msycamore

Darth Mallwalker said:

And I'll admit, I haven't explained it at all.

Each column is a release, mostly LaserDiscs, except the newest version of that spreadsheet I've inserted a column for Video Collector's ESB_TP also.
Each row is, or strives to be, the same frame of film.
In the GOUT column, those are the frame numbers you'd see in Virtualdub or Avidemux for example, with STAR WARS title card appearing at 688.
For example in GOUT 15585, you look for a '7' pattern beside R2, formed by motion blur in the snowflake trails.

Other columns, those are the frame numbers (actually more akin to 'frame labels' which we talked about briefly in another thread) that you'd see if you turn on your LD player's on-screen display, while in freeze-frame mode.

Yellow cells are missing frames, in that release, or half-missing in some cases.
JSC is missing the most (6.5 frames, or 13 fields) at that first 1000-ft reel change shown in the example.
Both SWE pressing (Techinidisc & Pioneer) are quite similar here, missing exactly the same frames/field although the labels are skewed.

There's more to it, regarding telecine cadence (which frames are 3's and which are 2's in the pulldown pattern) that I'll try to explain later, maybe in my 'reel change' thread.
Earlier in this thread we wondered if JSC & SWE are from the same source?
Well, if their respective pulldowns are out-of-step, they cannot be from the same telecine session.

Anybody interested in hearing more, or will I have no choice but to cancel this project?

Yeah, I got the general idea behind it. It's just that those numbers didn't make sense to me anyway. But what I get or not doesn't really matter, as long as it is investigated if it's a different telecine or not I'm happy. ;) Do both SWE pressings of Empire have identical framing/cropping, or are they slightly different as the Star Wars discs displayed?

zombie84 said:

The GOUT is the master created in 1993 for the DC, but I believe the same master was used again for the 1995 faces.

Correct, but the thing that is really bizarre about all this, is that some scenes on the DC LD's display more detail than the GOUT.

Darth Mallwalker said:

I've gotten roughly half way through the movie. So far, it's not very interesting


Pay no attention to the typo in D16 ;)

Thanks for sharing your finds! But what does this mean exactly? Sorry, maybe I'm stupid but I don't get that diagram you posted. :) Does the Technidisc miss some frames around that reel-change the GOUT have? but does it still have more frames intact compared to the SWE-disc?

I guess so. ;)

The Aluminum Falcon said:
Also, forgive me for not being the best at knowing the laserdisc releases, but does the "Special Widescreen Edition" collection use the Definitive Collection master or the JSC master? I know that ANH is the JSC master (with the shrinking ratio error though Darth Mallwalker seems to have found a fixed version); however, are ESB and ROTJ also sourced from the JSC masters?

Finally, can any kind soul upload DJ and Sega's JSC transfer to Megaupload or a torrent? I don't have newsgroup access, and it would be much appreciated.

The Definitive Collection LD set was released in '93, and that telecine is the source of all evil.

The Special Widescreen Edition LD's was the last pre-THX release and they uses the same telecine as the Japanese Special Collection LD's but apparently the picture quality on the Japanese pressing are slightly better than their US counterparts.

The fixed version of SW, Mallwalker found seems to be a different telecine, it doesn't lack those frames the JSC did, different cropping, different looking splices and it also includes a few damaged frames in the blockade runner that are fine on the JSC.

And why not get newsgroup access? 

SilverWook recently sent his captures but they haven't arrived yet.

Yeah, I may have copied Niel's old post when I did mine, but I think that grammar is in the original as well.

red5-626 said:

As for subtitles I have to suggestions.

1 use an LG TV with the ability to move the frame up so there is a big black bar at the bottom for the subtitles and a little black bar at the top

2 . Memorize all of Greedo ’s and Jabba ‘s lines.

Do you actually need the subtitles any more? LOL

With risk of sounding like a smartass, haven't people memorized these films completely? maybe we don't need their soundtrack either?

Sorry, but I've heard this reasoning before about the alien-subtitles and find it weird. To me they're part of the film as much as the classic opening crawl, no matter if you already know what it says. We also know how the film ends, right? ;)

But I can completely understand if some doesn't want re-created ones in the film either as they are not more original than player generated ones.

You can find his list of differences in my post here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-1977-70mm-sound-mix-recreation-stereo-and-51-versions-now-available/post/454341/#TopicPost454341

If you want me to upload the FSM magazine it originally appeared in, just give me a PM.

morgands1 said:

I can attest to the fact that shots of Leia, Han, etc., observing Luke in the medical center were not in the 1980 70mm version. I only saw those production stills taken on set after the film's run.

I believe what you say, and Mattessino's list of 70mm differences are also very trustworthy IMO, this guy apparently saw both versions of Empire in theatre about 70 times in 1980 and all his observations about the audio differences have since turned out to be true.

hairy_hen said:

Apparently most of the SE dialogue changes really were just revisionism,

Yeah, the mix was already perfect IMO, they just changed it for the sake of making it different it seems. One of the best things about the original mix that I think they totally destroyed with the SE-remix, are the subtleties in dialouge which makes the original sound so alive, take Yoda's teachings to Luke when he is on his back for example, where the surroundings intrude on the dialogue levels when they cut to R2, or when C-3PO on Chewie's back "I’m not supposed to know a power socket from a computer terminal" dial out in level as he is now further away from the action.

