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Post
#201158
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/201158/action/topic#201158
Time
Okay, so I've assigned the first part of the article-editing to Tweaker. Many thanks.

Dr. Gonzo, you're on board for part 2.


Richard Williams, The Curious Case of Inspector Clouseau (2002):

Blake said, "Peter Sellers and I, we both need a hit, we're both in the soup, our career needs a lift, we're gonna break our ass on this picture." And, uh, I said, uh, look, I'd like to do a couple of things, I'd like to take the Panther and stretch him out, I'd like to put him on black because the pink will look wonderufl in black. We can have him dance like Fred Astaire or whatever you want, and I said can I stretch him out, make him a little more elegant. And he said, "Elegant! That's right! They never understood my character!" (Williams reacts in shock) And I said "Oi oi?" It's him, as a panther!




Gah, I have to sleep. If I'm gonna ever get anything done on this project I really have to start asking for more help.

Anyone wanna have a hack at OCRing some articles? I suggest blowing them all up first and adjusting the contrast, via some sort of batch convert thing in Photoshop.

http://orangecow.org/thief/articlesforOCR

By the by, for you casual readers of this thread, the articles in that directory are of interest, it's the whole John Loter collection to date.

This article is definitely worth reading, it's the most amusing interview with Richard that I've read.

http://orangecow.org/thief/articlesforOCR/pg57.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/articlesforOCR/pg58.jpg
Post
#201128
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/201128/action/topic#201128
Time
Email me?





So, Amid Amini, who does the website Cartoonbrew.com with Jerry Beck (!), thought it might be a good idea to feature an interview about The Recobbled Cut at that site. Which is flattering and cool. It might help people find out about the project who wouldn't otherwise hear about it ... hopefully including more artists who worked on it. We'll see.

He sent me a few questions to answer via email. I hate interviews which sound "typed" so I just kind of replied the way I'd reply if I were talking out loud. No real edits to my brain vomit. I babbled on for a while, and it's quite long, and if you're reading this thread this is nothing you don't already know, but here's what I sent. Which will probably be shortened for the site. =D


Cartoon Brew talks to Garrett Gilchrist

(or, Garrett Gilchrist talks and talks at Cartoon Brew, as usual)

> What is it specifically about THE THIEF AND THE
> COBBLER that has inspired you to invest so much of
> your time and money to restore this film?

Lot of time, lot of money, yeah. Heh. When I was seven years old, I read an article in Comics Scene magazine - I still have the magazine - which shows absolutely no artwork from The Thief - Richard wouldn't let them - but interviews him about it ... and he says he's trying to revolutionize animation; he's trying to create the greatest animated motion picture ever made. That he's been working for 23 years on this one film, The Thief and the Cobbler. Now at the time I was sleeping on Roger Rabbit bedsheets, I had Roger Rabbit bendies, a Jessica PVC, so if the man who animated Roger Rabbit says that, you better believe I was interested.

Richard just had a way of talking about this film - he made it seem uniquely magical. He exaggerated like P.T. Barnum, but you can tell he really believed in this project, that he wanted to make the best animated movie he possibly could, no matter how long it took. I've heard the same thing from a lot of other people, how when they were kids they read about this legendary unfinished movie that this guy was spending 10, 20, 25 years on .... how it was going to be a masterpiece. Even the people who worked on the movie, they worked on it because they were in love with the idea of it.

I was about 14 when I actually saw a trailer for Arabian Knight in the theater, and I thought it looked awful. I thought, "someone's ripped off Aladdin." But it stuck in my mind that this was from the animator of Roger Rabbit ... long-lost memories came unstuck ... hang on, somehow this is the same masterpiece he was talking about when I was a kid. Something's gone horribly wrong here. It wasn't until I was in high school that I read the actual story of how the movie was destroyed, never finished as intended.

Richard Williams spent 26 years working on this film, but it wasn't until after Roger Rabbit that he was actually able to get funding to make it properly, because now he'd won three Oscars and animated the first modern animated blockbuster, so he had clout again. Richard always wanted The Thief to become a blockbuster and kick-start a new modern golden age of animation, but Roger Rabbit wound up doing that instead ... which is nice. He started the film afresh with a team of mostly young animators that he could teach as he worked, but now, after 22 years he had to meet some sort of deadline. Warners needed him to deliver the film on time and on budget ... and he'd gotten so used to working on it slowly over time that he couldn't do it. He got close - he only had 15 minutes left to go - but when Warners saw the film, they didn't like what they saw. It was too arty, too old-fashioned.

Disney was making leaps and bounds in the 90s - this was the era of Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin ... and Dick's film, so long in production, seemed old-fashioned by comparison. I've heard that Dick hated The Little Mermaid, because it was driven by dialogue rather than visuals. Dick wanted to make a film like Fantasia, like the classic Disney cartoons, but now there was a new style at Disney. Dick never cared about dialogue, he cared about the visuals, creating a whole world onscreen. The funny thing is that Dick influenced that - over the years so many people had trained under Dick and they were mostly working at Disney now. Eric Goldberg, Andreas Deja, Dick Purdum, a few thousand others.

