Stardust1138

I don’t think what George did with the Prequels can be considered retconing but recontextualising the story to give added or different meanings to the Originals and his Sequels if he ever made them. They were designed as the first trilogy after all. Retconing is more aligned with what the Sequels we ended up with did to Rey’s origins by changing it each film. I’d also say the Originals are just as political as the Prequels but not as heavily focused on since we’re more in the wilderness of things. However certain contexts and meanings in the Prequels carry over with it. The political situation in general is more easy to take at face value in IV, VI, and VI as we know the situation from spending more time on it in I, II, and III. Not to mention the real world sensibilities of the time it was made.

ken-obi said:

I also struggle to understand George and Prequel zealots’ narrow minded views of people not liking the Prequels is because “you just don’t understand them” or “no, you must watch X, Y, Z to understand George intent and his films”, or simply trying to work George into every post or thread they make. This seems to be a more recent occurrence online in general for PT discussions. Rarely ever talking about the what occurs onscreen, what they themselves actually enjoyed about the the PT, or adding anything new to the discussions, other than condescension and some veiled insults, and also derailing the original topic of the thread. I’m not talking about about the everyday regular Prequel fans or people who simply enjoy most things Star Wars, just the G&P zealots.

Of course everyone is grateful to George for Star Wars, his creation and his dedication, but Star Wars thankfully moved on far beyond George and his retconned and re-invented visions. There is so much more to try, to experience, and enjoy.

The irony of it is Original Trilogy fans can be the exact same way. So it’s not just a Prequels fans thing to do but something I’ve seen Original fans do as well. Isn’t it just as narrow focused to not try understanding a piece of art and claiming it’s boring without understanding all of the reasons for what it is actually telling us? I mean all of art is subjective and can be taken at face value. People can also like whatever they want but it’s not just Prequel fans that are very set in their ways sometimes of how to view Star Wars. For years Prequel fans were silenced and told we were wrong for liking them. We were laughed at and smeared for not understanding Star Wars like those who grew up with the Original Trilogy. The result is the Sequel Trilogy we ended up with was so set on getting “right” what George Lucas got “wrong” that they ended up pleasing almost no one generally speaking.

Alas, sometimes we can all go a little far in how we go about talking about the things we love and don’t love within Star Wars. In the end though we can like whatever we wish but sometimes I have found in my own experience it is a matter of not understanding something that stops me short of enjoying it. The Last Jedi was like this initially for me. I was indifferent towards it for a long time but now I can enjoy it for what it is most of the time. It’s a fine alternate universe take on Star Wars. My tastes grew and evolved to understanding it. Some things won’t work for me or grow beyond what I thought initially but that’s okay. Just as the Prequels may not work for others. It doesn’t make our opinions any less valid.

I’m grateful that I have two trilogies and a cartoon series I love. George is also my hero. So there’s that. It was his story. I had no problems with him evolving and growing it how he felt was best. I don’t see his changes as retcons but merely doing what he felt was best for the story. Was it always to my liking? Maybe not but it never belonged to me. Ulimately now it’s created in a vastly different context with a corporation telling me what happened to Luke Skywalker. I’ll always be adamant for authorship over suits who aren’t creative trying to stick their noses into a project. There’s exceptions to my belief of films where the studio helped make a film better but the list is very slim.

I really like Josh Robert Thompson’s take on it:

https://youtu.be/PN1f5aPLUc4

screams in the void said:

One thing George forgot …not all poetry rhymes , nor does it have to .

I’d say George actually understands that perfectly. His whole way of creating poetry is different than how most see it. He likes taking an idea and changing the contexts around it to give a deeper meaning within another part of the story. Along with creating visual symmetry between the two trilogies. You can also slowly see the Republic be remade into the image of the Empire through shapes and design. He sees poetry more as lyrics to a song than as a literal prose the Sequel Trilogy mostly takes it to mean. He also writes his dialogue in a very similar way. He has tones he’s aiming for instead of dialogue that’s more modern in presentation. He uses the old fashioned style versus what is considered the normal for an audience today. He finds contemporary storytelling boring.

