes. Much like how real life works. Luke still begins his journey through humble origins and goes through the motions of learning of his greater destiny as he did before the Prequels reframed it in certain ways. The only difference is we know Darth Vader already is his father when we get to his journey but arguably the story of the Originals was recontextualised to make it just as much his story as it is Luke’s and later Leia and her children. I still believe in the notion of anyone can be a Jedi but it’s a hard life and not a simple magic trick as The Force Awakens likes to present it as being. Being able to use the Force is one thing but picking up on Jedi Mind Tricks or Force Pull without any training feels like it’s compromising the principles of how being a Jedi is different from being a regular hero like Luke was in the Rebel Alliance or when Anakin won the podrace. Both scenarios are heroism but a Jedi is a different kind of hero.

StarkillerAG said:

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly but unfortunately Star Wars is becoming the very “soulless boardroom committee” filmmaking we fear. It started with the soft reboot and has only got progressively worse from a critical standpoint. George had a vision. It’s fine if you don’t like it but he had a story he wanted to tell. It just might not be the story you would’ve told. Marvel films are the exact opposite. The directors are hired with almost all of the work already done for them. It’s low risk, high reward.

I’d personally disagree with that, too. Even though Lucas is gone, the new creators still have very clear visions and distinctive styles, much more unique than anything seen in the MCU.

In contrast to how the MCU is criticized for being generic and same-y, most criticisms of Disney Star Wars tend to be criticisms of directors’ individual styles: Abrams was criticized for his flashy style-over-substance approach and love of mysteries, Johnson was criticized for his bait-and-switch plot structure and cartoonish comedy, and Rodriguez was criticized for his janky looking B-movie aesthetic. Meanwhile, every Marvel movie and show has the exact same criticisms leveled against it: The characters are too snarky, the villain is too generic, the color grading is too bland, the final battle is too focused on over-the-top CGI, etc.

By far the most Marvel-ish thing to come out of Star Wars so far is Solo, although that’s mainly because the director was replaced halfway through production. But the generic feel of that movie has been an anomaly so far, and I sincerely hope it remains that way.

I do agree actually in some ways that Star Wars isn’t there quite yet but it’s getting there I’m afraid as Bob Iger said before the release of The Rise of Skywalker that they have hope of appealing to a mass audience afterwards. Another unnamed suit in the same piece also felt J.J. was giving fans what they’d want to see with it. I can see the seeds of this influence already being sown further by having Mando and Baby Yoda reunite in The Book of Boba Fett without allowing them some time apart. It was also the group decision including Bob Iger and Alan Horn who wanted to go with the retro movie that is The Force Awakens. It was also Bob Iger who had to write off on them killing Han and Alan Horn only agreed to let the heroes die in Rogue One because he saw they weren’t in A New Hope. It was an agreed upon consensus in both cases but not without being filtered first through the suits. I think the reason Rogue One though is the exception is they had a vision and idea of what they wanted to tell before presenting things to the suits. It was John Knoll’s idea for a long time after all. He was toying with it since the development of Star Wars: Underworld. The Last Jedi was also well loved by Lucasfilm and Disney because it was finished on budget and ahead of schedule in September of 2017. It had the smoothest production. The current stories in general do have a little more to say than Marvel but they’re arguably getting worse with certain content because they have no clear direction in who they’re trying to tell the stories for. They throw in some nostalgia to get fans on board because it seems they know a newbie is more likely to just watch anything. This is a very similar approach to the Marvel formula but not an exact replica. I hate saying it. I truly do. I’m just afraid the days of epic narrative Star Wars stories are long gone that don’t rely on some sort of nostalgia. It could change one day but we’re in for a long journey until we get there. I don’t know how recognisable Star Wars will be at that point. There might be exceptions to the current stories but I’m not very hopeful that it will be often for the foreseeable future.