And Disney was making this film called Aladdin - which is, I mean, Aladdin is an excellent film, but it's basically a musical-comedy version of The Thief and the Cobbler. It's widely known as a ripoff - the characters are identical, much of the plot is identical, even individual shots, lines, line readings, are identical. And frankly it's sort of juvenile compared to The Thief. But now there was a big problem with The Thief ... because Aladdin was coming out, and he would have to compete with that! They were racing to finish before this film that they'd inspired. And Disney had been very inspired by Dick, so you can just imagine Dick trying to play catch-up to all the young guys he'd inspired, who'd taken his ideas and ran with them. Disney was in a golden age, but Dick was screwed ... which is another reason not to spend 26 years on a film, if you needed another reason.

Warner Bros. wanted The Thief to be like Aladdin, like Mermaid. And it's not - it's more like Yellow Submarine, like Fantasia. It could never be a broadway musical. It's purely about the fascinating visual potential of animation. Most of the characters are silent - there are incredible war sequences - it creates a whole world - It's closer to 2001 than Aladdin. Or to Pinocchio for that matter. Anyway, Warners got scared and backed out, Richard was fired from his life's work, the film was finished by a hack named Calvert, and it's terrible. The version of The Thief and the Cobbler you can get on video is terrible.

It's even more terrible because Disney got scared of it, and recut it themselves to turn it into an Aladdin ripoff. They had Tack talk about Genies and talk about Aladdin ... they really ruined it, Disney really ruined it. They were scared I guess that anyone would watch this movie and LIKE it, and realize that Aladdin wasn't an original film. The version you can get on video, it's terrible, it's almost impossible to like, so that makes it seem like an Aladdin ripoff rather than the other way around. To quote Judge Doom in Roger Rabbit: "I bought the red car so I could dismantle it."

It's a very sad story. Richard was obsessed with this movie, probably to an unhealthy level, and when it was taken away from him it was obviously such a terrible blow. Now he's known as the master animator, the Animator's Animator - he's written The Animator's Survival Kit which is now THE textbook for any animator, it's the best book ever written on animation. His animation masterclasses were huge events, always sold out. People who took them became teachers themselves. A lot of the great animators today, they learned from Richard, or they owe a lot to Richard. But people have never seen his masterpiece. You can't rent or buy or watch Richard Williams' The Thief and the Cobbler. It doesn't exist as it was meant to be seen. I think that's a pretty damn good reason to restore this movie!


> It was rumored some years ago that Roy Disney had
> been trying to convince Disney to do an official
> restoration of the project. Do you see this as a
> replacement to any eventual official restoration
> that Disney might do, a companion piece, or something
> completely different?


God, I really hope Disney does restore this film someday. The latest I hear is that Don Hahn is working on it now with Richard. Or was, a few months back. So it's in good hands. I don't think they're scared of the film anymore, as certain people were for awhile after Aladdin. Certain people at Disney who are now long gone. Roy Disney tried to get a restoration done for almost a decade, but it's a film that's ... it's impossible to get those two sides to come together.

Richard doesn't trust Disney with this fim (or trust anyone with this film after what happened!), and Disney can't quite play ball with Richard. The story I heard was that they just weren't spending the money to do it right - that they'd let Richard be involved but wouldn't pay him. Or wouldn't pay him to have a staff, he'd have to do it alone. Richard always wanted this film to be a blockbuster, like Roger Rabbit wound up being. It's not a tiny project to him, and they were lowballing him because they didn't think there was a market. This is a huge film among animation geeks, but the general public doesn't know about it. So raising the money ... hmm.

Anyway, I wish them a lot of luck. I'm not trying to step on Disney's toes. I'm hoping that what I'm doing will help their cause. For one thing, my goal is to prove there IS a market out there. I'm spending a lot of my own money to prove there is a market out there. I said I was doing a restoration of The Thief and the Cobbler and people went nuts ... it's such a legendary film among people who really know animation. They would sell a lot of copies. If they can ever do a restoration, what I'm doing is a companion to that I guess. Because they could do it with much better picture quality than I ever could, and people who have seen my version would want to buy Disney's version in a second. But what I can do is ... I don't have to worry about rights issues, so I can collect anything and everything related to this film. We've collected an amazing amount of material. And I hope it generates even more interest in this classic film, because people can show this stuff to their friends. I feel like I'm doing Disney's job for them, doing their marketing. Heh. No, I don't need to, there's quite a cult following out there.

> It looks like you're also compiling some amazing
> dvds of supplementary materials like documentaries,
> interviews, and other Williams animation projects.

Yeah. Ten DVDs so far, which is pretty remarkable. Everything about this project has been larger than life, which is appropriate since Richard is a larger than life figure and this is a larger than life film. We've collected lots of documentaries, including a whole bunch recently from 1969 and 1970! That early, which is really fascinating. From 1980, from 1989 ... We've collected rare short films, commercials, promo pieces, lots of things you just can't get on video, in good quality. I'm geeking out, it's great stuff.

There's also the matter of all the artwork, images, interviews, articles ... I scanned 1000 pieces of original Thief artwork this week. We've scanned about 500 pages worth of interviews and articles. I mean, dear god, when will it end? It would be silly if Disney told us to stop at this point. They'd be silly not to just take it all from us and use it on their own release. We've done more work for them than they would ever do in a million years. I say we because it's been very much a group effort, a lot of people who worked on the film have been ridiculously helpful. I don't want to name names.

