schorman13 said:
2. IVTC and combined the captures in Avisynth using a modified version of the Median script posted to originaltrilogy.com by user mysycamore.
I might have posted that Median script somewhere around here but it is entirely the work by g-force, not me.
Nice work as always, schorman!
CapableMetal said:
The Japanese Special Collection features a shrinking aspect ratio (ANH only)
No, it doesn't. It's only the Pioneer/Mitsubishi pressings of ANH - Special Widescreen Edition that does.
CapableMetal said:
The Pioneer/Mitsubishi pressings use the same master, and the later Technidisc pressing uses a newer master with a fixed ratio and more vibrant colour, but is subject to disc mastering issues usually presented in the form of picture cross-talk. These releases are CLV.
While the Technidisc pressing doesn't have the same issue as the Pioneer/Mitsubishi pressings due to using a different film source and master, its cropping varies quite much - about two thirds of the film is quite heavily cropped with an aspect ratio closer to 2.25:1 rather than 2.35:1/2.40:1. So the parts that are not as cropped are instead vertically stretched.
AntcuFaalb said:
[Part 1: The LD Player]
[Reserved for Part 2: The Comb Filter]
[Reserved for Part 3: The Capture Card]
[Reserved for Part 4: Cables, etc.]
Sounds great AntcuFaalb, I'll try to post those examples of smearing on Silver's captures I talked about earlier so you can compare if it's in the master or not.
Spaced Ranger said:
SilverWook said:
The WB Tv logo at the end dates the print to pre 1984...
So, any release with the WB Kinney logo would have been mastered sometime 1970 through 1972.
However, with Lucas' Star Wars success (post 1977) and WB subsequently re-releasing THX 1138 (with the WB cuts restored), did WB simply put the excised footage back into the master and make new distribution prints (Lucas' restored original/1st edit) ... with the original logo also unchanged? Lucas probably wasn't even involved in that one (beyond demanding that it be done).
As the old WB Kinney logo is part of the film in this instance (in opening & end credits) a proper restoration should always contain it, films always gets its modern up to date distribution logo before the film starts anyway (before Buck Rogers in this instance) and after the end credits. In the early home video versions of THX they instead updated the in-film logo at the beginning with their current one. An ugly move, but not that uncommon, it happened on the P&S releases of Star Wars in the 80's or 90's as well. In short, all three theatrical releases of THX 1138 contained the old WB Kinney logo but the '78 re-release most likely had this one:
before the actual feature began and obviously this one in 2004:
There is of course a possibility they actually replaced the Kinney with the Communications Company logo for the '78 prints but I would be very surprised if that was actually done. Even SilverWook's 16mm print still had the original logo in place.
Spaced Ranger said:
From the WB re-release forward, a TV broadcast would be of Lucas' restored original/1st edit (excluding mangling by individual TV stations or networks).
Yes, I guess so. I wonder if THX ever got broadcasted between '71 and '78.
Spaced Ranger said:
So any broadcast that included those missing SEN shots would identify it as Lucas' original edit. -- Does this sound right?
IMO it doesn't sound right to identify it as such if it's a TV-edit of his restored film but I guess that was what it was advertised as at the time.
Speaking of TV-versions, have Spielberg's classic TV-movie Duel ever been re-broadcasted in later years? A case where only the theatrical version is available, would love to get my hands on the original US broadcast version. I guess we can only hope they include it on a new upcoming release, it's Spielberg's preferred cut after all.
All right, I have discovered yet another subtle print variation but this time I found it in reel 5. As I suspected, the credit roll and X-Wing matte shot were not the only things revised.
The very subtle difference is in the matte shot of the rebel base - while the live-action footage utilized for the shot is exactly the same, the timing of it is slightly different, causing us to see five frames less of it from the beginning and five more frames of it at the end in the 80's video master.
Top: Special Collection LD Below: '06 Bonus DVD
First frame:
^ see the different position of the rebel trooper in the middle of the frame.
Last frame:
So why the heck did they bother to revisit this shot? that's a good question but the reason for it may have been the blue streaks that appear across the frame at the end of the shot:
A video sample of the scene from the Special Collection resized to 16:9: http://www.sendspace.com/file/6f0g9o
As with the X-Wing matte shot, the same pattern follows...