Examples within Dialogue:

“Your lightsabers will make a fine addition to my collection.” = Intimidation

“It’s only because I’m so in love.” = Devotion

Example within Narrative Poetry: Anakin/Vader physically or emotionally wounds Padme and Luke. Both reach out to Obi-Wan. Luke through the Force. Padme directly by asking him if Anakin is okay. Then you also have the most profound part for me - Luke and Leia are being born at the same time as though Luke and Leia are communicating through the Force when Leia checks if Luke is okay and rescues him. Just as Padme does with checking with Obi-Wan if Anakin is okay and Obi-Wan is rescuing her by taking her somewhere safe. It’s also happening while Anakin is being reborn as Darth Vader and losing his grip as Darth Vader as he spares the Imperial Officers when the Millennium Falcon escapes. Just as Padme is losing her will to live and giving life. The sequence ends with Anakin in his last words before being fully reborn as Darth Vader are of asking if Padme is safe. And naturally Padme’s last words in between are her belief there’s good in Anakin. This carries over to Luke. He keeps Padme’s hopeful belief in Anakin going after being scarred by him as she was but the difference is he survived. She didn’t. Her legacy did though. His journey of saving his father is rooted in his connection with his mother. In a way Leia takes more after Anakin personality wise but Luke takes after Padme in personality. In a more beautifully haunting way of putting it, one life begins as another passes.

And Visual Poetry:

I love the Ewoks. They follow up the lessons we’ve learned of size not mattering and how your eyes can deceive you as we can also imply they roasted and ate the stormtroopers. So they’re more dangerous than they entirely appear. It’s just like the Gungans in a way. Nobody takes them seriously until Jar Jar steps up. The Gungans and Ewoks really juxtaposition each other. In a larger general sense Obi-Wan’s lesson is rooted in what Qui-Gon taught him with valuing all life and Yoda was speaking from experience.

SparkySywer said:

I think they should be reworked into worse movies

You could say that unironically is already happening with how they’ve retcon the story to include things such as Rey downloading Kylo’s powers during the mind probe scene in The Force Awakens or having some kind of lightning destroy Luke’s Jedi Temple instead of Kylo.

How? Elective Monarchy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy

They’re part of a collective system of planets within a greater political system through the larger galactic government shown with the Republic.

It’s all about ecology and symbiote relationships, along with common types of governments during ancient times. There’s always a bigger fish.

It’s been joyous playing Lego Star Wars again. My only real critiques are I wish the levels were a tad longer with certain chapters and no character creation. I can’t complain too much though with all of the characters on offer and the vast open world we were given to explore. I’m sure Free Play will be great when I get around to it. Otherwise it’s been a true genuine blast to play with so many genuinely hilarious moments like Battle Droids playing the music for Dual of the Fates during the lightsaber fight between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan versus Darth Maul. As well as new things different from the original games such as getting to explore the Jedi Library with Obi-Wan before setting off for Kamino. I have a genuine hopeful feeling it’s going to help me continue to reconcile with the Sequels and in general Disney era. I’m finding it’s already helping me see again this new era is just as much Star Wars for a new generation. It may be different from what I grew up with loving in George telling his stories but it might still be enjoyable at times with an open mind. Onwards with continuing to enjoy the ride!

The problem with the Sequels we got is that it regresses the trio and doesn’t let them be the heroes of the stories alongside the new generation of characters. They can only be carbon copies of what we knew them as or be completely different while going through character development they already overcame. They weren’t able to grow and evolve. Instead it was about re-capturing exactly what we remembered them as in the Original Trilogy.

For more context, Luke and Han were both meant to die in George’s Sequel Trilogy too. To be fair we don’t know how he would’ve handled Han’s death but do know it was going to happen in Episode VII according to Harrison Ford. However with Luke it was in Episode IX after he rebuilt the Jedi Order throughout the trilogy. Naturally I think this implies the Solowalker Daughter in his story would be given the Jedi Order before he does die. He passed on what he knew to continue off of the plot thread in Return of the Jedi. He always needed help in the Original Trilogy. So it’s great in my opinion to see Luke have a material victory more of his own outside of everyone else’s shadow.