George on the other hand had a story he wanted to tell. It might not always be perfect or smooth but he at least had a generally speaking clear idea of what fit in the stories he wanted to tell and what didn’t. Good or bad he worked off of intuition instead of what would please an audience. He did things his way for better or worse.

BedeHistory731 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Anyways!

I think he does a fine job in the parodies. The snippet we’ve seen of him in Star Wars Detours is really funny.

Indeed. I was around when Chad Vader was releasing new episodes, so I like seeing him do Vader in comedy. It’s just that he kind of can’t handle serious Vader as well as Scott Lawrence. Much like how Seth MacFarlane could never do a serious Palpatine performance, no matter how funny he was on Robot Chicken.

I should really watch the Chad Vader episodes. I only vaguely remember watching snippets of them years ago before I fully understood what satire actually meant. The Robot Chicken skits are really funny sometimes. I also enjoyed Family Guy Star Wars from what I remember. Have you seen it? It’s fun to consider George at one point had his DVR filled with mostly just Family Guy. Haha

Darth Malgus said:

Although in my initial post I stated that I agree with you, actually my speech was a general speech, it wasn’t addressed specifically to Ken-Obi. My speech was addressed in general to all those who accuse only the Prequel fans of being toxic. I perfectly understood what Ken-Obi said in his original post, and my post wasn’t addressed specifically to him, but was a general speech. Anyway, I think both of you should calm down and make peace. There’s been a misunderstanding between the two of you, but there’s no point in turning it into a war. It’s pointless. Let’s all calm down.

Oh, that’s what I meant too. I meant in a general speech sort of way you understood what I was trying to say. I totally agree though. There’s no need to let it continuing to drag on. There was a misunderstanding. We can’t understand things exactly as they’re said sometimes. Generally speaking I think putting fans in different camps and groups is a bad thing as it creates a lot of divide. Like people on SaltierThanCrait aren’t nearly as toxic as some want to believe because of how they’re talked about in general terms. There’s some but the majority on the server have valid reasons for not liking the Sequels. We all love Star Wars and I think that’s what we should focus on instead of tearing each other or creators alike down. We just have a different view. Address the story and not the person or generalise them into groups.

BedeHistory731 said:

Speaking of another unpopular voice actor opinion, Matt Sloan’s Vader voice does not work at all for serious portrayals of the character. His Vader started as a comedic impression (for the webseries Chad Vader) and only really works in comedy roles (e.g., Lego games, Lego animated features, spoof media, etc.). During Force Unleashed, I half expect Vader to be talking about his duties as the day shift manager of Empire Market.

Anyways!

I think he does a fine job in the parodies. The snippet we’ve seen of him in Star Wars Detours is really funny. I have no definitive opinion otherwise. I can’t remember his voice distracting me from enjoying The Force Unleashed.

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked the aspect of the force being more democratic and mysterious and its choosing a neophyte no one to restore the balance. I liked that Last Jedi basically made the whole mutant inherited bloodline thing, irrelevant. Only for Rise to make Rey a Palpatine and undo the idea of Star Wars going back to the style of a the original where Luke was a no one, who had the courage to leave Tatooine and confront the Empire. Originally Luke was a brave kid who went on an adventure he wasn’t the son of a super-villain/mutant with the most mitochondrial DNA or midichlorians whatsits in existence to some prophecy. Its undermines the force and free will. Its junk.

The thing is George never said the Force was exclusive to bloodlines. I think what he says about is just the opposite from how both J.J. and Rian took it to mean.

He said:

"A lot of people get confused about the Force. They see it as some special thing that you can find and pick up and put it on your head and suddenly you have the Force. Whereas it’s always been designed so that every [living] being has the Force.

The amount of Force, which is like talent or intelligence, is different in every person. Some of it is inherited, but it’s no more than a talent. It’s not something you can acquire – it’s something you can learn to use. I have the power to lift that cup off the table using the Force, but I can’t do it unless I have been trained to do it."

