poppasketti

This is wild stuff! Great work all around. It’s nice to see a lot of activity here!

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Everything Emre1601 said!

I would add for myself that I am one who didn’t really enjoy Rogue One. I liked the concept but found it a weird mix of gritty realism, fan-service, and underdeveloped characters.

I also admit that I never I wanted this kind of show from Star Wars. To me, the tone of the old trilogy was perfect and—-while I wish the story had been better planned—-I mostly enjoyed the soft-reboot sequel trilogy.

So Andor was not something I was looking for at all, and it blew me away. I didn’t realize they could make the grassroots of the rebellion so engaging. I couldn’t believe how thrilling it would be to see a character simply change their mind (“Never more than 12”, somehow my favorite moment of the show).

I loved watching Luthen and Mon Mothma delicately navigate their paths. Genevieve O’reilly was incredible, managing to convey such terror buried under a thin layer of composure.

Seeing how the imperial bureaucrats operate showed us how terrifying they can be, but also exposed their vulnerabilities.

And those lulls you mentioned just made the tension builds more intense and arc climaxes more satisfying.

Even watching Syril Karn battle with his mother gave me glimpses of what a “regular” life might be in this universe, while also knowing the mere fact this idealistic fascist is still in the show had me on edge, worried about what he will do or become.

Just loved the show!

Loved the season finale for all of the reasons mentioned and I don’t need to add to it.

But I came here to say, did anyone notice there was a post-credit scene? I almost shut it off but decided I wanted to listen to the music while I thought about the ending, and then suddenly…

Harmy said:

So, I just watched episode 10 and I’m effing ecstatic about how good this is. It’s definitely the best Disney Star Wars show but in my opinion, it’s best Star Wars anything since at least Return of the Jedi, with the possible exception of the Thrawn trilogy.

I’m glad you said Return of the Jedi and not Empire Strikes Back! My brother often used ESB when saying “this is the best Star Wars since…” and I feel it’s a little unfair to ROTJ. It may be the most flawed of the original trilogy, but it also has some of the best and most important moments. Everything with Luke/Vader/Palpatine is perfect, and if that story arc didn’t land well, we might not have had any Star Wars afterward.

(Double post)

PM sent! (sorry for the delay)

This show is incredible, and seems to just keep building on top of itself. The latest episode feels like the first mid-arc episode that had a true ending.

Seeing Kino (Serkis) come around after facing up what they kind of suspected already (that none of them were getting out) was exhilarating. When he finally answered Andor’s question about the guards, I have to admit I was pumped.

I can’t say anything that hasn’t already been said about the acting, production, and storytelling. Just love it all!

Wow that works much better with the classic map style. Agreed it’s not necessary but for this show it would totally fit.

NeverarGreat said:

Now that Season One has ended, I think Poppasketti can take a bow 😉

Why, thank you! So happy my late night list-making wasn’t in vain.

Overall thoughts about the season: I liked it. Didn’t love it, but the effort is there and I appreciate parts of every storyline. I’ll certainly tune in for season two and see what Sauron is up to with his new volcano.

I agree with this exactly. Some of the elements worked really well, and overall I’m excited for season 2. I really think they paid of Galadriel’s storyline as set up. Everything with Finrod and Gil-Galad’s warning really came to fruition in the end and was not simply flowery language. I may be in the minority, but I also liked the Harfoot/Gandalf/wizard storyline, as it provided something I never expected to see: the early development of a new being. It may not be canon, but I found it a compelling alternative to the wizards simply arriving on a boat. I also just found his fear and child-like nature with Nori to just be constantly heart-breaking, but that’s me I guess!

I think my issues mainly stem from the pacing. The passage of time felt very inconsistent, sometimes too fast and sometimes too slow. Lord of the Rings did a good job of cutting around enough, allowing time to pass in each storyline so things felt like they were flowing forward together. The battle episode, Udun, was great but I felt some of the Numenor parts of it should have come in the previous episode so that they had more time to travel offscreen and build up the anticipation of their arrival. I also would have liked to see more than one episode of Celebrimbor/Halbrand/Galadriel to draw out that suspense a little more.

