thejediknighthusezni

Bingowings said:

Superman has alien muscles so he shouldn't look too buff.

I thought the swimmer look that Singer chose fitted the character better, Superman sort of swims in the sky...

...

*shudder*

Batman is a human so to do all the acrobatic things he does he needs to be buff.

So arguably it makes more sense if Batman looks more pumped up than Superman but the falsies... I've never liked them since Keaton and I don't like them now.

          The superhero thing is not my genre, in spite of enjoying films like AVENGERS and BATMAN '89 quite a bit.

          I was into SPIDERMAN comics as a kid.

          I have not been a fan of this unconventional casting, though guys like Keaton did very well with their parts. Too much defiance of expectations. I'm sure I would have felt this way as a nine year-old, as much as I would have wanted to see a high budget FX Spiderman.

          To me, a comic book superhero should come straight out of Central Casting. They should be ruggedly good looking and built like Olympic swimmers or gymnasts. I think Affleck is close enough.

          When I was a kid, I fantasized of being like the comicbook Peter Parker.

          I feel certain that those films were  COMMERCIALLY successful IN SPITE of their unconventional heroes and not because of them. I must believe that, had they cast the comic book type with equal acting ability, those movies would have done as well or better.

Bingowings said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

       I suppose there is a great difference between a cop who hides his car behind a bush to catch wrongdoers and a sociologist who puts up a sign seeking compliance in order to test the character of individuals and the culture at large.

       If God can see past, present and future simultaneously, The Being is at once knowing and learning.

It's a very silly God that makes laws he knows will be broken and then plays cop, judge, jury and executioner.

I'm not saying such a God is implausible, a lot of work goes into make the Grand Theft Auto series and I dare say enjoyment is derived from them but that does make us little more than an entertainment.

      Granted, it's an imperfect analogy.

      God is under no obligation to be an objective observer.

      Every test is a game and every game is a test. Novelty produces the most interesting results in entertainment as well as "science".

      The school districts that sponsor team sports might have a "scientific" interest in the outcomes of these competitions, feel entertained by the spectacle, and care a great deal that the children practice good sportsmanship and avoid hurting each other. 

       I suppose there is a great difference between a cop who hides his car behind a bush to catch wrongdoers and a sociologist who puts up a sign seeking compliance in order to test the character of individuals and the culture at large.

       If God can see past, present and future simultaneously, The Being is at once knowing and learning.

     NOAH

     Well done. Production design, direction, score... all first rate. Cast was spot-on. Connely and Watson were terrific.  

      I was fully engaged by the alternate take on the epic story.

      SPOILERS SPOILERS

      Yeah, the rock giants were quite fanciful. I don't know if there is some basis in folklore for that. Insta-forest was also unexpected. They moved the story from epic towards fairey-tale, which might have been the intent.

     Making the other two unborn girls was an interesting twist. 

RicOlie_2 said:

After posting in a couple other forums today, I realized how much better quoting is on this site than on those forums. Here, all one has to do to separate text in a block quote is press enter and click the block quote button and one can type between them. On other forums, one has to either type out the "[/quote]" and then "[quote]" at the beginning of the next section, or, for each section of text

 

does this work?

 

, highlight the text, click the quote button, and delete extra quote tags. I'm sure there are some forums with better quote options than that, and it isn't as easy to multi-quote here as it is on some other forums, but I like what we've got here better than what they've got on other sites.

 well, half successful. Pardon the experiment.

Mrebo said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

TV's Frink said:

What stuff would it justify?  Treating homosexuals like equals? OH NO LIFE IS RUINED!!!

    I'll give the researcher the benefit of the doubt, but the characters who militantly push this kind of thing have much more on their agenda than "equality" for their private practices.

    There are dudes out there who are careful to conduct their cross-dressing in private with the drapes drawn. This shows the most MINIMAL respect and consideration for the rest of society. In the abstract, I wish they wouldn't behave that way at all, but I would be opposed to hounding them to the point of raiding their private domiciles and upending their lives.

   I say just don't ram that sort of unfortunate proclivity into the faces of others, their children or their regressed children(13-21).

   So, obviously, I'M the evil monster.

I find the use of the term "drapes" interesting. I never use that word and much prefer "curtains." It was a fussy sentence. And what are "regressed children"? There are many out there who would apply a similar rant against religion. In this forum we've seen some comments against religion in this vein - as in the way religion gets rammed into the faces of children (and seriously, terrible metaphorical language,  tjkh).

