thejediknighthusezni

CP3S said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

        Atheists use multiverse arguments to escape from a creator God over this particular cosmos.  I wonder whether it instead supports theism much more readily.  Might not one among these infinite realms have formed in such a way that matter and energy could self organize into a fantastically powerful single entity? All that remains would be a means to communicate and influence the other realms.

"Atheists" don't have to use multiverse arguments to "escape" from a creator God.

I feel like this argument, which I have heard from many theists in one form or another, is a bit of a step back. Initially they argue that the universe happening by random chance is so insanely improbable, you have to be really putting on the blinders in order to ignore the fact that it just couldn't happen without an all powerful designer and creator. Then when you ask them where this all powerful designer and creator might have come from, they make the argument that if atheists believe the universe could have happened by random chance, then surely it is a possibility that God happened by random chance... It is rather circular. 

I feel like the probability of a single celled organism happening by random chance is a lot more probable than a omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent entity with the power to create anything it wants happening by random chance.

 

Creationist have a hard time with the concept of construction from the bottom up, and tend to make their arguments from the top down. The watch in the shoe box analogy is a good example of this. The analogy goes that a universe by random chance is as likely as taking a shoe box, tossing all the random disconnected pieces of a fob watch in it, vigorously shaking it up, and opening the box to find a fully functioning watch telling the correct time down to the second. Only the argument goes that this is much more likely than a universe from nothing, since all the parts for the watch were already present and in the box.

This way of thinking is looking at the end product, marveling at it, and disregarding the process that went into making it what it is now. The watch also evolved over time. Someone didn't just come up with the idea, cut some gears, and throw the thing together overnight. The clockwork developed over a period of time, and someone eventually figured out they could shrink it down to a pocket size unit. And even before clockwork was thought of, the development process spanned and even greater period of time, we had to develop our concept of time, of days, hours, minutes, and seconds, we had to discover we could extract minerals and melt down and shape metals, and we had to discover how to make glass and how we could blow it into different shapes.

We have a really complex and intricate world today, but it wasn't always that way, it took a very long period of time, growing from something very simple into things more complex, developing through trial and error into what worked, with the rejects and things that didn't work failing and perishing, and the things that worked surviving and developing further.

You get a very different perspective when you look at a magnificent skyscraper from the top down (as a whole), this amazing complex and intricate structure; than you do when you look at it from the bottom up, considering all the development and discovery it took to make every single piece of material, from the simple to the advanced, including ideas, that were used in its construction.

      ^I would think that any entity who has a conception of mercy and decency that is anything like the human kind would be willing to offer some sort of an escape to the little creatures under it's power who are found worthy.

       What does God get (aside from the spaceship;) from the worship and praise?

        Scriptural and Natural Revelations are targeted at HUMANS. They are not meant for wombats or seagulls or the nibjiks of galaxy 374. It is there to strike a chord within and guide HUMANS. The wombat revelations would probably be quite different.

        Perhaps the question "What does God get from the worship?" is exactly 180 degrees out of phase. Perhaps the important question is "What do humans get from learning to worship God?" Perhaps it is what humans gain from worship that permits God to logicaly and justly spare us.

Bingowings said:

Why would a mosquito see the Abdominal Dr Vibes as anything less than food?

Why should I even concern myself with this God fellow if His milieu is so conceptually alien to my own? What's the scripture for if only the attuned can fathom it (surely they don't need to fathom it if they are already attuned)?

I can get my head around the notion that the grand cosmic project is a work in progress and that trillions have to suffer in ways which make no sense and seem cruel from within the mechanism to serve an ultimate goal that is perfection.

But that's not what scripture is saying.

It's saying the universe was made in six stages, It's finished. God's the boss and if you don't start feeling sorry about playing with your penises and stop it in the name of an incarnation of Himself He allowed to be nailed to a tree and die for three days you will suffer forever.

Meanwhile you faithful chosen people go over their and kill those male children and rape those women.

If God is all powerful and all knowing, all possible universes are possible to him and yet he picked the one where he knows I will be born and due to free will take qualitative umbrage at the biblical account of himself and be damned.

He made me with hell in mind.

And I'm supposed to like this chap? 

What's more he is supposed to be the same person as Jesus who is by almost every account a likable and approachable superhero with compassion, who feels empathy with the downtrodden, the sick and the bereaved.

It makes more sense to me that they aren't the same person or if they are, the act of incarnation has changed God in ways He hadn't foreseen.

If God can change he isn't always perfect.

Either the Tyrant God is perfect and the gentle Jesus is a corruption of his true self or Jesus is an upgrade Which means the scripture relating to God Mk1 needs to be re-worked.

But the acts of his fully human group of followers don't match with Jesus either. They sound more like devotees of God Mk1.

You can understand where the Gnostics got their groove from. The OT God sounds like a faker, an insecure God wannabe. A Devil (powerful but evil).

Where as Jesus sounds like a representative of a nicer God who doesn't want anyone raped but has interceded as much as he can (Good but limited).

i can see myself being convinced by a Good but limited God. I might thank him for the opportunity of life and forgive him the unavoidable crapness of some of life (mortality for example).

