twooffour

He might've not explicitely said that, but from all said and shown in the movie, this is THE ONLY LOGICAL AND OBVIOUS CONCLUSION, safe from the craziest mental gymnastics.

Well either he guessed it, or more probably, saw where they were headed without FTL and it was the sole possible destination. Are there any alternative scenarios to that??!

That plot point has its own problems, and Boba Fett ain't one of them.

Either that, or it can't blow THROUGH the gas giant Yavin. Either way, they can't blow.

Having that said, that part has been made fun of ad nauseum, as well.

1) She spouts off expository dialogue along two other dudes, so obviously, she IS a leader of some sort.

2) Nothing separates her from that beard dude from Danduin, that cool other dude from Hoth, the beard guy from that same scene who looks like Obi Wan, and ITSATRAP. They're all, like... "leaders". Obviously. Maybe Mothma doesn't lead military operations, but just spouts off infodump?

3) It doesn't matter to the overall story, or anything else. It's the rebels. They are somehow organized, have like ranks, and some of their authoritative figures lead operations and hold briefings. Whether Mothma is "a leader", or "the leader", DOESN'T MATTER.

Diego said:

The whole thing is somewhat ridiculous, so whether it is implicit or it needs more explanation makes little difference.

We're introduced to a Trade Federation that for some reason has a huge army, apparently bigger than anything the Republic has, at least until they get the clones. They also have a senator for whatever reason. That makes no sense.

They blockade a planet to stop trade, even though their business is trade and they're going to lose money. But ok, they're making a point, give us a tax cut or there's no trade, I could see that.

The Republic then sends Jedi to negotiate, because not only are they the guardians of peace and justice, it seems they're also tax collectors. What makes them experts on trade? Do they teach Intergalactic Trade at the Jedi temple? I don't remember Yoda teaching that to Luke. Maybe that's why he wanted Luke not to leave Dagobah: "Luke you must complete the training, you haven't even taken Intergalactic Trade 101 yet!

Anyway, Qui-Gon says the Federation are cowards and the negotiations would be short. So what was Qui-Gon's plan? "Pay your taxes or I'll cut you in half with my lightsaber". 

The whole situation is strange, the basics are iffy and it's a very boring way to start the saga. 

The comparison with the "Long nose guy" however is not very good. He's merely a spy or whatever that has 2 seconds of screen time. We're told that Mos Eisley is filled with scum and villany, so we can expect characters like him. The problem with the Trade Federation is that they are a mayor part of the film and they're presented as a very well organized group (as I mentioned, they even have a senator) so the risk of invading a planet is huge. It's hard to imagine what could Sidious have promised to them that was worth taking such a risk. Perhaps Sidious had a sex tape of Nute Gunray and he was going to make it public.

But again the whole Trade Federation plot is lame, even if it had been explained it would still suck

 

With all due respect, you're mostly just aping RLM there.

I was going to post some problems I have with some of their points at some point, but I'm gonna address a few issues here:

We're introduced to a Trade Federation that for some reason has a huge army, apparently bigger than anything the Republic has, at least until they get the clones. They also have a senator for whatever reason. That makes no sense.

None of that explicitely "doesn't make sense", it's just the films do a piss-poor job of throwing all these major political players into the pot and not doing a bit of establishing them to make the plot stand on its feet.

The Trade Federation apparently can afford robots and factories - rich corporations sometimes hire mercenaries. By all that's implied in the film, the actual robot army wasn't known to the senate. Or maybe it was :D

The Republic has no army because they have laws against it, or something. Why, or whether the Traders are "allowed" to have one, is unclear.

Them having a senator... well, from all I can gather from the films, with all those "systems" joining the Separatists, and the cartoons presented as "separatist leaders" in II, apparently the senate has representatives of both good ol' "nations" as well as companies and corporations (like, uh, the "techno union" or whatever). So I have no problem with that bit.

They blockade a planet to stop trade, even though their business is trade and they're going to lose money. But ok, they're making a point, give us a tax cut or there's no trade, I could see that.

That, and they're probably still providing the rest of the universe with... trade.

Anyway, Qui-Gon says the Federation are cowards and the negotiations would be short. So what was Qui-Gon's plan? "Pay your taxes or I'll cut you in half with my lightsaber". 

Uhh, maybe some kind of pressure, yea. Or... or, you know, like the Troi thing. Since the Jedi are apparently part of the government in the prequels (or even according to the OT), them knowing about law isn't far-fetched, and being engaged in diplomatic missions among others (again, due to their empathy skills, apparent self-control or lack of bias or shit) doesn't seem nonsensical.

That's one part that would've been much better if fleshed out, but it doesn't take one out of the movie.

The whole situation is strange, the basics are iffy and it's a very boring way to start the saga.

Pretty much this. Plus that even the Palpatine plotline is just as stupid ;)

It's hard to imagine what could Sidious have promised to them that was worth taking such a risk.

It could've even been nothing more than them simply seeking for help to resolve their tax thing - or, maybe they had some large agenda together that somehoe tied into the separatist thing. Or not.

Not only aren't we told WHAT Sidious promised them, we're not even told whether it was actually the "Sidious promised something in return" scenario.

WHAT did Sidious do at all? He obviously had influence on the senate... somehow... so he was like the Mafia of the senate? "Come to me if you got problems?" But, the government usually knows about the mafia (just often has a hard time doing anything against it), while Sidious seems to be a complete enigma until Dooku spells it out for Obi-Wan. So, a really well concealed don with absolutely loyal "clients" (guess they were afraid of force choke... right?).

Aaand, another great awesome idea (and cultural reference) wasted.

TV's Frink said:

Diego said:

Perhaps Sidious had a sex tape of Nute Gunray and he was going to make it public.

Hawt.

 Hawter than a night... in Megan's fox hole?

TheBoost said:

twooffour said:

... ...

