twooffour

Bingowings said:

In his idea Anakin was a good friend to Ben and generally the nice guy still accurately remembered as heroic, until he used the seductive power of the Dark Side to defeat Ben's other apprentice (the child murdering scumbag).

It's not what I would do, it doesn't glue back on any shattered plot points (it makes Anakin a more redeemable character and someone you might care more about before he turned bad) but it doesn't contradict anything we know either.

It's a serving suggestion.

It might not be to your taste but you don't have to scream at the waiter.

 

Alright then, seems like you're on brickwall mode today... is there ANY way to get through to you? Please?
It's so, so simple...

His idea... doesn't change anything. Do you get that?
He thinks he's improving a major plot hole (that everyone should know about Anakin-Vader and be wary of Luke), but he's thought up this plot hole, and makes the story into WHAT IT ALREADY IS.

Okay, I'll break this down for you for the last time, real simple:

-Real story: Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil and became Darth Vader at some point; no one knows about that.

-The real story in his mind: Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil and became Darth Vader; everyone seems to know, which sucks and makes no sense.

-His "improvement": Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil by killing Darth Vader and assuming his identity; no one knows about that.

-Real story: Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil and became Darth Vader at some point; no one knows about that.

???


Please... this has nothing to do with my "taste"; his solution is nonsensical, it doesn't solve anything he claims to be solving, and is based on getting the FACTS from the movies wrong.

In his idea Anakin was a good friend to Ben and generally the nice guy still accurately remembered as heroic

until he used the seductive power of the Dark Side to defeat Ben's other apprentice (the child murdering scumbag)

And why does it have to be Darth Vader, and not some other prick?
Why this convoluted "first Vader was Vader, but then Anakin killed him and became Vader" poppycock?

Also may I remind you, we're talking about rewriting ROTJ here. No one ever said anything about child murdering in ROTJ.

it makes Anakin a more redeemable character and someone you might care more about before he turned bad

How does making Anakin turn to the dark side by defeating Vader, make him a more redeemable character than by killing some other bad guy?
ROTJ doesn't say how he turned, right?

but it doesn't contradict anything we know either.

Bingowings said:

The it was doomed to fail because of the anticipation argument would only work if A) the films were really good and B) if they flopped at the box office.

The films were genuinely pants and they made and continue to make tons of cash.

This.

The pressure to have awesome fast effects and fights worthy of the Second Coming, is no excuse for making the story so incoherent, and the characters so bland and painful.
I don't think anyone would really bitch about this or that action scene being over-the-top, or unnecessary to the plot, if the basics - a well-structured storyline and interesting, well-acted and genuine characters - were right.

Look at the Matrix - did anyone bitch about the Neo-Smith duel being pointless, because Neo should've known that he can respawn, and should be running for his ass?
No, because that movie had good, believable characters and a captivating protagonist arc that made the viewer feel with the main character. So maybe he was a bit over-confident? Who cares, this is AWESOME!

Now skip to Reloaded - everyone starts bitching about how pointless it was for Neo to fight 50 CGI Smiths and then fly off.
Why? Because Neo was basically just a cardboard cutout the whole movie, it was boring (even if stylish) and the pointlessness of the scene was the more obvious.
[Even though it wasn't completely pointless, as it's basically Neo facing a new, worthy enemy, and learning that he can't beat this one at the end.]


So if Lucas wanted to pander to the fanboys screaming for effects and lightsabers, but not the part of his audience that appreciated Star Wars for being the good movies they were, I'm afraid it IS his fault.

:)

Also it affects the way people treat Luke. If it was common knowledge that Anakin had turned to the dark side and become a sith (and everyone would have found out especially amongst the rebels) then they would be very wary of Luke. However if Anakin is still remembered as a great hero of the old republic then they would be far more welcoming to Luke.

Yes.. and that's how it ALREADY IS.

He's not changing a "everyone should be wary of Luke but isn't" plot into "now under my rewrite, no one actually knows" - ALREADY no one knows, and he's being redundant.

