pleasehello

Broom Kid said:

Bounding into Comics is a terrible website that probably shouldn’t be getting eyeballs or attention from anyone. It’s essentially a mouthpiece for some of the absolute worst elements of “geek culture” or “fandom” in general.

It’s essentially Breitbart or OANN for “fanboys”

Thanks for saying something to this effect. I appreciate the linked interview with Rian Johnson, but the “article” reads more like a fan forum complaint:

“However, radically changing characters that are part of a much larger narrative doesn’t work on audiences. It doesn’t work with Hux and it most certainly doesn’t work on Luke Skywalker…”

This is what passes for journalism now? Give me a break.

So Rey is the daughter of Palpatine’s clone, making her more akin to his daughter rather than his granddaughter?

I’m assuming this novelization is just a desperate attempt to make sense of the movie rather than the movie being a watered-down version of the book, yes?

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

OutboundFlight said:

Overall, I think a lot of the hate towards TLJ comes to… ok I’m sorry for bringing this quote up again… but your subversion of expectations.

TLJ set some concepts up and I think maybe in part of the constant debate that’s ensued over the past two years, the majority has come to a basic conclusion of what Episode 9 must do. Without considering RJ left things very open.
–Rey should struggle with being no one
–Rey should find a balance between the old and new
–Rey should rebuild the Jedi Order

I understand your point of view. It is kind of hypocritical that TLJ fans constantly say, “You just didn’t like TLJ because your fan theories didn’t come true!” while simultaneously making fan theories about TROS and being upset when they don’t come true.

Incorrect. For instance, thinking Rey should be a nobody in TROS wasn’t a “theory.” It was a fact that was established in TLJ that they reversed. That’s completely different.

In the same way thinking Luke should be the son of a Great Fallen Jedi wasn’t a “theory”, but a fact that was established in ANH that they reversed?

But it’s not the same. Rey’s entire story in TLJ centered around her parentage and her eventual acceptance that they were nobodies and bums. Most of this was undone by the Palpatine reveal in TROS.

If the entire first Star Wars movie was about Luke searching for his father only to discover toward the end that he’s dead, and then discover in the next movie that he’s alive and he’s Darth Vader, then it’d be the same.

NeverarGreat said:

If she were merely going there to bury the past it wouldn’t necessarily be an issue, but the name implies a connection with this isolation that she will never be rid of. She both does and does not return to society simultaneously, and this is why I find it so frustrating.

You’re giving way more thought to her assumption of the Skywalker name than the filmmakers ever did.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Mocata said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Mocata said:

Vader’s redemption kind of comes out of nowhere. But it doesn’t matter unless you expect a fully realised villain, with many facets and deep characterisation. The Empire might seem like fascist super state, but meaningful comparisons to real historical figures are not really appropriate. It’s just Star Wars.

All the more reason why Trek is the superior Star franchise.

Maybe once, not so much these days.

Difference is modern Trek doesn’t retroactively ruin what came before. At least not for me.

Have you seen the new Picard show?

Anakin Starkiller said:

Because it’s not centered around the Skywalker family, and I wish Lucasfilm would realize that. It’s not the Skywalker Saga, it’s just the Saga.

“The Skywalker Saga” is retroactive marketing bullcrap that they used to try and promote the final film. The sequel trilogy is not about the Skywalker family, nor should it be. No, Rey shouldn’t be a blood-related Skywalker because that would be reductive and stupid. Even more reductive and stupid than making her a Palpatine.

smpearce1981 said:

poppasketti said:

Ok, made slight updates to the Rebel Ring shot timing and Finn speeder targeting screen (even a tweak to the Finn cockpit shot), which is posted to the same vimeo links. Currently, I’m rendering out a new workprint, which should be ready tonight and posted tomorrow. Thank you!

Hey Poppa,

I promise I’ll leave you alone soon, but I just caught something else that I thought I might present to you?

It’s not so much of a change, but actually the undoing of a change?