> How much involvement have original crewmembers had
> on this project, and who are some of the artists that
> are helping out?

All right then. The guy who really kickstarted this proect was a fellow named Simon Downes, who was assistant to Roy Naisbitt (layout) on the film. I kind of mused out loud on a message board that I wanted to restore The Thief and the Cobbler ... something I originally did for fun six years ago, on VHS. Very few people saw that one. Simon contacted me saying, hey, I worked on this film, here's some rare stuff. He sent me the widescreen DVD version of the Thief which is pretty rare, from Japan, a beautiful copy of the 1980 documentary, some really rare camera tests he'd saved from the film ... it was great! And I said, all right, and just ran with it. And I've been hemhorraging money on this project ever since. Heh.

Roy Naisbitt was great, I called him up, very nice man, and a genius at that, he was Dick's assistant and layout man for nearly 3 decades. He sent me some really rare stuff, documentaries from the 60s, commercials. I interviewed him. Alex Williams, Richard's son and a major animator on the film (did Tack and the opening), very nice indeed. Visited him at his home, interviewed him, and that meant a lot, to get a thumbs-up and approval from him. Andreas Wessel-Therhorn, animated the lackeys, he's been very nice, lent me his vast collection of Thief artwork. Tony White, who was and is a hero of mine because his book on animation was the first one I ever read, at age 7, a mindbogglingly gorgeous book called The Animator's Work Book, buy it if you haven't. He's a teacher now and he showed the film to two classes, had a huge screening. I think that's real education.

Holger Leihe, worked on The Thief mostly, Steve Evangelatos, Greg Duffell, Jerry Verschoor, Beth Hannan who did ink & paint, oh god I'm forgetting people now. There are too many. Few very nice people who worked on the Calvert version who may not want their names named ... Heh. I called Fred Calvert, he didn't want to talk, but he's in a bad spot, his wife just died apparently. I doubt I'll ever get to talk to him. Sad.

But it's been a lot of fun. I mean, I've been such a fan of this beautiful film for years and now I get to see it from the inside in a lot of ways, touch a piece of it. It's beautiful, it's such an honor. I hope more people get in touch - if anyone is reading this who worked on the Thief, my email is tygerbug (at) yahoo.com, and what we're doing is, we're putting together a scrapbook. I'm collecting everything, everyone's memories, good, bad and otherwise. If anyone has any saved artwork, saved video, I collect it and I send it to EVERYONE, so that everyone involved in the film can share in it. And that's an honor in and of itself. Costly, but an honor.

I'm planning on writing a book about The Thief, doing a documentary. It's a hell of a story, a major moment in animation history, and it needs to be told, in the words of the people who were there, in all its glory and pain. It's an insane story in some ways, a story of obsession, and the desire for perfection in art. I'm a filmmaker primarily. I've directed seven features and thirty shorts, which you can see at orangecow.org. I once spent three years on one feature so I know a few things about obsession in art.

> There's already a rough 'director's cut' by Richard
> Williams that has been floating around the animation
> biz for many years. How will the version you're
> working on differ from the existing Williams' cut
> that many in the industry have seen?

Yeah, THAT bootleg. Well, that's the whole inspiration for this project, because it's terrible, isn't it? I mean, it's beautiful to watch because it's a great film but the quality is terrible. You can't see anything. And half the film isn't finished. This was Richard Williams' masterpiece, a film of such richness and subtlety that you can only hope to appreciate it on a big screen. And the only version of the thing anyone can get looks like crap with half the scenes missing.

So my goal is to take everyone who has that crappy bootleg of The Thief and the Cobbler, and quietly replace their terrible copies with a gorgeous DVD quality copy. This is why I've been giving it out for free so much, even though I'm so broke I'm getting kicked out of my apartment, because I want this version of The Thief to spread, spread enough that Disney says, hey, we'd better get on to restoring this film. Dick spent 26 years on this film, the least I can do is spend a few months on it.

> I noticed that you're doing some really ambitious
> things like compositing frames from two different
> sources to create a widescreen effect. Can you tell
> us what other types of things you're doing that'll make
> this the definitive version of THIEF AND THE
> COBBLER?

Yeah. Well, we spent a few months searching for the best version of the workprint we could find. First I edited the whole film with a poor quality workprint, and I released that as the "Recobbled Rough Cut," which a lot of people have. But better quality copies of the workprint kept turning up - I wound up reediting the whole damn movie twice! Finally a REALLY good quality copy turned up on Emule of all places. I have no idea who posted it there originally, but if you're reading this, please contact me. I'm sure it was someone who worked on the film, it had to be. A PAL copy.

So I'm starting all over again. The crappy Miramax version is available on DVD in widescreen, and I'm using that for 80% of the movie, just not using the picture. So you can see 80% of the movie in glorious widescreen. The audio is from the workprint mostly, and has been noise reduced and restored and sounds great. Anything they cut out, we take from the workprint, and that has been restored by Chris Boniface and looks great. The workprint is matched to appear in the same place as the DVD material, so it transitions seamlessly. It's all color corrected. More music has been added that wasn't there before to make it feel more like a finished film than a workprint, sound is taken from other sources at times, CD quality music sometimes, opening and closing titles and special effects.