Blue streaks:
No blue streaks:
SilverWook said:
As Carrie has said the metal bikini was George's idea, what else came straight out of his twisted mind? ;)
It's talked about in this recent interview with Rinzler on his new book:
http://www.fandango.com/movieblog/interview-celebrating-30-years-of-return-of-jedi-with-lucasfilm-insider-742402.html
“In a way Marquand should get the lion's share credit for that, because it was his idea. I think he saw [Carrie Fisher] in Empire and thought ‘Boy, they're not really showing her figure at all,’ and sort of went the opposite extreme. [The concept artists and costume designers] were inspired by Frank Frazetta art and came up with this amazing slave girl costume, which hit a chord.”
SilverWook said:
The "snap pans" in the 16mm print are a pan and scan attempt at showing the whole scene. Try running them side by side, and you'll likely find it's the same shot. Pan and scan can be less obvious to the eye when it's done on film versus a video master.
Yeah, it's basically down to the telecine operator how to handle it, so it can differ quite a lot between versions, especially on films in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. Sometimes they even made cuts instead of a pan inside the frame.
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
corellian77 said:
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Imagine the love scene with Carrie Fisher and William Shatner...
Actually, I was suggesting that we imagine them as they are today.
Spaced Ranger said:
Only these small sections will be included as "interesting extras" for this preservation.
Don't forget the '78 re-release trailer (it's low quality but kind of neat) and the 4 original 1971 Radio Spots, it turned out I had saved them on one of my external disks after all. :) I got some material besides this that might make for potential extras but I guess you'll have to decide what to do with it when you receive the stuff. To get a watchable copy of the true film out there is what's most important IMO.
Spaced Ranger said:
If we have a better guess on when the "missing scene" disappeared, the above date will be corrected. Feel free to chime in.
All English home video versions of the film from 1982 - 1995 lack this extended footage (including the revisionist-cut from 2004). If it was present in the original theatrical run in '71 and omitted for the '78 re-release we cannot tell for sure. It's present in the Italian and German TV-broadcasts as well, SilverWook's 16mm print also shares the same weird editing differences in the middle of the film (reordering of scenes) as those two broadcast versions.
SilverWook said:
It's unlikely it's a broadcast print, (except for the third reel) as even partial nudity was not going to be shown on broadcast tv.
I don't know how this stuff worked on US broadcast TV back in the day or these days for that matter but as it shares those same weird editing differences with the other broadcast versions, is there a possibility it could have been down to the TV-network to decide what to show and what not to show of the prints?
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
This result is excellent, but I don't think a single adjustment will be right for the whole movie; more tests should be done on different shots to prove if that technique will work.
Yes, you can obviously forget one single adjustment for the whole film. The point was, there's no isolated manipulation of the image in the THX release to get those colors which some people seems to think.
Turisu said:
Personally I can't stand the THX DVD's digitally tweaked look. I'm just making the point that there was more than simple color regrading that went into making it look that way.
I don't think there was any magic involved, this fella over at horrordvds: http://www.horrordvds.com/vb3forum/showthread.php?t=44865&page=17
managed to approximate the look by simply adjust the yellow color channel.
As you can see, it can easily be accomplished without isolating specific sections of the original image if that's the look you want.
SilverWook said:
Skimming through my yellowed copy of Once Upon a Galaxy, the only mention of Kurtz in the post production phase is in the November 2nd 1979 entry.
Author Alan Arnold went to Kurtz's Sausalito home with Irvin Kershner to pilfer records to use as a temp track for the ESB score. Kurtz was out of town at the time.
Post production is the most brief part of the book though.
Yeah, Rinzler's book cover much more of the post production than Alan Arnold's journal but I don't recall the details. But like Kazanjian mentioned he was still very much involved - present for the mixing and timing etc. He's also present on the spotting sessions with Williams as seen in the BBC documentary on John Williams, and there's this interview: http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/11/11/an-interview-with-gary-kurtz?page=4
IGNFF: Do you think that he felt he'd outgrown the need for a set of controls... A "no-man"?