And with the Whills. They tie into the idea of free will and destiny:

“The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There’s something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midi-Chlorians, and there are about 10.000 times more Midi-Chlorians than there are human cells. The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midi-Chlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midi-Chlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midi-Chlorians and the Midi-Chlorians effectively work for the Whills. It is estimated that we have 100 trillion microbes in our body and we are made up of about 90% bacteria and 10% human cells. So who is in service to whom?”

The reason we follow the Skywalker family isn’t because they’re more important than others who can also use the Force but because the saga was about Anakin and his family. Anakin and his family just had a greater destiny akin to God in a general sense. Some have greater destinies than others and it’s also your choice on if we want to act on it or ignore the call to something greater. Fate has a way a stopping in where it’s needed.

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

No. You clearly said I was “pinpoint(ing) just Prequel fans”:

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Again:

ken-obi said:

“For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy.” - Stardust1138

No, the whataboutery doesn’t wash, or hold true. You may also want to look at the history of this forum and why it was formed.
 

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Don’t put words in my mouth. This is something you have before, along with your insults. I didn’t pinpoint Prequels fans:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Quite clearly I said George & Prequel Zealots. Not everyday regular Prequel fans or those who enjoy most things Star Wars. I have bolded the parts above for you.

I personally felt you were as you didn’t include zealous Original Trilogy fans in your initial assessment of those who can go a little far in discussing things. It felt like you were only pinpointing zealous Prequel fans. So it’s pretty much the same thing is what I’m getting at in broader terms. There’s zealous fans on both sides. I just didn’t use the word zealous at first as you did to explain the difference. I take responsibility for that.

Look at the facts in front of you. The posts and the words. It is not the same thing at all. Or in “broader terms”.

Though I am glad you accept responsibility for your mistake, and for putting words in my mouth once again.

We merely have a different read on what it seemed like you said. That’s okay. We can’t agree on everything and will get a different context to some things.

BedeHistory731 said:

Mat Lucas > Matt Lanter, as far as Anakin voices go. Mat actually sounds vaguely like Hayden!

I agree Mat Lucas does sound more like Hayden vaguely but I enjoy Matt Lanter’s take on the character slightly more as he made it more of his own.

You obviously have a disconnect between what you thought I said and what I actually said.

Again, please read and think about what others are actually saying, before jumping in.

I’m not the only one. Darth Malgus had the same read as I did with your initial statement.

And?

How does that change my post above?

I haven’t even read what Darth Malgus has posted yet. So far it has been difficult enough getting you to read, realize, acknowledge and accept responsibility for mistaking what I actually wrote, for what you thought I wrote. “Sorry, I’ll take more care in the future to read what people are actually saying” would have simply done it.

Are we done now? You’re going to read and think about what others are actually saying, before jumping in? Great. Do you want me to go read Darth Malgus post and reply to him too? If it is okay with you I’ll do this later.

I’m just pointing out that Darth Malgus had a similar read to what you said as I did. That’s all. So it’s not only me who took what you said differently from how you presented it. I’m done though for sure as it feels like I’m getting gaslighted for not using the exact words you want me to use or how my points about the backlash George and Prequel fans got were a real thing are being claimed as false when it was anything but that. Especially when it equally pushed Ahmed Best, Jake Lloyd, and others involved to dark places.

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

No. You clearly said I was “pinpoint(ing) just Prequel fans”:

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Again:

ken-obi said:

“For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy.” - Stardust1138

No, the whataboutery doesn’t wash, or hold true. You may also want to look at the history of this forum and why it was formed.
 

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Don’t put words in my mouth. This is something you have before, along with your insults. I didn’t pinpoint Prequels fans:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Quite clearly I said George & Prequel Zealots. Not everyday regular Prequel fans or those who enjoy most things Star Wars. I have bolded the parts above for you.

