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poppasketti

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1-Jun-2014
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26-Mar-2024
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Post
#1506612
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

dgraham414 said:

At this point, I don’t at all think Halbrand is Sauron.

Eeeeeh I don’t know about that!

I have a list of clues:

  1. Halbrand’s very first line is “The tides of fate are flowing. Yours may be flowing in, or out.” This is something Galadriel says to Frodo when she is tested by the ring in Fellowship. Basically, her deciding NOT to become Sauron.

  2. 30 seconds later, he says “Looks can be deceiving." Very suspicious opening statements by someone who is NOT Sauron the deceiver.

  3. In contrast with the other “unwilling king”, Aragorn, Halbrand has a streak of cruelty, from pushing off his companions on the driftwood to get eaten by the worm to brutally beating up and breaking the bones of the Numenorians in the street fight (even after they were done with him and walking away).

  4. When adrift at sea, Galadriel calls attention to his medallion, of which Halbrand mentions he “found it on a dead man”. I feel like this is the kind of line they put there to show him being funny or chummy, but really we need to consider that it might be the literal truth.

  5. Halbrand’s speech about giving people a “means of mastering their fears so you can master them” feels like a good strategy for corrupting people. I don’t think a true King in Tolkien’s world would subscribe to this type of manipulation.

  6. When Galadriel tells Halbrand about the mutiny of elves she says “they could not distinguish me from the evil I was fighting”. Half a second later, rack focus to Halbrand.

  7. In the same scene, Halbrand says he’s sorry about her brother. It seems like an actual apology. I think what may be happening here is that Sauron may have sincerely tried to start over after the defeat of Morgoth, and since he has the ability to change appearance he intended to disappear in Numenor.

  8. Halbrand is very good at making weapons. I remember from Lord of the Rings that “the hands of a king are the hands of a healer.” We see Aragorn try to heal Frodo with the kingsfoil after he’s stabbed on weathertop, and later he heals Eowyn after the battle. Again, in Tolkien’s world I don’t think a true king’s greatest skills would be smithing and manipulation. That sounds more like someone else.

  9. Adar says he killed Sauron after having sacrificed so many orcs for his experiments. Halbrand seems to remember Adar, but not the other way around. Perhaps Halbrand was previously in another form.

  10. Possibly the biggest clue yet, as Halbrand is walking out of the room, Adar asks “Who are you?” Cut to Halbrand from behind, who pauses slightly, doesn’t answer and then leaves. I feel like this moment wouldn’t exist if we are to take Halbrand’s identity at face value. So what identity would make for a satisfying reveal? My backup idea was the Witch-king, but I don’t think the Witch-king is someone that is revealed rather it is what someone becomes.

  11. After the battle, when Halbrand is talking about the feeling he got fighting alongside Galadriel, he says he wishes he could “bind it to my very being.” That word bind reminds us of “one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.” It’s just too suspicious to be coincidence.

  12. I’m not a makeup expert but I feel like they’ve given Halbrand some heavy eye shadow in such a way that to me he almost looks like an evil-Aragorn. Just waiting for the goatee reveal.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I think if Halbrand is Sauron it would be the most compelling development for Galadriel’s character. It plays into her brothers words, “Sometimes we cannot know [which light to follow] until we have touched the darkness.”

Galadriel has been headstrong and determined all season. She’s also been stubborn and arrogant, and I think she’s in for a rude awakening. She basically dragged Halbrand back to Middle-Earth, gave him an army, and crowned him king, all because of a medallion that he “found on a dead man”. How crazy would it be if Gil-Galad was right that “the same wind that seeks to blow out a fire may also cause its spread”?

Post
#1506050
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

Returning to the idea of whether The Stranger could be Gandalf, I went down a rabbit hole from twitter to reddit to Tolkien’s Last Writings from The Peoples of Middle Earth. There’s a passage about Glorfindel and discusses his meeting Gandalf (posted below). This passage implies that Gandalf may have visited Middle-Earth earlier than is otherwise known, and even that he might have met “others deeper in Middle-earth.” This could suggest that Gandalf may have had early encounter with Hobbits/Harfoots. The big question, I suppose, is why no-one else would know about it, or at least not enough to “record” any of it in ME history. Could it be possible that Gandalf met the harfoots and had an inpact on this story large enough to justify all the screen-time, but in a way that the other peoples who recorded history wouldn’t know about it?

