msycamore

danny_boy seems to have a UK broadcast recording:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Tantives-Orange-Items-Thread-other-unintended-objects/post/540411/#TopicPost540411

but he says his was broadcasted in '82, you might want to check with him 7FN.

Personally I would like to know if there has been any of these UK TV-broadcasts made available for download someplace, as the transfer they used for them are quite unique among the many pan & scan versions of the film, I would very much like to see one of them preserved.

Thank you for your hard work h_h! Very much appreciated! :) Haven't listened to your improved one yet but cannot wait to make this stereo my default audio track for the film as I already know it is great.

The difference in those comparisons you made are quite staggering to my ears, the 2004 remix is so ridiculously bad and match its video content quite well. ;) this proves you have done a damn good job, the audio editing in those segments are seamless!

none said:

Nope

 Thanks for confirming!

AntcuFaalb said:

I noticed this a few weeks ago while trying to come up with the minimal cropping needed for GOUT. Is this the only scene with this defect?

I actually don't know, I just happened to stumble upon this one as it was one of the parts in the Technidisc transfer that was in need of AR-correction.

Here's a color correction test I did on it a few weeks ago:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nt80g3

A vast improvement but still not happy with it, might need to go into RGB color space if I'm going to get satisfactory results. Haven't worked on this lately as I'm occupied with THX whenever the time allows it. I think I'll junk the sharpening applied on my test samples for my final encode as I wasn't happy at all with how it looked on my CRT-TV, looks better at first glance but then you realize you've just added a fake sense of detail, looks artificial, at least on my CRT but looks pretty good on my LCD-screen though. I'll however need to get rid of those horrible lobster faces. One thing I find very troublesome with regards to hues and timing is that even if the clips look ok on your calibrated PC monitor, the calibrated TV sometimes show you something different. I recently realized this when going through my settings on the THX 1138 LD. :(

I did however notice that this shot seems vertically stretched in the 2004 DVD:

or should I say it seems squished in the original as the 2004 is a fresh scan from the negative and is likely more accurate, the '97SE source I checked matched the GOUT and Technidisc, haven't investigated this further and I'm not entirely sure about this one yet.

none said:

Only posted one image.  It seems images.google.com find similar image autoprocessing is adding those extra box 'images'.  Off to the bug thread.

Oh, I see. Thanks for digging up that frame. Does that transfer also show these split saber artifacts caused by excessive DVNR?

Thanks none! I can't see all of them. :( Hmm... if the one that do show up is from the DC LD, then the "split-saber syndrome" was maybe only something the earlier pressings were affected by, I posted this frame from Dr Gonzo's preservation earlier in the thread:

The frame has been resized by imageshack I believe, hence the weird look of it. Anyway, I think he did the early pressing and as can be seen the stain/dirt isn't there, (if he didn't clean it that is).

Regarding all the different versions, besides the extended SEN footage, I forgot to mention the different order of scenes on the previous page.

Scene order in Italian and German TV-broadcast and SilverWook's English 16mm print:

Drug evasion arrest --> LUH visits THX --> Medical examinations --> Trial & "pain prods" (electro-shock batons) scene --> THX is being monitored & researched --> THX put in prison

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=709625

^ link to the comparison of the German TV version.

Scene order in English home video versions and 2004 Cut:

Drug evasion arrest --> Trial & "pain prods" (electro-shock batons) scene --> THX gets medical examinations --> THX is being monitored & researched --> LUH visits THX --> THX put in prison

If this odd re-ordering and the extended SEN footage is a TV-version thing or not, we don't know. I did watch the Italian broadcast again for the first time from beginning to the end since I made a DVD out of it, and I have to say I have an entirely different view of things now. First a little breakdown on what little info we do have;

The book "Skywalking" by Dale Pollock says on p.97 how Warner turned the film over to in-house editor Rudi Fehr:

"Fehr cut only four minutes from THX, mostly scenes in the White Limbo and some of George's bizarre attempts at humor."