 

Uuuhm.. Boost... did you even read what I wrote to you? I understand you left most of it out and replaced it with a "..." for clarity purposes, but does the "..." actually stand for "tldr" again? Why the heck did I just waste half a page on you??

Now, if you read between the lines there, he's just ridiculing this lack of exposition and the inexplicable "power reactor" that just pops up in the palace. Playing additionally dumb on an already threadbare, lazy plot, is an effective and obvious ironic device.

 

I've read your posts.

Primarily, I disagree that a lengthy, poorly done, and unfunny review deserves my hard work to 'interpret' and 'read between the lines' and what he might mean. I did my time doing that with Melville in college. If RLM wants me to notice that the Jedi are dressed the same as moisture farmers (I already did) then he shouldn't say dumb shit like 'how did the robot know they were Jedi?' 

 Inventing stupid things to complain about is not a brilliant rhetorical device with biting irony and satire worthy of Oscar Wilde. It's just inventing stupid things to complain about.

And in a movie that has faster-than-light travel, magic powers, a planet covered with a giant city, a large "power reactor" (is that what that is?) under the city doesn't seem that odd, let alone "inexplicable." Why are there bottomless pits in the Death Star and Cloud City? Death Star doesn't even have rails!

Point is, the fact we even have to "figure anything out ourselves" (which, in this case, translates to "guess the script for the scriptwriter"), is the movie's flaw.

So I'm supposed to stay up all night trying to decode what RLM's reviews mean, but watching this movie nothing can be implied, it all must be  (wait for it) SPELLED OUT TO ME?

Lets take a look at what's implied but not stated in the OT.

• Ben lives near Luke to look out for his friends son.
• Boba Fett guessed where Han was going and beat him there.
• The Death Star can't blow up the gas giant Yavin.
• Mon Mothma is a leader in the Rebellion
• Long-Nose in Mos Eisley probably got paid for selling out the heroes.

In 33 years has anyone ever asked "Why did Long-Nose guy sell out the heroes? Why wasn't his relationship with the stormtroopers more clearly defined?"

Could you honestly not figure out why the TF would want an investigation sent to Naboo by the Senate?

I actually don't even remember if I ever brought that up. Where did I say that?

Just something else RLM said, I assumed you agreed with. One of the 800 ridiculous points he raised.

If you mean the motivations of the main villains and the sense behind the whole plot of the movie, then, um, no, it's actually one of the FUNDAMENTAL flaws of this movie.

Lets pretend for a moment that the motivations of the villains aren't perfectly clear in every respect.  Let's say that it's not explicitly stated in the movie (which it is) that the cowardly TF made a bargain with the shadowy Sidious to blockade and invade Naboo. Lets pretend that we don't plainly see that it directly results in Palpy/Sidy increasing his own political power and also that we have no idea what possible benefit the TF could get from being allied with a powerful politician.

Seriously, if there were that 20 seconds of dialogue where Sidy says something like "As you know Nute, we had agreed previously that if you use this blockade, which is effective since much of Naboo's economy is based on exporting wheat, as a ruse to invade and deliver this signed treaty, I will use it to promote my own political goals, secret to you along with my identity, but I will arrange the lifting of the taxes you find so objectionable and help you in other ways. Anyways, here is my apprentice Darth Maul."  (info I and an 8 year old understood through implication) you think this would have suddenly been a FUNDAMENTALLY better movie?  You would have been FUNDAMENTALLY more satisfied? Would one person in the whole world have actually liked TPM better because of it?

Primarily, I disagree that a lengthy, poorly done, and unfunny review deserves my hard work to 'interpret' and 'read between the lines' and what he might mean.

Lengthy - what did you just say about this site? ;) Irrelevant.

Poorly done - yet to QED. Irrelevant.

I don't give a scratching screw if you find the review "unfunny" - finding something unfunny doesn't prevent one from recognizing an attempt at humour and where it aims / what it can possibly entail between the lines. And by this kind of interpretation, I don't mean GUESSING a meaning for it to make sense, I  mean look at the actual statement/joke and deduce from it the single, or few possible interpretations.

In a review that's clearly meant comedic and is full of snarky exaggerations, taking everything stubbornly at face value is completely absurd - if anything, you can take single parts and treat them both at face value and with a grain of salt, if the case isn't clear.

For example, when he bitches about kids in movies, and ho no one likes them and they're the kiss of death for every movie (while listing Charlie from the chocolate factory in an earlier positive example), you're left to choose whether it's a genuinely stupid statement that contradicts a previous point, or a tongue-in-cheek snarky remark that clearly stems from the fact that this particular kid happens to be superfluous and annoying. This is one of the clear cases for the latter, as far as I'm concerned.

As for whether it deserves your "hard work", well, you know, if you're gonna criticize it on an open forum and get involved in discussions, then, uh dunno, YES.

Ultimately, I know quite a few people in RL (and outside of it) who don't give a flying fuck about Star Wars, and wouldn't waste two seconds debating about those old "campy" space battle films, let alone some stupid review of those. Thing is, they also won't get involved in discussions about 'em ;)

I did my time doing that with Melville in college.

An Olympic champion who enters Special Olympics and loses, still loses the Special Olympics. If you can't be bothered applying thought here, go back to analysing serious works of classical literature.

Inventing stupid things to complain about is not a brilliant rhetorical device with biting irony and satire worthy of Oscar Wilde.

Don't know Oscar Wilde, but inferior irony is still irony.

Some people will say "Star Wars ain't the Godfather", so might as well just drop all debates and start drooling over lightsabers and dark helmets. Why are you even on this board? Isn't all this campy stuff kinda below? :p

If RLM wants me to notice that the Jedi are dressed the same as moisture farmers (I already did) then he shouldn't say dumb shit like 'how did the robot know they were Jedi?' 

Actually, he says that. "Even though every character wears robes in Star Wars" (cut to Owen, Jawas, the blue nose guy etc.).