      Drapes? Dunno. Maybe it's a midwestern thing? I grew up around building design, so I might be more familiar with the term.

      People who aren't seeing the difference between moral precepts of a faith that are meant to protect the vulnerable, and the depraved objectives of a militant segment within a deviating fringe, will have difficulty seeing my point.

      Something is going to be taught to the kids. It is the responsibility of all adults in a society to make DAMN SURE that what they learn genuinely helps them to manage their sexuality and sense of self in an uplifting and humanly proper way.

      Before the inevitable "Who decides what is proper?", I will say that I am a great believer in the principle of "Underneath it all, people KNOW." That is, underneath all the BS, everyone who is capable of coherent thought is already equiped with essential understanding.

      Nobody disagrees with me in matters of essential principle. The only disagreement is about how resolutely and in what manner we should hold to principle, instead of pretending that the violation of what is right can somehow be a principled stand.

TV's Frink said:

What stuff would it justify?  Treating homosexuals like equals? OH NO LIFE IS RUINED!!!

    I'll give the researcher the benefit of the doubt, but the characters who militantly push this kind of thing have much more on their agenda than "equality" for their private practices.

    There are dudes out there who are careful to conduct their cross-dressing in private with the drapes drawn. This shows the most MINIMAL respect and consideration for the rest of society. In the abstract, I wish they wouldn't behave that way at all, but I would be opposed to hounding them to the point of raiding their private domiciles and upending their lives.

   I say just don't ram that sort of unfortunate proclivity into the faces of others, their children or their regressed children(13-21).

   So, obviously, I'M the evil monster.

TheBoost said:

The word cult has very limited uses in Religious studies. At best its a vague overarching term for organization structures based and secrecy, relatively intense indoctrination, and usually a single charasmatic head.

      Yeah, I go for a very broad definition as distinguised from "occult". A group lead by one or a few who are convinced they have "uncovered" the one genuine way and build doctrines, organization, and set practices around their discovery.

RicOlie_2 said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

RicOlie_2 said:

It makes me sad and angry when I see how so many people, especially Protestants, have no idea what Catholics really believe. I was looking at an apologetics forum called "raptureforums" and pretty much nobody there has the slightest clue what Catholics or Mormons believe. They have such bizarre ideas about us it made me cringe. I tried to sign up to make some counter arguments, but I was unable to post, or even view my profile, for some reason. The posters there also refer to Catholicism as a "cult" (even though more than 50% of Christians are Catholic!) and distinguish Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnessism (or whatever you call them), etc. from "Christianity."

Yet Protestants and Catholics aren't all that different in their core beliefs, though many millions of Protestants think we believe the strangest things...

    Is it directed towards the rank and file or the hierarchy?

Catholicism as a whole.

    I make a tremendous distinction between the laity and the Jesuit educated clerics. It's like the lower degrees of Masonry, on the whole good folks who don't have a clear idea what's really goin' on. Only a very small handful at the top are given the BIG picture.

And just what is the "BIG picture"? I don't have time for bizarre conspiracy theories which have no basis. The Catholic Church is there to help people get to heaven, not to prevent the faithful from knowing the truth.

    Personally, I don't care about vestments or bread and wine. There are lines in the NT that could justify wearing special clothes (as much as I am sure that the disciples wore standard clothing) and there is no question that One who could create the fabulous complexity of life could somehow transmute food and drink into something more significant (as much as I am certain that it was meant simply as an act of remembrance.) It's only when INSANE SNAKES start using these differences as cause to destroy other persons and societies that I start to care.

 What "INSANE SNAKES"? Also, special clothing isn't required in order for a priest to say Mass. Religious habits are also no longer required as of the Second Vatican Council, just encouraged.

       If a snake was hell-bent on running an intensely depraved "conspiracy", wouldn't an effort to convince the sheep that there is "NO CONSPIRACY", only angels of light trying to do good, be something quite high up on his to-do list?

RicOlie_2 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I've noticed that some of the more rapid Protestants like to label anything that isn't Protestantism -- be it non-Protestant Christianity or even seperate religions -- as a cult.

What does speed have to do with their tendency to label non-Protestants as cults? ;)

      For Christianity, other religions ARE cults. It can be argued that turning Christian Faith into a "religion" is to turn it into a cult.