Leia was meant to become Supreme Chancellor to echo storybeats from The Phantom Menace and bring full circle the idea of democracy returning.

In the end, it’s a lie to think you need to reduce your characters to prop up new ones. Luke only overshadows the Solowalker daughter if you let him and besides in Star Wars no character is more important than the other except maybe Anakin but even he needed help from Luke to find redemption and defeat Palpatine. It’s all about symbiote relationships.

humanracer said:

In my view, all they had to do was tell the same “hero’s journey” story but with a female lead instead of male. And they couldn’t even get that right. Three movies with no shared vision and a rushed ending.

Rey’s journey naturally follows the Heroine’s Journey as much as it does the Hero’s Journey. She’s a girl after all. The problem I find is that The Rise of Skywalker has her go through trials that she already went through. Dark Rey is more or less the equivalent to the Mirror on Atch-To. There’s also a Throne Room with her biggest adversary at the given time in both films. It’s more or less the same in both except for the difference that Rey doesn’t need Kylo’s help to defeat Palpatine as she did with overcoming Snoke.

Not to mention she begins her journey alone on a desert and ends it alone on another desert. That’s so depressing to me for a character that longs for belonging. It just feels very sloppy. I think Rey had a lot of potential to be one of the best characters in the series but they didn’t know how to write her. The Force Awakens has her as an audience insert character more or less. The Last Jedi tries to get away from this. I don’t know what The Rise of Skywalker was doing with her except to hammer home she’s the protagonist and can do everything. I find everything is given to her because the plot says so or fills a need of nostalgia being used in the story like being given Luke’s X-Wing or Chewbacca.

It’s the problem too with letting her use advanced Force Powers like the Jedi Mind Trick and Force Pull. It took Luke and Anakin time to develop their skills. Anyone can use the Force and even be a Jedi but it’s meant to take time to develop the ability to use it. There’s no stakes otherwise as it makes it a magic trick. There’s a major misconception that having Rey as a “Nobody” is this revolutionary idea but it’s not. The Jedi as a whole were a bunch of nobodies. We just happened to be following a family saga for six films. I guess you can count Kylo/Ben with Han and Leia but it misses important contexts building through the story including The Clone Wars series. He should have a sister to counter him. George wisely had a Solowalker daughter and son.

Ulimately the major problem I find with Rey is they don’t allow her to be her own individual but instead shroud her in mystery boxes and various parentages. Luke and Leia both are individuals but you know they’re Anakin and Padme’s children as they share traits, and yet they still have a sense of self and character growth.

Tobar said:

Stardust1138 said:

What would Trekkies say are essential things about it that I need to know?

I’d say you’re well on your way. Familiarity with TOS and TNG is the baseline for the franchise.

Thank you! I shall continue getting into it through both. Star Trek was always this mysterious and foreign thing for me but since looking into it again recently it started to click for me just how much I think I could potentially end up really liking it.

BedeHistory731 said:

Acknowledging that these are just stupid space wizard movies and not some “high art auteurship” would make the fandom a much less intense place.

Why can’t it be both at the same time? A story for children with deeper nuances beneath the surface that borrows from Canyon Cinema, Japanese cinema, silent films, Republic Serials, art house cinema, anthropology, history, psychology, mythology, comic books, sword and sorcery literature, and countless other things. George’s six films and really The Clone Wars series drew from many sources and are very much akin to art house cinema at the same time. The only real differences are they have an equal amount of what many consider to be mainstream qualities to go alongside being designed to be made for kids yet can be appealing cross generations and be deeply studied. This isn’t a contradiction but merely George respecting his audience and paying homage to the things he loves. Star Wars can satisfy both camps. The camp where kids tend to align that just wants to shut their brain off and then the one that likes to discover the interwoven and deeper meanings with the juxtapositions and poetry that I think personally make for an even more profound experience. However nothing will take away the pure joy of watching Star Wars as a kid and trying to like a kid would now as an adult.

His films are more than your typical popcorn flicks you find in Marvel and the majority of the Disney era of Star Wars.

