happycube said:
According to blamld the VHD version was not time compressed (nor was the 1983 Japanese CLV)
Interesting... can you confirm this, Poita? The problem with the '83 Japanese CLV would be the subtitles.
SilverWook, thanks for letting us know, I wish our bad luck could turn already. I've started to IVTC the pan & scan LD you sent me for an upcoming upload just to get a break from the letterboxed ones for a while. I think it's nice to have this one preserved as well even though it's censored.
Spaced Ranger, don't forget the reordering of scenes in the 16mm/Italian/German prints... see my post on page 49 where I did a little breakdown on all that we know about the versions so far. The reordering of those scenes is very much the kind of thing Lucas would do, just look at his 2004 edits but I'm sceptical about this one...
But even if it was specifically done for TV or foreign markets, it is a fucking bizarre thing to do, why was it done!!?? and the inclusion and absence of the short segment of the SEN scene is equally bizarre, isn't that the kind of footage Lucas would have liked to have restored in '78 or perhaps even more so in '04, if it was included in the '78 re-release cut, why would Lucas want it removed from the homevideo versions... at least now we know that the inclusion of the scene in the Italian broadcast wasn't just a TV version thing, it was in the Italian home video version as well.
Meow! :)
althor1138 said:
I believe I also found the reason why some of the whites were getting clipped. Mysycamore commented on this. I'd have never noticed it otherwise. The 480p stream that I originally released was essentially the raw capture encoded to x264 but I did apply a levels tweak which I thought would not clip anything. However, coring was by default set to true which automatically clips stuff when you use it(I think). This time I have not adjusted anything whatsoever. It's just been IVTC'ed and a couple wonky frames have been fixed but other than that it's untouched. It looks a bit washed out because of this but is easily fixable with a few tweaks. I plan on releasing it completely untouched this time however.
I skimmed through your 4:3 stream again and I actually don't know why I thought I noticed blown out whites the first time, there aren't any, I was talking crap so you may disregard what I said, sorry about that.
I was once again struck by how incredibly nice your cap is, that combfilter of yours sure knows how to deal with dotcrawl and rainbowing. :)
CatBus said:
The Nerd said:
Well, what about that shot of entering Mos Eisley? I don't mean the extended intro, but the shot that shows them on the speeder.
The original looks very cheap. R2 looks like he could fall of at any moment.
http://i.imgur.com/0QffC9l.jpg
The 1997 looks better, but C-3PO's arms are is awfully straight.
http://i.imgur.com/3DJD01x.jpg
The 2004/2011 version is the best. Apart from C-3PO's left arm looking straight.
You're not getting agreement here. Ultimately it's subjective, but the original, while cheap looking, serves its purpose as a quick establishing shot. The revised versions are far too distracting from that purpose with their unnecessary and silly animations. While the speeder itself looks better as a still image, the shot is worse as part of the film. And that's really what's wrong with much of the changes--even when they do manage to improve the look of a particular part of the shot, they often screw up other aspects of the shot, or mess with the pacing so badly that the whole thing falls apart. Unfortunately, aside from the credit for JEJ, I truly believe the best case scenario for SE changes is when they failed to make the film worse. Making it better isn't really in the cards. It's the editing that made the originals great, and it's the editing in particular where the SE's always fall apart.
Well said CatBus, while I agree that the speeder shot looks cheap, (it did even back when it was made) at least the model used resembles the actual speeder in the film. I mean if you're going to bother updating this shot - twice, at least try to get the CGI model to match the speeder in the film. To me it looks like Artoo could fall of at any moment in the digital versions as well.
It's not one of the proudest fx-shots in the film but it served its purpose, at least the original had its reasons for looking cheap, lack of money and time, the plate was actually originally meant for Toshi Station, that's why it's so sparse.
jero32, I understand that the main discussion here is the timing on the previous transfers vs. BD but what I wanted to understand in all of this was the source for these previous transfers, I now understand from what I've read about it that they are indeed separate scans and that the BD is now the third scan, probably old news to most of you... everything is clear to me now. ;)
Also, I should mention that there is one other shot where you get a quick glimpse of the boulder-pole which I didn't post, that makes it three altered shots of the iconic scene, in case anyone wondered. Someone mentioned it was Lowry that was behind these tweaks, no way.
