msycamore

Hmm... apparently this guy did have the 16-track original masters, here's what Lukas Kendall had to say over at the FSM Board:

"I was at a Star Wars-related convention in L.A. maybe 6-8 years ago where Dan Melson had a booth trying to sell these tapes he got from the John Neal estate—he's been trying to unload them for years. He has every right to own and sell the master tapes, even though he does not own the intellectual property recorded ONTO the tapes. He always asked a fortune and, not surprisingly, people were not interested, seeing as how the tapes are worthless except for the "cool factor." He had a lot of rock stuff too. Of the film music, the tapes are basically dub-downs of little importance except for the Star Wars 2" 16-track masters which contain the edited "selects" Williams and Ken Wannberg chose—I remember when they did the Star Wars Special Edition CDs, they had the 16-track masters, but all of these master takes from the original album had been snipped out! So that's where they went, making those 16-tracks are highly important. Now, the good news: at that Star Wars con was Matthew Wood, a sound editor for Lucasfilm (voice of General Grievous, I think?) and he and I were like, WTF?! I am quite sure he subsequently coordinated to have the 16-tracks digitized at Lucasfilm (in exchange for a tour or something for Melson)...whatever. I think it's all OK, so people should RELAX."

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=101432&forumID=1&archive=0

Ryan McAvoy said:

^ ESB. Matte painting done later of the same base (The 80s equivalant of CGI). Looks 1000 times less convincing, which is why Adywan has reshot this one.

It did however look much more convincing in the original ESB. The reason why it look so fake in the SE is because the shot contains a wipe that was redone in order to avoid the generation loss and grain build up seen in the original film - stuff that did make wonders for matte paintings such as this. 

In addition the shot was brightened, making it even less convincing. And lastly in 2004 it was further degrained. You were never supposed to see it that clear. Many other shots have this same problem in the SE. It's what happens when you're dickin' around with classics.

Just to clarify in case there's any confusion about that Skywalker Sound letter included in the auction, the missing 16-track Music Master tapes (which were used for the '97 album of Star Wars) Lucasfilm were trying to locate back in 2007 is not the master tapes in this auction. That said, I really hope these end up in the right hands.

But you still have to wonder how the hell those 16-track master tapes were lost after they worked with them in '97.

John Neal passed away in 2009 btw.

That's fantastic, D_M! :)

Kinda disturbing that they were in the process of locating the music masters of Star Wars as late as 2007, shouldn't Lucasfilm/Skywalker Sound have these important stuff in order, I mean they used them for the RCA '97 album. Were they stolen by someone after that or what? sigh...

team_negative1 said:

The tear above the windshield is gone, but will probably be put back in

It's not a tear, most likely dirt immortalized by being built into the optical wipe. Why are you guys considering to put this particular anomaly back in when you seem to getting rid of every other dirt spots in the film? Or do you plan to re-insert the "black rain" into the saber scenes aboard the Falcon and the speeder pass-by shot as well?

team_negative1 said:

There is a boom mike visible for several frames, this will be cropped out

Yeah, that should fall outside a theatrical framing of 2.39:1, which reminds me, why spending time cleaning up all those splices demonstrated on the last page when it will never be seen anyway if you crop the frames correctly? Seems like a lot of unnecessary work to me. Sure, many of the splices needs attention but still...

Tack said:

"This is ridiculous…"

Yeah, I can certainly understand that this may seem "ridiculous" to most people but I personally find it quite fascinating. It's about ILM'ers still working on the film when prints were already being struck in order to improve on what first came out of the optical printer.

These visual effects artists didn't have the luxury seeing how the shot came out until it was done, they basically had to hope for the best. If there happened to be a mistake in the compositing then they had to live with it or just start from scratch.

While the revisions on the films audio presentation has been well documented over the years, these subtle last minute visual revisions have gone undocumented, no mention in any behind the scenes interviews or books as far as I know, so I think it's nice trying to document them. In this case it's not about Lucas being his usual tinkering self either, subtle revisions on films during their theatrical run wasn't something unique for Star Wars.

Darth Mallwalker said:

50500


50600


50700

Interesting, it definitely looks like different compositing in the GOUT with the rolling bars not in sync with the JSC LD. Could it be the result of the DVNR that is fooling us perhaps? The SWE (Technidisc) that otherwise always match GOUT, match the JSC LD in this case. Will check other sources...

Video Collector said:

Yeah, we used to call this the "Herringbone Pattern" back in the day. You'd get it on some discs. It's a manufacturing fault in the actual disc, and was always grounds for an exchange. Sometimes you'd have to go through a couple of exchanges before you got a good copy.

That being said, a Laserdisc player with a misaligned laser would display this fault even on good discs...