KURTZ: I don't know. I don't think we ever talked about it in those terms, but I think that he did chafe a bit under the idea of someone saying "that's not a good idea," some of the time. At the very end of Empire ... we decided at the very last minute – we pretty much locked the picture in the mix and just getting ready to make 70mm prints – and we decided that there had to be an extra shot at the very end, to identify this rebel fleet.
If you remember how the end works, it's before you go into the medical department, who are working on Mark's hand. It's the establishing shot of the fleet, and we had a shot already of going into the window and showing Mark inside, and we just decided that it was confusing We didn't know exactly how that was sorted out, so we wanted a long shot at the beginning, and then one at the end that shows the whole fleet when the Falcon flies off. They weren't very difficult to do, and all the ships were there ... just pile up the composites, and they were rushed through, just to get it done. Very last minute. One of them wasn't particularly good, and George said, "Oh well, maybe we should just let it go."
I said, "It's worth at least one more go through. One bad shot can ruin the whole movie, basically." Which I really believe is true, and it just wasn't very good. It was just a compositing problem, had nothing to do with the individual shot elements – I can't even remember what shot it was, now. I think making a movie wears everybody down. You have to be really careful of the decisions you make at the very end, because you can kind of throw a monkey wrench in, very easily.
Going by this, he doesn't seem to be someone that's been seriously cut off from the production. He is also the one doing all the promotion and interviews at the time of release, not Kazanjian. See the Japan release for just one example.
SilverWook said:
Guess that finally explains the hairdo! ;)
Scary that the beard still exists...
Maybe the same beard Ewan McGregor wore in the prequels. ;) F****** horrible.
I only find the whole timeframe and the messy way Lucas handled the "replacement" interesting due to the fact we're seeing Kurtz still heavily involved during the entire post production, promotion and release. Interesting stuff.
SilverWook said:
ATMachine said:
Making of ROTJ reveals that Kurtz was indeed replaced during post-production on ESB (in late 1979). According to Howard Kazanjian's recollection, Kurtz showed up one day and Kazanjian had to tell him that he was no longer allowed to work on George's movie.
Which came as a total surprise to Kurtz, apparently. Kazanjian had expected that Lucas would have told Kurtz he was being let go, but apparently Lucas preferred to let Kazanjian do his dirty work for him. (Later, when asked by Kazanjian, Lucas would deny that he had failed to inform Kurtz of his impending dismissal.)
Kurtz accordingly sent in his letter of resignation to Lucasfilm on December 11, 1979.
The purge started a lot earlier than I thought. Lucas' loss, but Jim Henson's gain.
I'm amazed we're getting such an unvarnished look at what must have been a more tumultuous production than even ESB was.
Rinzler's previous book on ESB did state that he was effectively replaced as producer by George Lucas & Howard Kazanjian before the shoot was even finished but it has always been a bit unclear on exactly when it happened.
starwarsaficionado made a great interview with Howard Kazanjian a few years ago where it gets mentioned as well.
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/6337672/howard-kazanjian-interview-2009-pdf-1-7-meg?da=y
You were involved behind the scenes on THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (trailing Gary Kurtz?) and then went in to the producer seat for REVENGE (later RETURN) OF THE JEDI. Was it just a case of going straight from GRAFFITI into EMPIRE? When exactly did you start? Were you previously involved in any of the principal photography/critical filming decisions on EMPIRE?
KAZANJIAN: Yes, no, yes. I was very much involved in Empire as it was being developed out of the Universal Studio offices we had. Gary Kurtz and I shared those offices while George would fly down and meet with the conceptual artists – Joe Johnston and Ralph McQuarrie. Kurtz was mostly in London where he had a beautiful home and was working on The Dark Crystal. The company and ILM had not relocated to Marin County as of yet. I was in every meeting with Ralph, Joe and George. We were also waiting for the script of More American Graffiti from writer/director Bill Norton. And we were waiting for a rewrite and developing Radioland Murders that eventually we cancelled.
George had told me to get very involved because I would be producing the third Star Wars film, not Gary Kurtz. Gary, of course did not know this. Problems arose on The Empire Strikes Back that I will not discuss here. George sent me to London to finish the last two weeks of shooting. I worked at ILM that now was located in San Rafael and watched most of the editorial and postproduction progress. I was also at the mix at the then Goldwyn Studios. Gary came back in to Los Angeles for the mix, timing of the picture and release.