I hope in the 2nd season they can really find their footing, but I do feel a lot of this is really well-rooted in the spirit of Tolkien despite the criticisms.

RogueLeader said:

Was it this past episode that ended with the title card switching from the Southlands to spooky voice, MoRdOr!?!?! Totally cheesy. Felt like the volcano in the distance spoke for itself.

Man I have so many thoughts but so little time! But yes, the latest episode, #7, ended with this. It also had the Balrog reveal, which to me, was to me was terribly lame. I think these last 5 minutes is really was hurt the episode. I just couldn’t believe it, after what to me had been a show with a lot of grace and subtlety (for the most part). A quick fanedit fix for the Balrog might be to simply have the leaf burn up and then cut to black with a short growl of the Balrog. More of a tease than a full reveal.

Overall, I do think the calamitous 6th episode could have had more consequences, Arondir and/or Bronwyn could have died (would be interesting to see how Theo would respond), Miriel perhaps could have died as well. I just felt like too major of an event for every major character to make it through.

Anyway, overall, I’m still very much enjoying the show, and really hoping the finale sticks the landing so we have a good feeling and anticipation for season 2.

Completely agree, Peter Pan. Felt like some wasted opportunities, lost momentum.

dgraham, hehe!

dgraham414 said:

At this point, I don’t at all think Halbrand is Sauron.

Eeeeeh I don’t know about that!

I have a list of clues:

1. Halbrand’s very first line is “The tides of fate are flowing. Yours may be flowing in, or out.” This is something Galadriel says to Frodo when she is tested by the ring in Fellowship. Basically, her deciding NOT to become Sauron.

2. 30 seconds later, he says “Looks can be deceiving." Very suspicious opening statements by someone who is NOT Sauron the deceiver.

3. In contrast with the other “unwilling king”, Aragorn, Halbrand has a streak of cruelty, from pushing off his companions on the driftwood to get eaten by the worm to brutally beating up and breaking the bones of the Numenorians in the street fight (even after they were done with him and walking away).

4. When adrift at sea, Galadriel calls attention to his medallion, of which Halbrand mentions he “found it on a dead man”. I feel like this is the kind of line they put there to show him being funny or chummy, but really we need to consider that it might be the literal truth.

5. Halbrand’s speech about giving people a “means of mastering their fears so you can master them” feels like a good strategy for corrupting people. I don’t think a true King in Tolkien’s world would subscribe to this type of manipulation.

6. When Galadriel tells Halbrand about the mutiny of elves she says “they could not distinguish me from the evil I was fighting”. Half a second later, rack focus to Halbrand.

7. In the same scene, Halbrand says he’s sorry about her brother. It seems like an actual apology. I think what may be happening here is that Sauron may have sincerely tried to start over after the defeat of Morgoth, and since he has the ability to change appearance he intended to disappear in Numenor.

8. Halbrand is very good at making weapons. I remember from Lord of the Rings that “the hands of a king are the hands of a healer.” We see Aragorn try to heal Frodo with the kingsfoil after he’s stabbed on weathertop, and later he heals Eowyn after the battle. Again, in Tolkien’s world I don’t think a true king’s greatest skills would be smithing and manipulation. That sounds more like someone else.

9. Adar says he killed Sauron after having sacrificed so many orcs for his experiments. Halbrand seems to remember Adar, but not the other way around. Perhaps Halbrand was previously in another form.

10. Possibly the biggest clue yet, as Halbrand is walking out of the room, Adar asks “Who are you?” Cut to Halbrand from behind, who pauses slightly, doesn’t answer and then leaves. I feel like this moment wouldn’t exist if we are to take Halbrand’s identity at face value. So what identity would make for a satisfying reveal? My backup idea was the Witch-king, but I don’t think the Witch-king is someone that is revealed rather it is what someone becomes.