Yes, I think it's alright as I haven't noticed it on any other discs but I just wanted to be extra sure. The "Herringbone Pattern" makes a lot of sense as that's very much what it looks like.

poita said:

If they are using a homemade scanner then the most likely reason is that their light source is not spectrally matched to their sensor (camera).

Thanks for the very in-depth explanation, although most of it went over my head I get the general idea.

poita said:

As to the print you saw, I would put a reasonable amount of money that the scene was indeed pink tinted, but you would be unlikely to conscioulsy notice it unless you were looking for it directly. It doesn't stand out unless you are looking specifically for it, and it is highly dependant on what your eyes have been seeing just before it (I really wish you could get another look at the print to confirm one way or the other though.)

Yeah, you're probably right. I might get another opportunity this summer. It was truly a surreal experience to get a chance seeing a SW-print projected again after all these years. Even if the print was incomplete and we had to watch it without audio, it was fantastic. :)

Oops, forgot this flash-frame:

GOUT-Frame 77610:

It's important this stuff... ;) (updated the first page) Still wondering if this could possibly be 1977 North American vs. International print differences...

poita said:

Absolutely, if anything it is slightly more pink than the images I have shown.

I have seen 9 different prints now all up, as well as countless Super8 prints which were taken from the international negative and all of them are pretty close to the image I posted here. Some are a little lighter, some a little darker, but all have a definite pinkish sky in this shot. (The only ones that don't are the dodgy 16mm dupe prints, most of the colour casts in scenes are washed away in those prints)

Reproductions in magazines and books will nearly always be balanced out by the pagesetter and appear without the colour-cast, they would most likely assume it was an unwanted artefact and adjust it out. Try taklng the image into photoshop and applying autocolor and you will get a nice dull neutral sky, which looks more natural, but is less striking. I have found on set photographs and books to be a useless source for colour, as it doesn't take into account the on-set lighting, any filters used, the final colour grade or the film stock.

The reddish tones appear to be intended, quite possibly to add to the menace and colour temperature to accompany the 'burning' of Luke's family, and adding to the 'hellishness' of the imagery with the skeletal remains.

But for whatever reason, the sky was pinky-red in 1977 when Luke's Aunt and Uncle breathed their last.

Sorry, I should have been more clear, prints was typed print sources, I'm well aware of that printed source material found in magazines, books and such are pretty much useless.

No, I'm surprised because I was lucky enough being able to see a beautiful albeit incomplete LPP projected last summer (reel 4 and 6 was missing unfortunately.) And being the obsessive SW-freak I am, I made sure to take great notice of anything unexpected in terms of the films timing, and this particular shot in that print didn't stand out to me as being graded any differently compared to any other overcast Tatooine daylight sequences. I'd say its look was very consistent with some of the opening desert scenes with the droids as well as those overcast shots in the droid sale at the farm. Warm, yellow, beige or brown with light gray skies is the way I would describe it.

So I'm not entirely convinced that this shot was timed to set a certain mood, if anything it should have been timed colder if that was the case I think, in order to contrast it with the otherwise warm desert scenes. But when you say that you have seen the same thing in nine different prints! I'm sure you know what you're talking about. And of course I trust you, you're sitting with prints right in front of you. :) Anyway, the amounts of pink in that panning shot there doesn't sit right with me but I guess I'll have to unlearn what I have learned. ;) Memories are memories...

In any case, this is awesome, poita! Had succeeded to somehow miss this thread earlier. We need to set up some way to donate.

That -1 print scan looks way too cold, why is that?

Moth3r said:

Do we need to get Jay to introduce a neutral D65 grey colour scheme for the forum?

That wouldn't be such a bad idea with all the color timing samples posted around here actually. :)

I'm surprised by the amount of pink in those homestead shots, is that the case on both this low fade print and Tech print of yours, poita? In all the print sources I've seen the sky has always been more light gray, even the smoke is pink in that panning shot. Interesting.

Thanks for confirming! Just to make sure you guys know exactly what "crosstalk" I'm referring to:

See the sky. Apparently a mastering defect which causes the laser pickup to read a signal from the adjacent pit track that interferes with the signal from the main track as I've seen it described. Was able to get rid of it with the multi-cap median script. But I'm still not ruling out a faulty player until I'm sure you guys see the same thing. Thanks.

Another reason for revisiting the Yavin temple matte shot other than those blue streaks may have been the slightly awkward framing (can clearly be seen when you match the cropping of the JSC with the GOUT in the adjacent footage.)

Another print variation can be seen in reel 3 - in the shot where the Stardestroyer is chasing the Falcon before it goes into lightspeed. Special Collection LD at the top and the 2006 Bonus Feature DVD (GOUT) at the bottom. I guess a Pan & Scan source would have been better to showcase the differences but I don't have one at hand at the moment.