If it were easy to make stories like the original six Star Wars films or books like Lord of the Rings or music like The Beatles everybody would be doing it. George deserves some credit for having some authorship instead of just playing to nostalgia but I guess it’s too much for some to make the jump that he’s just as talented as his collaborators he assembled to bring his vision to life.

Haarspalter said:

theprequelsrule said:

I have come to the point where I am more interested and fascinated by the train wreck nature of this franchise and by the toxic battles within its own fandom then the actual material.

That mindset haunts me too in terms of the Prequels. I can’t enjoy Episode I - III as movies anymore. I guess i watched the Making Ofs & Web-Docs (The Beginning, From Puppets to Pixels, etc.) more often than the movies itself. And when i watch them occasionally, i just watch them with audio commentary. I wanted to enjoy those movies so many times, but it always comes down to: trying to understand George Lucas’ awkward decision making and neverending ‘it-always-meant-to-be’ justifications. It is a puzzle i can’t solve. The OT is not tainted for me, but the PT is.

I find it helps to ask why with the poetry and juxtapositions instead of going in with reinforced beliefs of how something doesn’t fit into the Originals but more how the Prequels add new meaning to what something may have meant originally or may have been expanded upon. The Prequels are meant to give us another side to the story. Anakin’s side. The Originals are telling us second hand information with him and of the events we saw in the previous trilogy. It’s the history versus the more fable quality of the Original Trilogy.

The films according to George are meant to be seen I-VI for a reason. Some things work better when viewed from his gaze instead of how some fans may have experienced it initially. However it’s understandable it’s personal at the same time.

I don’t find anything contradicting. He said during the lead up to Revenge of the Sith to 60 Minutes he wouldn’t take a five or six year old to it but an eight or nine year old could probably handle it. He was right. That’s how old I was at the time. Star Wars has always been for kids. He said it from the very beginning to Time Magazine in 1977. Adults truly like to project their own opinions on what a kid will find interesting or boring. They rarely let them form their own thoughts. I instead find they end up projecting onto them how they think something should be or how they saw it originally. It’s no different in how they show them Star Wars. They show them the way they think the movies should be instead of letting them view things as George intended them as I-VI and letting the kid have their own opinions before giving the kid or really anyone for that matter their own opinions. Kids in general just gloss over what they don’t understand. I know I did. When it comes to Anakin killing the younglings I didn’t see much difference in terms of tone to the ending of The Empire Strikes Back or even Return of the Jedi with Palpatine torturing Luke with Force Lightning. I probably even glossed over Anakin and the younglings. It’s one of the same for a kid. Star Wars has always been designed for kids and got darker as they matured. Return of the Jedi getting slightly lighter than The Empire Strikes Back too is that Empire went away a bit from George’s vision slightly but that’s due to Irvin Kershner’s approach of focusing on character through more scripted event like cinematography and other slight changes from George’s approach. Most storytellers who tell stories for kids make the fatal mistake of dumbing down their stories or what they want to say as they’re afraid they won’t understand. George didn’t do that. He did the exact opposite. If anything he matured his stories with them and gave them lots of rewatch value now that they’re adults because we can understand more and more nuances. Harry Potter is the only other example I can think of off hand that follows a similar formula. Cinema or any media can truly influence your psyche. George always thought of the moral responsibility he had when telling his stories. He’s spoken of it. George is carefully crafting his stories to reflect these sensibilities. I wonder sometimes for some fans is it as simple as they wanted the films to age with them? That wasn’t how George did things. He made things generational and purposely darkened things down in the Prequels initially to show the decline of society before the Dark Times and Empire.

Omni said:

It’s easy to just bring in the Death of the Author into it all and claim people bastardized George’s vision, but let’s not forget it was George who decided to pass on the torch. He claimed he had already said everything he wanted to say in the universe and had left some guidelines, but that it’s up to the next generation now. The kids, now adults, that he inspired. I think that’s as beautiful an attitude as telling your whole story, if not more.

In the end it seems like George was the one that, following his buddhist - and Jedi - ways, was able to let go, while some were not. Perhaps there’s still things to be learned from him.