Then he says "maybe it's not a disguise but whatever" - either he's weaseling out of his point because he realizes the Jedi actually weren't disguising themselves as they put down their hoods pretty quick... or he makes fun of how the Jedi put down their hoods as soon as the robot leaves after entering all hooded, and then don't bother putting it up again even though the robot comes back, making the whole thing with the dramatic face reveal pretty nonsensical and silly. If it's gonna be irony and tongue-in-cheek and reading inbetween lines, this is about the ONLY obvious reading there is.

Oh and yea, the robot couldn't know they were Jedi, and they also didn't flash her with their lightsabers contrary to what you had suggested, so his point still stands :D

And in a movie that has faster-than-light travel, magic powers, a planet covered with a giant city, a large "power reactor" (is that what that is?) under the city doesn't seem that odd, let alone "inexplicable."

That power reactor or whatever isn't exactly unbelievable in that place, and RLM never even hints at it being so. It does, however, severely feel like it's been shoehorned into the movie for stylistic purposes, and while it fit perfectly into the "space station" setting in the previous movies, here it almost felt like they had entered some space ship from that palace door.

It's a minor stylistic thing, and is addressed correspondingly marginally in the review. With a few ironic remarks, not nitpicking or actual criticism.

Having that said, in the review, mentioning it along with the Naboo's needs didn't seem consequent or meaningful to me. Think they did it without any further thought.

So I'm supposed to stay up all night trying to decode what RLM's reviews mean, but watching this movie nothing can be implied, it all must be  (wait for it) SPELLED OUT TO ME?

Actually, the review spells it out to you - the problem is that the movie doesn't tell us anything.

After delving into some baseless theorizing, he retreats and says "point is, I'm still not sure what they donut ships are here to do. And don't tell me it's been better explained ..."

About the TF's motivations: "oh, we're never told, are we" "I understand that Palpatine basically used the Traders (he calls them Shatnerians for some reason... do they speak like Shatner??) to advance himself politically... but the blockade and subsequent invasion are THE ENTIRE MOVIE! Understanding [...] is important." Yea, he spells it out for you as clearly as possible. No "playing dumb", no "searching for problems".

In 33 years has anyone ever asked "Why did Long-Nose guy sell out the heroes? Why wasn't his relationship with the stormtroopers more clearly defined?"

No one ever said the OT didn't have its own fair share of plot holes, contrived coincidences and expository flaws.

Having that said, the OT has been dissected and made fun of for 33 years, so I'm pretty sure that long nose guy got his fair share, as well ;)

EDIT: That, and there's a vast difference between some hired dude that does something for 3 minutes in a movie never to be seen again (with whom, in fact, it's not known whether it was a one-time job, or he was on their payroll, or they threatened his family, or whatever else - basically, "the Empire has eyes everywhere", just like real-life dictatorships and archetypal examples) and an important player in the ENTIRE PLOT OF THE TRILOGY, who constitutes the CENTER OF THE FIRST MOVIE, with whom we don't even know if it's a one-time job, a stage in a long collaboration, what they want, etc...

In one case, it's a briefly included scene that fits into a recognizeable archetype and has a clear place in the story, in the other, it's the central part of Lucas' ambition to write an interesting (and supposedly "complex") story about how the Empire we know from the OT came about through intrigue and exploitation of corporate greed and political interests rather as opposed to a simpler scenario of old cackling Emperor coming from beyond teh space and subjugating the free world.

Minor lacking exposition about an extra vs. entire movie plot consisting of nothing but cliff notes = see no difference??!

Actually, you've pulled the same thing before by bringing up the "blockade runner"'s pretense mission, and were corrected by another user who explained to you exactly why it wasn't a valid comparison for more than one reason (I can think of three such reasons).

The fact you're still trying it is either a transparently disingenuous move, or proof that you're not learning from your debates. Which kinda amounts to... PLAYING DUMB.

Just something else RLM said, I assumed you agreed with. One of the 800 ridiculous points he raised.

You're probably referring to him complaining about VALORUM agreeing with the TFs. Which I've already ADRESSED IN MY PREVIOUS POINT.

Respond to it, or leave it.

Let's say that it's not explicitly stated in the movie (which it is) that the cowardly TF made a bargain with the shadowy Sidious to blockade and invade Naboo.

So congratulations you've actually NOT been reading my posts.

Um no, those cliff notes are obvious in the movie, and clearly acknowledged by RLM. They are also THE ONLY THING WE GET.

Lets pretend that we don't plainly see that it directly results in Palpy/Sidy increasing his own political power

Actually, RLM addresses it - twice :DDDDD

Well actually, at least three times :PPPPPP

and also that we have no idea what possible benefit the TF could get from being allied with a powerful politician.

That's one of the numorous mistakes RLM does in that review - he says "he couldn't have promised them political favours, because that'd give away who he is". In the movie, he mentions to them several times how he's gonna influence the senate or whatever, so the possibility of political favours is, in fact, a possibility.

Having that said, we don't actually know whether they actually wanted political favours from him, or they just asked him for help with their own crisis, or he even threatened them with his political influence. Or they were collaborating on some larger scheme. The movies DOESN'T TELL US, and we're left guessing around these completely contradictory possibilities. I'VE SAID THAT NUMEROUS TIMES ALREADY.

Don't tell me you're reading my posts if you don't.

Seriously, if there were that 20 seconds of dialogue where Sidy says something like "As you know Nute, we had agreed previously that if you use this blockade, which is effective since much of Naboo's economy is based on exporting wheat, as a ruse to invade and deliver this signed treaty, I will use it to promote my own political goals, secret to you along with my identity, but I will arrange the lifting of the taxes you find so objectionable and help you in other ways. Anyways, here is my apprentice Darth Maul."  (info I and an 8 year old understood through implication) you think this would have suddenly been a FUNDAMENTALLY better movie?  You would have been FUNDAMENTALLY more satisfied? Would one person in the whole world have actually liked TPM better because of it?

That'd be a start, but would still get lots of flak for being cheesy, shoehorned infodump, had it been done THIS way. Had this sort of info (save for the wheat) been organically distributed through the movie, it'd certainly be better.

