poita

CatBus said:

rodneyfaile said:

I just thought I would have a conversation with a few people knowledgeable about the subject. I didn’t know it was already talked about and was to never to be brought up again. I thought people here would enjoy talking about it.

Bleh. Just answer the question. If there are follow-ups, start a new thread.

Harmy: Blu-ray footage of trilogy despecialized using film elements, etc. The quality you’d expect from a Blu-ray restoration, some (usually unnoticeable) SE elements still present. Complete trilogy available.

Verta/Legacy: Professional restoration of Star Wars from multiple Technicolor prints. Not available to the public. An attempt to archive the film legally for the benefit of future generations.

Whatever Negative1 is calling himself this week (4K77 and whatnot): Scans of faded theatrical prints of Star Wars and Empire (Jedi eventually?), color-corrected. Star Wars and Empire available, looks more like it did in theatres, no SE elements (except maybe individual frames for GOUT-syncing?), but not the sort of quality you’d expect from a Blu-ray restoration (print source vs negative source, and the prints aren’t in pristine condition). Works well with Harmy’s Grindhouse release of Jedi.

And don’t forget Poita – like Negative1 but with Verta’s professional resources, but nothing available just yet 😉 And Puggo – 16mm prints just as lo-fi as they ought to be, Jedi still pending (any day now, Puggo!).

There really should be a sticky thread in the Restoration discussion that has an overview like that which can be edited and kept up to date.
The project threads are long nightmares of things to get through to work out which project is doing what.

Fang Zei said:

poita said:

Yeah, without the original Director/Producer/Writer (GL) on board, it makes it more unlikely for a third party like Criterion to have a go at it.

Also, I think people underestimate just how much George hates the originals vs the Special Editions. There is no way he ever would have double dipped and released them. I think part of it is also tied to Marcia and their fallout.

George actually laughed with glee when shown Han stepping on Jabba’s tail for the first time, and considered it one of the best things they had ever done. He loves the vision of the SE, and that’s cool, he is allowed to, but you really have to understand just how much he doesn’t want the originals to exist anymore.

Anyway, I’m sure everyone has their own opinion on this stuff, mine is that it isn’t going to happen so we need to do it properly, others will be convinced it will happen, and honestly I hope they are right, but I don’t believe there is a shred of evidence or even a scenario where it could be vaguely probable to happen.

In regards to Marcia, are you referring to the theory that she got a cut of the OT’s sales until the SE came along and negated it? I thought that rumor was debunked. Unless you’re referring to something else.

No, not the money, the personal stuff. I’ll dig out the references.

Yeah, without the original Director/Producer/Writer (GL) on board, it makes it more unlikely for a third party like Criterion to have a go at it.

Also, I think people underestimate just how much George hates the originals vs the Special Editions. There is no way he ever would have double dipped and released them. I think part of it is also tied to Marcia and their fallout.

George actually laughed with glee when shown Han stepping on Jabba’s tail for the first time, and considered it one of the best things they had ever done. He loves the vision of the SE, and that’s cool, he is allowed to, but you really have to understand just how much he doesn’t want the originals to exist anymore.

Anyway, I’m sure everyone has their own opinion on this stuff, mine is that it isn’t going to happen so we need to do it properly, others will be convinced it will happen, and honestly I hope they are right, but I don’t believe there is a shred of evidence or even a scenario where it could be vaguely probable to happen.

“Did it stop Ridley Scott from remastering those cuts and releasing them together?? Nope”

The difference here is that Ridley Scott wanted to do it, whereas George Lucas and Kennedy actively don’t want it to happen.

It would have made perfect sense to have the BD boxset include the OUT if it was a matter of it being slightly more profitable to do so.

"Another example is how a few years ago Kino released a cut of the silent film Metropolis with restored footage not seen since the original release. "
I was involved with the Kino release, the restoration cost was bugger all and there were no royalties to be paid. Prints were borrowed from collectors, it was a simple, quick money grab that only had to move a few units to be profitable, and not a single person out there that didn’t want it to happen. Again totally different situation to the OUT.