There are many examples like this in the original, but when it comes to the SE they just mixed the lines of dialogue at the same audable level no matter what happens on the screen. And the result is amatuerish and sound more like a bad dub in many instances. The only thing I like about the remix is the two intended musical transitions to the Imperial fleet.

hairy_hen said:

If msycamore says the length of the bacta tank scene is exactly the same, I believe him, because it certainly sounded that way to me.  They must have simply edited the picture differently but kept it the same length.  

I didn't make a truly exact comparison down to milliseconds though, just let the audio play over the GOUT video and it seemed to match up perfectly in lenght, so I guess the scene was just re-edited with the same audio supporting the scene.

I did play this audio file synced up to the GOUT video, and they match up perfectly audio lenght wise in this scene, either the above info I provided by Mattessino is wrong in this case or the 70mm still is in fact from a 35mm print as that collection of stills have one that shows our heroes observing Luke. Could it still have been edited slightly different but with the same audio track in this scene?

Zombie: Yeah, as I understand it, it should be a little shorter. Must take a listen and compare. Maybe they just moved around the shot of the others observing so the scene ends up equally long, which reminds me, aren't that shot included on the familiar 70mm stills.

IIRC the close up of Two-One-Bee and the subsequent pan to Luke should be included in one of the earlier trailers.

According to Mike Mattessino this is how that scene played in the 70mm:

The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a closeup of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending it's arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing.

On my quick listen these were the only clear differences I noticed:

The Imperial fleet establishing shot after the magic tree scene has a different TIE fighter sound effect. (Can also be heard on the foreign GOUT-tracks, SE have the music as originally composed for the scene)

In the final scene, there is no tracked music from "Yoda and the Force". The scene begins with the first establishing shot of the rebel fleet, then cuts inside the Falcon for Lando to say, "Luke, we're ready for take-off" (but a different take of this was used). After Luke says (voice over), "Good luck, Lando" the scene cuts to inside the rebel cruiser where Luke says, "I'll meet you at the rendezvous, " etc. Not in this version are two more establishing shots of the fleet and an interim effects shot over which Lando says, "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter we'll contact you."

Also, C-3PO's line, "Now remember, Chewbacca, you have a responsibility for me, so don’t do anything foolish" appear to be mixed as loud as on the '97SE. I'm not entirely sure about this one though as the audio levels on this recording can fool you easily.

Yeah, but in order to do a worthwhile reconstruction, you'll need all the alternate takes (Lando's lines for example) in good quality, are they even available on other sources? and altered footage to support it. But it shouldn't be impossible with all the technical skills around these parts, I guess.

I can't thank you enough, morgands1 for sharing this, such an amazing treasure. Never thought a recording like this would surface after all these years. :) Also nice to hear all the responses in the audience.

Fantastic to finally be able to hear how close it really was to the regular 35mm Dolby Stereo in terms of content, whining snowspeeder, shelter built, the same "the first transport is away", you're lucky you don't taste very good, I know where luke is etc. are all in the 70mm as well. Even the few extra lines and alternates heard here and there in the '97SE that many have claimed to be 70mm dialogue are not present.

Haven't listened to it from beginning to end yet, but the quality of the recording wasn't bad at all. What a damn fine job you did capturing this piece of SW-history and sharing it with us 30 years later! Simply amazing!

Holy shit!!  This is amazing! THANK YOU!! :)

Just a little update, I noticed some additional ugly artifacts in the chroma on the Italian video, so right now I'm trying to solve that issue with the help of Leo.

Sorry for my besserwisser behaviour. ;)

LexX said:

I noticed that there seems to be no echo in Emperor's voice, was that change made... when?

I can definitely hear the echo, it's there, just sounds a little weird and different with the higher pitched sound.

The quality on that Jedi trailer is damn good, I wish the other films trailers were in that good shape, however it has a quite huge yellow tint.

doubleofive said:

 My problem is that when they put the scanlines back on, they put them going the wrong direction...

Those thin vertical scanlines you see in the SE are probably present in the original hologram as well, you just don't see them because of the bad resolution, they just omitted the horizontal bars. Have not studied it, but that's my thought on it.

doubleofive said:

...making this the ONLY time that the scanlines are vertical in ANY hologram in the entire saga, including The Clone Wars!

That's not true, remember that there is vertical ones on the officers in Empire that I've pointed out in your thread. Both in SE and Original.

No, his 1997SE set is sourced from the european broadcasts.

Moth3r said:

Anyone know where these alternate takes are sourced from?

 I believe they come from the documentary "Empire of Dreams".

A nice little interview with Mike Matessino done for the time of John Williams birthday: http://popdose.com/the-composers-john-williams/