George Lucas on the issue in "Maker of Films" from '71:

"Walter Murch did most of the soundwork, montages, what have you. The one problem is, that's one of the things Warner Brothers altered considerably, it was much more abstract and much more musical. The film was designed as a kind of opera you know, kind of a musical sience fiction film. And the soundtrack was composed under purely musical concepts and they didn't quite understand that, they thought they all had to tell the story. So essentially the biggest change is that they have injected more story, what they thought was the story, that's the story of... they took out all of the humor and the happiness and people laughing and stuff because they didn't..." (the interviewer interrupts him)

The original theatrical 1971 cut did also open with the Buck Rogers segment despite what is said on IMDB, a '71 review:

Back to the Italian broadcast, the 81 minutes duration match the US original threatrical cut yes, and there's many cuts throughout this version but the segments missing in the white limbo are few (one jarring cut when they monitor THX and another of a short monologue by SEN) and are very short in duration and everytime there is a cut in this version there's very rough splicing, there's also a jump in the audio at all these points, on some places the splicing actually causes the audio out of sync for a while, I recall I had to fix the sync on the intro when I made this DVD, maybe I should've preserved it as is. I wonder why there is such rough splicing, one of the first occur when it goes from opening titles to the first scene in the film, (many scenes from the english version went missing here) but here we still have the ongoing narration with a slight jump in the audio.

An example of the crude splicing...

^ after this scene where LUH and THX have an argument about SEN wanting to see her, it abruptly cuts to SEN's apartment.

But look what I found:

^ one single frame left of the following scene that got cut. ;)

The only thing that differs in this version besides the unique intro and missing footage that I think can maybe be attributed to Warner Brothers are those scenes I mentioned that got shifted around, as there's no splicing/jump in audio going on there.

However, right after the robot guards take THX away after LUH's visit, there's this little mystery that suddenly appears:

it then fades to black and medical examinations begin. Seems to me like a remnant from when THX is lying on the floor in the white limbo, (I believe it is his head we're seeing in the left upper corner) there's no visible or audible splice as seen elsewhere in this version, just a straight cut from the white room to this frame that fades away, very awkward and weird. This does seem to lend credence to this being something else than WB in-house editor's work, would be interesting to know if it is like that on your 16mm print as well SilverWook? maybe you can check that when you come back from your vacation.

Btw, here's how the cue marks look on this print if that can tell us anything?

Three white dots...

Thanks D_M! :) Any 4:3 letterbox DC preservations out there? or maybe someone could grab that frame from the actual LD?

With all my talk of incorrect aspect ratio... when I did the correction on the Technidisc I noticed that it almost perfectly match the 2004 DVD for the most part when I resize that transfer to 704x480, I also noticed that the GOUT-print is pretty badly warped, the distortion is worst in the left part of the frame, anyway what's interesting is that I also discovered that the lightsaber shot in Ben's hut in the GOUT transfer is vertically stretched or horizontally squished, it seems to me that they spliced in that part from a different source, probably because of the "split-saber syndrome" in the '93 transfer we talked about earlier in the thread.

Can someone please post this frame:

from the '95 "Faces" transfer, I'm just curious to know if the GOUT source actually match the "Faces" release rather than DC.

DisgruntledFan said:

Just ran across a review of THX 1138 in a March 1972 issue of the UK film magazine 'Films Illustrated' (Three stars out of four)

Nothing particularly amazing about that - but it lists the running time as 95 minutes !

Probably a typo, does anyone have a copy of 'Monthly Film Bulletin' from 1972 to cross check ?

The BBFC record says 95 minutes, that running time on the UK release seems to just be a typo that have managed to survive over the years, we discussed it some earlier in the thread and I also got some word back from a guy over at cult movie forum regarding this difference in running time seen on some UK VHS cases: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/456897/#TopicPost456897

An American Cinematographer article on Gil Taylor's work, it''s not a new article but a nice read if you haven't checked it out: http://www.theasc.com/magazine/feb06/taylor/page1.html

The Star Wars section of the article:

The cinematographer’s next project, Star Wars (1977), became a very different sort of high-water mark in his career. The picture’s groundbreaking visual effects earned the lion’s share of the kudos, but by grounding the fantastic story and settings with classical widescreen compositions and clean lighting, Taylor clearly set the visual tone for George Lucas’ space opera. Consumed by the details of the complicated production, “George avoided all meetings and contact with me from day one, so I read the extra-long script many times and made my own decisions as to how I would shoot the picture,” says Taylor. “I took it upon myself to experiment with photographing the lightsabers and other things onstage before we moved on to our two weeks of location work in Tunisia.”

One of the first scenes shot in Tunisia shows C-3PO and R2-D2 making their way across the dunes of Tatooine. The production was hampered by inclement weather — the first rain there in years — and “you couldn’t really see where the land ended and the sky began,” says Taylor. “It was all a gray mess, and the robots were just a blur.” Given the situation, Lucas’ request for heavy filtration perplexed the cinematographer. “I thought the look of the film should be absolutely clean; also, I was mindful that there was an enormous amount of process work to be done in America after we finished shooting in England, and I knew a crisp result would help. But George saw it a differently, so we tried using nets and other diffusion. He asked to set up one shot on the robots with a 300mm, and the sand and sky just mushed together. I told him it wouldn’t work, but he said that was the way he wanted to do the entire film, all diffused.” This creative difference was resolved by 20th Century Fox executives, who saw the results of Lucas’ approach and backed Taylor’s recommendation.

