Yeah, I forgot that... too many laserdisc player models to remember...
SilverWook said:
My ancient PR-8210 is pretty good at problem discs.
Yes, it could be used to play it, probably it will play it better than a MUSE player. Video quality wise, though, should be lower than a MUSE player, IMHO...
Almost all laserdisc players use the 780nm semiconductor laser, the same of any compact disc player; it could be difficult to play a laserdisc through scratches.
A way to play it flawlessy (maybe) is to use a laserdisc player with a red laser; any MUSE player should be able to do it, as they have a 670nm laser.
In the rare occasion a MUSE laserdisc player can't play a scratched disc, the only way to go is to use an "ancient" player, like the Pioneer PR 7820 or LD-600, as they use the He-Ne laser tube at 628nm.
Hope this help; again, my Pioneer HLD-X9 will be "glad" to play it for you! (^^,)
DoomBot said:
I would love to see the JP BD get this color treatment. Would the laserdisc and dts cinema audio be included?
As I wrote in the JP thread, I didn't include the Cinema DTS because the laserdisc DTS soundtrack is basically the same; except for the fact that the DTS encoding for laserdisc used a more advanced encoder than the theatrical one, plus it has a discrete subwoofer channel, while the Cinema DTS has not...
Plus, I should leave space for the uncompressed PCM, if possible...
TEST CLIP ADDED: ROBOCOP Criterion CAV upscaled (17MB, with sound)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/92dksk
opinions?
I have this:
not so blue as 2D BD; despite the fact that 3D BD has richer colors, and it seems closer to 35mm cells, I'm not sure that a projected image of the same shot, at the theater, shows off the same 3D BD "color richness"... I mean, in real life (not under movie lights) do you think a person, inside a car, in the rainy night, could be seen with that right colors?!?
About TR: I think I will give it the green light; further opinions are welcome!
Further screenshot comparisons (3D BD top, LD bottom)
Turisu said:
I like the LD colours. In the scene with the doctor Arnie's shirts look green in the BD but grey in the LD so there is definitely a difference.
Also the skin tone on the boobs closeup looks better on the LD IMO. :D
"...those are carefully selected shots, to better show up some particular details" (^^,)
So, at the end, do you agree that it deserves a restoration project?
I have not the original capture anymore... but this is a screenshot from the finished project:
not too different from the 3D BD, color wise:
but, as you can see, 3D BD is more cropped.
Here you are the screenshot comparisons I made at the time I released the JP [ruLes] - 3D BD top, LD bottom:
Here 3D BD colors are not that bad.
...but what about here? The 3D BD seems to me a bad preserved '70's B-movie, don't you think? And please, don't tell me that "this scene was intended to look exactly as is"... because you know that it's not true! (^^,) I'm pretty sure this has something to do with the 3D conversion.
here 3D BD colors are better than before, but still a bit wrong IMHO.
There was also the scene of the boys inside the jeep, where the 3D BD image was really dark and muddy.
So, if I ever have to do a "Jurassic Park [spoRv]" project, I think that to use the LD as color reference is the better solution. What do you think?
UPDATE
if someone is curious about next projects, take a look at this test clip (43MB): http://www.sendspace.com/file/qdecpb
what is about? Surprise! Just download it, and post your opinions here if it should be done or not - to me, color differences are not exagerated, but still important enough to think to release it.
I decided to capture only the laserdisc audio, because, as Turisu pointed out in a previous post, the LD color grading is basically the same of the 35th anniversary...
raw capture; note the white clipping on the sky, where it's not possible to see any cloud...
Turisu, don't worry; this thread was created to throw in any idea, thought, comment, about past and future projects.
Plus, any user who would like to join the bunch for specific projects, or simply want to form a stable crew, is really welcome!
P.S. you should fix the HighDefNews.com images, as they don't allow hot links!
Thanks, really appreciated! At the moment, another member is willing to upload it ASAP; if it will not be possible, I'll let you know.
The most important thing is to accomplish the mission!
I did the JP [ruLes] thinking that the laserdisc has more accurate colors than the 3D BD... but hey, I could be wrong... or not? (^^,)
If I was right, it's still possible to apply the laserdisc colors to the 2BD.
By the way, IIRC, the 2D BD has some kind of problems, too... can't remember if it was EE, DNR, compression artifacts or something else!
Turisu said:
The laserdisc has the same colour timing as the old VHS releases which is similar to the 35th Anniversary BD.
As far as I know, the only release with the digitally altered colours is the 1999 THX DVD.
You know too many things for my tastes... (^^,) OK, you are right, I have just captured that scene, and colors are almost the same of the 35th BD... I was pretty sure the colors were the same of the 1999 THX DVD, but I was wrong...
Well, this is why I ask everytime other's opinion: it's better to know I'm wrong BEFORE the project beginning! Now, the only thing I should do is to find the 1999 THX DVD, and that's all - video wise.
