Seemed like a galaxy-wide problem in the morning, before running out the door. Went for galactic solution.
Seemed like a galaxy-wide problem in the morning, before running out the door. Went for galactic solution.
IMO, Fett shouldn't be in the film at all (and in my cut he isn't). He's a bounty hunter, he should be off hunting bounties.
I'm just having fun with alternate lines of reasoning. Those continuity problems can be solved with effort.
I don't think Fett is required in ROTJ. I could enjoy an edit without him.
I don't know if you're familiar with ROTJ Fan-o-matic (if not, check it out on youtube) but one of the many excellent ideas was to have Boba Fett given the job of telling the Rebellion about the DS2, including the lie about it not being operational, rather than these Bothans, of whom the audience knows nothing and are never heard about again. Makes sense - aside from giving the Fett something to do, it also means Fett isn't at Jabba's palace and spares us the hideousness of his death scene.
The double dealer unbeknownst is a great concept . There might be a continuity problem, however. Luke and Leia made it back to the fleet and they were slightly annoyed with Fett.
You got me thinking it would be fun to have Fett leading the Bothans in Slave I . He could break-off. Then we could see a hologram of Jabba and his protocol droid calling him for a mission. Instead, we could see Sidious or Vader telling him Skywalker would try to rescue Captian Solo. I don't know how it could work. It would require a very rad edit.
In the palace, Fett is there for a little extra menace. In the barge fight, Fett's there for the same reason Lando is there. Han had his reasons. He had pressing personal business. He might have wanted to get out of the way of the others. But Han was trying to leave the group every time they turned around. By reminding us that Han comes through in the end, and showing us that his actions are not governed by spite, They showed us why the rebels would trust him with their most difficult missions.
Could Fett just bounce off the barge and cut away before he falls in? A Dreyfuss in 'JAWS' uncertainty? Everyone imagines their own favorite fate for Fett?
The wild Ewoks v Empire stuff is fantastic! :)
Just putting this link out their for those interested.
This site had tons and tons of pictures from everything star wars related. Very nicely done.
Thanks for the link :)
After looking it over, I was reminded that there are three for ESB. destruction, jump away, and fate unknown. We might see the rebel ship and SD pass off-screen, leaving the viewers uncertain and haunted. Then the probe launch. I'm impressed by the quiet, ominous tone those shots create. I'd like to see two such sequences in ESB to foreshadow the "Fate Unknown" conclusion. A similar foreshadowing in AOTC might lead to the same sense in ROTS. If the sabre construction shot is in good condition, it might be used to create a sense of foreboding. The ROTJ star battle is for some action and for creating a sense of real peril.
To me, these star battles are bound up with their respective crawls. Each scroll seems like it is the same sort of thing in passing. Read them carefully, and they each have a unique character. 4:A ship captured 5:A ship's fate unknown 6:A ship destroyed 1:A ship given passage 2:A ship rescued 3:An immense battle. The idea is to make each seem unique. Now I wonder if each battle should correspond to it's position in it's trilogy.
I have enjoyed these star battles. I wanted to give a definitive account of my ideas for them. I'm sure that my 1am, clipped presentation style doesn't convey that very well. :)
I 100% agree with you, Bingowings.
(8E 38) ;)
^ In the spirit of tossing everything out for passing consideration, I thought I'd make good on my promise.
First, there was something left hanging. I hope we all agree that the Luke-Leia lip-action we have now in ESB is... shall we say..."Adequate?";-\ I wrote "embrace" for a hug to emphasize the emotion in the moment.
I wanted Lucas and Co. to SINGLE-MINDEDLY carry forward the character relationships in ANH. At EVERY opportunity and at the expense of EVERY non-vital element. I know that sort of thing bankrupted LUCASFILM in '77- but there it is.
Actually, my thoughts were not originally intended for fan-editing. In the summer of '83, my teen-aged brain formulated: 1.7 billion box office- 65 million production cost= Inevitable trilogy remake. This filled me with a determination to identify and find corrections for every flaw in the trilogy that was not of a more technical (Fx, jump cuts, etc...) nature. Also, I tried to think of anything that might be an improvement (I wound up developing a very different treatment for ROTJ.) In 20 or 30 years, I would make certain the remake screen-writers received my notes. I lost my notes many moons ago.