Showing how the Separatists arised, and whether they are a completely separate ploy from the TF crisis or there's some connection apart from the toad guys and Palpy, would be a start for the sequels. Once again, WE'RE LEFT WITH NOTHING.

Now if you had read my posts, as you're professing to have done (yet obviously haven't), you would know that what you've described above is just ONE of many possibilities (in fact, you just contradicted yourself, because earlier you said something about them doing the whole thing to profit from his influence, and now it's just resolving their tax issue), and what you and that kid thought you had "understood", by "implication", you had actually, literally GUESSED FOR THE SCRIPT. There is literally nothing in the lines said that point to one possibility over another, and all we really get is that "Sidious manipulates TFs". That's it.

Having that said, Plinkett didn't address the worst plot hole: PALPATINE COULD'VE WAITED UNTIL VALORUM'S TERM EXPIRATION. Oh wait, I guess since we don't know how long the chancellors' terms are (nothing in TPM, implied 10+ years in AOTC, Palpatine suspiciously staying after term expires in ROTS... whatever).

If they had to do a movie about some marginal, kinda unrelated ploy by Palpatine to get elected in place of Valorum, the question is why they aimed at some specific period in Valorum's... 10 year term? where it had been enough years since election, and yet enough years until re-election? Why couldn't Palpatine do it like 4 years ago? Why did the movie make him have to do the whole convoluted Naboo crisis thing AT THAT POINT?

Just another proof that Lucas really didn't think shit through. The entire plot of TPM and its "crisis" hangs on a paperthin connection to the following movies, being a kind of "prologue" to the "actual plot", and even that connection is severely hampered by suck.

Brahmmuel L Jackson said:

Out of curiosity, have you guys ever watched this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCjMGOvMghY

 For a while, I've been wondered whether the kind of people spoofed in that ingenious video, truly existed. Seems like today, my quest has found its end... and it ees glooorious!!!

Tbh, I'm having a hard time right now to figure out whether you guys are serious about this or not. If there is even an ounce of seriousness involved, I simply don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Or what to think of it all... I mean, on one hand, SW is just a bunch of entertaining movies (of which three are slightly campy adventure films, and three kinda shitty but still fun spectacles) and it seems absurd any parent should bend backwarts so much to provide their kids some kind of "perfect impression" of them... on the other hand - because it's not that big of an issue, there's no particular reason for you not do it, either, except that, you know, it's very strange.

I guess as long as you people, apart from carefully calculating how and when to feed Star Wars to your kids, you also keep up the real important educational aspects having to do with working ability, healthy lifestyle, medical basic knowledge, "social stuff" and any important parts of culture and pop-culture, I guess it's not that bad in the general picture :)

But honestly guys? The PT is just three bad films. There are sooo many really bad films out there (not just horror flicks and exploitation stuff, but all kinds of crap like stupid comedies, cheesy animated cartoons, horrible action movies, etc. etc. many of them far worse than the prequels), and sometimes being bad is what makes them fun. Sometimes, knowing how bad a movie can get, is still useful, and provides a good contrast to how good it can get, so there's really no sense in protecting children from badly done movies in general.

If you're a cineast and would like to impart your kid with some of your experiences and knowledge (gradually), then by all means - but making such a huge deal out of STAR WARS??!

So maybe you'll get them to accept the OT as good movies, but it might still take them 40 years until they've taken a peek into Casablanca or something. -I haven't seen Casablanca, either. No one cares.

Unfuckingbelievable. TFN = theforce.net?

At any rate, you could've created another account from some other computer :D Not that it matters...

But... they killed the ambassador ship!!

From what I got, everyone kinda suspected it (because of the actor, and, well, there was certainly something wrong with Palpatine - his pedosmile at Coruscant, him orgasming at getting elected etc.), but people thought that maybe it would turn out somehow... different. It didn't.

I think that's called an "untwist".

McDiarmid himself, on the bonus DVD, says so himself: "You'd indeed be a very strange person if you didn't know that." Adding that technically, he was forbidden to admit to that in public... lol.

That reminds me of something. Although I doubt it would interest anyone here, I've followed "The Matrix Online" when it was around (that multiplayer game they made as a "continuation" to the Matrix films), and, freak of the week plots aside, it started out with a myth arc about a mysterious "General" who kept perpetrating false flag attacks on the various factions to apparently saw distrust; later, he appeared in person with a bunch of soldier mooks offering his helps to the different factions and again, apparently "secretly" pushing for a war.

The execution was HYSTERICAL (just as the whole story was basically kinda cheap fanfic) - everyone had figured out he was the guy between the initial false flag attacks the moment he appeared on screen, yet the story "officially" defnied it. After a while, everyone started suspecting he and his mooks were Machine sentinels pissed at having to stop the war in the movie, thus trying to restart a war. It went on for a while, and then the big reveal came... guess what it was :D

If you want an example of how writers try to retcon their mystery into something else after the audience has figured it out, look no further than Lost :DD

TheBoost said:

twooffour said:

TheBoost said:

twooffour said:

TheBoost said:

I still stand you have to be "retarded" not to "understand" the plot of this film on the first "viewing".

He understood and mentioned what there was, and explained how the lack of any additional information made a deeper understanding IMPOSSIBLE.

I honestly don't know what kind of 'deeper' meaning you're looking for.

Should Nute Gunray have done a PowerPoint to explain to the audience how taxes effect his business? Should the Queen have explained to her councellors why a blockade was bad for them? Should Qui-Gon have worn a t-shirt that read "Protaganist?" Should the protocol droid have said, "I'm mostly sure they're Jedi because they looked and acted like Jedi and had lightsabers and Jedi-brand boots"? Would these things have helped you reach that deeper understanding you so crave?