Audio wise, I must capture the laserdisc twice, first for the movie soundtrack, second for commentary and isolated score. But I will not "ruin" my beautiful shiny X9 for a "mere" audio capture... one of the other will do really well.
@zeropc: I have no problem to capture laserdisc's trailer soundtrack.
zeropc said:
so you use the 3d or 2d bd of the movie?
ehr... this was a [ruLes] project, but it seems I should change my plans... the 2D BD may be the logical choice, as it seems it has far less contrast problems (if any).
PROJECT UPDATE:
Captures done!
Found some old posts on usenet:
The Y/C setting sets the mode of the comb filter.
Normal- for normal material
C- Wide- typically used for material with lots of fast action
HR- High resolution- Produces the most resolution of all the settings
but is only used for material that is mostly static images. With this
setting you cannot adjust the 3D Y/C level. It locks out this control
and sets the level to MAX.
3D Y/C- this controls the level of 3D processing. OFF is no 3D
processing, 2D only. The more you turn this up the more 3D processing
is done on the signal. I typically leave mine at 2 or 3 for normal
material. Usually use less processing for fast moving sequences and
more for slow or static material.
3D YNR- This controls the level of 3D noise reduction done on the
luminance (black and white) portions of the signal. Off is 2D
processing, and more 3D processing is added as your turn the scale up.
I generally keep this one at level 2 or 3, but it's really what seems
best to you.
3D CNR- This controls the level of 3D noise reduction done on the
chroma (color) portions of the signal. Off is 2D processing, and more
3D processing is added as your turn the scale up. I generally keep
this one around midpoint, but again is based on your own preference.
What I've found is if the disc has lots of action, I try to keep things
low. For example, watching Star wars I usually use C-wide mode with 3D
Y/C at level 2 with the noise reduction at 2 or 3.
Slow movies that are mostly dialog with no action I will use normal
mode with 3D y/c at half with more noise reduction. I rarely use HR
mode because it can cause smearing.The DNR is going to interact differently with every display, so there
are no hard and fast rules here, but generally speaking it's better to
keep YNR low because it causes the most blatant smearing. You have more
leeway with CNR, which can be comfortably pushed to the mid-point or a
little higher on most monitors....
I'll just add to this by saying
that if you turn the 3D Y/C up too high it can result in a
"checkerboarding" of colors during shots with motion. A prime example of
this are the laser blasts in Star Wars, which turn into a blocky mess
with the 3D processing any higher than the bottom step or two....
The higher the 3D the more vivid your colors, but the consequence are
artifacts during motion.
As far as general noise, I
don't find the player to have a noisy picture. However, while HR mode
does give a slightly sharper picture, I find that it does result in
increased noise in the image and if there is any fast action
scenes it exhibits a "hatch" type pattern and smearing. For example,
the Star Wars LD are nearly unwatchable in HR because of all the fast
moving action, there are "hatch" type patterns all over, especially
seen in the laser blasts. The only thing I use HR for is laserdiscs that
have mostly static or slow moving images. I think HR is made for Art
style laserdiscs with mostly still images. On the X9 the amount of 3D
processing cannot be adjusted in this mode and by viewing patterns on
Video essentials it appears that the 3D processing is at MAX when in
HR. The 3D level being at or near max isn't good for fast moving
action and this is what I think causes the issues I see on the Star
Wars LD.
I add these factory settings:
Standardl:
- Y/C : Normal (others are Normal and HR)
- 3D.Y/C: 4 (0 off, 8 max)
- 3D.YNR:
4 (0 off, 8 max)
- 3D.CNR:
4 (0 off, 8 max)
Sport:
- Y/C : Normal (others are Normal and HR)
- 3D.Y/C: 2 (0 off, 8 max)
- 3D.YNR:
2 (0 off, 8 max)
- 3D.CNR:
2 (0 off, 8 max)
Art:
- Y/C : Normal (others are Normal and HR)
- 3D.Y/C: 6 (0 off, 8 max)
- 3D.YNR:
6 (0 off, 8 max)
- 3D.CNR:
6 (0 off, 8 max)
I did that test some times ago, posted to Matt's thread; I still must do tests with laserdisc as color reference - don't know if it has the same colors of the '99 THX DVD or not...
First test clip (10MB, full HD):
http://www.sendspace.com/file/lxha57
left bicubic resize, right MagiCleanUp
...you know how much I love those stupid names... but it's easier to remember that than, let's say, derainbowing+denoise+sharpening+somethingelse+upscale version 1.54 revision b2... (^^,)
Actual X9's settings:
- Y/C : C-Wide (others are Normal and HR)
- 3D.Y/C: 4 (0 min, 8 max)
- 3D.YNR: 0
(0 min, 8 max)
- 3D.CNR: 0
(0 min, 8 max)
Finally I take out of the box my beloved Pioneer HLD-X9, because it's time to use it for interesting preservations.