Companies suck, for Disney to care about something, it has to be worth many, many millions for them to bother. If an SE 4K release would make $300 million or $305 million by taking the risk of packing in an OUT, then they would never take the risk. $5 million return is pocket change, and a risk is always a risk. It will cost them millions to restore the OUT, even with having the scans in place, the sound restoration on SW for the SE cost $8 million alone.

I want it to happen, but can’t conceive of a universe where it will happen in the next ten years.

There are a ton of LFL people at Siggraph this year, I’ll be canvassing all of them, and already know quite a few, but I am pretty sure the answer will be the same as that from the ones I have already spoken to. Not a ‘maybe’ or a ‘no’ or a ‘no comment’ but a ‘huh?’

What was the final total?

Possessed said:
The ironic thing was he was using it to describe the surround setting in LOZ ocarina of time as fake surround. Which is ironic because it’s pro logic system it uses for surround is fantastic I actually used it to test my surround set up.

I have no idea what you just wrote…

How many names did the original petition get?
From memory it was less than 90,000

For an online petition.

And how many of those names would pirate it and not buy it?

Without a big marketing campaign, selling the OUT versions would be extremely difficult to get a real ‘spike in profits’.
Any marketing campaign would also potentially be saying that the SE is, well rubbish, which is a tricky thing for a company to say about their own product which is still making them money.

The big question is, how much extra money would an OUT 4K release bring over and above just a 4K SE release? I can’t see it being very much, and by the time the restoration and marketing money required to educate the populace about what the hell an OUT version is, and make them want it, well, I can’t see the money argument for Disney.

To them, there are a handful of crackpots out there that want the original versions, they also know that no matter what they release at least half those people would complain about it being too restored, not restored enough, too grainy, too clean or a thousand other niggly complaints.

Outside of these forums, and a few hundred posts on other sites when it is mentioned, where do you see the clamouring for people to buy the originals of a movie that is now over 40 years old? Most petitions I have seen get anywhere for 7 to a hundred or so signatures. The petition here ran for years and didn’t get 100,000 people.
The people that saw the original Star Wars in the cinema in their 20s are now in their 60s. The people that saw it as young kids in the cinema are now approaching 50.

I will talk with more people at Siggraph, but honestly, everyone I speak to is honestly baffled, it isn’t on anyone’s radar there, even slightly. Normally if you probe about something that is even being vaguely considered, the answer is “I can’t talk about that”, but this was just “huh?”.

I want them to release an OUT, I’d love to be able to get the 4K scans they have, but I can’t think of a financial reason for them to do so.

The only scenario I can see is if someone like Criterion approached them, with a solid business case for a Criterion style release. Something that Disney doesn’t have to confuse their marketing with, that they can keep at arms length, and that has money coming in from a third party company.

I can’t see that happening either, where is the evidence for the demand? I certainly wouldn’t bet the cost of a major release on a market that can’t get 90,000 online signatures for something.

For the last 20 years, the SE is the Star Wars people have watched and known and loved. For many, it was the one they saw in the cinema. It is their Star Wars, and has been for two decades.

It isn’t my Star Wars, and it irks me badly, but I can’t see evidence of enough demand out there to make a business case for Disney to risk money and ‘brand confusion’ in the marketplace by committing to a 4K restored OUT, unless there is a sudden and huge upswell in people asking for it.