How hard is that to grasp?

Bingowings said:

but that doesn't have any impact on his idea.

Nope; sorry; it does.

Also everyone seems to remember Anakin as a great hero not the child murdering scumbag he actually is.

That's because no one in the rebellion knows?

My solution is this:

[...]

When Luke questions him about it he can truthfully say that Anakin was a great jedi and a great friend.

No, because in his rewrite, Anakin still falls to the dark side and duels against Ben... and becomes Darth Vader... in secret... just like in the actual storyline.

Anakin is still remembered as a great hero by the general public. Only Ben knows the truth that Vader is Anakin.

Yes, that's the actual storyline of the movie.


See it now?

Bingowings said:

It's an aspect of the story outside the film that I grew up with waiting for ESB between 1977 and 1980 (like knowing Vader needed the suit because of fighting Ben near a Volcano).

So having Anakin as a famous Jedi hero is something that was planted in my mind from an early age and remained there until the PT screwed it up.

Well, how so?
He WAS a famous Jedi hero until he fell, right? Sure, a douche, but did everyone in the galaxy know that?
A lot of famous artists, or generals or whatever, were douches in private, but the public generally doesn't mind.

Not to say that the prequels DIDN'T ruin a lot, but I don't think they ruined the continuity on this one. I mean, they got those videotapes of him killing babies, but then, as Plinkett points out - they could've taken this to the court, but didn't. So did the galaxy really learn about it?


But anyway, that's not the argument. It's not that Anakin was a well-known fighter pilot. It's that according to DarthJarJAr, EVERYONE IN THE REBELLION KNOWS HE BECAME DARTH VADER.
So did you have that in mind when gasping at the ESB reveal, eh? Eh?

And that's the problem with the his rewrite - it's there to solve a problem that isn't there in the first place, and is full or redundant redundancy itself.
"How do we make people keep Anakin in good memory? Everyone knows he's Vader, after all! Well, let's make Anakin assume Vader's identity after faling to the dark side!"
"No one knew about his turn, it already happened in secret".
"... WHY CONVOLUTED LOL??!1"

And I find it trying sometimes... irritating, time-consuming.. annoying... when they don't listen. ;)

darth_ender said:

I don't usually try to create more "contention," but I can't help but observe that there are certain individuals who really seem to always be "at the scene" whenever there is an argument.  I won't mention anyone "by name," but I think we already KNOW who they are.

No.

TV's Frink said:

Ha-ha, a predictably awesome post.

Well, thank you.




The sad thing, you probably won't learn anything from it.
You actually didn't know that quotation marks can be used for dissociation, and you probably still don't. Oh well.

Bingowings said:

DarthJarJar said:

twooffour said:

LOL

So your convoluted scheme achieves what exactly?
Instead of Anakin being the fallen Jedi who becomes Darth Vader... he's the fallen Jedi who defeated Darth Vader and assumed his name? What?

Convoluted eh? Not like the plot of Eps 1, 2 and 3 which are incredibly complex and make NO SENSE at all (copyright redlettermedia :)).  I thought this was a forum for how we would have done ROTJ differently so this was MY opinion. Admittedly it diverged a bit off topic with the turn of Anakin but that is important for ROTJ. 

Don't listen to him it's an interesting re-jig.

And it ties in with the long form of the Biggs deleted scene where Red Leader remembers Luke's father (not to mention many a Marvel comic pre-1980).

Where? Which? It's in none of the "well-known" ones (the bar, the farewell, at the rebel base), so it must be OBSCURE.

At any rate, it's a DELETED scene. It's deleted. It doesn't have to be explained away by any "rewrites" - just keep the scene out of the movie!

And anyways, Biggs didn't say anything about Luke's father becoming Darth Vader, right? I mean, they hadn't even thought that up during ANH (where Biggs died, you know), so he probably just... mentioned Skywalker Senior and what an awesome guy he was?