I agree in a sense but at the same time part of what Disney bought was George’s treatments for VII, VIII, and IX. The way they handled things was like a snake’s oil salesman. The whole situation reeks of disrespect and having no intentions of respecting him or fans. They merely took shortcuts and did what was easy. It’s no coincidence they shut George up and told him to not make any further comments after The Force Awakens. You only got a passive “It was beautifully well made” with The Last Jedi. He’s said in the past films can be beautifully made but he doesn’t necessarily like them. The same with Rogue One and The Mandalorian. We’re told he likes them but we were also told he liked The Force Awakens initially. Call me cynical if you will but I do tend to believe he probably does enjoy them as it’s not executives shooting the breeze but creatives in Gareth Edwards and Dave Filoni. It’s no coincidence I don’t think either though that Marcia Lucas’s comments got buried by the news outlets within days and no one pays attention to her saying she knows it’s hard for George when Disney drags him to events. It’s no coincidence Mark Hamill had a complete 180 degree turn on The Last Jedi and yet you see him fave tweets disapproving certain things or calling Lucasfilm different from the “indie garage band” they had back in the day. He stopped himself short of being critical of the current way of doing things by calling it a “full symphony orchestra and he’s not complaining” in Howard Kazanjian’s book. It’s not coincidence that Ben Burtt, Nick Gillard, Ahmed Best, the late great Jonathan Rinzler, and countless others from the past feel that Lucasfilm and Star Wars has longer lost a step.

However the biggest thing is you see George tell the children in the speaking gig he had with his wife that the first six films are very much his and his philosophy. He also told Paul Duncan that he thought he’d have more say in the way things would go with the Sequels and yet he also said how sometimes just as in life that things don’t always go the way we want. And that, that is advice I think we can all learn from as the Sequels or even for some the Prequels we got didn’t go as we may have wanted for the same or different contexts but we can let go by moving forward and maybe we’ll find a way to accept that Star Wars is no longer one man’s vision or to our liking but recognise that it is now told from a different prospective told by fans and dare I say a corporation.

Can Star Wars survive this? Only time will tell and all we can do is hope. Hope and wait for something that will give us some joy. There’s no point in being bitter and angry. I may not love the Sequels but I’m finding my peace in accepting them as an alternate universe told by Disney and what Hollywood sees Star Wars as. This is very different from my Star Wars that consists of the first six films and The Clone Wars series but you know sometimes they might make something I enjoy. It’s happened twice in the Disney era with Rogue One and Rebels with some enjoyment in retrospect towards The Last Jedi. Will it happen again? I hope so. I hope for the best from all of these people involved now and those that are added to the picture in the future. I hope to be pleasantly surprised we get something that can bring joy and passion similar to the old way of doing things but if not I will always have what I love and the ability to try giving things a different look as time heals and gives prospective as it’s happened before. We’re always growing and evolving if we desire to.

Added Cloud Atlas. It looks like it will be such an intriguing and fun film.

The key difference between the Prequels and Sequels is context. George merely recontextualised the whole story to his intended meanings and what the story meant to him with the Prequels. The Tragedy of Darth Vader. He felt it got lost at the end of Return of the Jedi. I tend to agree with him as many fans have a hard time with fully seeing Anakin and Darth Vader as the same person. The story grew and evolved from what it may have been originally planned as but many core aspects remain from very early drafts. The story took the natural progression route of telling stories as he had lived in the world he created and knew it more than when he was still developing what it could be with say the early drafts of A New Hope that had various outcomes. Some fans were upset because he didn’t “respect” what came before or added things they found unnecessary. That’s subjective and different from the storyteller in George adding to what was told originally. He just had a different point of view from fans when it came time of the Prequels. These fans were naturally upset as it felt different on the surface from the Originals but that’s the whole point. It was meant to give us Anakin’s side of the stories we are told mainly by Obi-Wan in the Originals yet also bring a brighter light to core aspects that got more attention in the Prequels. Namely symbiote relationships and the mythology with the Force.