I've added back a few scenes Dick originally cut out, and I'm actually using a lot of the stuff Fred Calvert animated, even if it's kind of cruddy, because it tells the story better than storyboards. Some of the film is still unfinished, and you'll see storyboards, but you'll see a lot less of them than you used to - you'll see a lot of finished animation instead, some of which is actually quite good. We've also found a cut of the film which I didn't know existed, Stanch found it, it's a work in progress of Fred Calvert's version and contains some extra Dick Williams animation that I'd never seen before anywhere. So that's going in - there's a scene with One Eye which used to be just pencil test, but Dick finished it, and you'll see it. Yumyum in the bath, Zigzag charging at Tack ...

Now there are some really important scenes that are in Fred Calvert's "Princess and the Cobbler" version of the movie but not in the Miramax cut (which is much worse) ... the old witch, the entire march of the one eyes, a lot of the best stuff in the film. I wish I had Princess and the Cobbler in widescreen but I don't. I have it on DVD in pan & scan, because it was never released in widescreen. So, what I'm doing is pasting the really clear pan & scan image over the less clear widescreen image from the workprint. It works great, because the pan & scan image contains the important part, like the witch herself, and that'll be REALLY clear, and the rest can be less clear but who cares? It's good stuff.

Also, I'm using a lot of trickery to make it work better - I've created my own backgrounds for some pan & scan shots so the whole picture can be clearer - which I've had to matchmove or match changing lighting on as the shot changes. I've composited parts of shots over clearer backgrounds. One shot, the Thief is really tiny in it, so I just composited The Thief over a really clear background from the DVD, and reanimated the FX elements around him myself - flying cannonballs, a grabber hand that comes down. It's remarkable because it's suddenly DVD quality.

I did the same with a shot of the One Eye War Machine - I created a background and animated it with rain. I guess I've gone a little crazy with this. I guess that's the understatement of the year. This film tends to inspire obsession in people. Dick would know that better than anybody. That's my main goal, is to create something Dick would like too. I don't know if I'm capable of that, but I hope so. My cut is not the same as his cut, and his son Alex advised me to tread lightly - he hasn't spoken publicly about this movie in 15 years, it really ruined his life when he lost control of it, his whole obsession, his life's work. Alex was worried that Dick would think that I was just stealing his movie and reworking it, like everyone else. But gonna try and approach him with it. That'd be nice ....

> Since this whole thing is obviously a non-profit
> fan-driven project, how will the average reader of
> Cartoon Brew be able to get their hands on this
> material?

The final Recobbled Cut will be available for free via torrent at myspleen.net. There's already an old torrent there somewhere which has a terrible version of the workprint and some good specials on it, but the real Recobbled Cut will almost certainly end up there. I don't know about the 10+ special features discs, but we'll see. They'll certainly be spreading around, I'll make sure of that.

> And when do you think your final restoration will be finished?

26 years ... No, it ought to be done sometime in May. Probably early May. I'm still waiting for the new restored workprint and Arabian Knight to come in, that Chris Boniface has done his work on. That'll come in and I'll start working on the final cut next week. April 17th, I'll start work on the final cut. The 20th is my birthday, I'll be 25. The 30th I get thrown out of this place for failure to pay rent. And sometime in May ... Recobbled Cut.

But I'll be keeping this research project open, because I'm enjoying talking to people involved with this film, and I'm going to keep gathering up their memories, and gathering up special feaures related to this film. Maybe it'll help Disney when they do theirs. They can feel free to contact me. Heh. It would make a really good book, and a good documentary, and I hope I somehow maintain the stamina to do both. It's been a fun ride so far, and it's only getting better.
Post
#201088
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/201088/action/topic#201088
Time
So, Holger Leihe, who among other things worked over Ken Harris' old work animating The Thief on the film, sends news that as of 7 months ago, Don Hahn mentioned he was working on a restoration of The Thief, with Dick Williams.

I've asked him to casually look into it, and see what Don's up to now. =) Apart from being second in command at Disney and all that. Obviously Don is verrry busy, but hopefully can get a few words out of him. I do have Don Hahn's email (I took a guess what it was and was right) but I won't email him ... why bug a man who has the restructuring of Disney to think about right now!

Holger will also be sending in some copies of the Clapperboard and "The Creative Man" documentaries from 1969, dealing with the Nasrudin film, which he got from Roy Naisbitt.


I don't know if I mentioned it, but I also heard from Greg Duffell.


There's been so much news, every day I'm dealing with dozens of emails and tons and tons of new information. I'm still writing emails from four days ago ... or longer ...

But I'll keep you all updated on the best of it. =)


NOW ...


I need some help, and I'm really serious about this one. I need some SERIOUS help.

I need an editor ... who can wade through and organize a LOT of written material. It's practically a writing job in and of itself.

I was working with Sean Murphy, who had signed up to be an editor, helping edit together the materials needed for me to write this book/script.

Sean, to his credit, put a lot of work organizing articles into a private Wiki. But it wasn't the kind of organizing I actually needed!

Today he called, and we had a nice conversation, but he said he just couldn't wrap his mind around the kind of editing I needed here. He understood it now, but he couldn't do it.