RicOlie_2 said:

It makes me sad and angry when I see how so many people, especially Protestants, have no idea what Catholics really believe. I was looking at an apologetics forum called "raptureforums" and pretty much nobody there has the slightest clue what Catholics or Mormons believe. They have such bizarre ideas about us it made me cringe. I tried to sign up to make some counter arguments, but I was unable to post, or even view my profile, for some reason. The posters there also refer to Catholicism as a "cult" (even though more than 50% of Christians are Catholic!) and distinguish Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnessism (or whatever you call them), etc. from "Christianity."

Yet Protestants and Catholics aren't all that different in their core beliefs, though many millions of Protestants think we believe the strangest things...

    Is it directed towards the rank and file or the hierarchy?

    I make a tremendous distinction between the laity and the Jesuit educated clerics. It's like the lower degrees of Masonry, on the whole good folks who don't have a clear idea what's really goin' on. Only a very small handful at the top are given the BIG picture.

    Personally, I don't care about vestments or bread and wine. There are lines in the NT that could justify wearing special clothes (as much as I am sure that the disciples wore standard clothing) and there is no question that One who could create the fabulous complexity of life could somehow transmute food and drink into something more significant (as much as I am certain that it was meant simply as an act of remembrance.)

     It's only when INSANE SNAKES start using these differences as cause to destroy other persons and societies that I start to care.

RicOlie_2 said:

That has to be a joke...but if it isn't, that's very, very sad.

This, however, is interesting. If the chances of being gay do in fact increase by a third with each older brother, and I understood what is meant by "a third" correctly, my youngest brother is 133% more likely to be gay than I was.

       I'm certain that if someone searched obsessively, a gene for a marginal increase in responsiveness to risk or resistance to toxicity could be found in 40% of carnival geeks.

       This researcher set out with a desperate hope of finding something and he managed to justify his funding.

        This is going to be used to "justify" stuff.

Bingowings said:

I imagine a lot of people have seen this one already but it's one of those rare instances where seeing a woman cry made me smile.

This one is even more amazing.

       I'm very happy for those people.

       It's a pity there are no anecdotal examples of wonderful things happening in private US health care.

       You could find plenty of clips proving the gloriousness of US public education on the National Education Association web sites. :)

Bingowings said:

If you are a NHS user or use a similar scheme you may well have sympathy with this petition.

If you don't agree with your country having socialised medicine you may still agree with the principle that if someone has already paid for something via taxation they shouldn't be charged for it again.

Also if the model is going to held up as example it should stand on it's own feet without added surcharges.

       The socialist-totalitarian mentality would be HYSTERICALLY funny if it wasn't for...

      If the new revenue is for the purpose of closing a budget deficit, it cannot be said that anybody has already paid for it.

      The great thing about minimal government involvement is minimal concern about what the government is doing.

      When you walk into a grocery store for a carton of milk, does the cashier say "You have twice as much in your wallet as Bob, so you have to pay twice the amount."? Food is far more immediately necessary to society than health care.

      If you can find a petition that divides the NHS budget per capita and then requires that a third goes to catastrophic insurance and two thirds into an individual health savings account, you'll have this Yank's sig.  

      Well, Putin does HATE Neil Patrick Harris. :P

Bingowings said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

      Mozilla? Pffffffftt, that's nothing.

      We now have millions of homosexuals joining our enlightened masters in working themselves up into fits. They are agitating for a most intense confrontation with the 10 THOUSAND nuclear warheads in Russia's arsenal. Millions more who would normally oppose this sort of war mongering have gone off into the tall brush grumbling.

      Why? Because Putin DARED to say that the targeting of Russian boys by cruel predators is really not such a great thing. 

     These homosexuals were the the indispensible leaders of the effort to destroy the US position for stopping the Iran nuke program. Ya can't blame them. Dubya got political support from parents and grandparents who DARED to be unenthusiastic about RRRRAAAAAAMMMMMING "Guys who rub each other's excrement on their dicks are married" HHHAAAAAARRRRRRD down the throats of their children.

      Even if they are playing a game with Putin for a "limited" conflict, this is DANGEROUS BEYOND IMAGINING.

      Ya gotta love the Militant Homosexual Mindset (no, seriously, ya GOTTA LOVE them MHMs),  between arming the Iranians with nukes and joining the dove slaughtering satanic Jesuit operation to "help" the "Catholics" in the Ukraine, the MHM is fixin' to be the key indispensible factor in THE DESTRUCTION OF PLANET EARTH!!!