Yotsuya, my gall bladder was removed a few years ago, no issues at all since it left the building.
The current stuff is an ongoing battle.
Anyway, enough of the morbid stuff 😃

The calibration to an it-8 target is the problem. You need a target for the specific film type you are trying to scan. A Kodak ASA 50 calibration target will only screw you up a little if you are scanning Fuji ASA 50, but when it comes to cine film, you absolutely need to know, and cater for the stock response you are working with.
Using the incorrect colour target, does as you mention, adjust the internl scanner processing, and almost ensures the colour is off.
The film response curves are radically different on feature film stocks to print stocks, and IB is its own thing again, the colour, particularly outside the mid-tones will be skewed. The DMin and DMax is wildly off, as are the response curves compared to a say Fuji Provia 100F it8 target.

If you are viewing the prints projected with the correct light source, at the correct FL on a screen in a darkened room, and matching to what you see, then I agree, you can adjust the scan as best as you can to match what you are seeing on the projected print. If you are looking at the film with a light box surrounded by ambient light, then the colour perception is going to be way off.
Colour is a slippery beast.
Of course the software used to view the results and monitor calibration is another issue, but I’m sure you are running calibrated monitors and software.
It is amazing that even different browsers on the same calibrated PC will give different looking images on OT.COM, sometimes radically so, I’ve gone to comment on someone’s colour corrections in the forums a few times, only to realise that viewing images inside a browser on a forum is completely different to how their images look on their computer.

I love the work you are doing, but when downloading the images, and watching the IB prints here, the colour looks quite different.

doubleofive said:

Or, any kind of restoration would be done internally to LFL and general Disney restorationists wouldn’t know anything about it.

By Disney, I also included LFL. I know a few of the small number of people there that are involved in restoration. Film restoration is a small community, we pretty much all know each other, and the ones you don’t already know, you tend to meet at Siggraph etc.

I would love it if they came out tomorrow and said they were going to do an OT, but it isn’t even vaguely on anyone’s radar.

Yeah, my gallbladder went a couple of years ago.

Was probably too much pudding!!

I bit the bullet and contacted everyone I know at Disney, that is in any way related to film restoration. The answer every time wasn’t a ‘can’t say’ or ‘no comment’ but more a baffled “Original Versions? No, no-one is assigned to anything like that” or variations on that theme.
I don’t think they have any plans at all for an original release, or at least nothing in the next five years, things could always change, but nothing appears to be even vaguely on the drawing board.

With that in mind, and the awful feeling in my gut that the SE of Star Wars has now been around for longer than the time between the first screening of Star Wars in 1977 and the Special Edition of ANH being released, I am putting together a team of professional restoration people from companies I work for and have worked for in the past, to restore the damn thing from the available prints, in 4K at a much higher quality level than we have been able to do before. The fan base has achieved amazing things, but so much more can be done now.
Starting with Empire as it is the one about to disappear due to print fade, and then Star Wars, and finally Jedi.
There are places in the world where the Star Wars copyright runs out within the next decade, I feel it is important that a proper, professional restoration takes place now, and is held until the copyright expires, to ensure that the original theatrical versions are not lost. Also that the originals are available, and restored for anyone studying film history, or researchers to be able to use as a definitive version, representative of the films as they were in 1977, 1980 and 1983.
I know many love the Special Editions, and I don’t begrudge their existence, but film history is also important to preserve.

I also have a personal health deadline that is approaching slowly, and I want to ensure this gets done, even if I can’t continue. I have registered an official archive, which lets us hold prints and restore them, I am getting some help to get the online side of things up and running, but hopefully by the end of next month, we will have it all up and running.
More news soon.

Whist these are really cool, the scanner is not designed for IB Tech, and doesn’t have the correct light source, sensor, or post processing LUTs available to get it to be accurate to a projected print.
It is a cool thing to do, but it isn’t going to be accurate, even the response curve of the sensor is going to be considerably off for this film type.

Actually it is currently 3 degrees below zero, middle of winter here.

Yes, Harmy has the scans, and will be using them for future despecialised editions. Adywan is also using them for his Revisited projects.

I am taking a small break from Empire to get THX1138 finished off, and then will return to it.
I also have an operation coming up later this month, and another mid July, so will be out of action for a little bit.