However with the Sequels we got it’s merely a corporation hiring storytellers who reinforce what many Original Trilogy fans thought of Star Wars before the Prequels. It’s telling us things from a fan’s prospective and how they may remember it being talked about growing up but missing core contexts of the story told to them by George. It does this by mostly ignoring the Prequels except for a few superficial references and surface level observations in the Original Trilogy. Examples, not paying attention to things like Luke seeing Darth Vader as Anakin Skywalker, his father, by the time of Return of the Jedi or what Balance of the Force meant. They’re not looking at the context or rules of the saga as a whole with the Sequels but merely their idea of what Star Wars meant to them as a kid or will make back their parent company’s investment back as fast as possible. This ulimately came back to bite them as whenever you run away from your story it will eventually catch up with you. The saga to George was the story of Anakin Skywalker and his family. Some fans don’t like this but that’s the story.

Why should an artist try appealing to fans? It’s nonsensical and gets you nowhere. I say it as humbly as possible you shouldn’t bother telling a story at all if you can’t respect the whole story. The Prequels are part of the fabric of Star Wars. Some may not like it but it’s fact and reality. Finish the story and let George’s nine part saga be told. If you want to move away from the concepts of Midi-Chlorians and the Chosen One afterwards be our guest but at least let his story be told from the beginning, middle, and end as he’s the creator of the story of the Skywalker family. It may even bring understanding that he thought through things more than he’s given credit for when you see the full contexts in the complete story. Disney would then have true freedom to do anything they wanted as they wouldn’t be beholden to the rules and contexts of what came before. Sure it would be ideal to continue to respect Star Wars as a whole of what came before but if you want to appeal to a mass audience after completing his story you’d be at liberty to do so more than at any other point. You could even still have the spinoffs like Rogue One and Solo to appease fans of the Original Trilogy. The majority of fans who strictly like the Original films tend to rave about them. In particular Rogue One. Not everyone of course but that’s subjective as all art is.

I don’t understand why some fans believe they have ownership over what Star Wars is though. It’s not always about us as fans. It’s just as much about each generation that comes along and giving them a story that continues the mythos. The Sequels we ended up with fail at doing this as they’re merely giving into the Prequel backlash and not concluding the story as George planned it to be told. They’re merely playing to fan expectations and giving us what they think we want or playing to what they expect us to see by subverting expectations. This is horribly disrespectful to George and the hard work of everyone who worked on the original six films. They came so close but were a country mile at the same time from truly getting Star Wars right. Now it feels like nobody from a fan prospective or the powers that be are truly happy unless you’re a fan that consumes everything given to you or you’re merely at a place where you can pick and choose or you can simply ignore and know Star Wars isn’t for you anymore. We are what they grow beyond I suppose. I just didn’t expect it would be this soon or done through the characters I love in Luke, Leia, and Han. It would’ve given needed closure to see them grow and evolve naturally instead of staying stilted to what we knew them as before or barely being recognisable yet reconfiguring their character arc in a way that serves what came before it in the previous two films.

We all deserved better but that’s a corporation for you. The central artist or auteur is the most important part of any project like this but as long as films like Marvel and what Star Wars is becoming are successful the storyteller will be pushed out of the equation. It may not always be perfect or smooth but I’d rather have a few eye rolls in things like stepping in poodoo over a few hundred contradictions that disrespect what came before in the final trilogy of the Skywalker family saga. We must in these terms and general learn from our mistakes as our story is our takes for the generations to come. Everything has a consequence and domino effect, and that’s a lesson George Lucas taught me.

Okay. Rant Over.

Shenmue the Animation.

https://youtu.be/ybkgsZU18sk

It’s based on a cult video game series of the same name from the late 90’s and early 00’s that went through years of development hell until Shenmue III finally got made after a successful Kickstarter pledge and was released in 2019. I highly recommend the games. The anime for it from all that I’ve glimpsed looks as though it truly captures the spirit of what I felt all those years ago.