There's a lot of guesswork from me of course but the main reason I suggested that the colors on the Wowow-HDTV transfer might be merely an adjustment rather than a completely new timing, is the digital tweaks they contain.
Chewtobacca said:
To me all three have the same timing, they differ yes, but I wouldn't call them completely different timings.
Obviously, this is subjective, but I can see a substantive difference between the Laser Pacific transfer and previous releases in terms of color. It's not huge, but I would say it counts as a different timing.
The AF is the one to ask about the different transfers though.
Oh yes, absolutely they differ, the "Laser Pacific transfer" is warmer and have much better skintones than the DVD, even subtle differences in hues makes a huge difference. Still, it doesn't look like a complete new timing to me, more like a much better representation of it but I may be wrong.
Check my comparisons on the last page for example, that is the same timing to me even though the untweaked shots are a much better representation, not as big a difference as the DVD vs. HDTV perhaps. (quite ironic the bonus feature material look better than the main feature) Differences in tints shouldn't imo be confused with a whole new timing done, there could be lots of reasons for why these encodings look like they do.
Personally I'm not 100% satisfied with any of these transfers but I favor the wowow version with my TV settings on warm.
And who is AF?
You're welcome guys, and sorry if I ruin some movie magic for some others. So what about the pole for the boulder on the BD? I completely forgot to check that on my viewing, it was reported to be gone on the Imax screenings.
I've got no knowledge about the different scans made in the past, I keep seeing Laser Pacific and Lowry masters often mentioned, but why is it that the wowow (said to be laser pacific) match the Lowry 2003 DVD to 100% in terms of content then?
The other HDTV version (said to be Lowry based) contain the mysterious additional CGI matte shot not seen in the DVD, someone care to explain these matters for me.
To me all three have the same timing, they differ yes, but I wouldn't call them completely different timings. The fact that they all contain these subtle digital tweaks, doesn't that tell us something.
Weird, those frames are definitely out of order. Great find D_M! What did they smoke when they mastered this one, so many odd anomalies in it.
Chewtobacca said:
What's the source of the untweaked shots (apart from the trailer)?
The source for the untweaked shots is the making of featurette included on the 2003 DVD trilogy set, so better than LD but still 4:3 letterboxed and interlaced material, the boulder scene should be in its complete form, not sure about the well of souls bits. The tweaked shots were all from the same DVD set btw.
Ok, I managed to get a friend of mine to send me pics of the tweaks, he thinks I'm a total crazy son of a bitch. ;)
top: original below: tweaked
Boulder - 1st shot:
Boulder - 2nd shot:
see the left of the boulder... two more of the visible rod, taken from the trailer:
Well of the Souls - not the best pics and these are actually much easier to spot in motion as there's lightning (thunder), fire and movements that reveals reflections in these shots, but I marked the most obvious mark in the glass that was removed, if you look close enough you'll see additional scratches and marks that was removed below and to the right of the snake where Fords face earlier passes in the shot.
same mark removed in this shot...
For some reason they seem to be perfectly fine with leaving this shot alone:
For the tweaked Pan American Clipper matte shot, I found this one: http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=14343&cap2=14327&art=full&image=2&cID=1273&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
See the water reflections and removed matte lines. When the tweaks made are this subtle, I'm pretty sure there might be more of them...
These kind of minor tweaks are definitely done with good intentions and are quite tastefully done, but unfortunately it is these minor and often hard to see tweaks that can make the most damage in terms of the history of the film.
One thing I liked about the reflections in the cobra scene is that you got reminded that this was not a special effect but instead done in camera, beautifully shot.
AntcuFaalb said:
Here's a question: What does RotLA look like on LD?
Depends which one you choose to watch, the '90's LD is very close to the DVD's whereas the '80's video transfers are warmer and imo closer to the original. I actually find the brightness and contrast levels on the BD to be off in several instances. Spielberg has also admitted to deliberately have tweaked the opening jungle sequences to be a tad brighter than they were originally.
You asked in the Terminator thread about the changes I mentioned, I can unfortunately not provide any comparisons until the end of the week when I get home, maybe someone else beats me to it but like I said in that thread, the Wowow-HDTV version contain all the same subtle tweaks the 2003 DVD introduced;
A pole connected to the giant boulder for the guide track was removed in two shots, for those who don't have access to the original and don't know what I'm talking about, check the left part of the boulder, it's visible in the original trailers as well. (It was this one along with the matte shot I referred to in the other thread that I assumed they had restored on the BD, I've actually forgotten to check if this is still gone in the BD, I now believe it is after talking to a friend of mine.) :(
The Pan American Clipper - matte shot was tweaked, see the water reflections, particularly under the front of the plane - restored on the BD.