The former deleted scene of Finn and Rose abourd the shuttle immediately after their escape from the ‘Supremacy’:-

That’s always stuck out to me. There’s nothing wrong with it, at least technically, but it just doesn’t ‘sit right’

I can’t tell if it’s tonally, where it’s just a quiet dialogue moment after such a bombastic sequence feeling jarring?

Or whether it’s unfinished VFX? Where the first shot appears too static and like a cheap set? (I don’t know whether adding in a reflection to indicate a screen/canopy would help with that?)

But something isn’t quite right, so I wondered whether it was worth asking the question on whether the information/dialogue delivered justifies it’s inclusion?

I’m sure some could argue that it plays into Finn’s arc of acceptance and belonging amongst the resistance by him stating that they are heading to ‘where they belong’ but I’m not sure that theme is part of Finn’s journey in TLJ? It’s more of an un-needed carry over from TFA.

By the start of TLJ he’s already part of the inner circle and the only reason he tries to leave and gets mistaken for a deserter is out of concern for Rey and not wanting her to return to the danger, so I don’t think his sense of belonging is relevant and in need of affirming within this scene and hence it could be deemed redundant?

To compound the above, part of me wonders if taking it back to the original edit here actually adds some tension when Finn and Rose approach the bunker on Crait?

Not that it was ever super suspenseful, but having enough time to almost forget that Finn and Rose are out there and potentially enroute means that when they do show up it’s more of a homecoming/surprise/crowd pleaser?

There’s also the question of whether deescalating their situation here is a false flag(?), considering the next time we see them they are inexplicably being pursued by two TIE Fighters?

I know you could argue that the original sequence doesn’t explain this either, but aside from escaping the capital ship explosion, their fates were unresolved and there wasn’t any overt indication that they were fully out of peril? So, I quite like that by the time they are properly re-united with their friends, they have been through quite an ordeal!

They just survived near execution and a capital ship explosion, launched a daring escape in an enemy shuttle, been chased by TIE’s where they narrowly manage to get home but not before getting involved in a fiery crash and then coming under under friendly fire. They go through all of this before they are afforded any sort of respite.

I think giving them the breather that this scene allows not only slows the momentum out of the movie at a point that doesn’t feel organic but also potentially detracts from the character’s resilience all the while without really bringing anything new to the table?

I don’t know, I’m sorry to bombard you with ideas for changes etc, but I feel you are really getting into the final run on this project now, so I figure now might have just been a good time to go over things that have just sort of been there, never offending but not really bringing anything either?

I’ve got no issue with the scene itself or it’s presence in the cut but I do know that every time I see it, I do notice it, it feels added in and pulls me out of the flow of events whereas nothing in the rest of the movie does that, so I wondered what your thoughts on it’s continued inclusion were?

UPDATE:-

I just read through the ‘changes log’ to see if I could get behind the reason of the inclusion of the scene.

I see now that it’s a callback or in service to the earlier deleted scene that was restored between Finn and Poe.

That makes sense, and I can see the logic here…but I can honestly say that I had never put those pieces together!?

As I have never made that connection on any of the multiple times I have watched this, is it possible that that first moment between Finn and Poe just doesn’t resonate enough to carry all the way through to that point in the film and then hit it’s mark? If not, does it still warrant the callback in what may otherwise be a potentially redundant scene?

I think the first deleted scene has a LOT of merit. It’s dynamic, fast paced and has some really good, snappy character interaction and it serves the purpose of bringing Finn up to speed on the events he wasn’t party to at the end of TFA.

To offer my objective opinion, I think it’s THIS scene that is the payoff, where Finn’s arc from TFA is fully resolved (even though it’s delivered in a way that makes it seem like it’s no big deal…)

We, the audience have never really had any doubts about where Finn’s allegiances lie or whether or not he’s a coward, so maybe it’s Ok that the movie doesn’t make a big song and dance about it either and just moves on to other things by the 20 min mark?