He was equating homosexuality with pedophilia as are you by the looks of things. Are you real? You read like a spoof.

      Everyone who dares to notice that there is a homosexual out there who is anything less than perfectly wonderful is an evil "equator".

      There are MILLIONS of totalitarians left-over from the old Soviet Union. The people over there must consider that reality and how it relates to the security of their families.

      Mozilla? Pffffffftt, that's nothing.

      We now have millions of homosexuals joining our enlightened masters in working themselves up into fits. They are agitating for a most intense confrontation with the 10 THOUSAND nuclear warheads in Russia's arsenal. Millions more who would normally oppose this sort of war mongering have gone off into the tall brush grumbling.

      Why? Because Putin DARED to say that the targeting of Russian boys by cruel predators is really not such a great thing. 

     These homosexuals were the the indispensible leaders of the effort to destroy the US position for stopping the Iran nuke program. Ya can't blame them. Dubya got political support from parents and grandparents who DARED to be unenthusiastic about RRRRAAAAAAMMMMMING "Guys who rub each other's excrement on their dicks are married" HHHAAAAAARRRRRRD down the throats of their children.

      Even if they are playing a game with Putin for a "limited" conflict, this is DANGEROUS BEYOND IMAGINING.

      Ya gotta love the Militant Homosexual Mindset (no, seriously, ya GOTTA LOVE them MHMs),  between arming the Iranians with nukes and joining the dove slaughtering satanic Jesuit operation to "help" the "Catholics" in the Ukraine, the MHM is fixin' to be the key indispensible factor in THE DESTRUCTION OF PLANET EARTH!!!

Bingowings said:

There are differences of approach. For some people suffering is good for the soul and poor and sick people suffer because their soul needs a bit of a sprucing up.

For the sane people of the planet suffering is a pain to be avoided and a mature society recognises this.

The French generally speaking don't mind paying higher taxes than us because they get a level of social service that would just blow your tiny mind.It gives me the willies.

Here in the UK while we recognise that suffering isn't fate's way of weeding out the herd we tend to be afflicted by a class of people who want their presents and more pocket money. Essentially deranged spoilt children :

      LOL. Lord save us from the best possible presents at affordable prices while pocketing large sums. 

      Could it be that THE TEST is to see how well we overcome the challenges of suffering?

      Bottom line is, Everyone needs profit incentive and stiff competition in order to excell. Lefty democratic-totalitarians are about stamping this all out.

      (Limey democratic-totalitarian pol with a million pounds to spend on "health care" and no tremendous external pressures or examples of wise spending)   "Hmmmmm......I could devote this to cutting-edge research that probably won't pan out.....ooooooorrrrrrrr........I could give it all to a health care union boss in exchange for a percentage kick-back and support for my re-election campaign.........Hmmmmmmm, hmmmmmmm, hmmmmmm.......Which one of these?........."   ;/    ;\    ;/

     It's a good thing that nothing like this has happened yet even with US innovations, best practices and bearing the costs of developement.

     There's no such thing as financiers who provide desperately needed capital to struggling or expanding businesses. They don't bring any money into Britain. They do nothing to make up for the effects of socialism.

     I am curious, after you communise everything, where do you plan to find the resources to run your NHS?? Didn't the Neo-Marxist Labour Party run up a crushing deficit trying to sustain that whole approach?

     If I am made Supreme Imperious Poobah of British health care, I'll reorder things and then retire within a long weekend. "Ya know those forces and methods that cause Lasik and plastic surgeries to increase in quality while decreasing in costs? Yeah, we're gonna do that stuff with all major med procedures." Everyone would get relatively inexpensive high-deductable catastrophic insurance and a medical savings account. Once the account is built up to a certain level, inividual adults could start pocketing thousands of dollars a year. Health services companies would EXPLODE onto the scene And become a COSMICALLY HUGE TAX BASE instead of a DEVASTATING drain on government coffers. Med services consumers would become shrewd and responsible. No such thing as waiting months or years for rationed procedures. Dynamism and innovation galore...

     Of course, that would put a damper on the program to bring the glories of the old Soviet Union to all Britain.

Bingowings said:

Much of the equipment in general use in America (medical and otherwise) was developed by and largely for other countries.

The reflecting telescope, the toothbrush, the tin can, the lawn mower, the telephone, the light bulb, the jet engine, the computer, television, the interwebz.