The situation also gets mentioned in Empire Building, based on interviews with Kurtz and Alsup (Kurtz's secretary): There was never any official dismissal by Lucas, it was really bitter and messy, and Kurtz felt it was time to move on, as he was sidelined by Lucas and would have no role in ROTJ's production.
imperialscum said:
ATMachine said:
Kasdan on the other hand challenges Lucas all the time
Well these conversations prove that the notion that prequels failed because no one challenged Lucas is wrong. It is pretty clear to me now that he always had it his way. Luckily in OT he had relatively great ideas as opposed to the prequels.
No, it reaffirms what we already knew, which is that Lucas got to have it all his way on ROTJ and the prequels.
ATMachine said:
Lucas: Well, we have to deal with it so that a seven or eight-year-old kid will say, "Gee, isn't that too bad about that man." We have to elicit sorrow at this point, not repulsion. We want to make him as realistically screwed up at this point as possible without going too far. I mean, the truth of it is, we went overboard on the whole thing on the last picture. It wasn't supposed to be that grotesque; as a matter of fact you weren't supposed to see any of that at all, it was supposed to be a total silhouette.
The above statement from Lucas speak volumes, his dissatisfaction and bitterness on how ESB turned out is quite clear.
Davnes007 said:
Ya...I heard that there's a seventh one coming out soon. I wonder who's gonna direct it?
I have also heard there's a Die Hard 7 on its way...
As long as there's an exploding moustache guy in the new film it may stand a chance in its fierce competition.
Damn, this is pretty damn clumsy. I think I lost them in a HD-crash I had some years ago but... damn! THXita or Leo did you save them?!
Flexicon9 said:
The '99 THX DVD color-timing just makes the film, for me, so much creepier and foreboding. I think Carpenter said in the original commentary that Halloween 1978 owes a lot to Suspiria. In fact he definitely stated this in that Criterion commentary track. It's like an homage of color to Argento. Now I am no authority on Suspiria or Argento, having just been recently exposed to his work. But I now more fully understand what Carpenter was getting at. Modern technology may have allowed him to more fully realize that vision. It may not be definitive or correct, but it sure is awesome to behold. It's really my favorite version of Halloween.
What Carpenter was talking about was the repetitive quality of the musical score which functions in a similar manner to what you hear in Suspiria. But you can sort of see the influences in other ways too - the way they shot and lit the escape of Myers in the beginning of the film comes to mind, reminiscent of the beautiful cinematography you see in the taxi in the opening scenes of Suspiria.
As a huge fan of Carpenter's work I've managed to see Halloween several times in the theater and both the Criterion and THX DVD does not strike me as anything very far removed from the prints I've seen, (but I'm going from memory and I know that's a dangerous thing). I have not seen the new BD but the way I understand it, the '99 THX transfer was made from an Interpositive timed by Adam Adams and approved by Cundey, whereas the new BD is said to be a scan of the original negative and approved by Cundey. The iconic blue night scenes should definitely be there, it's a well known fact and it's also present on the negative B-roll footage according to Don May, and it should be as it wasn't done in post but specifically lit that way by Cundey. For this release it seems the daylight scenes is what causing the controversy instead and I must honestly say that the "fall colors" I'm seeing on various screencaps doesn't jive with my memories of the "true" look of the film and neither does the new BD. I would bet the true color timing is somewhere in between the two as I recall some scenes being a little too saturated on the '99 DVD whereas the BD caps I've seen look a little too muted, but then again I've not seen the new BD so I shouldn't really speak my opinion about it.
borisanddoris said:
Stamper said:
The way it looked in 1978 is not "definitive" because it was a crap, ultra low budget film that barely allowed the filmmaker to fill up their intended look, the prints were probably made with the cheaper prints factory out there, why would anyone want to preserve the cheap look? This is BLU RAY we don't want a preservation of the cheap, we want the BEST PRESENTATION.
1999 THX got it right.
Could the same be said for Star Wars too?
Seriously...aren't we in this to preserve the original look, even if it was shit?