I can scan 126 😃

I know people have already posted this, but it was confirmed in a digital bits interview a few months ago: (https://tr.im/1c09C)
"We’ve essentially confirmed that Disney’s current 4K scan of the film is the most recent revised version (essentially the latest “special edition”), not the original theatrical edition. What’s more, Disney’s director of Library Restoration and Preservation, Theo Gluck, held a special event at Ohio State University’s Wexner Center for the Arts last night, a presentation called Animation Restoration at Walt Disney Studios. Gluck was asked there about Star Wars and reported that the original cut negative for the film currently exists in its “SE” configuration only."
When asked if there were any plans for an OT restoration, the answer was no:
"Disney’s director of Library Restoration and Preservation Theo Gluck, and 20th Century Fox’s Senior VP of Library and Tech Services Shawn Belston have confirmed to the outlet that no such work on a reconstruction has begun."
https://tr.im/1c09C

More recently, about 16 minutes into this interview, Kathleen Kennedy seems to rule it out:
https://omny.fm/shows/steele-wars/ep-131-3-star-wars-celebration-orlando-day-2-the-l

So, it looks like the will just isn’t there.

SilverWook said:

I’m sure Disney appreciates preserving their film assets. They have worked on Song Of The South, even if they’re not going to let anyone see it before 2525. 😉

Disney recently said tht the OT negs are still all cut to the SE and that they had no plans to change that.
They did say that they had scanned all of the elements that they had, including the removed OT elements, but that there were no plans to reconform to create a restored original trilogy.

So although what remains of the wonder that I had when first seeing Star Wars still remains, I find it hard to hold out any hope that they will ever restore and release an Original Trilogy.
It will very shortly be the case that the Special Editions will have been out for longer than the Original Versions were before the SE came along.

It is frustrating, because with the technology available now, a full commercial OT restoration of ALL THREE films could be done for under a million USD and by people who really know the film.
(1/8th of what they spent restoring just the soundtrack a few years back)
There is almost no chance they couldn’t recoup that, especially if they did a limited Cinema release as well.
The company I work for could complete each film within about three months if the funding was there, it is such a shame that Disney does not want to do it.

I resolve you can use the colour wheels to adjust the colour tint in the shadows, mids and highs. It is pretty easy, but a lot easier to have precise control if you use a control surface, or a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse.
I’d recommend downloading the software and seeing if your computer can run it. The software has a free version that will do more than you are likely to need.
The Studio version is $299, the base version is $0.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/au/products/davinciresolve
Scroll to the end for the download options.

If you are just learning, then get a decent GPU (Radeon RX480 or Nvidia GTX1060 as a base level) and download Davinci Resolve Free edition.
V14 is still in beta and buggy, 12.5 is stable and very good , but 14 is a lot faster.

Then go get some introductory tutorials, and then buy The Color Correction Handbook (https://www.amazon.com/Color-Correction-Handbook-Professional-Techniques/dp/0321929667/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495443334)

Colour correction really requires a lot of different skills, studying colour science would be a good idea, and to do it properly, you will require a separate broadcast monitor, output card and calibration probe.
But to get into it, a Mac or PC, a decent GPU and the free version Davinci Resolve (that used to cost Ninety THousand Dollars!) will let you use the same tools as the professionals and see if it is something you want to get into.

Well seeing as there are no surviving original Alien prints that are not fading, I think this is a really important project to get done.

I’ll send you a PM, I hope enough people chip in to get this done before the prints are all faded too far to be salvageable.

Looks good, how many reels are there in total?

It was damn ants, they decided to setup a nest inside the nice warm modem 😃

Sorry for everyone waiting on replies from me, my VDSL modem has died, I’m looking to buy a replacement, restricted to free internet at the town library at the moment!

Another very quick test with new settings.
https://we.tl/Og9PVhOQCM

No colour correction done yet other than adjusting levels to allow restoration.