None of these were original American inventions, the fact that India and China now make most medical equipment and north Europe invents most medicines does somewhat undermine your controversial assertion that the NHS is somehow subsidised by America.

I wish we did make all of our medical equipment and had labs breaking the patents on privately patented medicine. Sadly our politician problem is down to greedy gits thinking they can make a quick buck privatising a national asset.

As for cosmetic surgery and the like, these aren't generally available on the NHS either. People are more likely to save and pay for a Moob job than instigate an insurance policy for essential work, especially with the recent history of corruption scandals in the financial service industry.

Preventing disease and injury are as vital a national service as preventing an invasion from a foreign enemy or a civil war. You can't leave vital services to market forces. If you could we would privatise the military and Government.

     A greatly disproportionate share is originally developed in the US. But I'm really not focused on where an item is developed or which corporate logo is stamped on it. I'm looking at the MOST PROFOUND EFFECTS that are created by the MULTI-TRILLION DOLLAR US market. All the good stuff is being developed with the knowledge that the US will bear a greatly disproportionate share of the costs and the other state health care systems can swoop in and bulk-purchase at tremendous discounts. The greater individual responsibility and flexibility leads to much greater innovations with quicker applications. The LASIK and plastic surgery procedures are the outstanding examples of this.

    What you call a "greedy git", I call an entreprenuer who wants bring much better goods and services to the people more quickly and less expensively (if he isn't expecting government "help".) The "greed" of such people is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING compared the lust for ever increasing, life and death POWER over the masses that the "incremental" TOTALITARIAN lefties will inevitably pursue.

        BTW, where's the love for the financial sector peeps? My understanding is that the London area financial sector is the only thing keeping the NHS and, indeed, the ENTIRE economy afloat. If you're going to rely on the NHS for your survival, I strongly suggest that you go to London, find a "finance git", and passionately kiss his toes (being that it's Britain, he'd probably get into that kinda thing;) 

        Food production is FAR more immediately essential to survival than health care. All of human history teaches us about what a wonderful idea it would be to have the government totally manage that.  

Bingowings said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

Bingowings said:

Say it loud! You are a doodoo-poopyface and you are proud but seriously though despite your worries about becoming Stalinists socialised medicine is one of the best ideas since the invention of edible words.

       Without buying drugs, diagnostic equipment, and supplies developed for the American health care market for pennies on the dollar and without the political imperative to compete with the best practices in America, Britain would very soon have Stalinist health care.

Two of the big five drug companies are British owned and run from Britain.

The other three are northern European and produce their wares here.

Most of the medical equipment in the world is made in China or India not the USA.

UK training hospitals export more Doctors back to the third world than we keep. Arguably the whole world benefits from it and it's not even the best example of a socialised health care system. The French have a much better system than we do.

       Point still stands. I was talking about items developed for the American market, not where the corporate suits might be located. China and India copy like crazy. You lose your best doctors because you refuse to pay them appropriately. The biggest reason for anti-Americanism is the Euro political establishments are furious about having to compete with the US best practices.

       If you examine the major medical procedures in the US where the government stays out of it (Lasik, plastic surgeries...), quality has shot upwards over time while prices have fallen through the floor. Where the government keeps ladling on the regulations and mandates, prices have shot out of the solar system while quality stagnates or goes down. The politicians who create the problems then get to step in with "solutions".

      America has a politician problem, not a health care problem.

Bingowings said:

Say it loud! You are a doodoo-poopyface and you are proud but seriously though despite your worries about becoming Stalinists socialised medicine is one of the best ideas since the invention of edible words.

       Without buying drugs, diagnostic equipment, and supplies developed for the American health care market for pennies on the dollar and without the political imperative to compete with the best practices in America, Britain would very soon have Stalinist health care.

Warbler said:

darth_ender said:

Similarly we don't have a passive aggressive paranoiac's thread.

 I want to address something, not just to you, but to everyone.  What I am about to say could hurt feelings permanently, but I think it's important to point out.  I have a suspicion that Warbler has an autism-spectrum disorder, perhaps what was until recently called Asperger's .  I got this list from a website:

ASPERGERS: CLINICAL FEATURES

One of the primary features of Aspergers is their passion for favorite topics or special interests. Some of these areas include:

• astronomy
• dinosaurs
• extraterrestrials
• geography
• history 
• machines or machinery
• maps
• math
• metereology
• music
• reading 
• science
• social studies
• space travel
• trains
• weather

I might suggest other topics like politics or sports.