Post
#1505149
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

Whew. Great episode.

I’m a bit fearful about the stranger. Since episode 2 I’d felt he was Gandalf (or a wizard). This episode swings me back towards Sauron (how it seemed when he first landed).

My only hope comes from the song Poppy sings and that’s repeated in the end credits. It’s a variation on a poem Tolkien wrote, that Gandalf sends to Frodo. Gives me some hope.

Post
#1504879
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

NeverarGreat said:

Something that I’m surprised doesn’t get mentioned is how in the Extended version of ROTK, Aragorn literally decapitates an unarmed messenger. This is so far from the book’s portrayal of Aragorn as a noble king that it’s honestly shocking, and for me counts as character assassination.

Man if I could fix this scene I’d finally have my fanedit of ROTK done. I love the idea of its inclusion but don’t understand why they couldn’t use some restraint with this scene. The way the literal “mouth” keeps scoffing and of course Aragorn’s tantrum is very off-putting. I remember back on the IMDB message boards someone suggesting that in their heads they fixed it by saying that the Mouth in the Jackson films is not so much an emissary as someone just taunting and trying to cause pain, basically an orc, so that he deserved the head chopping. It doesn’t work for me anymore though. It’s a bad scene that could’ve been great.

My point is, the films are no untouchable masterpieces, and they’re allowed to take liberties, even ones I vehemently disagree with. I think it’s more productive to approach these adaptations and flights of fancy where they are and in the context of their time, just like the books themselves. And while it’s good and right to point out where they fall short, it’s also good to recognize where they strive to do justice to their material, and in many ways, especially with regards to production, the new series so far succeeds.

This

Post
#1504874
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

Vladius said:

When everything on screen just looks like the modern US, you lose any of that complexity. It takes you out of the story immediately and you’re reminded that it’s a 2022 TV show on Amazon getting marketed to as broad an audience as possible instead of a fictional world with its own history and cultures.

It may take you out of the story immediately, but please do not speak for everyone.

First of all, while Tolkien wrote this as a kind of mythology for England, he didn’t like allegory and so we don’t need to find real-world parallels to justify casting non-white people in this show. And we certainly shouldn’t use black people to represent those that primarily stood with evil in some odd attempt at nuance.

Skin color does not play an important role in the story, but the racial structure and frictions are laid out pretty clearly (Elves, men, dwarves…etc). Tolkien’s writings obviously don’t paint these tensions as a positive but simply a reality, and he champions the moments when these peoples come together.

I find it endlessly disheartening that in a fantasy world that posits the themes of fellowship and faith that a modern audience cannot be trusted to embrace inclusivity in its appearance.

And those that are nauseatingly railing against “wokeness” seem to have no issue with the actor other than that they are black. That’s not good enough. You seem distracted by a perceived agenda behind casting a non-white person, when really you should ask yourself “why not cast a non-white person?”

And if Tolkien truly would roll over in his grave over diverse casting, as some have claimed, then perhaps he is not worth the reverence he is given. Based on his writing, however, I do not believe that to be the case.

Post
#1503426
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

dgraham414, I had the same feeling. The bullying felt odd, reminded me of the Vulcans teasing young Spock in Star Trek 2009. Also, this contradicts Galadriel’s later statements about how wonderful and happy she was in Valinor. It feels like this should be what the Shire was to the Hobbits.

Anyone seen Episode 3 yet? This show is fucking great, not perfect, but way better than I was expecting.

Can’t tell if Superweapon VII is being sarcastic, I’m guessing so? Either way, TheHutt70, just keep digging.

Post
#1503244
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

I fail to see the argument that this “isn’t Tolkien.”

Sure, the story is based on appendices because that’s all they could license, but the tone and mythology feel spot on.
After two episodes, we’ve already gotten to see things I never thought we would, such as the path Frodo and co. took to cross over to Valinor at the end of LOTR. Or Khazad Dum before it was a ruin, when the world was so much younger.

And there’s so much potential yet to come (I haven’t watched the trailers so this me based on 2 eps):

  1. the re-emergence of Sauron in his “fair” form
  2. the dwarves discovery of mithril that leads to the destruction of Moria (ie the waking of a balrog)
  3. potentially the creation of a wizard
  4. of course, the creation of the rings of power, and them backfiring in the same way as the silmarils.
  5. Sauron and perhaps other balrogs in fair form tempting and corrupting the kings of men.