 

So you kinda admit the fact that the movie provides no information on those aspects, while simultaneously criticizing RLM for (intentionally?) "not understanding" those aspects? ;)

At the end of the day, you're pretty much painting yourself into a corner because what little understandable "plot" there was (i.e. Sidious using a trivial McGuffin for his own goals, which, in the movie, is nothing more than getting his alter ego promoted to chancellor), RLM acknowledged, and all the absent elaborations were criticized for not being there, rather than "purposefully not understood" (hint - by your admission, the movie didn't provide any of those details for anyone to "understand). ;)

... ... ...

 

So um yea, not sure if you're trying to defend the movie, or just try to put down RLM's review for the sake of it, or because you didn't watch it properly and missed out on like 90% of its content, but basically, TPM fails and so do you.

 By my admission!?!??! Wow, you've backed me into a corner Columbo! Here I am admitting the film doesn't waste time dealing with answers to questions you keep asking that I maintain are stupid and don't need to be answered or even addressed.

Are you honestly unable to grasp that a planetary blockade is a bad thing for Naboo? Were you honestly confused when the two men in robes turned out to be Jedi? Can you honestly not figure out how a shady politician like Sidious/Palpatine might be manipulating the TF without it being spelled out to you? Could you honestly not figure out why the TF would want an investigation sent to Naboo by the Senate? Your hero, RLM apparently couldn't.

TPM has many flaws. These are not them. These are stupid.

Oh yeah, epic pwnz on you.

Uuuhm.. Boost... did you even read what I wrote to you? I understand you left most of it out and replaced it with a "..." for clarity purposes, but does the "..." actually stand for "tldr" again? Why the heck did I just waste half a page on you??

So let's go again, then, one by one...

Are you honestly unable to grasp that a planetary blockade is a bad thing for Naboo?

Um, it's obvious it's a bad thing for them, and I never said I particularly liked the part in the review where he questions Naboo's dependance on trade given their natural resources and the "universe powering" power plant. Completely unnecessary.

At the end of the day, however, the complaint raised is the lack of information on anything - the blockade and invasion are the entire movie, and we have no clue about anyone's motivations, there, or what's at stake. The blockade might be the excuse plot for the beginning, but after that, we still have no clue where the TF stands politically, or what they want from the invasion. Everything's completely blank.

Now, if you read between the lines there, he's just ridiculing this lack of exposition and the inexplicable "power reactor" that just pops up in the palace. Playing additionally dumb on an already threadbare, lazy plot, is an effective and obvious ironic device.

If you don't, that point is competely superfluous, but the reviewer still never wonders at any point whether the blockade and invasion are "bad", or why they try to negotiate against it.

 Were you honestly confused when the two men in robes turned out to be Jedi?

Now that, is just dumb. RLM never "played dumb" by pretending to be confused about it, and never did I. Watch that part again, and then read my corresponding post again.

Can you honestly not figure out how a shady politician like Sidious/Palpatine might be manipulating the TF without it being spelled out to you?

Um, I just posted you a whole bunch of different, radically varying possibilities how it "might"'ve been. Point is, the fact we even have to "figure anything out ourselves" (which, in this case, translates to "guess the script for the scriptwriter"), is the movie's flaw.

Sidious wants to create the Empire somehow, and the TF is possibly interested in money. Maybe. And Sidious is manipulating them. They're evil. We know that. The plot's flaw is that this is ALL we're ever told. That's what RLM addresses.

As in, "such an organization would want something in return for taking such risks", and WE'RE NEVER TOLD WHAT IT IS.

You should seriously consider banning the expression "spell out for" from your vernacular.

Could you honestly not figure out why the TF would want an investigation sent to Naboo by the Senate?

I actually don't even remember if I ever brought that up. Where did I say that?

At any rate, Plinkett says it's a contradiction that VALORUM agrees to answer TF's plight, while he technically should've trusted the testimony of the two Jedi - while the whole point is obviously, that Valorum is weak and powerless, and has to act this way because of blackmailing or whatever. So RLM fucked that up.

TPM has many flaws. These are not them. These are stupid.

If you mean the Jedi robe thing, yes, it's a minor point and is given like 10 seconds in the review.

If you mean the motivations of the main villains and the sense behind the whole plot of the movie, then, um, no, it's actually one of the FUNDAMENTAL flaws of this movie.

It's interesting for those who're interested in RLM's reviews (you know, those that started this 26 page thread) or SW discussion and critique in general.

Before everyone starts complaining about how long the rebuttal is, just because "of a movie" (for the record, if the analysis/critique is thorough enough, a review of any movie can easily take hours and hours, or fill a small book), I'd ask everyone to consider how much time and work is invested in MAKING a movie like this (although obviously not the script in this case :D), and how many hours the average bonus material on a DVD release fills ;)

Count Vendetta... LOL!

With Vader, we knew from the start that he was involved in Luke's father's death, so it wasn't a huge leap from that to what it ended up as.

If anything, I'd say the problems lie somewhere else entirely: If Vader was so notorious for choking his officers, how comes anyone in the Empire, like that hammy atheist guy in ANH, didn't "believe" in it? It didn't even make much sense in the original, but it really stretches SoD further down the line. Then, I wonder how much had "transpired" of the Emperor's own powers... lol. He was designed to be a powerless pawn at that point, though.

In case of Lando, the only problem is that they're stuck in space WITHOUT FUCKING FTL, and Lando just happens to hover around nearby on his gas mine or whatever.

That's a whole other problem, though - the shrinking of the universe, that is, in the LITERAL sense. STAR WARS HAS NO SENSE OF SCALE :D

That makes me wonder, is the SW galaxy anything like our galaxy? It's a fairytale on the far soft end of SciFi, after all, so maybe stars aren't that huge, and they're all more in vicinity of each other? After all, doesn't take them decades or years to travel between stars, right? ;)

The problem with ESB really isn't the "small universe"... however, the movie is kinda full of contrived coincidences. First, the rebels escape the Empire and the Empire fails to track them... ok... Luke finds Yoda on Dagobah... ok... ahm... HOW THEY LANDED IN AN ASTEROID WITH A DINOSAUR IN IT??!! How could it breathe??! Okay.... um.... there were like several Destroyers hovering around, and TIEs and shuttles were available constantly, so how comes the Falcon could hide on the surface of the ship??