I personally felt you were as you didn’t include zealous Original Trilogy fans in your initial assessment of those who can go a little far in discussing things. It felt like you were only pinpointing zealous Prequel fans. So it’s pretty much the same thing is what I’m getting at in broader terms. There’s zealous fans on both sides. I just didn’t use the word zealous at first as you did to explain the difference. I take responsibility for that.

Look at the facts in front of you. The posts and the words. It is not the same thing at all. Or in “broader terms”.

Though I am glad you accept responsibility for your mistake, and for putting words in my mouth once again.

We merely have a different read on what it seemed like you said. That’s okay. We can’t agree on everything and will get a different context to some things.

BedeHistory731 said:

Mat Lucas > Matt Lanter, as far as Anakin voices go. Mat actually sounds vaguely like Hayden!

I agree Mat Lucas does sound more like Hayden vaguely but I enjoy Matt Lanter’s take on the character slightly more as he made it more of his own.

You obviously have a disconnect between what you thought I said and what I actually said.

Again, please read and think about what others are actually saying, before jumping in.

I’m not the only one. Darth Malgus had the same read as I did with your initial statement.

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

No. You clearly said I was “pinpoint(ing) just Prequel fans”:

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Again:

ken-obi said:

“For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy.” - Stardust1138

No, the whataboutery doesn’t wash, or hold true. You may also want to look at the history of this forum and why it was formed.
 

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Don’t put words in my mouth. This is something you have before, along with your insults. I didn’t pinpoint Prequels fans:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Quite clearly I said George & Prequel Zealots. Not everyday regular Prequel fans or those who enjoy most things Star Wars. I have bolded the parts above for you.

I personally felt you were as you didn’t include zealous Original Trilogy fans in your initial assessment of those who can go a little far in discussing things. It felt like you were only pinpointing zealous Prequel fans. So it’s pretty much the same thing is what I’m getting at in broader terms. There’s zealous fans on both sides. I just didn’t use the word zealous at first as you did to explain the difference. I take responsibility for that.

Look at the facts in front of you. The posts and the words. It is not the same thing at all. Or in “broader terms”.

Though I am glad you accept responsibility for your mistake, and for putting words in my mouth once again.

We merely have a different read on what it seemed like you said. That’s okay. We can’t agree on everything and will get a different context to some things.

BedeHistory731 said:

Mat Lucas > Matt Lanter, as far as Anakin voices go. Mat actually sounds vaguely like Hayden!

I agree Mat Lucas does sound more like Hayden vaguely but I enjoy Matt Lanter’s take on the character slightly more as he made it more of his own.

ken-obi said:

No. You clearly said I was “pinpoint(ing) just Prequel fans”:

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Again:

ken-obi said:

“For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy.” - Stardust1138

No, the whataboutery doesn’t wash, or hold true. You may also want to look at the history of this forum and why it was formed.
 

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Don’t put words in my mouth. This is something you have before, along with your insults. I didn’t pinpoint Prequels fans:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Quite clearly I said George & Prequel Zealots. Not everyday regular Prequel fans or those who enjoy most things Star Wars. I have bolded the parts above for you.

I personally felt you were as you didn’t include zealous Original Trilogy fans in your initial assessment of those who can go a little far in discussing things. It felt like you were only pinpointing zealous Prequel fans. So it’s pretty much the same thing is what I’m getting at in broader terms. There’s zealous fans on both sides. I just didn’t use the word zealous at first as you did to explain the difference. I take responsibility for that.

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

George has had many visions, re-wrote history, lied, deceived, attempted to change the audience’s memories of the films for his many changing visions in the case of the OT.

He had the chance to make his Sequel Trilogy for many years, and chose not to, until his latest vision for the ST came to him circa 2012, with Leia now retconned to be made the Chosen One, not Anakin. No wonder the company he sold Star Wars to passed on it.
 

I won’t get into the first bit as I don’t want to have another argument.