After the production traveled back to Elstree, Taylor confronted another dilemma. “[Art director] John Barry’s sets, particularly the Death Star, were like a coal mine. They were all black and gray, with really no opportunities for lighting at all. My work was a matter of chopping holes in the walls and working the lighting into the sets, and this resulted in a ‘cut-out’ system of panel lighting using quartz lamps that we could put in the walls, ceiling and floors. I thought I was going to get sacked, but Fox agreed that we couldn’t have this ‘black hole of Calcutta.’ So George concentrated on the actors while I took care of my end. This lighting approach allowed George to shoot in almost any direction without extensive relighting, which gave him more freedom. But he still wouldn’t talk to me, really. He was very much preoccupied.”

Working closely with producer Gary Kurtz, Taylor delivered a distinct look, and the cinematographer earned another BSC Award nomination — and enduring admiration from several generations of Star Wars fans — for his efforts. “I still communicate with fans from all over the world with autographs and photographs,” Taylor recently told one fan Web site. “I am most happy to be remembered as the man who set the look for Star Wars. I wanted to give it a unique visual style that would distinguish it from other films in the science-fiction genre. I wanted Star Wars to have clarity because I don’t think space is out of focus.”

Another interesting part from when the DVD-set was released back in 2004: http://www.theasc.com/magazine/jan05/dvd/page2.html

When I began watching Star Wars, from the moment I saw C-3PO and R2-D2 on the blockade-runner I knew something was amiss; something didn’t feel right. I kept watching with an odd, unbalanced feeling in my stomach, and it wasn’t until the story cut to Tatooine that I realized the cause: this was not the Star Wars I knew. A new color pass has been done, and the soft (nearly flashed), pastel color palette created by Gilbert Taylor, BSC has been replaced by very sharp, high-contrast, super-saturated imagery. The blues were nearly popping off my screen, and the blacks were so crushed that in certain scenes — especially those that take place in the Sandcrawler — the image was losing significant detail. The over-saturated blues have also washed out a lot of sky detail and appear to have negated some ND grads that appeared in the original photography.

Taylor’s photography on Star Wars was part of what made it unique — the picture didn’t have the sharp, high-contrast, snappy look of most fantasy films. Like John Barry’s inspired production design, which looks aged and worn, Taylor’s desaturated palette and use of nets created a muted, somewhat tattered look that helped ground the story in reality. With this new transfer, that look has been completely destroyed. The new color timing does, however, make Star Wars more closely resemble the other five films in the series, especially the latter ones shot by David Tattersall, BSC. Nevertheless, this change was jolting.

Nothing new really, everyone familiar with the look of Star Wars was feeling the same thing when we first saw that DVD transfer. It's just that this is the only time I have actually seen anyone comment on the disastrous 2004 transfers in a review, every review I read back in '04 instead praised the transfers. I will however say that the great cinematography of Empire was destroyed in exactly the same way as Star Wars.

lpd said:

Any Welsh members going to this?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/south-wales-news/merthyr/2012/07/26/the-force-is-with-theatr-soar-cinema-91466-31472288/

Cool, as they didn't show it for free there's a risk they got in trouble for it, hope it went ok.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

You've got some catching up to do! The "GOUT" is the one official DVD release that is pretty much identical to your VHS, only better quality. The DarkJedi version corrects many of the digital artifacts on the GOUT combined with a very high quality upscale. And Harmy's preservation is a full HD recreation of the original cuts using a variety of sources and difficult recompositing. Neither is a "fan edit". If you love the original films, you owe it to yourself to check these out. There are threads in the "preservation" section of the forum.

I don't care much for "fan edits" either. But the preservation efforts are pretty much what this forum is all about - preserving the originals. And if George won't do it, we will!

IMO Harmy's recreation fall somewhere in the fan-edit territory, as it contains After Effects compositing done by Harmy and leave some SE compositing in there, technically a new version of the film takes shape. I applaud his efforts and know that calling it a fan-edit is downplaying his work and intent, but I also feel that it's important that we draw the lines correctly of what is original and what is not.

You have this one mislabeled as an '97 update, it is a 2004 change.

^ Yeah, it's a great site, I should perhaps have linked to their main article: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/star_wars/index.htm

be sure to check it out if you haven't already, great stuff.