So, this is what I need.



I have collected a large amount of articles. A few hundred pages worth, yeah.

I need someone who can go through this material, article by article, and separate out the portions of each article which pertain to a specific period of time.

So, if the bit of the article was about "Richard Williams was born in ..." You'd put that at the beginning of Chapter 2.

If it's about Nasrudin, it goes into the Nasrudin chapter at the appropriate point. About A Christmas Carol, at that point.

The idea is to get the appropriate portions of each article arranged so that all the information about, say, Richard's early years is all together. Everything about The Little Island is together. Raggedy Ann, together. The 70s Thief, together. The 80s Thief, together. The 90s Thief, together.

When this is all done, I'll have a long master document that I can then look at while I'm writing, and instantly have all the information I could ever need right in front of my eyes. Every sentence I write will be well-informed and I'll be able to use the best information from every source.

I can break this job up so that it's being done by one person for a while, then another person, then another person, but it can only be done by one person at a time really.

It is a pretty tough job. Sean agreed that it would be a mistake to try and do it myself, as I would get so into organizing the material that I'd be low on energy when actually writing, I'd feel like it had all already been said. The information needs to hit me freshly for the text of the book to have any snap.


Anyway. It's a hugely important job. And I can break it up to make it easier, people can do it in shifts.

Any takers?
Post
#200691
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/200691/action/topic#200691
Time
Hi Tascar!

--

Hi DrGonzo! I wouldn't mind transcripts of Animating Art and parts of Behind the Ears (from the official Roger Rabbit DVD) actually .... what I'm really waiting on is converted copies of the 1969/70 Clapperboard and One Pair of Eyes docs (the latter already being transcribed). Apparently there's another called The Creative Mind too, which both Roy and Holger Leihe have mentioned. I'm not sure if this is the same as One Pair of Eyes: Dreamwalkers, as it sounds similar.

Obviously there's plenty else I could actually use help with in terms of organizing the book and doc, but I'm always hesitant to ask for these things, and I can barely think of what they'd be. I've got all those scans now from the Therhorn collection, 1000 scans of Thief material which is all split up over two or three or more scans apiece, and ought to be Photoshop-stitched together .... which I'm way too hassled to do now, but I'll have a look at it and do some of it, since I'd like to use and color this artwork for use on covers and things ...

---

Ben -- Rock on Ben! You're a goddamn star. If you can get these broadcast copies of these things onto DVD, PAL or NTSC, that would bring these extras discs up to retail DVD quality, which is nice ... =) Hugely excited. If you're currently having difficulties converting from PAL BetaSP, I'm sure someone else watching this thread could help you ... just give a shoutout.

As for the early 80s doc from Thames, the copy that Simon dug up is broadcast quality as is .... so no problems there.

>> On reading through your forum...you might be interested in the opening and closing titles for "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum", which RW also completed.

Funny the timing - as you were posting about this, I was actually watching this on DVD! The closing titles are beautiful and more animated than, say, What's New Pussycat? and Casino Royale ... probably worth including actually! I'll dupe myself a copy.

>> I also have the full "Roger Rabbit And The Secrets Of Toontown" special in its original broadcast version and in a special edit I did that incorporates material from a Disney documentary that had a section on Roger with RW explaining the tricks in the Benny The Cab scene.

Oh please - send this. Send this! I don't have this. Send this!

And any Roger stuff that's rare, I could probably get away with sneaking into this set. Maybe. Slightly off topic stuff has snuck on this set before ... like Oscar Grillo's Seaside Woman.

>> Lastly, I have an NTSC DVD dub of the pan-and-scan Raggedy Ann And Andy, which I am pretty sure came from the Columbia LaserDisc, instead of a VHS, if that also helps, but it seems you've pretty much covered that one (?).

Well, Chris has done a restoration of my crap DVDshrunk VHS dub of it. But if it's actually from laserdisc ... if you can verify that .... oh, just send it! I'd love to see it. My transfer left a few things to be desired which I'm sure Chris' restoration fixed in the most part, but you can never be too sure to check out a possibly better transfer. =)

>> BTW...as a picky editor, I thought the Miramax cut on LD has amazing print quality, as far as I remember. In fact, I remember being quite knocked out by the image quality on this release, even if it was in CLV.

I've heard that. But for clarity you can't beat the Arabian Knight DVD put out in Japan - even if the picture is blown out in places and has some film dirt.

>> What also pushed me to signing to the forums was that I may well have the 1989 Academy Awards. For most of the 1980s I had to count on friends to tape it from a cable channel for me, but as a HUGE Roger fan, I'm pretty sure this would have been one I specifically had taped or was even able to tape myself. Since I have a room full of VHS tapes - none of which are properly labelled, natch! - I'll have to search through and look at anything with "Oscars" written on it.

Dear god! Look, man, look. Man ... you could contribute so much to this project. =D

>> And...no hopes up at all here...but I MIGHT have "The Little Island" on VHS somewhere.

Don't taunt me! =D I actually spoke to the composer of this film and he said his copy came from Dick so to just ask Dick. Oh well. The early films are THE item I'm most interested in getting right now.


>>I had tons of animation stuff at one point (loads of original Walt Disney TV shows, the ENTIRE Muppet Show run including specials, etc, I know, I know...)