I "studied" its settings years ago, and was sure they was right, but nowadays, there are different opinions about that.
Well, I will use the X9's S-Video output, because my capture card internal comb filter is quite awful; so, at the moment I decided to use the following settings:
(0 min, 8 max) (0 min, 8 max)
I'm waiting for your opinions, in particular if you have (or had) this player, or others with the same settings.
Thanks for the input, you are right; I changed those details into the first post.
About what is the right color grading, I wrote my opinion into this post; someone will agree with me, someone else not... but I stopped to trust director's (of photography or of movie) statements like "this is the definitive... right... the one that should be..." some time ago...
Another attempt:
Color wise, is not perfect, but close enough to DVD; but watch the details like clouds... they are blown away on DVD, present on BD/CM.
Like this...
sorry for the bad quality, but ColourMatch'ing two JPEG pictures is not that easy... (^^u)
,^…^, presents Halloween [spoRv] - special preserved or Restored version
| Released projects | Projects in progress | Future projects | Mission & Setup |
Mission: to restore John Carpenter’s Halloween, to recover the 1999 THX DVD color grading, and to add the Criterion laserdisc original soundtrack.
Video sources: 35th anniversary BD; 1999 THX DVD as color reference.
Audio sources: uncompressed PCM captured directly from laserdisc, along with commentary and isolated score from the analog tracks; other soundtracks from BD and DVD.
Subtitles sources: to reflect soundtracks.
Project info:
“Halloween” 35th anniversary Blu-ray is the best version of the movie ever released… except for two things: color grading is different from the acclaimed 1999 THX DVD, and the soundtrack is recreated; infact, the theatrical one was mono. So the 1999 THX DVD video will be used to color regrading the Blu-ray video, while the original PCM mono soundtrack from the laserdisc will be used as main soundtrack; additional commentary and isolated score will be an appreciated addition, I think.
Source Material
Video:
Audio:
Subtitles:
Project status: RELEASED!
Final format: BD-25
Video:
Audio:
Subtitles:
“Partners in crime”:
Jetrell Fo, for the 1999 THX DVD source
Stamper, for the french soundtrack
Prim, for the PCM mono german soundtrack
Chewtobacca, for the DTS 2.0 german soundtrack
Covers:
Blu-ray custom cover (rev. 1.04) (click for larger version):
Blu-ray inside cover (rev 1.00) (click for larger version):
Chewtobacca said:
The 2D BD has a nasty reddish look but no problems related to brightness or contrast that I'm aware of.
So this is an ideal candidate to be treated with ColourMatch.
CatBus said:
Not sure how ColourMatch works exactly, but could it recover lost grain (to the extent that it existed on LD)?
No, the script attempts only to apply the same color grading to a given source, using a color reference. But it's always possible to add some grain after that, even if I'm completely aware that it will never be the same.
Or, simply put, I could always use the laserdisc capture and upscale it... the last results I achieved are quite good, and should work even better with animated material. Further tests will be conducted after the laserdisc captures are done.
If it has clipping white, ColourMatch produces artifacts; it is still possible to replace those shots with upscaled laserdisc shots, though.
The 2D BD has different color grading, it must be investigated if it has the same problems of the 3D BD or not.
I have not the BD yet, but many argue that there are contrast problems... if it's not true, a ColourMatch could be applied to the BD, and I'll use the laserdisc as color reference.
The final format will be upscaled to full HD, if the preliminary tests will be encouraging... just wait some days for the capture! (^^,)
,^…^, presents:
<span style=“font-size: large;”>Disney’s Beauty and the Beast [spoRv]</span>
| PROJECTS: Released | In progress | Future | Mission & Setup |
Mission: to restore Disney’s Beauty and the Beast, to recover its original color grading, and to add the laserdisc original soundtrack.
Video sources: analog video captured directly from Laserdisc, using one of the best laserdisc player ever produced, the Pioneer HLD-X9
Audio sources: uncompressed PCM captured directly from Laserdiscs; other soundtracks from BDs and DVDs.
Subtitles sources: subtitles for all languages.
Project info:
“Beauty and the Beast” was released in Blu-ray but, altough its quality is good, is different from the laserdisc; the color grading is not what it should be, and has massive contrast problems; the laserdisc soundtrack is closer to the original Dolby Surround soundtrack than the BD.
Source Material
Video:
Audio:
Subtitles:
**Project status: RELEASED
**
Final format: BD-25
Video:
1920x1080, 23.976fps, A.R. 1.66:1, AVC encoded 28mbps
Audio:
Subtitles:
Main feature: English, French, German, Italian, Spanish
Commentary: English, French, Italian, Spanish
"Partner in crime":
nirbateman - the project promoter, quality control, soundtracks provider and synchronizer… he did so many things, that he should be considered to be the producer of this release… kudos!
Comments are welcome as usual.