It’s actually within the spirit of TLJ to drop the threads and conventions it doesn’t have any interest in exploring, so maybe this approach is right on point? 😃

I think if you’re going to excise the Phasma fight, the inclusion of this scene is pretty necessary to complete Finn’s story, such as it is. His story isn’t strong in TLJ, so similar to TFA that I didn’t get the distinction the first couple times I watched it. So his arc isn’t about being accepted by the Resistance (which we see in the first deleted scene with Poe), but rather about accepting his own place within the Resistance and that he is a part of their struggle. You’re right in that after TFA the audience never really doubts his allegiance, but the film does attempt to plant that doubt immediately and then resolve it toward the end. Finn’s story comes to a head in the theatrical after he bests Phasma and refers to himself as “rebel scum”. So in absence of that line, I think the subsequent deleted scene becomes much more necessary in solidifying his character arc in the film.

nl0428 said:

This might be ambitious and may not be something to do, but would you consider asking help from someone very talented and experienced with DeepFakes to fix Leia in the flashback scene. She looks too much like her character model in Battlefront II in there.

That’s Carrie Fisher’s actual face from Jedi, not CGI. I don’t know how an amateur could make it look better using deepfake technology.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

pleasehello said:

Would love it if this were true. But these rumor mill websites with their unnamed sources aren’t interested in reporting the truth.

Here’s a little-known fact: I love your avatar!

I think he’s an under- appreciated character. I mean someone’s got to deliver the mail on Hoth.

Would love it if this were true. But these rumor mill websites with their unnamed sources aren’t interested in reporting the truth.

Where are you going to source the trailer shots you intend on using? Do they exist in high bit-rate form somewhere?

EddieDean said:

Keep the lesbian kiss, even though it is hamfisted and lazy and in no way makes up for the lack of proper representation, but because even so it’s still better than nothing.

Edit: Preempting any negative responses; representation isn’t an agenda.

Keep the gay kiss, remove the Rey and Kylo kiss.

Representation isn’t an agenda, but Disney didn’t insert a gay kiss because they care about representation.

idir_hh said:

Doesn’t look like we’ll be getting any deleted scenes 😢

Broom Kid said:

How are the film scores apples & oranges?

Goldsmith’s score for the Motion Picture is great (and Goldsmith himself is a legend for very good reason) but a whole lot of Star Trek music is just… unremarkable. In some instances it’s actually bad. Especially once you start factoring in the TV shows. I don’t know that I can point to a single bad Star Wars score, though, and many of both series’ scores are trying to do the same thing, using the same musical language in a lot of instances.

I’m not saying there isn’t some timeless Star Trek music. But I can’t see an argument being made for Star Trek having a better musical component.

Sorry. I meant the franchises themselves are apples and oranges. Star Wars has a better musical component, yes.

Broom Kid said:

Not that I’ve ever really gone in for comparing the two (oh, remember the days when that was the most contentious question in all of “Fandom?” how little did we know…) but I always felt that the comparison was ONLY fair when you took the very best of each series and measured those two, AT their best, against each other.

I will say this, the only area in which I think there’s no real argument whatsoever is that Star Wars has better music. That’s the only aspect where I don’t think there’s any contest at all.

Apples and oranges for me.

Star Wars film scores are much more consistent. But Jerry Goldsmith’s score for Star Trek: The Motion Picture is, in my mind anyway, as good as anything John Williams has written.

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

Nope.

Could you pleas explain why you like it? I’m genuinely interested.

It sounds like it came straight from a Old Hollywood picture, like a 1940s noir film. Which is a spirit that is in keeping with the series.

It might have sounded cool if Philip Marlowe had said it. Not so much when Rose Tico says it.

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

This is actually an issue I do take with TLJ. The moralizing, while not central to the story is way too on the nose. First of all, the issues in question are comically black and white. We see the animal abuse and child abuse first-hand. We see the mustache twirling, vulgar rich war profiteering people of Canto Bight. It’s obvious to a person even with a low propensity for critical analysis that these things are wrong. But then, the movie goes a step further and tells the audience flat-out that these things are bad, as if we didn’t already know. It’s lacking in subtlety and I think a little insulting to the viewer.

I’m not sure this is true. This is the offending speech by Rose where she explains why Canto Bight is bad:

Look closer. My sister and I grew up in a poor mining system. The First Order stripped our ore to finance its military… then shelled us to test their weapons. They took everything we had. And who do you think these people are? There is only one business in the galaxy that’ll get you this rich. War. Selling weapons to the First Order. I wish… I could put my fist through this whole lousy beautiful town.