Heh. A man after my own heart there. My father worked for Henson, doing the old Muppets comic strip and licensing art, and I've got a pretty good Henson collection. The full Muppet Show, Jim Henson Hour (my favorite), etc.




This one goes out to Patrick ... from Holger Leihe.

The music in the opening sequence was original music
composed for the film. For years they used R.V.
Williams' " Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis".
That is actually still the music I associate with that
part of the film. It couldn't be used for copyright
reasons and so they got somebody to compose s.th.
similar. Not as good in my opinion.
Say hello to Simon. I hope he is doing well.


---

So ... Patrick, send me the Tallis piece. I would be interested in seeing how it works in the film.
Post
#200350
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/200350/action/topic#200350
Time
Ha ... that's pretty similar Ogg. It's from the same time period too - Price would have started his work on Nasrudin (the Thief) shortly after that. I have a sheet here from when they were (re)designing Zigzag, and Dick has pasted photos of Vincent Price with a moustache/beard all over one section for reference.


Nice work on Raggedy Ann & Andy there Chris ... too bad you're working from my cruddy compressed DVD - If I'd sent you the real VHS of it, it would look even better!

I take it the image is 24p, slightly shrunk and stretched horizontally? Looking forward.

(Yes, for those playing at home that first screen grab is from Raggedy Ann & Andy.)


Any workprint screen grabs? That's what I am interested in seeing.


And yes, the left side of the screen does show the edges of cels. I'm not going to fix that myself, as I'm not doing ANY color or other adjustments to the Arabian Knight clips, I want to maintain the picture quality and not have any more render time than I ought.




Does anyone anywhere actually tape and collect The Academy Awards? I would love to get a copy of the 1989 ceremony somehow, with Richard's Roger wins.
Post
#199906
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199906/action/topic#199906
Time
The ironic thing is that now I have HUGE scans of beautifully designed logos for Once... and The Thief Who Never Gave Up ... and I'll soon have one for Princess and the Cobbler I'm sure ... I could even scan the Arabian Knight logo in all its "glory" ....

But the logo for The Thief and the Cobbler I only have as a screen grab. A wobbly, awful screen grab.

In my searching to date it's never, ever turned up in print, in any form.


....





Considering the film was always most known as that, this is a rather strange situation isn't it?


http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oncepostersm.jpg

Larger:
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oncepostermedium.jpg

Insanely large:
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/onceposterbig.jpg

The semi-famous gatefold poster for Once ... seen at Cannes. This might look badly drawn and off model, and to a certain degree it is, but actually this was a testing ground for new character designs for the film ... Yumyum, Tack and Phido appear here in new designs which influenced how they appeared in the final film. Dick actually xeroxed these drawings and looked at them while redesigning the characters.

There is a mouse, brown here, white in the final film. The witch and the Thief are very much on model.

Roofless and the Brigands are taken from a drawing done for the Nasrudin film in the 1960s! Over twenty years later, the same drawing was used here. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Meemee and Bubba are nowhere in sight, despite their presence in the "Once ..." logo. They had just been excised from the film as Dick secured financing to finally go ahead with full production.






OH, AND ...


I asked Andreas what the name of the Ralph Vaughan Williams piece is that opens the film.

He said, "Fantasia on ... something." A friend of his bought it on CD, but he didn't.



This is as he was driving me and the Box home ... and out of the CD player I hear "Am I Feeling Love?" He'd popped in the Arabian Knight soundtrack CD as a gag.
Post
#199895
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199895/action/topic#199895
Time
Welcome!

Pretty much all screenplays have business in them that might work on paper, but which becomes redundant with the visuals of film. It's all about knowing what to take out. In this case, I can see that business with Tack and the guards working in animation, but it fails at making him seem more heroic - if he does nothing, he's an innocent who's being harmed and Zigzag's ego becomes the focus.

Now:

The amazingly detailed logo for "Once ..."

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oncelogosm.jpg

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oncensm.jpg

In the N: Meemee and Yumyum (early versions), Tack (early version), Enchanted Prince Bubba, a Peacock, boots hanging in Tack's shop. The N tells the original two love stories of the film and sets up its environment.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oncecsm.jpg

In the C: Early Zigzag and Phido crawling out of the alligator pit, with early King Nod.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/onceesm.jpg

In the E: The Brigands including Roofless and Sgt. Hook, The Old Witch, a pointing finger, the hands of fate encircling the golden balls, flying ravens, dying soldier, arrows, Mighty One Eye.



Did I miss anything?


http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oncelogolarge.jpg
Post
#199773
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199773/action/topic#199773
Time
>> What's interesting is that Yum-Yum is really beautiful and sexy - but she's calling the shots a lot. Compare to Aladdin where Jasimine is pretty naive and shallow.

Oh, I like Jasmine too as a character - who is a traditional Ariel/Belle sort of archetype, she's trapped by being who she is and wants something more, blah blah, but she can handle herself. She knows how to get what she wants - and is likeable and talkative in that 90s-Disney way.

Yumyum can definitely handle herself. She's just a fun, funny and appealing character. The film makes a gag out of her trying to be an action hero at one point, but she's definitely in charge more than anyone else, and her affection for Tack comes off as very genuine. She is an ideal "beautiful princess."