None, you should perhaps update the first post and add AntcuFaalb's bootleg to the list as it also contains the rare and probably original credits roll. So have the "original" credits roll only showed up in Moth3r's and AntcuFaalb's bootlegs and one 16mm print (Puggo Grande) so far?

Hope you get an answer from Mr. Edlund, none. If the Tech-prints have the revised credits roll we can finally be sure it was a revision made already in '77. The Technicolor IB prints were all made in '77, all got butchered in '81 by splicing in the revised opening crawl with Kodak film yes, but if they bothered to do the same with the end credits, I'm sure Mike Verta would easily be able to tell us.

But then again, if the Tech-prints does have the "original" I guess there's a small possibility the revised roll could still have been made sometimes later in '77 as we don't have a date for when exactly the IB prints were created. ;)

Sorry for my hasty answer, Harmy. I believe all of them are recomped in that last shot.

Haven't checked my mail in a few days thxita, thanks! :)

Your latest example is pretty damn impressive, Spaced Ranger. :) Hopefully it will work in the video realm as well.

negative1 said:

the outfits look like a different color (lighting?)

Missed this thought of yours, if you refer to the blue color of their shirts, that's how they are supposed to look, they shouldn't be gray but they do appear that way sometimes in many early transfers.

Spaced Ranger, I will PM you the links to the 16mm files as soon as I'm able to if you're still interested to play with them, there's very bad weather around here lately, so I'm a little paranoid to have my PC hooked up. The power comes and goes...

If someone would show up with a recording of such an early broadcast it would be really, really cool, we can hope and dream.

DisgruntledFan, thank you so much for those scans! excellent quality, very nice to see it in such a high resolution, much appreciated. :)

negative1 said:

note that during the clip,

from the 5-7 second mark

there is a reddish hue tint

on the bottom part. this would

have been cropped out when shown.

===========================

 

Not necessarily, the red glare is just the result of how that scene was shot, intentionally or not. It's probably the red lights above the door that caused it. Things like that is often part of the quick and dirty documentary style. It's visible in countless video transfers of the film, but much of it will usually be cropped out of course.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

It should be easier than syncing with the 16mm audio though (ironically), because capturing the 16mm sound involves a warbly old analog machine.  The frame-by-frame video capture is solid time-wise, but the audio is captured separately on a completely different machine in real-time.

Hmm, maybe that explains my trouble getting the THX audio in sync with the 16mm footage you sent me.

Yes, I believe so.

Treadwell said:

From what I've read, that was not the case in those days--that existing mono projectors could not read the stereo prints' dual optical track. That was the reason they did a mono mix in the first place.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure but here's how in70mm describes the issue,

Although the 35mm Dolby Stereo process was designed to be (and is) mono-compatible, at the time, those involved with the new technology were concerned about the effectiveness of mono playback from a stereo-encoded print for both technical and aesthetic reasons. For similar reasons, a decision was made not to create the mono master by means of dubbing the stereo master and "folding" the multiple tracks into one. Instead, a new dedicated mono mix was created from scratch.

Treadwell said:

Speaking of opening day, I thought that only 75mm houses were running the film on May 25.

Both 35mm Dolby and 70mm Dolby presentations was available opening day and apparently monaural and perhaps regular stereo presentations where Dolby was not yet available, here's a list on the first-week engagements: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/star_wars/chapters/theatres.htm

Those X-wing shots have some visible matte lines in the original and a slightly different position but other than that they are not that different so I understand you won't bother, those two recomposites are extremely faithful to the original, quite odd actually as they never bothered to emulate the original composites so precisely elsewhere what I've seen.

About those laser bolts, I'm only sure about those who appear in the absolutely last shot before Vader's entrance as the position and timing of them is so clearly different but there may be more of them in there of course. It's just such a tedious thing to go through and I guess even more so for you, maybe it's only those who appear differently in timing and position that's worthy of a despecializing if it's bothering you.

Maybe hairy_hen have something to say about it as he have worked with the tracks quite much and have a great pair of ears, but I'm pretty sure. Will be very interesting to hear what shape the mono is in on the prints, I also hope the missing frames on the LD's don't cause to much trouble when you're about to sync the audio Puggo.

SilverWook said:

Do we know for sure Empire's mix wasn't futzed with on the later releases pre DC?

I did some extensive comparison with headphones between the original 35mm Dolby Stereo, analog LD track and digital LD track quite recently and I couldn't notice any single difference other than minor differences in fidelity. I'm pretty sure they used the same mix over and over again but someone else may think differently. It's difficult to prove of course but content wise I'm 99.9% sure they are the same mix. I would be glad if someone would chime in and prove me wrong but I guess until someone asks Burtt about it we will never know for sure.