Then, some robot smashes C3PO... WHY? The only reason I can think of is that it was supposed to foreshadow bad stuff... that Bespin was a crapsaccharine place or whatever... but... it wasn't really, the Empire had taken over like 2 days ago.

Then, what does Boba Fett does at Jabba's palace? Ah whatever, he's on his payroll I guess... whatever. The entire way they smash up the monsters and escape, having all planned ahead and stuff, makes litte sense if you think about it, as well.

Just one thing I wanted to say about the "small universe" concept - of course, we all know how unrealistic it would be in real life. But it's what fiction is made of - what if some sort of fate, or invisible patterns, help us move around and bump into important things and people by "accident"? When things like these happen in real life, people usually ascribe it to "synchronicity" or treat it as improbabilities.

In fiction, however, a story might make a point out of exploring the concept of fate and mysticism (like Homo Faber), or be an escapist fairy tale that fulfills our desires and simplifies the world (as is the case with Star Wars - it also deals in fate, of course) - it can also be done with humor (Back to the Future, Austin Powers 3; arguably Star Trek XI) for pure fun... because the plausibility of three Biff Tannens walking into a bar and mobbing three McFlies across 3 centuries is absurd, so the audience gets that and enjoys it as a funny spectacle.

Point is, despite the numerous contrivances and plot holes in the OT, I think these "shrinking universe" revelations played well into the "mythical / escapist" zone, despite creating some logical problems - maybe due to the charming execution of it all.

The ones in the PT, maybe with minor exceptions (I don't really care about Padme knowing Palpatine, that was kinda just unnecessary), however, fall strict into the "silly fanwank" category. And no stylistic apologetics are to drag them out of that pit.

Here's an image that I feel is related to and adds a valuable perspective to an equally on-topic image posted by another user, as an insightful response to a important point I made about plot hole metaphors:

It could also help with fan edits.

Herewith, I post a link to help a topic derailed by a horrible, inexcusable "tldr" flame bait (after all, the very thought of someone looking at a long post and then proceeding to "do read" it, is pure high octane nightmare fuel to us tender readers) back on track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVfVqfIN8_c

To my defense, I have to stress that this can hardly count as an "image only" response, since there are hundreds of images in that video so I don't think they feel particularly lonely.

Well, actually, it's still the spoon that's bent, because it's not some kind of image in a dream, it's an actual virtual object that can be observed being bent by others. They don't observe YOU being bent, or "your mind", it's... the spoon.

The only way this could make sense would be by asking the question: "when the telekinetic moves an object through space, does he move the object, or himself?" The answer of course being, if it's the latter, he'd also have to move the whole rest of the universe save for the object in question, otherwise everyone else would merely observe HIM flying through the air, not the object - and suddenly, the whole crap falls apart.

Magneto can fly whenever applying his powers to metal object that are way too heavy for him to move, so he ends up moving himself rather than, say, the statue of liberty. Of course, this clever idea is instantly nullfied when we see Magneto hover on a metal plate he controls himself, but hey - that scene is badass.

Point is, if he only bends himself, he'd better bend the whole universe along with him, as well (like maybe as he does at the end of the film?! when he bends the walls?), save for the spoon - either that, or bend himself and everyone's else's MIND so they perceive the spoon bent, but then, that invokes the question of how they'll end up interacting with the spoon (that actually is still unbent, right?), and either way, changing everyone's perception through the network is still an externalized action, and it's not what the kid said, either.

Then, apparently the writers had originally wanted the Matrix to be a network between human brains (sort of mimicking the "the mind shapes the world" concept, I guess), but executive meddling said no, so instead, the script clearly provides us with a computer program run somewhere on a computer, that people can plug in and interact with. Or change, if so, but still by changing the actual world, not just "themselves".

Next, we gotta question how in a world that's based on code, hacking and security overriding, people can attempt to bend the rules by sheer faith, or power of will. If they've written some hax that allows them to move super fast, or jump across roofs, can't they just program it into their heads, too? Like "Kung Fu"? Why the whole "let go of everything you know" crap?

Fanwank might say it's how the Machines programmed the Matrix so the rebels would have more confidence in themselves - common sense sez, the writers used the whole "virtual reality" plot to shoehorn some Yoda speak into their movie, without really thinking things through. The thought process is as transparent as a force field, and it's not terribly intelligent.

At the end of the day, we can also say "Jedi have to rely on their instincts in faster situations, like a trained athlete relies on his reflexes and trained movement patterns without applying full conscious thought, but use the force to "think" in slower situations, that would cause other people to "stop and think" as well - so it all makes perfect sense!

Except, of course, then the whole "Jedis arrive on Naboo without a plan and want to go to underwater city all of a sudden" plot suddenly loses what little (well, actually, no) sense it might've made otherwise. ;)

On the audio commentary to the Matrix films, the "critics" at one point, point out the seeming contradiction between "don't think you are, KNOW you are", and "your mind makes it real".

Then some dumb twerp kid says "it's not the spoon bending, it's yourself", and then seconds after "there is no spoon". What??!

It's just your typical vague pseudo-philosophical, pseudo-mystical mumbo jumbo, that falls apart under the slightest application of scrutiny, but can certainly be reconciled within itself using some kind of apologetic mental gymnastics.

Point is, I can't think of such "mythology" contradictions in the PT, right now, save for character contradictions (Vader's relation to the Emperor in V vs. in VI; Luke abandoning his training, Luke being fully trained), but at the end of the day, lines like "do it or do not; there is no try" are pretty dumb themselves.

It's just common clichés thrown into the pot to invoke an image of profundity, and when you throw in too many of them, contradictions are bound to ensue.