But the the Tyrant God He can just swivel.

     "...from my perspective" sums up the misunderstanding.

    The sad truth is, with regard to these matters, we pitiful little creatures DON'T HAVE ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CALLED A PERSPECTIVE!!! We don't even count as mosquitos in camparison to a surgeon.

     Even so, the unattuned can gain the knowledge they require. They just have to work harder for it (see The Apostle Thomas.)

     The Universe is far from finished. Scripture tells us that it is groaning. The six stages were the initial creation.

     "With great power comes great responsibility." Humans expect their high chiefs to judge and set the wrongs right. God is the only one who can fulfill that need. "Give every man as he deserves and who would scape whipping?" What if the creator doesn't want to give all of his creations what they deserve? How could he escape the imperative to condemn according to human logic (Man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man.) Jesus is that way out.

       Do you know what would happen to those male children or women? Would they die in the desert or be taken by men who would give them worse treatment? What would happen to the nation that doesn't show that they mean business according to the standard of the time? Doesn't perceived weakness invariably encourage aggressors and lead to even more war and suffering? Do you know what happens to a society that plays too much with it's penises in unnatural ways? What happens if men stop caring enough about the next generation? Tear down and destroy the people who do care? History indicates it might be very bad. It might be the thing that tips the balance and drags us to totalitarianism.

       All Universes are possible? What if this universe is Logically necessary to God's knowledge? The Forger problem might have some application. If a forgery is so convincing that there is no way to distinguish it from the original, is there any meaningful distinction? What if our universe IS a part of the perfect knowledge of God? It IS God knowing. People complain that God doesn't need to put us through this because he already knows the outcome. But if the knowledge is so complete and perfect that it is indistinguishable from the history of our universe, his knowledge could BE the history of our U. There would be no need to "Do it again in reality". It may be our reality. We are knowledge in the mind of God. 

      God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same entity viewed from different human perspectives at different points in time. God doesn't change. Humanity changes. The way you relate to a small child in the past will be quite different from the way you relate to a spouse today or that same child in the future. We can judge human conduct to some degree, but we don't have the most minute part of the information necessary to judge our creator.

      A Surgeon does radical, invasive, harmful, violative things to his patient. Is it therefore "evil"?

      These human jackals who come in the name of "compassion" are most often horrifying tyrants. Depravity is a cruel sort of tyranny. Why should you prefer their tyranny? 

       ^The claims of human serial killers are suspect by any standards. God is a different matter.

       People love to complain (petulantly;) about some of the orders and endorsements from God found in the other OT.

       To me, these are the easiest to dismiss arguments in Theonomy.

       It's about infinitely more ridiculous than watching a little mosquito accuse an abdominal surgeon of wrongly performing an "unnecessary" appendectomy. The mosquito can't even begin to properly conceive of the problem, much less draw any conclusions about it.   

       God sees past present and future at the same time. The Deity knows the consequences of failing to deliver the hard orders.

       We have no idea of what would happen if a people in ancient times could with impugnity refuse to rest and reflect on heavenly ways, taunt prophets, or allow pagan enemies to escape. 

Bingowings said:

Go on Warb.

Explain to me how one of hundreds of thousands of human beings nailed up by the Romans in anyway makes my life or the life of anyone else who lived later any better than it was if it hadn't happened.

Taking as a given that Jesus existed, was the son of God and died in that fashion.

What does dying for our sins actually mean?

I promise I will not mock you just explain it.

If it's something I can't understand because I'm not the God of the Bible myself, why should this act in any way impress me?

    Traditions and doctrines of men, confusions, and the nature of the message itself prevent communication of these concepts.

    The Bible is meant to work on the subconcious much of the time. It's targeted at "God's people" who are more "atuned" to the wavelength on an emotional and spiritual level.

    I find it much easier to think of these things in a stark and "naturally" human sort of way.

    Suppose you break into someone's home and steal and destroy and abuse the residents in ways that violate what is generally understood to be the Law. You are caught and brought before the Chief Magistrate. Your case is hopeless. The Judge has every authority and reason to send you up. He can have you executed if you are a habitual offender.

    Now suppose that this Chief Magistrate declares that, because you have done these things, he is going to take your innocent and beloved spouse or child or dearest friend and torture and murder that person in the most horrible way for YOUR crimes.

     Would you still believe that this Magistrate, who is otherwise responsible for enforcing the Law and convicting the evil doers, is still the one to pass judgement over you?

     God is the only one who can pass final judgement at your death. God has presented us with a way for him to withdraw as judge.

     But there is a catch. The one who is agonizingly tormented and murdered must truly be your dear loved one and friend. If you petulantly ignore this person and violate the principals the victim holds dear, you cannot claim the victim as your greatest friend.

     It doesn't matter how many others in history have suffered or if their individual sufferings might have been even worse. They are not your most beloved friend.

     God could have tortured Jesus for months or years. It was for an afternoon to fulfill many things in the correct way.

       The idea behind the tux is to make men as indifferent from one another as possible. They all wear a uniform so that no one will notice their clothing. That way, all attention is focused on the women and their spectaclular attire.

       But yeah, I think there is room for two or three odd-balls.