GOUT-Frame 77593:

In the Special Collection print there are several of these crude marks which appears to be intended for laser impacts, they are absent in the GOUT print. You could almost mistake them for dirt.

GOUT-Frame 77604:

The left laserbolt are drawn all the way to the end of the screen in the Special Collection print, in the GOUT it disappears behind the ship.

GOUT-Frame 77607:

As you can see there is a clearly defined matteline where the laserbolt meets the Destroyer in the GOUT print. The laser fire throughout the sequence have been changed so that it appears to come from above or straight from the front of the ship instead. Or more accurately described, the Destroyer was layered on top of the laserbolts instead of vice versa.

The timing and intensity of the flash frames differs, the flash frames are quite muted in the Special Collection print where the ship is still visible whereas in the GOUT print there's a solid white one in all cases except one.

GOUT-Frame 77594:

GOUT-Frame 77601:

GOUT-Frame 77614:

GOUT-Frame 77615:

GOUT-Frame 77640:

GOUT-Frame 77641:

GOUT-Frame 77649:

The variation of this shot seen in the Special Collection print was also used in the infamous Holiday Special. I've only checked Moth3r's 35mm bootleg so far but I'm pretty sure the same pattern follows as for the previous differences. For those who don't have access to the SC LD, here's a short video only sample of the sequence: http://www.sendspace.com/file/5jk2oa I don't know, I kinda like this one better in some way, I miss those crude impact-marks in the other. Haven't checked yet if the audio mixes appears to match one of them better or not with all the impacts in this scene.

AntcuFaalb said:

Before I take a guess, question: Does your player show crosstalk on other CLV titles?

No, not what I have noticed. The level of chroma noise is also a lot worse than on other CLV titles that I own and especially CAV titles. I guess the player could need an adjustment, it's also possible other players are better to deal with the crosstalk if it is indeed present in this pressing. That's why I'm curious if you guys had noticed it on your copies.

NeverarGreat said:

Incidentally, something I noticed after watching this particular clip a million times was that the Death Star stops rotating before the end of the shot. I guess the special effects guys were just like "Eh, that's probably good enough".

Yeah, it's another one of those Special Edition trademarks, introducing a flaw that wasn't there in the original special effect. :) The result by extending the shot with a few frames.

This thread is awesome! :) "Save us Poita, you are our only hope."

Sorry for the radio silence and endless delays, and thanks for your interest! It's not abandoned, a few things have prevented me from uploading it which I need to get in order before I am able to.

Thanks for the suggestion Dave88.

@ poita: Yes, I tried both an average and a multi-cap median and found the latter was much more successfull gettin rid of the crosstalk - "mastering defect" (which I'm still not entirely sure about is a mastering flaw or if it's due to a faulty player.) Please confirm, AntcuFaalb or Mallwalker. I think I even tried average the median.

NeverarGreat, that's much better, looking great! :) Is this pink or purple cast something that is present throughout this shot in the blu-ray? How does your correction affect the TIE's and Death Star for example. In the original film you could often see the color timing change mid-wipe. With all wipes and dissolves redone in '97, I assume this is no longer the case. But I'm curious how regrading shots like this affects the timing of the CGI in that transition.

A little late but I managed to find a better resolution copy of the swedish '77 poster: http://i.imgur.com/qG5JUX1.jpg

Another anomaly in the ANH Special Collection telecine is a missing frame when the Falcon is coming out of lightspeed in the beginning of reel 4 - "Cut in the sublight engines." One of the frames gets repeated replacing another one. More specifically, see the dirt on Han Solo's sleeve when he is turning the switches.

Seem to be connected with this old campaign:  http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2000/05/36040 in some very weird twisted twilight zone way... ;)

@ timdiggerm Yeah, I got all that. I'm sorry for my stupid and grumpy response, had just received some bad news when I posted. Not an excuse I know.

@ NeverarGreat That's nice to hear, it just seemed to me from your earlier remarks on the first page, that wasn't the case. I'm glad I was wrong. :) The reason I called those photos dubious is because they cannot be used as a blueprint from the simple fact they're photos taken by a camera in theatre, they don't show the true contrast and often displays a pink tint. They are very nice and can of course be used as a general guidance. But when you're starting to apply a pink tint on a shot like that burning homestead sequence, I believe you're doing your project a big disservice. It's of course possible that particular print had a pink tint in certain scenes but as we perfectly know how certain things should look in Star Wars (stormtrooper armor is white) just use common sense for shots like that instead. Just my suggestion.

@ Feallan Not a stupid question, I've pointed out the same thing in the past. I admit I haven't studied them and compared but I'm pretty sure those are 35mm film cells and not 70mm ones. Here's an authentic 70mm frame to demonstrate the amount of picture information:

Btw, what the heck is up with the forum lately? Cannot edit my posts like I used to. Anyone experienced the same problem?