But hey, yea, the prequels tune that up to 11, so yea - that chase sequence was, indeed, incredibly dumb :D

Some plot holes Plinkett didn't mention:

HOW did the robot not hav a self-destruct? Why wasn't it ordered to fall down somewhere or crash directly into some building, instead of just kinda rubbing on some wall for a few seconds? HOW did Obi Wan expect the robot to lead him to the assassin? WHY did the assassin make herself known by shooting the robot (insead of Obi Wan's face), and then make herself even more obvious by flying away on a speeder with a distinguishable engine sound?

That's just dumb.

doubleofive said:

twooffour said:

doubleofive said:

twooffour said:
Oh holy fuck, my brain just collapsed in itself at the fucking revelation! Seems like my mind couldn't handle the sight of the horrible plot rib, and all critical thought was just sucked into the black hole of nonense... OWEN KNEW C3PO????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, this is one of my huge problems with the prequels. You'd think a droid with a personality like that would stick with you after spending a few years with it.

That and they knew his name :P

Now its my turn for my mind to be blown. Jeez, wow.

 I tell you, man, our brains ain't made for this shit..

:D

doubleofive said:

twooffour said:

Oh holy fuck, my brain just collapsed in itself at the fucking revelation! Seems like my mind couldn't handle the sight of the horrible plot rib, and all critical thought was just sucked into the black hole of nonense... OWEN KNEW C3PO????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, this is one of my huge problems with the prequels. You'd think a droid with a personality like that would stick with you after spending a few years with it.

That and they knew his name :P

Bingowings said:

If they had to go down the rubber route they should have stuck with this guy.

I would never have believed WHO he was until Ady mentioned it.

Heeeheheheheh

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

Aww fuck, I meant "rip"... as in "rift"...

You know, on one hand there's the plot hole... where certain aspects of the plot continuum are just kinda there... and then there's the space rift, that causes all of reality and existence to get sucked into nothingness.

:D

Heh heh, I thought maybe it was a term RLM came up with.

Now that think about it, I think they called the Nexus from STVI a "giant space ribbon from outer space", or something - and since it also kinda looks like a space rip, and a space rib as well, maybe that's why my fingers hit the wrong button :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h06WKYFYdlo

Funny things happen I guess...

Aww fuck, I meant "rip"... as in "rift"...

You know, on one hand there's the plot hole... where certain aspects of the plot continuum are just kinda there... and then there's the space rift, that causes all of reality and existence to get sucked into nothingness.

:D

Oh holy fuck, my brain just collapsed in itself at the fucking revelation! Seems like my mind couldn't handle the sight of the horrible plot rib, and all critical thought was just sucked into the black hole of nonense... OWEN KNEW C3PO????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What???!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't believe I... and I just thought it was kinda silly that Vader didn't recognize his robot... and that the idea was stupid... but holy CHRIST!! At least if he'd left with 'em in EpI... but no....

... should've just given the poor guy a wig and it'd be good.

...

What a load of crap.

Right now the PT is kind of a hybrid of the two, it tries to focus on too many things at once and accomplishes nothing.

Pretty much - maybe Plinkett should've emphasized furthermore how the PT fails to be "Anakin's story" not only because of the bad characterization, and his exaggerated importance in the universe, but also because of how he wasn't established as a proaghtganist from the start. In TPM (the most redundant film in cinematic history - Palpatine could've just waited for Valorum's term to end), he was dramatically he least important character out of the main cast.

I guess that'd tied the theses in the reviews more tightly together, because now you look back at the previous reviews and how he complains about there being no single protagonist, and are left confused a bit. Not that the picture wasn't pretty obvious enough, anyway...

A list of characters/things that should have never been shown in the PT:

C3PO
R2D2

I disagree - maybe shouldn't have been there from the start, and certainly had anything to do with Anakin, but the OT left you wondering what the backstory was, how R2 had belonged to Kenobi (and Leia knew that) and C3 didn't know anything about that because they apparently befriended each other after that.

One's left to think they met each other some time after the whole Empire thing started. So that'd have been neat to explore, but the way it ended up in the movie, C3P0 is a single entire mess - WHY THE HELL WAS HIS MEMORY WIPED?

I love his dialogue in II, though - the few minutes between their landing on Geonosis and the factory sequence were pretty funny. OT style :D

Baby Greedo

Well, the dude got deleted.

Moff Tarkin
The dude looks like Odo.

Tatoonie should not have been in the movie until episode 3 and it should have just been for the moment we see baby Luke delivered there to Uncle Owen and Ant Pheru?

I have to vehemently disagree on that.

The PT completely ruined Owen and Beru by making them into cardboard cutouts that barely know Anakin, and just get the baby at the end because they don't have kids themselves. What a cop-out.

The OT suggests a much more interesting, archetypal story of two brothers, or maybe step brothers, or cousins, of whom one is eager and idealistic and the other prefers the stable quiet life as a simple farmer. One is "the Owen", the other is "the Luke". Would've been also a nice piece of "rhyming" by Luke being a sort of a hybrid between the two, and then choose his father's path.

At the very least, Owen and Beru are hinted to know Vader's backstory in the IV scene, so having them involved more into Anakin's downfall, or at least observing it to some extent, would've been neat.

Could've all played out on Tattoine, too.

The way it ended up, Obi Wan probably spouted off some expository dialog, Owen went like "oh, that dude who once visited us at our farm! the one that looks like Christopher Lambert?", and then they started feeding lies to their adoptive son.

Not a plot hole as such, but yaaaaaaaaaawn. All leads me to suspect that the prequels were either Lucas' attempt at making some sort of profound statement on how history is distorted by hearsay (who knows, maybe his parents told them half truths and BS about his granddads, and then he got a look into their diaries?), or were, indeed, a huge practical joke.

evan1975 said:

twooffour said:

Because seriously... Confused Matthew's reviews, while fun, kinda do suck...