Indeed, this is sending the wrong signal. And amazingly Carpenter didn't get this film processed by some cheap labs despite its low-budget origin, that's one of his trademarks and what's so unique about him, he can make the cheapest low-budget film look like an expensive hollywood production. And this was just one of the steps he took:
Tommy Lee Wallace in 2010 - "He (Carpenter) made damn sure that three things happened - that the film got shot in Panavision with the best lenses they had, that it was processed at MGM labs which is the best around and that it's doing its post production at Goldwyn Sound, which was the best sound-house in town. That meant our crappy little three hundred thousand dollars could look like millions."
No matter what people think about Cundey's timing on the new BD, the release is still ultimately a big failure due to not including something as simple as the films original audio mix. And I do wonder why some still asking about the audio, matt_stevens posted a link in the first post of this thread that clearly explains it for those who are uncertain about its history. The changes done are very subtle yes, but if you know your Halloween it's easy to tell the difference. This new BD does NOT contain the films original audio and that's a real damn shame.
NeonBible said:
Is the mono track on the criterion laserdisc different to the one on the THX DVD?
One is a LPCM track and the other is a AC-3 track, otherwise they both contain the true and IMO only way to listen and see this film. If not Anchor Bay suddenly decided to change the audio on their re-pressings of the '99 disc you should be able to hear the film as it was meant to be heard.
Sort of nice to see I wasn't going crazy when it came to the difficulty syncing the 16mm audio after all. I don't believe Puggo is following this thread so PM is indeed the way to go to get his attention on this I think. It's damn weird that the audio goes so much out of sync on such a short clip, hopefully Puggo can help us sort it all out.
SilverWook, do you still have those original Radio Spots posted on starwars.com? When going through my THX stuff I couldn't find them. :( If you saved them, can you please upload them for us, thanks.
PDB said:
Wow, good call msycamore, never noticed that difference. The blu-ray is exactly the same. The "Oh Jesus" is almost non-existent on the BD 5.1, but mixed at normal levels on BD mono. The 5.1 seems to be the same as the MGM DVD 5.1. Also I checked the BD's mono vs the LD's mono and they seem to be the same, so the BD's mono seems to be the original. (The LD also has the "Oh Jesus" mixed normal)
Thanks for going through the trouble and confirming that for me! And yes, the audible Tom Atkins line in the mono track is definitely one telltale sign it isn't a simple downmix, but unfortunately the muffled quality of that track is so bad it's not even an option for me. Might be seeking out one of the earlier LD issues with analog mono for a potential better sounding mono track. Is it the '95 Widescreen LD that you own?
Great stuff you guys are doing! :) Hope to help out adding to this list when the time comes. Wish I had your expertise when it comes to syncing audio. So are everyone of these tracks only prepared in a synced state? It would be fantastic if the raw rips also gets preserved as to not being locked to a specific video transfer for future use.
Need to check which LD issue of Dirty Harry I own, I'm 99% sure mine got the original mono.
I went back to examine the audio on the old MGM's Reg1 The Fog DVD and the mono track available on it may actually be the real thing contrary to what I previously stated in the first post of this thread, but the quality of the track is so flat, muffled and bad in its quality it's hard to tell for sure what it really is, the original track on my old VHS is so much superior in comparison it's not even funny.
The 5.1 provided on that same disc is actually pretty damn good and a much closer representation of the original mix in its clarity, but being a modern re-mix it also have its issues such as missing or inaudible fx and dialogue, the inaudible "Oh, Jesus." line in the car from Tom Atkins character (Nick Castle) in close-up when they rescue the kid comes to mind as one of the most awkward errors.
Reports and reviews of the BD seems to indicate Shout Factory ported the audio from the MGM release but this time they're of course in DTS-HD Master Audio. PDB, if you ever find the time to examine this for me could you please check and confirm that this mixing-error is still present in the BD's 5.1 track?
Chewtobacca said:
The new BD of The Fog looks far better than the old one.
No questions about it, the first BD release looked horrible.
PDB said:
This is sad, how hard is it to put the original mono on there in loseless. I wish Shout factory had Halloween. They put the original stereo soundtrack on their Fog release. They have become what Anchor Bay was in the early days of DVD.
Have not yet upgraded from my old MGM reg1 DVD, due to being slightly scared by these image comparisons: http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/fog-collectors-edition-the.html
Can you tell for sure Shout factory's disc does indeed include the original mono mix and not just a downmix? Very interested to know about this.