And the opening title sequence is an incredible metaphorical representation of the music of the Maiar, showing how Melkor corrupted it with his dissonance.

This thing is just dripping with the Tolkien lore and I don’t get what the issue is.

Post
#1503160
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

alastair said:

It felt weird that they have Orcs attack the village and they decide to wait another day before leaving, when Orcs like to move and attack at night. I wonder if there’s enough to edit it so it feels like they leave faster.

I mean, Gandalf knew the Enemy was aware of the ring’s presence in the Shire and he told Frodo to leave within a few months… his birthday at the latest!
I think giving everyone a night to spread the word and gather their belongings seems most practical.

Post
#1503060
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

Hehe Nev, you had me for a second too!

I didn’t really find those scenes to be filler, they gave me a chance to observe the characters.

The rock-breaking scene had me wondering if Elrond was letting him win, part of his political strategy to let Durin look tough for his people while showing patience for his moment to speak with Durin alone on the lift.

And the fact that Halbrand so willingly cut away the other castaways shows that he’s no hero, which Galadriel calls him on. I find his character very suspicious. His very first line is “Looks can be deceiving.”

I think there’s a lot here under the surface, it’s just been a long time since this kind of material has been packaged in a fun exterior. GoT/HotD is just so dour (Westworld too) and while I still enjoy it, it feels like it’s using gritty realism in place of meaning. I don’t think it has anything to say other than the brutality of humanity, which these days feels obvious.

That’s not to say Rings of Power is fully working yet, and parts in the beginning are a bit clunky. But I don’t think anything so far has been superfluous.

Post
#1502966
Topic
LOTR: The Rings of Power Spoiler Thread
Time

With Rings of Power and House of the Dragon, I was hoping to dislike one or both or them for the sake of my free time/sleep. Unfortunately, my wife and I like both!

Very different styles obviously, but they feel connected to me.
Both first episodes felt a bit clunky, like they were rushing to capture their audience. And it feels like every fantasy piece since LOTR tries to match the brilliant prologue and it just never works for me. The Game of Thrones cold open worked so well in part because it didn’t do this and instead set the tone.

For Rings, I think it was a great idea to release two episodes up front. As dgraham414 wrote, the pacing and character interactions in episode 2 were much stronger and the show hit its stride. The design and feel or everything is excellent — it actually feels like a younger Middle-Earth in both the visuals and characterizations.

Post
#1490319
Topic
Obi-Wan Kenobi Redux Ideas Thread
Time

This is really beautiful, NFB. You’re right, there’s a lot of good visual storytelling in the direction.

There are so many moments in the show where characters say things out loud that we can clearly see on their faces. I wish they would’ve either cut away before they spoke or shot a version without the line (for example, when Roken changes his mind about helping).

Post
#1490135
Topic
KENOBI: A STAR WARS STORY [The Radical "Help Me Obi-Wan Kenobi" Cut]
Time

I also like the Reva arc, although I understand the need to trim it down. I admit I too was confused about her motivations with Luke, and it was my wife who pointed out that Reva was trying to kill Vader’s children the way he slaughtered the younglings, as “revenge”. Not sure it makes a whole lot of sense since Vader doesn’t know about Luke, but Reva is acting more out of rage than rationality.

I enjoyed the ending and think this is really how the prequels should have ended. The canon stretching doesn’t bother me anymore. I think of each trilogy, series, or standalone film as self-contained entities that are only loosely connected, because the writing, direction, production style, and plot details just don’t match up with each other.

But one piece of canon that I will never understand is why Vader has a castle on Mustafar. Do you think maybe you could end the Palpatine/Vader scene with a profile shot of Vader? It’s nice to hear the Imperial March, but he just looks so silly sitting on his throne in this empty room staring straight at camera in a frustratingly symmetrical wide shot. It just calls too much attention to itself. Like, what was Vader doing 15 seconds after this shot?

Hal 9000 said:

He calls it his ship also in ESB. “Take the princess and the Wookiee to my ship.”

I think they’re remembering the menacing way he said “Bring my shuttle” in ESB, which, for some reason was replaced with a poorly filtered “Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival.”