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

I think you may have missed the context of the first conversation:

Emre1601 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

I think you may have missed the context of the first conversation:

Emre1601 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

So I did. My apologies for the misunderstanding on my part. I find this to be part of George’s genius. The great thing about A New Hope originally and I’d even say The Phantom Menace for those of us that experienced it first before seeing the Original Trilogy is both leave the door open for so many possibilities and truly allow you to create stories with your imagination as much as it is what is on screen that you can make your own. It’s one of my favourite aspects of how George creates the opening episode of the trilogies. They’re both very important to the whole narrative but they also stand alone the most of all six. Yet they can all stand on their own at the same time. It’s truly a balancing act and hard to follow this rule of structure with how they’re all meant to be seen as a collective whole at the same time according to George.

Bonnie Raitt - Something to Talk About

https://youtu.be/mJ58TVYNFro

Quarterflash - Harden My Heart

https://youtu.be/OqeKV2UYq1Q

Christopher Cross - Arthur’s Theme

https://youtu.be/Q_jYYr0YI2Q

George Harrison - Crackerbox Palace

https://youtu.be/8Ac34Khe-fc

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning. I think that Star Wars intended as “Anakin’s Saga” is perfect, and that no other changes should be made to the ultimate meaning of the Saga, as Disney tried to do. They tried to change the meaning of Star Wars from “Anakin’s Saga” to “The Skywalker Saga”, and that’s something I don’t approve.

George and those closest to him like Rick McCallum also called it the “Skywalker Saga” or at least the story of a family and I think personally the next natural step for the Sequels to explore is the realm beyond the material world as George intended. You see Anakin’s fall, redemption, and ultimately afterlife. It seems to me the story was always progressing towards eclipsing the entire universe in things George and Mark Hamill have both said. Yet it is also rooted in the idea of exploring all three phases of one’s life but also have the family angle at the same time. It’s still Anakin’s story as the “Ultimate Father” as George called him when discussing things with Bill Moyers but it is just as much about his family starting with the mother he left behind. The feminine is just as important to the story as the masculine. This comes full circle in his Sequels with a Mother and Daughter to contrast where the story began with a Mother and Son.

The Star Wars Purist said:

Personally, I would recommend starting with using color film first because it’s what most of us are already used to and it’s easier to create the images you want on it.

Thank you for commenting on my thread for this. That could be a good idea. I’ll have to look into film video cameras too. I appreciate your suggestion.

Servii said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree. Over time, I’ve mostly soured on the whole Chosen One prophecy. Both for the reason you mentioned, and also because I think it undermines the ideas of free will that the OT had.

To be fair in a real world context free will could apply to God. He, himself had free will and chose to die for sins. So it’s not unlike Anakin who ulimately decided on if he wanted to save his son or let him perish along with letting the Dark Side win. If anything it strengths the case of free will as displayed throughout both trilogies. You can choose to follow your destiny or you can ignore it and evil will prevail gradually if you don’t listen to your calling. The Prequels often deal with the push and pull between doing what is required and what is easy. The key difference is the oppressor is pulling the strings behind the curtain. Yet also Jar Jar had a choice on if he wanted to help the Naboo, Qui-Gon had a choice to free Anakin and Jar Jar, Padme had a choice if she wanted to help her people or not, and etc… Utimately Anakin had a choice if wanted to join Palpatine or not. I personally don’t see anything in the Chosen One prophecy that contradicts free will. If anything it makes Anakin’s fall more tragic as he had to become the very thing he swore to destroy and lose everything but his children to finally see his destiny was to bring Balance of the Force.

Darth Malgus said:

But making Leia the Chosen One is an abomination in my opinion, and bringing Darth Maul back is a colossal idiocy, which I never liked even in TCW. I greatly prefer the Old Expanded Universe post-ROTJ stories over this.

With Leia I think it aligns with the arc in The Mortis Arc in The Clone Wars. I understand you don’t like it as you prefer the Expanded Universe. However in it you have a family in Balance with Father, Son, and Daughter in the spiritual world. It comes together in the material world where Leia becomes the Mother of the Galaxy in a general sense with being the Supreme Chancellor with her children or at least her daughter serving as the Grand Master of the New Jedi Order after Luke passes on in Episode IX to carry on his legacy. Just as it is very much carrying on Anakin’s legacy as the Chosen One and Ones but with a Mother instead of a Father. It also has a Daughter. It’s very much how the previous trilogy was Father and Son. It’s life returning to the feminine and coming full circle to the ideas set up in The Phantom Menace where Padme gives away democracy and the Jedi having lost their way to finding stability again after decades. It’s all about a family in the end.