Snake reflection and plexiglas marks removed in the Well of the Souls.
I suspect there could be more of these subtle tweaks, never done an extensive comparison between versions and no documentation is out there as far as I know.
borisanddoris said:
How out of sync are they? Are they just the LaserDisc sides, or is it a matter of applying a delay when muxing, say to Harmy's DE?
There are gaps every mid-reel with lots of missing frames on all the pre-THX transfers of the trilogy (with the exception of SWE - Technidisc) so there's quite much work involved gettin them in sync with the GOUT transfers which are more or less complete frame wise. Darth_Mallwalker posted a great documentation to usenet some time ago on the ESB LD's he checked, great reference material for audio syncing.
dvdmike said:
They are identical to the Blu as far as changes go, the Blu has the removed reflection also nothing else was changed
Sorry d_j & You_Too for being off topic, but I just want to be clear regarding this. Trust me dvdmike, I know what I'm talking about. I own that broadcast version myself (which contain the original jeep down the cliff-shot) and the BD. It's true that the BD oddly enough kept one 2003 tweak (reflection removal) but others were restored to their original state, if you don't believe me, compare the 2nd matte shot in the film; see the reflections in the water from the plane in the port for one example. (Would post comparison examples for you if I had access to my PC but I'm on the phone.)
I'm sorry to disappoint you but there was more subtle little tweaks other than the "cobra reflection" in the original DVD transfer that still is present in that stellar broadcast version. As to that CGI cliff-shot that mysteriously appeared in one of the broadcasts, no idea when it was done, Spielberg has said it was a mistake it got out there, maybe South Park had an effect afterall. ;)
TServo2049 said:
Actually, the WOWOW broadcasts had the original jeep drop.
Yes, I know but I'm talking about the subtle tweaks that originated with the 2003 dvd.
Impressive color work on T1 You_Too!
Regarding the various broadcasts of Raiders, keep in mind that they contain digitally tweaked fx-shots which the BD finally restored.
CatBus said:
If I spelled it like it sounded again, I'd say he said "siyyown sweetheart".
He was drunk.
But I see where msycamore gets "silence" from. If you blend the words, the first word can be "siyyowns".
Thanks for getting back to me regarding that line, it's funny how certain misheard lines of dialogue in movies tends to stuck even when it doesn't fit, this is one of those for me, I'm just glad to hear your takes on it. :)
CatBus said:
Well, you already know my take on that one, so are you fishing for a second (third) opinion?
Yes, sort of. ;) I was happy with your answer and take on it, but was expecting to hear more of it from others, not necessarily in order to get a satisfying answer in the style of you are correct or you are wrong, I was just hopeful we would get others takes on these tough to hear lines... find it fascinating.
Also, after another listen to the Greedo vs Han I completely agree, it's definitely "over" with a sort of absent 'o'.
CatBus said:
Yep, I still hear "over" too. Although honestly it's more like " 'fer my dead body." C'mon, Harrison, enunciate!
Ha ha... I guess I'm beaten then, the script and you two against me. Can someone please set me straight about Ford's "Sit down sweetheart, we're taking off." vs. "Silence sweetheart..." in ESB?
Damn, I can't check the samples due to my damn internet connection being down.:( personally I don't mind the noise in these, they are what they are... old letterbox transfers, but I can also see why some would like it denoised when watching on a modern screen so...
g-force said:
msycamore said:
Will be very interesting to see how your fine gear treat the somewhat problematic Technidisc LD (althor has offered to help cap it for me :)
How exciting!
-G
Yes, indeed. Your fine derainbowing won't go to waste though, will upload a fixed version before so I feel better deleting this capture.
Ouch, sorry to hear there is problems with your uploaded mkvs :( good it was spotted when you still worked on it though.
Greedo: "He may only take your ship."
Solo: "Over my dead body." says the script
"From my dead body." says Harrison
You might have it in place already, just thought I would mention it. Looking forward to apply your awesome sub-work...
This is awesome news, the art style on that page preview looks fantastic. We should be grateful that we have a person like Rinzler aboard Lucasfilm.