She fits in with this film because her character is very simple but very appealing - I think every character in this film you understand the minute you see them. They're archetypes drawn simply with broad strokes.

A Disney film puts a LOT more sweat into developing the characters the way you would in live action - Aladdin can't just be a street thief, he has to sing and be witty and clever and have a heart of gold feeding small children - a LOT of dialogue to establish who the character is and what he wants. Which works perfectly for a new-style Disney film, which are in essence Broadway musicals.

Dick Williams is more of the old-style Disney persuasion. He doesn't go for dialogue obviously, he barely goes for story. His characters are understood through what they look like and how they act, in more of a Bambi/Pinocchio/Snow White sort of tradition. It's miles away from any live action leanings. Dick believes in these characters and likes them simple and understandable.

It's hilarious how much Calvert managed to ruin Yumyum by trying to bash her, crudely, into some sort of Disney archetype. They made her into a spoiled and irritating bitch (Bobbi Page voice), in love with herself ... whereas Dick's original is a likeable, simple soul who has a heart of gold somewhere.

>> Whenever the egos of Zig-Zag and Mighty One-Eye are going over the top the film basically mocks them.

Yep. Well, they're the villains in a comedy. I like how that works.


>> Tack is sort of a reluctant hero, but he's always doing what's good for everyone else. Peaceful and calm, too



>> This is why I'm glad the fight was cut out between Zig-Zag stepping on a tack and him being carried off (it's in the script only).

Are you hinting at something I should be doing in my edit? =)



EDIT:

Andreas Wessel-Therhorn told a story about how Dick really didn't like the Little Mermaid, but everyone working for him did. They were looking at the story and he was looking at the visuals. It really shows how Dick, at that point, was tied to Disney's past, not liking the new style they were going in, and the new blood were interested in Disney's future. Little Mermaid is a very good film, but a different kind of film. It's not Fantasia, the whole point being how pretty it all is ... it's telling an interesting story with songs that we can all enjoy, the visuals serving that only, not for their own sake. By Dick's unusual standards it might as well be a live action film.


And yeah, King Nod is a senile old fool, but we like him, and we can tell that he was once a great warrior and his people have a great respect for him, even in his declining years. Kind of haunting how they all chant "Long live King Nod" as he's coughing, with all there realizing that King Nod might not live long after all!

An important point about Williams' King Nod/Yumyum, versus Calvert's (Princess and the Cobbler here) - King Nod is afraid for his daughter, and starts running randomly and ineffectually into the street shouting "Help me! Help me to help her!" The film sees this as funny, because he loves his daughter and wants to help her but is useless at it, whereas she's young and can take care of herself ... we know that Yumyum will be all right without Nod's help.

In Calvert's version, he's redubbed King Nod, only now there's no humor in the scene, the fear King Nod has is genuine - The princess needs help! Because now she can't take care of herself, apparently. The scene becomes pointless.



EDIT EDIT: About Zigzag being an ineffective magician ... he still is in the script, don't worry. I'd forgotten about this, but in the script, he summons a giant dragon, which turns out to be a balloon contraption with him working the bellows. Tack deflates it easy. All smoke and mirrors, mechanics and B.S.
Post
#199664
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199664/action/topic#199664
Time
JustBanter - the workprint on myspleen is of poor quality. Although Chris loaded up that particular torrent with a lot of other stuff that is of much more interest.

The good workprint from Emule needs to be torrented somewhere.



>> it's interesting to see how sexualized the film is, as evidenced by the sketch of Yum Yum sitting on Nod's lap with her boobs in his face.

That shot isn't in the film - that's why I posted it. Very strange pose.

I like the final Yumyum, but then I like sexy princesses. The early designs are neat, but would be way too tame and Disney. Wouldn't really fit in this film. Think about it - at the time of "Once" she might as well be your Standard Disney Princess. Belle comes close.

The abstract sexuality of the final model actually fits the abstract design of the film, in a weird way. Her curves are bizarre but artful, and fit the bizarre but artful curves elsewhere. The face is expressive and appealing.


But yeah, that pose isn't in there. The movie is more like this (my traced art):
http://orangecow.org/thief/yumyumnodscancolorsoftweb.jpg

Than this:
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/yumyumonlapsm.jpg

>> Also, unless you start finding a lot more modern sketches of the Cobbler in his more masculine form, I'm inclined to think that Williams decided that he didn't want the Cobbler to change by such a degree, as the audience might have stopped empathizing with him. He's interesting as an innocent looking, rounded character. But the skinny angular looking version is just...meh.

I think they decided to make the change less obvious, yeah, especially in the face. But it's still evident in any storyboard in the workprint. Because Williams never animated anything of Tack in the entire end sequence, it's really hard to tell. Calvert's team didn't quite understand the changing Tack ... or anything else. Although you can still see it in your work.

>>Looking forward to seeing all of this stuff. Should I expect to suddenly see my gmail account completely filled up a couple weeks from now, with about 4000 attachments?

I'm a link man.