While that doesn’t leave much to the imagination, I suppose she doesn’t outright say it in her balcony speech. But, what’s worse than that is what she says before we even get to Canto Bight. “It’s a horrible place filled with the worst people.”

Before we even get there, the movie is telling us what to expect. And then (surprise!) we get it.

This is actually an issue I do take with TLJ. The moralizing, while not central to the story is way too on the nose. First of all, the issues in question are comically black and white. We see the animal abuse and child abuse first-hand. We see the mustache twirling, vulgar rich war profiteering people of Canto Bight. It’s obvious to a person even with a low propensity for critical analysis that these things are wrong. But then, the movie goes a step further and tells the audience flat-out that these things are bad, as if we didn’t already know. It’s lacking in subtlety and I think a little insulting to the viewer.

I think a better solution would have been to paint a more subtle picture of the injustice and amorality of Canto Bight and let the viewer come to their own conclusion. I’m not big on movies telling its audience what to think, even if is the right thing.

DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Regardless of your opinions on it, I definitely think now that the trilogy is over I feel like The Last Jedi will be seen as the most important movie in the trilogy. Maybe not now or in a year from now, but as time goes on I think people will appreciate that this movie had a lot more to say than either TFA or TROS. To me it felt like JJ wanted to honor Star Wars in a very superficial way with his films, whereas Rian showed his love for Star Wars by challenging AND reaffirming its central themes. I’m not going to argue about its execution, but this thread and the interesting conversations we have here prove to me that there is a lot more depth with this film in comparison to 7 or 9 worth discussing.

I have no doubt in my mind this is true. I believe I said as much when the film came out, years down the line this will be universally regarded as one of the very best SW films.

I don’t know about universal. For people who see movies as a vehicle for artistic expression and more thoughtful thematic material, sure. People for whom movies are nothing more than thrill-rides, the quality of which is judged by the number of 'slposions in it (there are a lot of people like this), probably not.

Whether or not it will be regarded as one of the very best SW films, it should be. At the very least as one of the most daring and interesting.

FreezingTNT2 said:

Anchorhead said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

There were many things the writers could’ve done with her, like having her hunt down Finn and Rose on Canto Bight as they are looking for the code-breaker.

I think that would have been a fantastic part of the story. Give her some depth as an angry captain going AWOL to hunt down a couple who she feels outsmarted her. Great idea. Would have also made the casino story much more interesting and meaningful.

+1

Far better than shoehorning ham-fisted obvious messages about “animal cruelty being wrong”. Also have Phasma kill DJ instead of having DJ betray Finn and Rose so it wouldn’t come across as a knock-off of Lando betraying the heroes in The Empire Strikes Back.

DJ isn’t a knock-off Lando. He’s one of two character foils for Finn. He’s the devil on Finn’s shoulder contrasting with Rose who is the angel. He takes no sides, is motivated entirely by his own selfish interests and makes a deal that only benefits himself. Lando makes a deal partially in self-preservation, but also that he thinks will be best for the people of Bespin and for his friends. And when Lando’s deal goes south, he helps instead of doing a cut-and-run.

Lando is a knock-off Han Solo.

RogueLeader said:

I think the guys who do the Rule of Two podcast made a similar comment. There are a lot of moments in his script that feel pulled from other fantasy movies. Rey coming face to face with the Jedi in the netherworld of the Force definitely feels like Harry seeing Dumbledore in the King’s Cross purgatory scene from Deathly Hallows.

That came to mind almost immediately.

StarkillerAG said:

Of course, now that the majority of the Star Wars fanbase has grown to appreciate the prequels, that decision has backfired horribly, but Disney had no way of seeing it back then.

The prequels are still just as big of a joke today as they were 15 years ago and the majority of Star Wars fans know it. Just because people have more of a sardonic appreciation for them now doesn’t make them any less bad. Disney made the right decision rejecting Lucas’ story ideas. It’s their decisions after that which are questionable.

yotsuya said:

And since I read the screenplay I thought I would give my impressions.