11. After the battle, when Halbrand is talking about the feeling he got fighting alongside Galadriel, he says he wishes he could “bind it to my very being.” That word bind reminds us of “one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.” It’s just too suspicious to be coincidence.

12. I’m not a makeup expert but I feel like they’ve given Halbrand some heavy eye shadow in such a way that to me he almost looks like an evil-Aragorn. Just waiting for the goatee reveal.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I think if Halbrand is Sauron it would be the most compelling development for Galadriel’s character. It plays into her brothers words, “Sometimes we cannot know [which light to follow] until we have touched the darkness.”

Galadriel has been headstrong and determined all season. She’s also been stubborn and arrogant, and I think she’s in for a rude awakening. She basically dragged Halbrand back to Middle-Earth, gave him an army, and crowned him king, all because of a medallion that he “found on a dead man”. How crazy would it be if Gil-Galad was right that “the same wind that seeks to blow out a fire may also cause its spread”?

Returning to the idea of whether The Stranger could be Gandalf, I went down a rabbit hole from twitter to reddit to Tolkien’s Last Writings from The Peoples of Middle Earth. There’s a passage about Glorfindel and discusses his meeting Gandalf (posted below). This passage implies that Gandalf may have visited Middle-Earth earlier than is otherwise known, and even that he might have met “others deeper in Middle-earth.” This could suggest that Gandalf may have had early encounter with Hobbits/Harfoots. The big question, I suppose, is why no-one else would know about it, or at least not enough to “record” any of it in ME history. Could it be possible that Gandalf met the harfoots and had an inpact on this story large enough to justify all the screen-time, but in a way that the other peoples who recorded history wouldn’t know about it?

Udûn

Also, if we got nothing else from this series but this scene, I might actually say it would have been worth it:
https://twitter.com/myelessar/status/1573447041040240656?s=20&t=h72e2sZLfRLUf8A_8SOZow

Whew. Great episode.

I’m a bit fearful about the stranger. Since episode 2 I’d felt he was Gandalf (or a wizard). This episode swings me back towards Sauron (how it seemed when he first landed).

My only hope comes from the song Poppy sings and that’s repeated in the end credits. It’s a variation on a poem Tolkien wrote, that Gandalf sends to Frodo. Gives me some hope.

Well said, Nev. Today’s the only day I couldn’t take a lunch break to watch so I can’t wait until the little one goes down for bedtime!

NeverarGreat said:

Something that I’m surprised doesn’t get mentioned is how in the Extended version of ROTK, Aragorn literally decapitates an unarmed messenger. This is so far from the book’s portrayal of Aragorn as a noble king that it’s honestly shocking, and for me counts as character assassination.

Man if I could fix this scene I’d finally have my fanedit of ROTK done. I love the idea of its inclusion but don’t understand why they couldn’t use some restraint with this scene. The way the literal “mouth” keeps scoffing and of course Aragorn’s tantrum is very off-putting. I remember back on the IMDB message boards someone suggesting that in their heads they fixed it by saying that the Mouth in the Jackson films is not so much an emissary as someone just taunting and trying to cause pain, basically an orc, so that he deserved the head chopping. It doesn’t work for me anymore though. It’s a bad scene that could’ve been great.

My point is, the films are no untouchable masterpieces, and they’re allowed to take liberties, even ones I vehemently disagree with. I think it’s more productive to approach these adaptations and flights of fancy where they are and in the context of their time, just like the books themselves. And while it’s good and right to point out where they fall short, it’s also good to recognize where they strive to do justice to their material, and in many ways, especially with regards to production, the new series so far succeeds.

This

Vladius said:

When everything on screen just looks like the modern US, you lose any of that complexity. It takes you out of the story immediately and you’re reminded that it’s a 2022 TV show on Amazon getting marketed to as broad an audience as possible instead of a fictional world with its own history and cultures.

It may take you out of the story immediately, but please do not speak for everyone.