I was a bit unsure about Darth Maul coming back at first too but upon reflection I think it really works as he would have a personal connection and natural rivalry with Luke and the Skywalker family as a whole as he’s what directly set in motion Anakin being led to being trained by Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon - arguably this had major consequences on Anakin and he would probably also know the inner workings of the Grand Plan. So he’d be the perfect candidate in a way to give context to the mystery of Sifo-Dyas in an organic way as George planned to explain he was a secret Sith. He’d also know the inner workings with the Crime Syndicates as it started being established in The Clone Wars before George left. It makes sense to have crime lords trying to overtake the New Republic with the power vacuum created by the demise of the Hutts and Empire. It benefits greatly I think having a main villain that has a direct connection to the conflicts of the entire saga instead of a random main villain as Snoke was at first or worse adding context with someone like Palpatine coming back who walks all over Anakin’s origins through Snoke being created in the way it’s implied he is in Palpatine’s wording, his legacy, and redemption.

I think his entire Sequel Trilogy treatment really works very well for me. They give fans some of what they’ve always wanted to see with Luke restoring the Jedi Order and have respect for the legacy characters as a whole by letting them continue to grow. They also ulimately give us something new instead of just pleasing us through nostalgia by bringing the story full circle by taking account the entire story instead of just the Original Trilogy as the source material. The Whills are my favourite part of it. They’re the last link between understanding Midi-Chlorians and the Force. These things combined connect to the biggest mystery of them all - Anakin’s origins.
It’s arguably the most important part of the story not answered in the Skywalker Saga…

SparkySywer said:

Maybe the prequels are less clean cut than I thought.

SparkySywer said:

IDK what Stardust’s talking about when it comes to Palpatine’s hubris or whatever.

I’m talking about this moment not long afterwards. Palpatine believes him to be dead. His arrogance and overconfidence is on full display as it is with Luke later. It’s just not called out the time in Revenge of the Sith as he’s surrounded by those who don’t question him. The moments ultimately juxtaposition off of each other and are interrelated. Poetry has to be different to work. There’s loads and loads of examples of this concept between the two trilogies. I’m still discovering them and find it makes for such a rewarding experience when you ask why.

I mean it’s no different from travelling to Yavin IV from the Death Star. It’s always been a bit whimsical. I’d say the worse offenders are the Sequels. Namely J.J.'s films.

The Falcon got to Bespin I think with clever skill on Han’s part as he followed along to Imperial standards of dumping garbage before they make their jump to Hyperspace. He just didn’t expect Boba to catch on. Boba learned from a very similar experience with Obi-Wan when with Jango in the asteroid field.

LexX said:

It is also weird Luke referring to Ben as Obi-Wan for the first time in ROTJ. I wonder if that is a writing error as well, or is it something that happened production-wise. For the past 2 movies and 30 years of Luke’s life he’s always been Ben to him, and then a couple of years after his death and when he has seen Ben for only 2 times after that, he starts to call him Obi-Wan? It just doesn’t fit into the story.

I don’t see this as an error. Yoda says as Luke is leaving Dagobah the first time - “Yes, yes to Obi-Wan you listen” - when they’re trying to warn him to not go to his friends. Anakin/Vader also calls him Obi-Wan to Luke. Luke naturally picked up on considering him as Obi-Wan instead of Ben Kenobi, his alas, from exile. He does though still call him Ben when they’re sitting together and having their more personal heart to heart. “I can’t do it, Ben.” I can count only three times when he refers to him by the name Obi-Wan. Once when he isn’t sure if who he knows as Ben is one of the same as Obi-Wan, with Leia on the Death Star, and the last time you talk about is when he says “Obi-Wan” before thet instance where they sit down and talk things out. You can see his slight irritation before they do. It makes sense within each context. Plus keep in mind Luke is only twenty three in Return of the Jedi.