However with the second part I find context matters again. He started working on it in circa 2011 before Disney came into the picture. He always said before selling that the Sequels weren’t ever as fleshed out. It makes sense they’d need some work with what he already had originally. He had the same approach with the Prequels but more to work with when doing them as he had already developed it a great deal. There’s no retcon with Leia being made the “Chosen One”. He didn’t necessarily mean it literally per say but merely it seems to be an extension of the Mortis story arc in The Clone Wars series. He was merely recontextualising the story and adding new meanings to things we knew partial information to. A story grows and evolves. This is natural.

Stardust1138 said:

Greetings all! It’s been awhile. Further details of George’s Sequels leaked from the upcoming book “The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005”.

Here George gives a greater context to the story of the trilogy he wanted to tell beyond what we’ve heard with regards to the Whills, Luke being in exile to find his spark again in Episode VII, and the son of Han and Leia falling to the Dark Side.

THE CHOSEN ONE

…

George Lucas: "Darth Maul trained a girl, Darth Talon, who was in the comic books as his apprentice. She was the new Darth Vader, and most of the action was with her. So these were the two main villains of the trilogy. Maul eventually becomes the godfather of crime in the universe because, as the Empire falls, he takes over.

The movies are about how Leia—I mean, who else is going to be the leader?—is trying to build the Republic. They still have the apparatus of the Republic but they have to get it under control from the gangsters. That was the main story.

It starts out a few years after Return of the Jedi and we establish pretty quickly that there’s this underworld, there are these offshoot stormtroopers who started their own planets, and that Luke is trying to restart the Jedi. He puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left. The Jedi have to grow again from scratch, so Luke has to find two- and three-year-olds, and train them. It’ll be 20 years before you have a new generation of Jedi.

By the end of the trilogy Luke would have rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Leia, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One."

Seem pretty literal, and from George’s own mouth.

I dont’t find it as literal as it may seem. I own the book the quote comes from. Different things mean different things just as it does within the book or a story. Context changes within different parts of the story being added to. Sometimes you have to dig deeper than only taking what is given to you at face value. The cake beneath the surface. He thought through his decisions and why he’d do them. He acted on intuition and knew what he felt was best for serving the stories he wanted to tell. He has a different approach to changing things than how fans take them to mean.

Darth Malgus said:

I agree with Stardust1138. There are many Prequel fans who behave toxic and offend all those who don’t think like them, but there are also many Original Trilogy fans who do the exact same thing. Idiots are everywhere, no matter what their opinion is. If a person is stupid no matter what his opinion is, he remains stupid regardless, because what makes a person stupid is not his opinions, but his behavior towards others. Explanations aren’t universal and there are things that can work for some people, but that cannot work for other people. For exemple, some people say that Revenge of the Sith doesn’t work as an introduction to the Original Trilogy, or that Rogue One doesn’t work as a prequel to A New Hope. Well, I have never felt this way and I have never managed to understand the point of view of those who support these ideas, but I have always respected their opinion, because the fact that those two films work for me doesn’t mean they can work for everyone. Thank God I became a Star Wars fan in 2018/2019, when the Prequel hate was already pretty much disappeared. If I had been a Star Wars fan between 2005 and 2012 I would have been treated like shit literally by everyone, since I love the Prequel Trilogy and I’m absolutely not willing to compromise on my personal tastes. I was lucky, because my personal tastes came to coincide with an historical period in which they weren’t considered stupid and attacked by everyone. But I don’t want to imagine what the Prequel fans had to go through between 2005 and 2012…

Exactly. It was a rough time until around 2016/2017. That’s when I feel the shift fully started. I also respect everyone’s opinion but it may not seem clear with how I tend to side more with George than fans.

ken-obi said:

“For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy.”

No, the whataboutery doesn’t wash, or hold true. You may also want to look at the history of this forum and why it was formed.
 

Stardust1138 said:

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

Don’t put words in my mouth. This is something you have before, along with your insults. I didn’t pinpoint Prequels fans:

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Quite clearly I said George & Prequel Zealots. Not everyday regular Prequel fans or those who enjoy most things Star Wars. I have bolded the parts above for you.