Socialization deficits—

• Are inflexible and incapable of coping with change
...
• Difficulties making social connections
• Easily stressed and emotionally vulnerable
• Frequently described as “odd” or selfish
• Highly frustrated by their social awkwardness/alienation
• Lack effective interaction skills — not desire
• Lack understanding of human relations and rules of social convention
• Naïve and lack common sense
...
• Seldom interested in other's interests/concerns
• Unable to “read” others' needs and perspectives
• Unable to appropriately respond to social cues

How often have members here laughed at Warbler's inability to get an obvious joke or his taking things too literally or personally?

Social rejection of Aspergers kids—

Because of their social ineptness ASPERGERS kids are often the focus of bullying, scape-goating, hazing and teasing. This often leads to anxiety, feelings of rejection, depression and withdrawal.

...

For some teenagers, computers are an alternative from stressful social situations. Computers also provide a more linear, modulated form of socialization that ASPERGERS kids are more skilled and comfortable at handling. Since many ASPERGERS kids become very computer proficient, they become valuable resources to their peers. It also provides a media for social interaction in which they can feel competent and valued. 

...

Use of Language—

• Concrete language rather than abstract
• Difficulty understanding humor
...
• Typically revert to favorite topic area 

...
• Weak pragmatic-conversational-skills

TEACHING STRESS REDUCTION SKILLS—

AS kids are:

• are often anxious and worrisome
• easily overwhelmed 
• highly sensitive 
• often engage in rituals

I got these from this site.  I removed what I thought was not applicable in Warbler's case or was not available just by reading his computer posts.  You can see the whole list at the link.

I feel Warbler fits many of these criteria and have thought so for some time.  I didn't ever point it out because of my fear of hurting him and because I could easily be incorrect, as it's hard to judge a person by computer posts alone.  But I feel the need to point it out now as he is so often the subject of negative humor, yea, even what some might call prejudice.  Folks judge him without truly knowing him.  For this reason I again resort to this quote:

Similarly we don't have a passive aggressive paranoiac's thread. 

Since this quote is obviously referring to Warbler, let me again say that perhaps it is not a bad idea to have a thread devoted to the prejudices, bigotry, and mistreatment directed at those who have emotional, psychological, or personality disorders.  They too are victims, often completely without recognition.  I want everyone to consider just perhaps how hypocritical they may have been in their treatment of others, including Warbler, without understanding the hardships many of them go through.

 You think I may have autism-spectrum disorder?  hmmm.  I don't know.   I can't say I am interested in all the things you listed someone with that disorder might be interested in.  I suppose some of listed symptoms describe some of my problems.  I admit I probably have some sort of mental issue(s).   When growing up I was described as a slow learner and for a couple of years was in a special education class.   As I have said before I know and admt I have temper issues.  When I could afford it, I was in therapy for my temper.   When I can afford to do so again, I will go back.  The therapist seemed to think that I had I been going to school today, I would have diagnosed with some sort of learning disorder(perhaps ADD).  Of course he was not qualifed to make such a diagnoses himself, and of course neither can I or you, Darth Ender.   So until and unless I go to the people qualified to make such a diagnoses, there is no way to know what mental issues I truly have. 

        I suspect that soon, as we all retreat into the internet, EVERYONE will be "diagnosed" as "Autistic".

Bingowings said:

I know present day Warb is officially not going to read this but here goes (for the future, for the unofficial).

While I appreciate the gesture of defending people like myself from prejudice much of that prejudice is coming from parts of the Bible that a large number of Jews, Christians and Muslims either don't take literally or believe no longer applies or never applied to everyone. It's like yeast. Those violent ideas are not always active but it breaks out and spreads often when you least expect it.

So what's to do? I appreciate your concern over family heirlooms and wouldn't want you to chuck them out or chop them up.

You are a Christian. Not a devotee of Ea or Vishnu so while the deluge has some connective tissue to the canonical mythos of Christ it doesn't really have much to do with the teaching of Jesus. Similarly some of the Old Testament sanctions don't chime with what the Savior of the Gospels has to say.

You don't have to physically rip out the pages of the Bible, you can edit them down in your mind.