Because according to DarthJarJar, everyone in the rebellion knew about Anakin/Darth Vader, but didn't tell Luke (based on the fact that he was surprised to learn about it).
But hey, don't listen to me... don't listen to reason, or apply scrutiny... it's an interesting "re-jig", bro!

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

1. And there again you attempt a silly parody by putting random words in quotes and capitals.
I only use them when it makes sense to do so.

twooffour said:

So the "problem" you're trying to "solve" here, is non-existent.

 

Yes, that's quotes of dissociation.

It's not a true problem, and there is nothing to solve.
However, DarthJarJar mentioned a problem that he attempted to solve.

So I'm referring to his STATEMENTS (emphasis on teh important) that I'm DISSOCIATING (... since you wouldn't get it otherwise) myself from.

Such dissociation may or may not carry a portion of sarcasm, i.e. mocking the use of said expressions while mentioning them (or using them mockingly), which is the case here.
Also look up "use-mention error" on the interwebs, and how quotation marks are often used LESS THAN THEY SHOULD.
______

Oh boy, Frink... you don't even know the basics, and are attempting to parody? Friedberg & Seltzer anyone?

You know, like the smartass kid that tries to make fun of adult conversations.
"Hahaha, why you talking about "left" and "right" (pronounced with a silly OTT expression typical for 8 year olds) all the time, I mean lol? Here's my left side and here's my right side, and the Earth is round as I've learned yesterday! What does this have to do with countries?"
Adults: "........"
Kid: "Oh"

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :D

"We'sa free"... god... I recently had a nightmare in which this line was actually included in the movie...

DarthJarJar said:

twooffour said:

LOL

So your convoluted scheme achieves what exactly?
Instead of Anakin being the fallen Jedi who becomes Darth Vader... he's the fallen Jedi who defeated Darth Vader and assumed his name? What?

Convoluted eh? Not like the plot of Eps 1, 2 and 3 which are incredibly complex and make NO SENSE at all (copyright redlettermedia :)).  I thought this was a forum for how we would have done ROTJ differently so this was MY opinion. Admittedly it diverged a bit off topic with the turn of Anakin but that is important for ROTJ. 

So should I have said that your idea was as bad as the prequels? ;)

How about you address the fact that no one in the OT knew about Anakin-Vader, hence your entire solution becomes pointless?

CP3S said:

twooffour said:

2. Haven't I shown a couple of weeks ago that I have far less of a grasp on how ridiculous I come off sounding almost all of the time than lots of other people on this board? Ask CP3S, he knows.

Yep. True story!

And he uses super awesome words like "butthurt" and "FAIL" to an excess, which makes him uber cool!!!!1 One of the coolest angry little middle schoolers on the internets, in fact.

Well I'm neither angry nor a middle-schooler, so that's two ;)

But hey, thanks for agreeing where it counts :p

none said:

I just recently finished taking a course, after the final class a bunch of us went out for a celebratory drink.  So everyone shares a little about their lives and eventually I can't help but mention the shit i'm involved in being investigatory into this SW thing.  A literal spit take from one of the group, and that's fine but it's that look afterwards like, 'you complete waste of existence', that comes to their face.  Which just drills home how off the map we really are here.

No, THEY are off the map, not you.
For being complete morons.

If you can go out for a drink for many hours (as well as watch sports or whatever) and not be a waste of existence, then you can do stuff with SW and be none the worse.
I'm guessing they've got some amount of insecurity about their own hobbies, so it figures.

CP3S said:

Probably the internet's, it is official now (and we must accept) that twofortwo is almost always right.

Well that's quite a bullshit reason, isn't it? Probably because you were the one to dream it up ;)

ray_afraid said:

twooffour said:

that guy probably shouldn't teach his "kids" how to write letters :p

What does this mean?

Look at his... writing style? Maybe?

Ah, sorry, now I see it :D

To divert 20% of my blame, that guy probably shouldn't teach his "kids" how to write letters :p

dark_jedi said:

the DVD's & BD's are perfect

What.

greenpenguino said:

Kenkraly2007 said:

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/WIN

Well that's the problem, where in the movie(s) does it say that everyone knew what exactly happened to Anakin?