Now, I'm trying to pull those thoughts that might have application to fan-editing out of my rusty memory banks.
Anyway, my last thought for a more conventional edit of ESB is also my first thought for ROTJ.
It's forever and a day before we see any real action in ROTJ. What if, after the crawl, we see a fleeing Bothan spy ship being attacked by a SD? We could see a transmission dish turn and hear some SW transmission noises before the Bothans are destroyed. There could be Endor and the DS far in the background. Vader's SD might be there, also. (Cut to Luke building the sabre?) The crawl could be altered to note the Bothan struggle.
For ESB, the crawl could state that the imperial fleet is hunting ships as well as launching probes. We could see a ship under attack by a SD. It is destroyed or jumps away. in the far background might be the SD that launches the probes. The sequence would be tied musically to the crawl and settle us down for the probe launch so it won't interfere with the second act/movement mood. It wouldn't be forever before the esb in ESB.
Also, for TPM, the consular ship might come under mistaken attack by a droid ship (From AOTC or ROTS?) and cuts from approach and destruction might be altered to show response to the attack. This could create a sense of everything being obscure and uncertain.
For AOTC, The crawl could state that the separatists are trying to intercept senators. We could see the senator's ship drop out of hyperspace with a separatist ship dropping out immediately behind it. A ship loyal to the Republic might force the enemy ship to break-off the attack on the senator. The platform "Everything seems alright." lines could be cut. This would create a sense of siege and forshadow the ROTS opening.
In this way, a star battle could become as much a part of the beginning of a SW episode as the logo and crawl.
Waddya think? Have at it (All are welcome for a better edit ;)
LOL.. Heresy? Blasphemy? What is ESB? some kind of religion or God? Please...
All ideas are welcome. Maybe not for ESB:R but for any other edits in the future. The vision of perfectness can be different from person to person. I support radical edits :)
Lets listen them to ESB and ROTJ Wishlist
I read some posts by and about Adywan. Seemed to indicate he was considering some more aggressive edits than anything in ANH:R. In retrospect, it might all have been speculation about ROTJ (Which desperately needs very aggressive edits.)
My post was unclear. I didn't mean 2 actual minutes, I meant action movie compressed impression of time. Sorry. I clocked it, and it didn't seem disruptive to me. I think a clever editor could work it out.
I expected a princess. I got a military commander. Didn't ring 100% right with me. Everything should be perfect in ESB. Willing to consider anything that addresses that, as long as it improves pace, tension etc...
I love every second in ANH. Adywan produces ANH:R. If everyone on the planet loves every second of ESB, and an editor comes up with a change, no matter how tame or more "radical" than the element it replaces, is there any other question than "Does it improve?" I think it's like beauty, more objective than subjective. I think that makes consensus possible- If everyone will put aside thoughts like "Have to maintain what Kersh did." You all have what kersh did. Check your bonus discs.
There are things Kersh didn't do. Leia doesn't say one word to Luke on Hoth. Except for the mash kiss directed at Han, Leia has no interaction with the guy she's supposed to dearly love. Luke is going out to fight walkers and there is no embrace in a passage, no words of caring, no fearful wince when Luke's name is called on a receiver in the C.C. - no indication she even knows Luke still exists. What was more important than any of that? From my first viewing it didn't feel right. Good thing the story was such a downer in the end. Nothing felt right.
But ESB is truly a masterpiece that moved me profoundly as a kid. Kersh is truly brilliant.
For all that bruhaha. I only have four points for ESB (5, if you count having Luke run into a TIE fighter or anything before the Imperials...um...leave.)
I'll take it to wishlists. I'll post my ROTJ list too. Then you can all indignantly shout "BUT YOU CAN'T CHANGE ANYTHING LUCAS/MARQUAND DID!!" :)
Yeah Nat Portman could/can act but she didn't much in TPM or in the PT in general (that's pretty much down to Lucas only Ian manages anything like a performance in that film and that's in a cast with seasoned actors with stage experience).
Leia is wearing those clothes for the same reason the other Rebels in the command centre are...it's freezing cold, what should she be wearing exactly?