Interesting you mention that because I finally checked his site out yesterday after hearing so much about it.  I tried watching his 2001 video, but the first two parts I viewed was basically him just shouting "This is boring!" over and over and muted video footage.  I admit I didn't finish it, but from what I saw, he seemed unable to examine the movie in a historical context.

 Yea, he said in the review he was going to purposefully neglect the, uh, "historical context" and the whole interpretations thing, and just review it as a film.

Why not. I mean, I admit I haven't seen 2001 entirely so I kinda don't wanna talk about it deeply, but the approach is both interesting and refreshing, and kinda necessary in the sea of profound interpretations.

He also kinda had only positive things to say for the direction and production of the movie...

The problem I have with his Matrix reviews, is that he mostly just doesn't think things through. It's interesting to follow his though process as being that of your average critical viewer who has second thoughts about what he's seeing and starts ranting at the screen with something that makes sense to him at the moment... but then you're quickly past that, the point's fallacies become apparent, and the whole things just gets stupid.

But his points are pretty hit-and-miss, so often, he'll manage to correctly point out a real turd and tear it down by every trick in the book.

He made a giant sloppy mistake in his Revolutions review, where, after mentioning something in relation to Bane committing the EMP sabotage, he then keeps wondering several times "where all the ships are". Ummm.... guess he just edited those parts together and didn't really check?

One example would be how he takes on an in-movie discussion about control, and how the industrial Machines in Zion indirectly control the humans by providing for their needs... then he proceeds to explain how that's not really "control", but rather dependence on one's needs that are dependent on the robots... um yea Matthew, that's kinda the whole point, you have "control" over someone by controlling their needs. At least, that's one of the meanings of "control", the other being "controlling where your car drives".

But on the other hand, he always aims at the right direction because, at the end of the day, all of that stuff is just pretentious babble thrown at the script, and the plot is a disjointed mess, so thinking that discussion about control to the end almost seems unnecessary in order to tear down that scene - in that sense, watching his reviews still provides one with the pleasure of being pointed out some major turds in the film, even if the actual commentary on them isn't always pure brilliance. If you take it with a grain of salt, in the sense of "ah whatever, this hairsplitting ain't gonna save the damn movie", it kinda works :)

PS: Sorry for my chaotic writing style right now, I kinda need to get to sleep badly...

Ghostbusters said:

I was a little disappointed with RedLetterMedia's coverage of ROTS. He did a good job but he generalized too many things that I was hoping he would elaborate on like he did in episodes II and I. I was dying waiting to see what he would say about Darth Vader saying Noooooooo!!!! But he just jumps right past it with no comment at all. Maybe he felt like there was enough comments on that already. I think he does speak to the audience that keeps up on the prequel hating discussion and tries to add things that he feels hasn't been discussed heavily yet.

I see what you mean - ultimately, I remember being somewhat disappointed at the end, too, but if I'm honest to myself, I was pretty much hoping for an epic 3 hour takedown that would cover EVERYTHING... not just the whole ROTS movie, or prequel plot... but EVERYTHING! :D

But yea, although there are, of course, exceptions everywhere, he does seem to follow the pattern of trying to focus on the less obvious things that aren't on the number 1 complaint list.

Like in I he almost completely left out complaints about Jar Jar's personality, and didn't mention how stupid the Neimoidians were, or anything about the annoying podrace commentator, Boss Nass, everything that basically ruined the movie's tone. Like "wait, hold on guys, it gets better!"

In the Clones review, he didn't particularly dwell on how we had no idea where the Separatists came from or who Sifo-Dyas was, or WTF Boba Fett (;) is doing all over the place, because those were were like the most obvious WTF moments of the film - so he just kinda glossed over those in a dickish manner, making derisive jokes about the plot, and left the details over to the ordinary mortal critics watching the review.

It's like he's not even giving those turds enough respect / recognition to bother with them.

Also love what he did with order whaaaaaaaat in the latest one... LOL! At first, I was kinda pissed he decided not to get into it and hoped he'd do it later... when the review was over, it suddenly hit me :D

Also didn't bother with the inane dialogue during the climactic duel - everyone's already done all the "Sith deals in absolutes"s and "you have done that yourself"s and "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil"s to death, so he's just kinda "eeeehh... they exchange some boring pointless dialog, then blah, then we come to the ending.. *yaaaawn*".

Fucking brilliant, nothing to add to that :D

As for the Noooooo!, they already did a "documentary" on "The United States of Noooooo!" a while ago, it's on their website - it included the team remembering how they burst into laughter during the first viewing, inane reenactments of the scene by themselves and random pedestrians, some ytmnd spoofs... kinda made sense they'd just tenderly played around all that in the actual review.

The Cinema Snob used that trick a couple of times (with Troll 2, and Satan's School for Girls) - omitted the infamous, cheesy scream shot, or any comments about it, only to put it at the very end as a surprise. It works :)

I myself am not sure what to think of it... I mean, the nooo-oooooo sounds so damn inane, it's like they were TRYING to play that cliché with as much silliness as possible. Even the German dub doesn't sound half as stupid.

In contrast to the previous two episodes, which just had trippy, childish "fun" stuff and some lame puns in them, EpIII often ventures into pure Ham and Cheese territory, in a strange mix between serious/epic and silly that I actually find very well done (if it's intentional - if not, still pretty entertaining).

General Grievance, creepy and menacing on one hand, and utterly hilarious on the other. The timing of his coughs is so dead-on in inducing the most inane and silly effect possible, it feels like it was put in there with surgical precision (although, so is Jar Jar's speech manner, if I think about it...).

The Emperor constantly juggles between creepy and menacing, deliciously eeeeevil and downright hilarious.

The creepy robots with the capes look like nightmare fuel at first, then quickly deconstruct themselves with silly slapstick.

Then, the wonderfully epic montage of Vader's reconstruction, making it look like at least the prequel seris is gonna be crowned by a moment of sheer awesomeness... and then... and then.... NOOO-OOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I dunno man... I sometimes think Lucas was intentionally razzing the audience with all that :)