Upon watching the first scene with King Nod again, it looks to me like the test shot of Tack walking (seen in the Warner trailer) was used, for the most part, as Zigzag says "This lowborn cobbler of no worth attacked me in the square today" .... I think the first shot of Tack being shuffled into the throne room is also from that test shot. I'll have to check when I have a proper copy of the Warner trailer I suppose.
Post
#199507
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199507/action/topic#199507
Time
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/earlytack2sm.jpg

Another early Tack, in his "looks like the Hawaiian Punch Guy" days. Not an angular Babbit Tack though.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/tackprogressionsm.jpg

From cobbler to action hero in six easy steps! Step 4 is missing. The change seems much subtler in the finished film - then again, Williams didn't get to animate Tack in the ending, so who knows what that would have been like. Clearly Tack was coming together now.

Big:
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/tackprogression.jpg

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/yumyumfromonce2sm.jpg

More Yumyum from Once ... 88/89ish. Without her extra clothes we can see she's not far from Yumyum as we know her, minus all the hearts and curves ....

Bonus unpainted cel:

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/dyingsoldiersm.jpg
Post
#199503
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199503/action/topic#199503
Time
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/earlytacksm.jpg

Early Tack. Possibly from around the time of "Once ..." Possibly by Therhorn ... an attempt at modernizing the old Art Babbit Tack.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/therhornyumyumsm.jpg

Yumyum idea by Andreas Wessel-Therhorn I believe. What I like: more ethnic features, a slight belly, holding the two flowers, and the three golden balls on her forehead. Don't think this design was really in the running.



I've done 367 scans and I still haven't touched the Ken Harris or Art Babbit scenes yet ... or hit anywhere near close to bottom. It's 4:31 am.
Post
#199502
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199502/action/topic#199502
Time
Bubba.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/princebubbasm.jpg

This is the only shot of the Ogre prince I've ever seen animated ... and I've seen this same shot about ten times now in ten different places. So I'm guessing it was the only one animated ... or nearly so. Andreas said that very little of Meemee and Bubba was ever done.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/yumyumconcept1sm.jpg

This test for Yumyum was successful in removing her clothing and increasing her breasts four cup sizes. Her face is also becoming more beautified, although still quite nicely Indian or Middle Eastern looking here.

Dick liked the Yumyum seen in the 1988/9 Once... poster (where new designs for Tack and Phido were also tried out, which also made it into the final film), who had heart shaped jewelry.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/roseofthelandsm.jpg

"Rose of the land ..."

She's gained a veil and her stomach is now impossibly thin - she has no ribs.

This test shot was used in the final film, becoming the Yumyum we know and love today.
Post
#199497
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199497/action/topic#199497
Time
Old witch laughs girlishly, in a scene that didn't make it to the final cut. Note the longer hair (which might just be for effect) and rear end.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oldwitchlaughssm.jpg

Big:
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/oldwitchlaughs.jpg





This one goes out to Patrick.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/zigzaggrinsm.jpg

big:
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/zigzaggrin.jpg


http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/yumyumheadrollsm.jpg


And I KNOW when you look at that pic you're all craning your necks the same way. Yep.


http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/dancingbrigands1sm.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/dancingbrigandssm2.jpg

So, turns out that for about two seconds Dick considered having the Brigands do a dance number. He had Andreas do these concept sketches.

Between this and suggesting that Yumyum sing at the beginning in the script, it seems that Dick had come up with something similar to two of Calvert's song numbers himself, before Calvert. =) Weirdsville.


http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/yumyumfromoncesm.jpg

This early Yumyum from "Once ...", circa 1988 or 1989 or so, is the one seen on the "Once" poster. She is more demure and wears more clothing than the sexy Yumyum we know and love. Underneath the clothes though this is mostly Yumyum as we know her.

http://orangecow.org/thief/thieffromtherhorn/princesm.jpg

This background character is possibly another version of the Ogre prince, unenchanted.
Post
#199487
Topic
Army of Darkness - The Primitive Screwhead Edition (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199487/action/topic#199487
Time
Glad you're including Henry the Red. Please keep my suggestions for the opening sequence in mind.

I don't think there's any need to present an alternate cut of the battle sequences or indeed anything else (including alternate audio). Don't worry about that. Make one good cut. (Although do put the alternate apocalyptic ending on there!)

The Sci-Fi cut is worth preserving by itself, unmodified and exactly as it is - I also have it on VHS somewhere, an old showing with a different watermark.

Just slap the Sci-Fi cut onto a different DVD and call it a day.

I'm amused by some of the Bruce Campbell lines used to cover profanity in the Sci-fi cut ... "I ain't never even seen these apeheads before!"
Post
#199477
Topic
The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/199477/action/topic#199477
Time
Was gonna reply to that. =)

No, no screenshots of the restored workprint yet. Chris is sending it on monday. He did send some screens of the restored Arabian Knight which look promising. I won't post those because I want to wait til I actually see what he's done for these transfers, so I know what I'm talking about!


As far as this collection goes ... it's an embarrassment of riches. This whole project is, at this point. I mean, it's gonna overwhelm anyone. I like that idea that we're collecting so much stuff that most people will never get to the end of it ... just be able to keep looking at it when they want.



I like the color promo brochures quite a bit. I'll just say that I've been waiting six years to see a logo for "Once ..." and it was worth every day of that wait to actually see it. You'll see.....