First of all, while Tolkien wrote this as a kind of mythology for England, he didn’t like allegory and so we don’t need to find real-world parallels to justify casting non-white people in this show. And we certainly shouldn’t use black people to represent those that primarily stood with evil in some odd attempt at nuance.

Skin color does not play an important role in the story, but the racial structure and frictions are laid out pretty clearly (Elves, men, dwarves…etc). Tolkien’s writings obviously don’t paint these tensions as a positive but simply a reality, and he champions the moments when these peoples come together.

I find it endlessly disheartening that in a fantasy world that posits the themes of fellowship and faith that a modern audience cannot be trusted to embrace inclusivity in its appearance.

And those that are nauseatingly railing against “wokeness” seem to have no issue with the actor other than that they are black. That’s not good enough. You seem distracted by a perceived agenda behind casting a non-white person, when really you should ask yourself “why not cast a non-white person?”

And if Tolkien truly would roll over in his grave over diverse casting, as some have claimed, then perhaps he is not worth the reverence he is given. Based on his writing, however, I do not believe that to be the case.

dgraham414, I had the same feeling. The bullying felt odd, reminded me of the Vulcans teasing young Spock in Star Trek 2009. Also, this contradicts Galadriel’s later statements about how wonderful and happy she was in Valinor. It feels like this should be what the Shire was to the Hobbits.

Anyone seen Episode 3 yet? This show is fucking great, not perfect, but way better than I was expecting.

Can’t tell if Superweapon VII is being sarcastic, I’m guessing so? Either way, TheHutt70, just keep digging.

I fail to see the argument that this “isn’t Tolkien.”

Sure, the story is based on appendices because that’s all they could license, but the tone and mythology feel spot on.
After two episodes, we’ve already gotten to see things I never thought we would, such as the path Frodo and co. took to cross over to Valinor at the end of LOTR. Or Khazad Dum before it was a ruin, when the world was so much younger.

And there’s so much potential yet to come (I haven’t watched the trailers so this me based on 2 eps):

1. the re-emergence of Sauron in his “fair” form
2. the dwarves discovery of mithril that leads to the destruction of Moria (ie the waking of a balrog)
3. potentially the creation of a wizard
4. of course, the creation of the rings of power, and them backfiring in the same way as the silmarils.
5. Sauron and perhaps other balrogs in fair form tempting and corrupting the kings of men.

And the opening title sequence is an incredible metaphorical representation of the music of the Maiar, showing how Melkor corrupted it with his dissonance.

This thing is just dripping with the Tolkien lore and I don’t get what the issue is.

Oh so sorry guys, never mind. I didn’t realize this was woke trash. My bad. If I had know the teaser had a bad YouTube ratio I wouldn’t have watched.

alastair said:

It felt weird that they have Orcs attack the village and they decide to wait another day before leaving, when Orcs like to move and attack at night. I wonder if there’s enough to edit it so it feels like they leave faster.

I mean, Gandalf knew the Enemy was aware of the ring’s presence in the Shire and he told Frodo to leave within a few months… his birthday at the latest!
I think giving everyone a night to spread the word and gather their belongings seems most practical.

Hehe Nev, you had me for a second too!

I didn’t really find those scenes to be filler, they gave me a chance to observe the characters.

The rock-breaking scene had me wondering if Elrond was letting him win, part of his political strategy to let Durin look tough for his people while showing patience for his moment to speak with Durin alone on the lift.

And the fact that Halbrand so willingly cut away the other castaways shows that he’s no hero, which Galadriel calls him on. I find his character very suspicious. His very first line is “Looks can be deceiving.”

I think there’s a lot here under the surface, it’s just been a long time since this kind of material has been packaged in a fun exterior. GoT/HotD is just so dour (Westworld too) and while I still enjoy it, it feels like it’s using gritty realism in place of meaning. I don’t think it has anything to say other than the brutality of humanity, which these days feels obvious.

That’s not to say Rings of Power is fully working yet, and parts in the beginning are a bit clunky. But I don’t think anything so far has been superfluous.