Peel away the dead wood and leave only what you personally believe and if you don't believe that God wanted people to be stoned to death (Which I've never thought you have) leave that bit out of your personal canon.

You can say it is there in the Bible but I don't believe my God would do that.

Just as if you read someone accusing a beloved relative of doing something horrific you would say I read that but I don't believe it of him or her.

If God has changed and was cruel and sadistic but is now a God of peace and tolerance say that too but if you believe God is still so disgusted by my actions that he wants me violently killed (something you repeatedly say you do not believe and I believe you) don't mention him in defense of what He finds abominable.

It's too paradoxical it's like quoting war criminal to defend civil liberties.

       Actually, the OT is about exactly what I'd expect from a concerned Deity who wished to provide a bit of guidance to a Bronze Age people without "doing the whole deal" for them and defeating the purpose of the test. Even the most harsh measures can work torwards the greatest good and mercy.

       All of these sorts of arguments really come back to The Problem of Evil. Atheists and agnostics have the greatest trouble accepting the proposition that this world is SUPPOSED to be a veil of tears. It's SUPPOSED to be a terrible testing ground. We are cast into the world in order to be subject to the slings and arrows. We are being TESTED to see how well we overcome. Engineers create Destruction Tests where they deliberately press their creations beyond their limits to see if and how they break.

      All of this is horrible. Is it unjustified? Is it Evil? How the hell should I know?! I would have to be certain of the consequences of NOT running the test to be in a position to even begin to find the answer.

       I do know that sneering and declaring, against ever mounting tidal waves of evidence, that "There is no God." won't bring anyone closer to answering anything.

darth_ender said:

Bingowings said:

Judge your own actions not the actions of others but in a nuanced way seems to be the message of the piece.

Others were judging Him. Being without sin he can pass judgement on their passing of judgement on Him.

 I find it hard to believe that this is what Jesus taught, or what anyone believes.  If you think about it, you judge my actions, including any prejudice you see in me.  If I beat my children or cheated on my wife or murdered my next-door-neighbor, I'm sure you would judge my actions as evil.  Would such not be righteous judgment?

But you are certainly correct that Jesus is in the best of positions to judge others, being without sin.

         This brings up a whole other broad aspect of the term "judge". Beat, cheat, murder are actions which must be "judged" in order to produce a final conviction and condemnation. People who commit these grave offences are no longer brothers within the community. It's not a matter of realizing that you have sins as bad or worse and must focus on that. Justice must be done. Who must produce justice? When and in what venue? For the Christian, God ultimately provides. The State, when consistantly trying to act within True Civil Law, must be relied upon. A religion of Law can deputize leading members of the community. Even the Church can, without stepping on State perogatives, step in and provide some decisions. All of this requires a great deal of judgement by, hopefully, Christian people.

        In the story of the adultress (possibly extra-canonical, btw) a people of The Law attempted to carry out their terrible responsibility. They paused to receive guidance from a Rabbi. Christ reminds them that The Law is to lead ultimately to Mercy and that they were not truly qualified to deliver such an ultimate condemnation and conviction. Then what happens? WWJD? Christ turns and JUDGES the horrible wicked behavior of the adultress and admonishes, exhorts, and commands that she go to where she should be without sinning any further.

        Context and who is acting as judge matters. In The Sermon on the Mount, Christ delivers a shocking set of instructions. The State Church, obviously wishing to escape the judgement of their human cattle while gaining even better control over them, insisted and insists that all of these instructions must apply to all Christian laity at all times. Is this what Christ intended? A careful reading of the Gospels will reveal that the "Disciples" were NOT the laity. Many times Christ speaks to the general audience and then pulls the disciples aside for further special instruction. These were very special MISSIONARY CLERGY (I strongly suspect they were the 72). Furthermore, the intstructions were meant for a very special and limited period of time (Christ's Ministry, when they received special help and protection.) Towards the end of Luke, Christ makes it clear that the special period has ended and Christian missionaries must begin behaving as regular human beings in the natural world.

        Paul instructs the leaders to avoid contentiousness in their regular, day-to-day lives. They are to be EXTREMELY judgemental all the while. They were never to give the impression that sin was no big deal. They could give stern admonishment in appropriate circumstances. Christians may not walk around the shopping mall with a chip on their shoulders breathing fire and brimstone while others are just trying to find some new clothes. They are not to be unduly disruptive. They should lead by example when they are "out in the world". When they are in a debate sort of venue challenged....