First, I was struck at some of the obvious reuse of dialog from the OT. I was also struck at how much this and the final TROS parallel each other. I can see now why they still have credit for the story.

Overall I think it is a great script. Worthy of being a early draft of a Star Wars movie. But in the end I don’t think it is up to being a shooting script.

The parallels are absolutely there, but I don’t know if I can confidently say that TROS is a huge improvement. It definitely is in some areas while in others it’s a step backward from this early draft.

Finn obviously benefits the most from Trevorrow’s script, leading the revolution Victor Hugo style. You can see the parallel in TROS with him meeting Jana or whatever her name is, and the other defected storm troopers, but it’s so lukewarm and halfway. You never really feel as thought he inspires any kind of change.

Kylo really suffers the most in this early draft. His struggle is gone as he turns into a one-dimensional character of pure evil until the very end when the script requires an instantaneous change of heart. His redemption in TROS was abrupt as well, but at least it was triggered by an act of kindness and love. Him being the one that killed Rey’s parents is an interesting idea, but the way it’s handled in this draft doesn’t really add anything to the story. At the point in which it’s revealed, Rey already seems resolved against Kylo so I don’t see that it really serves any dramatic purpose.

Rey and Poe being an item is easily the worst thing in this draft. Yuck. Although when she insisted on going on her mission alone, I did like her use of the Jedi mind trick on Poe to get him to leave her and rejoin the resistance. It was an interesting use of the common trope that we haven’t really seen before. The mind trick not used to deceive an enemy, but used rather on a friend to protect him from himself. The idea has such dramatic potential (not fully realized in this script) that I’m surprised it’s never been used in a film before.

I liked Luke’s increased role in this script mostly as a sort of guiding force for both Rey and Kylo except for his final confrontation with Kylo. You want to talk about Luke being out of character. His momentary lapse in TLJ when he considers killing Kylo is nothing compared to the ending of this draft in which he completely condemns Kylo, rejecting him out of hand, “you are no Skywalker” or whatever it is he says. I hated that coming from Luke. It’s made all the more useless when Kylo has a change of heart 2 minutes later anyway.

Anyway, it was an interesting read. Didn’t hate it, didn’t love it. I don’t think it’s better that TROS.

yotsuya said:

I want to read every draft of every one of the films. Not possible with what is currently out there.

I think the key to why some of us think TROS is a good final film is how epic the battle is. The series is titled Star Wars. The hallmark of the series has been the space battles. In TROS we get one actually in the atmosphere of Exogol. I really haven’t head anything about this that has any descent space battle. I think the Stromtrooper rebellion is a cool idea, but one that needs more time to play out. That would have been a cool thing to have Finn and Rose address in TLJ instead of Fathiers and gamblers. But to bring it out just in the final film seems a little rushed to me. For me, the epic nature of Palaptine, a fleet of planet killers, and so many other things about TROS just were so much better than what I see here. I just don’t see the epic nature and how that adds to the saga lore.

I like TROS quite a bit, but the final battle is easily the weakest part. First of all, the rallying of all their allies is not properly established. Just because the battle is large and “epic” doesn’t make it interesting. The only interesting space battles in Star Wars are the ones with personal stakes, which is why the Death Star battle in Star Wars works, while the Death Star battle in ROTJ doesn’t. No amount of good ships fighting any amount of bad ships is as engaging as Luke letting go and trusting in the force as he takes that last shot. Star Wars works best when the big stakes are inseparably intertwined with the smaller stakes.

This is where the more carefully established uprising in DOTF seems to carry more weight than the battle in TROS. Finn has a personal stake in the final battle.

StarkillerAG said:

-I love Luke’s role in this movie. He appears throughout, giving guidance to Rey, Kylo, and Leia. It makes me wish we got more of him in TROS.

Yes, me too. It’s unfathomable how underutilized Luke was in TROS. Especially in the wake of Carrie’s death, Luke should have been much more of a guiding force for both Rey and Kylo. Kind of a no-brainer and definitely one of TROS’s biggest missed opportunities.