Have you seen The People versus George Lucas or the Red Letter Media “reviews”? They’re incredibly biased towards being against George Lucas, the Prequels, and anyone who likes them. They don’t hold equal discussion but merely what reinforces the majority.

And that’s exactly what I’m saying as well. I mean in broader terms as well.

ken-obi said:

George has had many visions, re-wrote history, lied, deceived, attempted to change the audience’s memories of the films for his many changing visions in the case of the OT.

He had the chance to make his Sequel Trilogy for many years, and chose not to, until his latest vision for the ST came to him circa 2012, with Leia now retconned to be made the Chosen One, not Anakin. No wonder the company he sold Star Wars to passed on it.
 

I won’t get into the first bit as I don’t want to have another argument.

However with the second part I find context matters again. He started working on it in circa 2011 before Disney came into the picture. He always said before selling that the Sequels weren’t ever as fleshed out. It makes sense they’d need some work with what he already had originally. He had the same approach with the Prequels but more to work with when doing them as he had already developed it a great deal. There’s no retcon with Leia being made the “Chosen One”. He didn’t necessarily mean it literally per say but merely it seems to be an extension of the Mortis story arc in The Clone Wars series. He was merely recontextualising the story and adding new meanings to things we knew partial information to. A story grows and evolves. This is natural.

Exactly what I’m saying. So no reason to pinpoint just Prequel fans at first as the only ones who can go a little far in how we all discuss the films.

This is why pushing the arguably more interesting aspects of the story in my opinion to backstory was a mistake. Context is missing from understanding why things are the way they are in favour of a modern retelling of the Original Trilogy.

I think George’s approach of having the Solowalker son fall to the Dark Side in Episode VII works better as you’d get to see him train under Luke and be warned but still be corrupted by Darth Talon and extension Darth Maul. Anakin’s Force Ghost naturally couldn’t interfere as it’s an unwritten but slightly written rule in universe that Force Ghosts can’t interfere with the temporal world. However you could still have Luke find his spark of hope through the Solowalker daughter over the course of the film to go try making things right to ulimately succeeding at rebuilding the Jedi Order by the end of the trilogy as the responsibility of bringing back the son rests on the daughter. It’s interesting how an early draft of the series had a sister trying to save her brother. So the idea came full circle.

Context matters.

StarkillerAG said:

Anchorhead said:

Stardust1138 said:
… but as long as films like Marvel and what Star Wars is becoming are successful the storyteller will be pushed out of the equation.

The MCU is light years ahead of the Star Wars franchise where consistent story and vision are concerned. Casting, writing, acting, depth, etc - all are significantly better that the Star Wars franchise. That consistent vision also translates to their TV shows as well.

Across both mediums, the MCU holds a solid and connected narrative. After 1977, Star Wars hasn’t even held a narrative from one film to the next.

Sorry, but I heavily disagree. The casting in the MCU may be pretty great, but as far as writing and depth are concerned, the MCU is about as bland as a McDonalds cheeseburger. Every movie feels exactly the same, with virtually nothing interesting happening (especially after Endgame). And the MCU may have a consistent vision, but it’s a horrible vision: with godawful “comedic” dialogue, bland color grading, and distractingly obvious CGI.

Star Wars may not have a consistent direction, and some installments are much worse than others, but at least there’s actual artistry going on there. In my opinion, an inconsistent-quality franchise that has actual passion put behind it is always better than a consistent-quality franchise made by a soulless boardroom committee.

Exactly but unfortunately Star Wars is becoming the very “soulless boardroom committee” filmmaking we fear. It started with the soft reboot and has only got progressively worse from a critical standpoint. George had a vision. It’s fine if you don’t like it but he had a story he wanted to tell. It just might not be the story you would’ve told. Marvel films are the exact opposite. The directors are hired with almost all of the work already done for them. It’s low risk, high reward.