She wore a nightie in ANH because she was captured while doing her Senatorial princess undercover work and it was warm on Yavin, She wore a bounty hunter disguise in ROTJ to get into the palace and a metal bikini because Jabba is a fat pervy slug. She spent the rest of the film in combat gear (the only weird dress choice in that one was the Ewok's little Earth goddess number...Ewoks eat the men, worship the droids and dress up the girls). The Bespin Dinner outfit was a strange choice for evening wear but at least she got out of the frozen weather outfit. On the whole Leia's clothing makes perfect sense.
A lot more sense than dressing Jedi in Moisture Farmer outfits which restrict movement and going to the trouble of putting on forest camo and then dragging along a gold reflective fussy protocol droid (even if he did turn out to useful).
Alright, last comments and then I've got one that might be closer to the group's speed.
I would have left Leia exactly as she was at the end of ANH. A princess, and important dignitary, a Damsel in Distress-Distressing Damsel who obviously has had some small arms and defense training. That way, ROTJ would have made sense. Leia sat by Han because a superior civilian dignitary was doing the introduction and she wasn't a flag officer. I'm all for getting the perfect tilt to Vader's hologram. Anything that can be made perfect-should be. How about perfect continuity in the OT as a whole?
The only real question isn't whether we like or dislike a scene. It's whether replacing that scene or element with something else will produce a better overall pace, tension level, continuity etc... If someone shows me that it doesn't do that, I will be the first to shout NO!
Alright, how 'bout this?
Luke takes down General Veer's AT-AT a split second before he pulls the trigger. We get a glimpse of the head turret interior just begining to erupt in spark and flame and shakes. Cut to head exploding. Luke buys a couple of extra precious minutes for the rebels. Another AT-AT blows the generator?
I can't see the point in cutting that, it sets up just how difficult it is to get through the blockade and it (thanks to Carrie and the photography) doesn't stick out like the tedious exposition scenes in TPM.
Besides I thought we were meant to believe that Leia was in charge (Carrie really pulls that off in this film).
There may not be many 21 year old generals these days (Alexander The Great had conquered the known world and died by 32 though). There are people making strategic life and death decisions of around that age even in the military and the Rebellion is a resistance movement.
Leia is more like Joan Of Arc (executed at 19) in that respect so I don't have a problem with her being a military strategist or a leader at that age. It's not like she's even doing it all on her own she has other command staff there to give experienced advice.
"It sets up how difficult..." It does do that. 5 seconds later it does the exact opposite.
There are four reveals:
1.) The rebels have transport ships.- No problem there. But what if, instead, the viewers are tipped off by a pre-battle cut to the control center. A voice on the receiver says "Transports 3 and 5 have landed. We need the loadmasters, NOW!" Then a quick shot of the ships. An opportunity to increase the tension and sense of urgency? Better than leia's simple reveal that they have transports?
2.) The fighters will be guarding the transports.- That's a little bit "Duh" once we know they have transports. What else would the fighters be doing? Sightseeing? Could save that reveal for first launch.
3.) There are only two fighters per transport.- "Oh no! it's almost hopeless!" Good idea, but does it help all that much? Doesn't everybody already think that they are vastly outmatched?
4.) They have an "Ion Cannon" powerful enough to blow star destroyers out of the way.- This is where they blew off far more tension than they had managed to build up with "Two fighters..." "Oh, it might be okay. they can beat back enormous star destroyers." Pre-battle, what if, instead, we hear a voice on the PA saying "Prepare for ion cannon test." then a quick shot of the cannon traversing and extending the gun? "Oh, they've got some kind of 'Ion Cannon'. Is it enough to help them at all? Is it going to be some kind of pea-shooter? Just a futile, vainglorious gesture?" That tension would build up all the way to the star destroyers spinning out of their path.
Actually, I liked the 'Joan of Arc 14 year old girl leading the assault on the castle.' I didn't think the acting was that important (N.P. became quite a good actress by ROTS.) That and the sabre duel were the two brighter spots in TPM. The big problem was pre-battle. Stiff mattered there, and her only military advisor was...JAR-JAR??!... WTF??! A big problem is costume. At least Padame wore something from a very different time and place. Leia looks just precisely like she's going to snap on her ski's and head for the chairlift.
But this storm I've managed to kick up (I like it. Pissed off makes better points :-) has got me thinking. Compromise? Would the 21 year old snowbunny tellin' the 55 year old General the business in "Two transports...", together with taking over the C.C. after it's hit, be enough to satisfy the 'Joan of Arc' thing?