You may think that it SHOULD be this way, because I mean he was a big pilot and all, but the fact that Luke had worked with the rebels for a long time and yet no one told him, is actually a pretty good indication that no one knew Anakin had turned to the dark side.
Leia had been leading the rebels with Vader in the background for how long before IV? How big was her surprise that Vader was Luke's father?

So the "problem" you're trying to "solve" here, is non-existent.
The turn probably happened in secret, and no one in the OT knew, aside from Ben, the Emperor, and maybe some FEW Imperials (but doubtfully).



Having that said, in case you think it's way too suspicious that Anakin just disappeared and Vader appeared, there is still a better alternative:

Vader still killed Anakin, but he's Luke's father. Luke's been taken away from Vader and adopted by Anakin.
A bit like in the Wolverine intro.

DarthJarJar said:

A great problem in ROTJ  and the OT is the handling of the fact that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. Ben's from 'a certain point of view' argument is weak. Also everyone seems to remember Anakin as a great hero not the child murdering scumbag he actually is.

My solution is this:

Darth Vader is Obi wan's apprentice.  He is called Darth Vader since that is his name (Darth is not a title for sith lords). Anakin is a full jedi knight and a hero of the republic.

Darth Vader is tempted by the emperor and the dark side and eventually becomes a sith. He starts helping the emperor to hunt down and destroy the jedi. Ben and Anakin lead the war against the emperor and vader. This war culminates in a duel between Ben and Anakin vs Vader overseen by the emperor. Vader is winning and all will be lost. The galaxy will fall into darkness and also Padme (and his unborn children will die).

In desperation Anakin is tempted to use the dark side to kill Vader. He does this but is unable to come back to the light. Ben realises that Anakin is lost and will now replace Vader as the emperors new henchman.

The emperor orders Anakin to kill Ben and they duel. Ben wins the fight and flees but Anakin is hideously disfigured. The emperor does not wish the public to know that his champion (Vader) has been defeated so he has Anakin suited up and calls him Darth Vader. No one can see his face, so no one will ever know. The emperor will let it be known that Vader killed Anakin and forced Ben to flee. He will say that Vader was hideously disfigured by the cowardly jedi and must now wear a mask in order to stay alive.

This satisfies the following continuity problems.

Darth Vader was a pupil of Obi Wan who turned to the dark side.

Anakin was a full jedi, not a padawan.

Darth Vader kills Anakin. Well not quite, but that is what the general public think. Only Ben knows the truth. When Luke questions him about it he can truthfully say that Anakin was a great jedi and a great friend. He wanted to shield Luke from the fact that Anakin turned to the dark side in an attempt to defeat the real Darth Vader).

Anakin is still remembered as a great hero by the general public. Only Ben knows the truth that Vader is Anakin.

The real Darth Vader (not Anakin) can kill the younglings although I would not have that scene in at all.

 

LOL

First of all, this is ROTJ rewrite, not ROTS.
In ROTJ, certainly no one ever implied that Anakin was somehow a big legend known to everyone, or that his fall was in everyone's mouth - Luke had no clue, and Ben had to tell him that he'd fought in the clone wars. For all we know, it could've happened in secret just as in your scenario.

So your convoluted scheme achieves what exactly?
Instead of Anakin being the fallen Jedi who becomes Darth Vader... he's the fallen Jedi who defeated Darth Vader and assumed his name? What?

And oh, Anakin WAS Ben's apprentice for all we know. Why is he supposed to be a "full Jedi"?

Seriously, I've read me some really good suggestions about rewriting the prequel backstory, or removing the "I am your father" twist (both on here and on the RLM forums), but this one is just weird.

Well I still don't know whether it's my or the internet's fault ;)

Is that the pedo?

(I just found the name funny, lol)

And so...



... I suck because I don't know how to circumvent that?