I might be able to handle that, but the 'Hanger Briefing' is a hopeless mess for several other reasons I could mention. To that I say "NI', NI',NI'!"
TV's Frink said:
My opinion, since you didn't ask:
Leia facelift = FAIL
Agree with Family Guy = Double FAIL
- Please consider my posts to be an open invite for honest evaluation and opinion about any proposed changes to ESB that I make :-)
If Leia's hanger briefing is cut out, and the General's "two at a time" is cut off before Leia speaks, or altogether cut, than the -21 year old in the snowbunny suit is top military expert and and commander- would be fixed. It would create other problems. The ion cannon and the transport ships would need set-ups. If a voice over the PA announces a cannon test, then a cut to the cannon traversing, that might be a set-up. If a voice announces the ships landed, then a cut to the ships, that might be a set-up. Audience sees transports and fighters, they'll know what the fighters do
Bravo Zulu said:
thejediknighthusezni said:The problem is really the first two of Leia's quips (""Would it help..." and "This bucket...") Those two set the tone for everything that follows up to the kiss, and her tone of voice and facial expressions seem just flat-out angry. They were trying to redo the ANH DS+Falcon relationship, but with everything Han just did, It's a little too much, IMO.
I'm wondering, could Leia's eyebrows be lifted and mouth opened, and could her voice be altered, to express as much fear and warning as annoyance? If the first two could be fixed, the entire sequence, from boarding to kiss, would work even better. That's my vote.
She WAS pissed off at him and the looks she shoots at him during the escape from Hoth are all kinds of white hot fiery, sexy awesomeness. This puts the ever cocksure Han in check. He's in a situation he doesn't know if he's going to get out of. Her lack of faith in him at this point in the story adds to the drama and the tension.
Remember, she does soften just a bit when he says "you said you want to be around when I made a mistake..." and she says "I take it back."
All of this pays off in spades when they kiss and carries us through the end of the movie when he is taken away. Just look at the look on her face when Slave 1 flies away. If you want to see fear in Leia, look at the Mynock scene.
I don't think there is a single person who didn't buy into their love for each other. They both went through a lot together, changing from what they were at the beginning of the story to what they were at the end of the story. (As Plinkett would say, "This is called a character arc.")
A problem? No way... not in my OT.
Hey, I'm 100% in favor of Leia giving Han loads of grief before she let's him get into her snowpants.
My problem with it, since my first viewing of ESB, was that it doesn't seem to align with the circumstances. When Leia showed only anger towards Han in the sickbay, there weren't 10,000 Stormtroopers within seconds of landing on top of them. It just didn't ring right for me. Apparently, I'm not the only one. The whole 'Family Guy' bunch has pains-takingly animated a concern I had as a boy, 30 years ago. I would like to see her show some situational awareness, not go any lighter on Han. As it stands, the pure anger she displays in those two quips tilts the whole boarding to kiss sequence a little too much into the 'Single minded angry nag' area, IMO.
But the problem with ESB as a whole, is that a cinematic masterpiece cannot have any flaws. Small flaws can become glaring.
No solid list for ESB really. I have ideas on how to keep RotJR suggestions on track, however it is a long time away.
Thanks, especially to 005. Impressive. No short-cuts then. I'll put in my vote at the risk of repeating.
'The Family Guy' spoof hit it on the head ("Nyah, Nyah, Nyah...Now imagine listening to that all day.") The problem is really the first two of Leia's quips (""Would it help..." and "This bucket...") Those two set the tone for everything that follows up to the kiss, and her tone of voice and facial expressions seem just flat-out angry. They were trying to redo the ANH DS+Falcon relationship, but with everything Han just did, It's a little too much, IMO.
I'm wondering, could Leia's eyebrows be lifted and mouth opened, and could her voice be altered, to express as much fear and warning as annoyance? If the first two could be fixed, the entire sequence, from boarding to kiss, would work even better. That's my vote anyway.
Hey, all! Really enjoying these posts! This project is mind-blowing - I can't wait! I've got some thoughts, but I'd like to ask some Q's before I try throwing in my $.02 . Q1) Is there a list of proposed changes to ESB? The only list I could find is 005's beautiful photo-montage/list for ROTJ. I want to avoid repeating. Q2) Is Ady doing some serious preliminary work on ROTJ, or is he all ESB right now?